Suspect np: SS NFE Suspect, Round 1 - Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger - Voter ID & Information

[Jett]

Approved by The Immortal

Hey friends, the SS NFE Council have decided to test the Dynamax mechanic.​

Suspect Test Reasoning:
Dynamax is the latest mechanic introduced and is by far the most controversial one yet. Dynamaxing a Pokemon last for three turns, immediately doubling their current HP and granting them powerful Max Moves, which, for the most part, are not only stronger than the base moves but also have great secondary effects, such as raising stats and setting terrain. Dynamaxed Pokemon are also immune to being flinched, being phased out, fainting to Destiny Bond, all weight related moves, the effects of Encore, the effects of Disable, and the move lock from Choiced items (although the boosts from the items disappear while Dynamaxed).

Over the past three weeks, Dynamax has been at the forefront of the metagame and been very centralising. Due to the fact any Pokemon can Dynamax, it makes Dynamaxing very unpredictable and difficult to deal with, putting a great strain on teambuilding and almost mandating the usage of certain defensive Pokemon. There are also an extremely high amount of Pokemon which can often utilize Dynamax, in one way or another. This has meant that there are more than just a handful of abusers, which would need to be suspected. Here are the most notable examples:

Setup Sweepers:

• Rufflet (Rufflet cannot miss with Dynamax and Max Airstream makes up for its lack of Speed.)
• Galarian Mr Mime (Galarian Mr Mime is relatively frail but Dynamax makes it difficult to revenge kill due to setting up Psychic Terrain after using Max Mindstorm.)
• Klang (Dynamax increases Klang’s already solid bulk and can turn into a nasty physically defensive wall as well, thanks to Max Steelspike)
• Gurdurr (Dynamax makes Gurdurr even bulkier than it is allowing it to easily muscle through opposing Pokemon after a Bulk Up or two.)
• Drakloak (With an already solid Speed stat, the combination of Dragon Dance and Dynamax make it a significant offensive threat, which is difficult to manage and almost impossible to revenge kill.)
• Galarian Farfetch’d (Galarian Farfetch’d mediocre Speed is fixed with Max Airstream as well as being harder to revenge kill once it’s setup)
• Fraxure (Whilst slower and more powerful than Drakloak, it functions very similarly as a sweeper. Dynamax fixes Fraxure’s average bulk issues and makes it a more reliable Dragon Dance sweeper.)

Weather Based Sweepers:

• Gloom (Gloom sets up with Growth and with Dynamax break through teams with ease with a spammable 140 BP Max Overgrowth under Sun.)
• Palpitoad (Dynamax allows Palpitoad to set up rain with Max Geyser which synergises especially well with its ability Swift Swim. This overcomes the problem of Palpitoad’s mediocre Speed and allows it to use its wide coverage to its fullest potential.)

Choice Item Users:

• Haunter (Choice Scarf is very versatile and allows Haunter to act as both a revenge killer and a late game sweeper due to Max Ooze boosting its Special Attack stat.)
• Sneasel (With Dynamax, Sneasel becomes one of the more reliable revenge killers while also able to gain boosts from a Max Knuckle to be an effective cleaner. Sneasel also has the option to run a Swords Dance set and Dynamax makes it harder for Sneasel to revenge killed by super effective priority moves, despite being relatively frail.)

Bulky Attackers:

• Machoke (Dynamax allows Machoke to eat hits even better and along with Guts, Knock Off and Earthquake allows it to deal with the most common Dynamax blanket checks in Galarian Corsola and Mareanie.
• Piloswine (With base 100 HP and 100 Attack, Dynamax synergises extremely well with Piloswine as its able to throw out empowered unresisted dual STABs whilst also being extremely bulky.)

Dynamaxing one of the aforementioned threats, however, does not necessarily result in an autowin occuring. Galarian Corsola or Mareanie can be found on the majority of teams as a response to all the Dynamaxed setup sweepers as they both carry Haze. Other ways to counteract Dynamax is to Dynamax a Pokemon to tank a hit and fire back, using Dynamax on a revenge killer or switching into a bulky Pokemon, which is able to resist or is immune to the opposing Pokemon’s attacks. Dynamaxed Pokemon are by no means unwallable with bulkier Pokemon normally able to respond against the common offensive usage of Dynamax.

Dynamax is also the main mechanic of this generation and it should be considered whether deviating from the main games by this degree is worth doing. Whilst we will not be focusing on this aspect in much depth in this thread, be aware that voting to ban Dynamax would remove a core aspect from the metagame.

Overall, Dynamax has been a hot topic since the start of Generation 8 and impact on the metagame cannot be understated. Dynamax contains various amazing aspects and banning it may result in healthier meta to develop. Dynamax’s effect on both teambuilding and in-battle is why the Council deems the mechanic suspect-worthy.

Suspect Test Information:
The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 35 games played.
For this suspect test, a new account starting with NFED, such as “NFED Crystalites” must be used to qualify, as we will be using the NFE Ladder. The suspect will end in around 2 weeks time, on the 21st December 11:59pm EST, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

The suspect will now end on the 26th December 11:59pm EST. Reasoning can be found in this post.

This thread will also be used for posting your voter identification screenshot. Make sure when doing this, you show your alt has met these requirements, as well as proof that the alt belongs to you. When uploading large images, please use a HIDE tag.

 [HIDE] [/HIDE]

It is encouraged that you to write a short paragraph outlining your thoughts on Dynamax with this screenshot, although this is optional.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts, unless it is posting that you’ve met the requirements for voting on Dynamax.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process
3. Be respectful
Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

If you have any questions about this suspect, please ask vooper or Crystalites . Have fun laddering!

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

First post, fourth try:

Hide

https://imgur.com/a/LsOhG7p

Ban Mime and Ruff not Dyna yet. My reasonings is here and in this thread you will find a lot of other support for the Mime and Ruff ban first before Dyna.

For those who are new to the tier, Dyna is not exactly comparable to OU because NFE is a very limited meta in comparison. It very well could be that all NFE needs to be a balanced, fair meta is to ban the two big bad abusers of Dyna, and then the meta could settle down. The only way to know for certain that it is in fact Dyna that is broken is to first ban the abusers, then see if there's anything that replaces them in the new meta that is just as broken. If that happens, then sure, ban Dyna, but right now it is way too early in the generation to ban its integral mechanic.

I will say though I am open minded enough to plausibly change sides if anyone proves the exigence of a Dyna ban right now.

Edit: Looking for teams? I gotchu (click on sprites for pokepaste)

Double Ghost

Description

This team takes advantage of the centralization around Psychic/Fighting/Dark/Ghost mons that the meta is filled with by being almost completely comprised of mons with these types. This spam will help nail the relevant walls of the tier while still having a ton of offensive power. Scarf Haunter is a good precedent for speed control and enjoys the extra Psychic coverage for coming in and punishing Machoke/Gurdur. Mime should be on almost every NFE team, as its offensive Rapid Spin support and great coverage means only some walls like Corse can really stomach it. Machoke is another almost must have as it tanks everything while having Knock and CC coverage to help deal with opposing Ferros, Pilos, Pawns, ect. CB Linoone is great for a strong Knock Off and Ghost immunity, and when paired with Steel types means opposing Haunters have a tough time choosing a move. Ferro is a great lead and provides both rocks and Knock support early on, and the start of the show is Honedge. It is a great Rufflet/Klang check while also being an awesome Dyna sweeper and has a strong SE Shadow Sneak for a ton of faster mons like Haunter/Mime/Drakloak. Sneasel and Linoone are immune to it but with its great phs def it can actually trade hits well and 1HKO with CC. Play this team as an HO that finds a way to preserve and capitalize on a Dyna sweep with legit anything here but Ferro.

NFE Semi-Sun

Description

Drought isn't banned in NFE and the best abuser of sun is Gloom. Gloom has decent Evio bulk and Growth to double its SpA, and with Sleep Powder it can get off sweeps and boost with further with its Dyna dual stabs. It has to worry about the opposing Ferro/Rose, as those two (especially ferro) can wall and outstall sun and Dyna. Vulpix is pretty worthless but at least it threatens bulky Grasses for Gloom while potentially burning some mons and being a good sack. Palp is a good rocker and Klang check (watch for RestTalk sets) that can hurt Mare with EP and Cors with Toxic. Pawn provides some Sucker support for faster threats and is another Dark/Knock resist that has Brick Break for other Darks and for the +1 Atk if you Dyna with it. Mime and Machoke are there for speed and spin / buk and Knock, respectively.

 

[Felucia]

Hello there! Now that we've gotten to a suspect test I decided I'd go out there and write a post outlining my problems with the "Ban Dynamax" movement. I'll be highlighting as many points as I can that were brought to the table by the ban dyna party, and I'll try my best to explain why I do or don't disagree with them (yes you heard me correctly, I agree with some points made).

1. Important note
Before I get started on this whole thing I want to note that for the purpose of this post I will be assuming Rufflet and Galar Mr. Mime need to be banned. This is a popular opinion among the community where both pro-ban and anti-ban think they should be banned if Dynamax stays in the NFE metagame. Because of this, any argument for banning Dynamax that revolves primarily around those two pokemon will be taken as an argument that these pokemon are broken instead.

2. A few things we should all be able to agree on.
I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone that Dynamax was never the primary course of action and was never supposed to be the primary course of action. As is natural at the start of a new generation, the introduction of a new mechanic does not and should not warrant a ban on the mechanic, but rather on the pokemon that are problematic because of it. Then, when a convincing and valid argument is made that Dynamax creates many broken pokemon or limits diversity to an unhealthy degree, that's when you start shifting towards the "maybe it's better to ban Dynamax instead". I believe both NFE's community and council have been too quick to dismiss the (in my opinion) most reasonable option of trying to ban pokemon before banning the mechanic.

3. Why it matters
At this point you're probably wondering why any of what I'm saying even matters. The main reason I've said what I've said so far is to illustrate that if you want to ban Dynamax, but you cannot rationally justify it over the pokemon that use it, then you should be reconsidering your stance in this argument. And I'm not saying my definition of a rational justification is the only correct one, that's something for yourselves to decide, I'm just here trying to make you think twice about whatever decision you make to make sure it's the best one for the future of our metagame.

4. Things I've seen in discussions
So now that I'm finally getting to some kind of point, I'm going to start with going over things I've seen people say (in the council, on the NFE metagame thread, or in the NFE chatroom) that struck me as particularly noteworthy. I'll try to keep NFE room mentions to a minimum as I don't think you can be held accountable for the quality of arguments you make there.

Pro Dyna doesn't have any arguments is something I've heard an enormous amount of, usually followed by "I can't be bothered to point out all the errors in the posts but they're terrible". Like I said in point 2, accountability for the dynamax issue should be with the pro ban side of the argument, as any accountability for arguments should always be with the ones trying to change the status quo. Pro dyna has been mostly occupied with attempting to find alternative routes to dealing with dynamax and trying to explain why some of the arguments made by ban dynamax don't hold up. In fact that's all there is to do and also what I'm doing right now. The way to get change is by proving why we need change, but the way to stop change isn't proving why we need to stay the same, it's proving why we don't need change.

Don't ban abusers because if we ban one another will be broken or "banning abusers won't solve anything" are two common phrases used to dismiss the thought of banning any broken pokemon. These are statements that need support from facts and arguments to be proven as true or false, they do not have any inherent value of truth to them that allows them to be used in discussions without support.

Dynamax is broken because [pokemon] is good now is something I saw a while ago in the room regarding Woobat specifically, and I feel the need to explain why this way of thinking is inherently flawed at least to some extent. The key thing to consider here is that if a Pokémon you considered bad in past generations is good now, this is not a bad thing. Between generations, Pokémon rise and fall, mechanics change and metagames develop, this is a natural thing and not something you can fault any Pokémon or mechanic for. Just because a Pokémon used to be mediocre and is now good does not mean that whatever tool it uses to be good is broken.

Dynamax is dumb with Eviolite prove this one to me. This isn't an argument, it's a statement that stands or falls with the arguments and proof supporting it. You say "It's harder to revenge kill evio Dyna because they're so bulky" I say "It's harder for Dyna to get kills because everything is so bulky". Your move. Also if Eviolite is a core problem of the NFE metagame right now, following protocol we should be banning Eviolite and not Dynamax, because a single item is valued below an entire mechanic.

You can't prepare for every dynamaxed pokemon! Textbook abuser problem. A few Pokémon mandate usage to a point where you cannot sufficiently prepare for them without losing out on matchups. As I will highlight later on in this post, it's usually not necessary to prepare for every "Dynamaxed" Pokémon.

OU and LC banned dynamax. You knew I'd get to this so I'm going to keep this one relatively short. Yes, OU and LC banned Dynamax, and yes they had good reasons for it. But this is NFE, we have to think for ourselves. I don't mind you taking inspiration from OU and LC to form your opinion, but don't point towards the OU discussion thread and say "look they had good arguments". Also, just because OU deviated from the standards of preferring to ban pokemon before anything else, doesn't mean those standards are immediately invalid. They still should apply to every ban from a policy standpoint including the NFE Dynamax suspect.

5. Your attention span
You don't have an attention span, you don't like reading posts. Me neither! It's time for a small break. Please look at the following image for 15 seconds.

Hide

Wasn't that cute? Now we can move on while feeling all revitalized and stuff!

6. There are too many abusers
Something to consider when talking about Dynamax and its abusers is the question "Do these Pokémon abuse Dynamax". In relation to what makes for a textbook broken Pokémon, you need to ask yourself if Dynamax is at fault or if it's the abuser. And no this is not another vague "there aren't enough broken Pokémon to justify banning Dynamax", I'll use Klang as an in-depth example to illustrate what I mean, and then move on to talk about pretty much every Pokémon I've seen talked about in relation to Dynamax, and see how well they manage to support the argument of banning Dynamax.

Klang

Before talking about Klang I want to establish the "standard" Klang set. I know you can deviate from the standard but it's safe to say the average Klang will be running the average EVs and the average moves.
According to usage stats: Careful:252/0/0/0/140/116 20.416%

 | Moves                                  |
| Gear Grind 87.256%                     |
| Shift Gear 86.086%                     |
| Wild Charge 51.886%                    |
| Substitute 42.393%                     |
| Rest 33.030%                           |
| Sleep Talk 30.689%                     |

After this the moves go into Power Gem and Steel Beam territory. So let's pretend these are the only moves that matter. The only moves that are impactful for Dynamaxed Klang are Gear Grind, Shift Gear and Wild Charge, so let's stick to those as well.

top usage

Mr. Mime-Galar
Corsola-Galar
Haunter
Gurdurr
Linoone-Galar
Machoke
Piloswine
Drakloak
Morgrem
Klang
Rufflet
Carkol
Raboot
Mareanie
Roselia
Ferroseed
Fraxure
Farfetch'd-Galar
Hattrem
Sneasel
Pikachu
Pawniard
Thwackey
Clefairy
Duosion
Dusclops
Togetic
Zweilous
Drilbur
Palpitoad
Dottler
Vullaby
Corvisquire
Charjabug
Cutiefly
Shellos
Trapinch
Charmeleon
Boldore
Gloom
Lampent
Sliggoo
Sinistea
Hakamo-o
Diglett
Darumaka-Galar
Pupitar
Cufant
Drizzile
Honedge

Now I'm gonna be that one person you all can't stand and write down which of these check/counter Klang.

• Checks: Corsola-Galar, Gurdurr, Machoke, Carkol, Raboot, Farfetch'd Galar, Pikachu, Dusclops, Vullaby, Charjabug, Charmeleon, Lampent, Hakamo-o, Honedge
• Counters: Mareanie, Ferroseed, Palpitoad

now let's have a look at what this list looks like when Klang Dynamaxes in the face of these Pokémon. For convenience we assume that the Pokémon was directly switched into Klang when it used Shift Gear the first time, and is at full HP. There's tons of different variables in a battle but not many of them change the way these checks behave in front of Klang.

• Checks: Corsola-Galar, Gurdurr, Mareanie, Machoke, Carkol, Raboot, Farfetch'd Galar, Dusclops, Charjabug, Charmeleon, Lampent, Hakamo-o
• Counters: Ferroseed, Palpitoad

At least on Klang, this means big bad daddy dynamax doesn't have a significant impact on viability. If Klang is a broken dynamax abuser it's because Klang is inherently broken, and if your team gets swept by Klang you need to reconsider your composition. Similarly, if you make the argument that Dynamax removes skillful play because it allows Klang to sweep after you lost your check, I want to remind you that recognizing that losing your Klang checks is not a good idea is also part of skillful play.

Ok we're temporarily coming out of hiding to categorize "pokemon broken with dynamax" into three categories. The first is Pokémon that aren't even close to being broken at all, the second is Pokémon that don't get a viability boost from Dynamaxing (or not a significant enough viability boost to consider them broken just because they clicked a max button), and I already forgot the third so I'm sure it wasn't important.

• 1. Gloom, Palpitoad, Sneasel, Piloswine*, Corsola-Galar
• 2. Klang, Gurdurr**, Drakloak, Fraxure, Machoke**, Pawniard
• 3. Rufflet, Galarian Mr. Mime, Haunter

* Piloswine, contrary to what's mentioned in the suspect post, rarely dynamaxes offensively aside from a last resort option.
** I recognize that removing checks to Gurdurr and Machoke (Ruff and Mime) is going to impact their viability, but with those checks gone, there's also more room for a few niche checks that currently serve as Ruff/Mime setup bait.

Category 1: The minor issues

Despite having the ability to gain a weather bonus, Palpitoad and Gloom are massively held back by mediocre stats and difficult offensive typing. With Steel- and Dragon-types being significant in the NFE metagame, as well as the occasional Roselia running around, Gloom and Palpitoad are easily stalled out of their Dynamax while having accomplished virtually nothing. If you want me to argue in depth about these pokemon being nonissues I am prepared to do so, but I feel like just this short paragraph suffices.

Sneasel is another Pokémon that can get its Dynamax stalled by top steel types or some of the most prevalent defensive Pokémon such as Mareanie or Shellos (both take about 65% from a +2 Max Darkness and use Haze or Clear Smog to stop Sneasel, though admittedly you'll have to usually sacrifice your Shellos in the process. Defensive Piloswine also takes like 50% damage from a +2 Max Darkness, and can safely pull off a defensive Dynamax to force Sneasel out or just eat hits until dynamax ends). Not to say Sneasel cannot win games, with or without dynamax. But neither its regular set nor its dynamax form warps teambuilding to a point where general viable teams will be unable to deal with it.

Piloswine doesn't have the tools to abuse Dynamax' stat boosts, nor does it have the greatest offensive typing. Because of this, you'll normally see Piloswine dynamax defensively to stop a sweeper in its tracks (haunter is a good one to max on, assuming they don't switch out because Pilo is a natural haunter check), and even when that happens it usually doesn't result in more than one casualty and a predicted dynamax from Pilo can easily lead to you having wasted your max. Again, Piloswine does use Dynamax as a tool, but it's a rare occasion and does not significantly warp teambuilding or create so-called unfair situations in battle.

Lastly, I had doubts if I even needed to include Corsola because it has nothing to do with Dynamax at all, but it's a pokemon that was mentioned in the thread and I said I'd go over every pokemon so... Corsola... Good defensive answer to dynamax, able to stall out a lot of maxed mons, especially physical sweepers that can't hit it super-effectively. Substitute going away after Dynamaxing makes it easier for Corsola to click Strength Sap and Will-O-Wisp on whatever stands in its path.

I know your attention span is reaching its limits again

Category 2: Dynamax doesn't make me stronger

Klang has been done

Machoke

Note: A lot of Machoke's checks are inconsistent regardless of its Dynamax status.
No max Machoke

• Checks: Corsola-Galar, Haunter, Gurdurr, Drakloak, Morgrem, Rufflet, Roselia, Fraxure, Thwackey, Hattrem, Gloom
• Counters: Mr Mime Galar, Mareanie, Clefairy*, Togetic*, Shellos**

* Clefairy and Togetic aren't counters if Machoke runs certain moves, however said moves are less than 8% in usage.
** Shellos can get unlucky getting a scald burn against the wrong set, but is consistent otherwise
After maxing

• Checks: Mr Mime Galar, Corsola-Galar, Gurdurr, Morgrem, Rufflet, Fraxure, Thwackey, Hattrem, Gloom
• Counters: Mareanie, Clefairy*, Togetic*, Shellos**

Note 2: Mime is moved to checks from counters because I've assumed using dynamax to beat dynamax is considered "cheating", however it's worth noting that this is completely fair and valid counterplay.

Machoke's counterplay is overall limited and inconsistent, I'm sure many of you reading this are aware that half of the checks I wrote down are inconsistent or only check specific sets with specific sets. I wouldn't be opposed to throwing Machoke on the pile of banworthy mons, but that's an opinion I hold regardless of Dynamax.

Drakloak

This one's hard to analyze because there's a lot of viable moves and all of them beat different things

 | U-turn 52.874%                         | 
 | Outrage 52.665%                        | 
 | Phantom Force 46.604%                  | 
 | Dragon Dance 46.082%                   | 
 | Shadow Ball 31.766%                    | 
 | Psychic Fangs 28.213%                  | 
 | Draco Meteor 21.944%                   | 
 | Fire Blast 19.645%                     | 
 | Sucker Punch 19.122%                   | 
 | Flamethrower 16.196%                   | 
 | Thunderbolt 14.629%                    |

I'll assume all those moves are used to some degree, but for the main checks and counters I intend to follow the set Cheryl. posted on the main thread with U-Turn added (6 moves is fine right)

Drakloak @ Eviolite / Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Phantom Force 
- Steel Wing
- U-Turn

c/c without Dyna

• Checks: Haunter*, Gurdurr, Piloswine, Morgrem, Klang, Sneasel, Clefairy, Togetic, Vullaby, Honedge
• Counters: Mareanie

* Haunter must be scarf and Drakloak cannot have ddanced yet.
c/c after Dynamaxing

• Checks: Haunter*, Gurdurr, Piloswine, Morgrem, Klang, Sneasel, Clefairy, Togetic, Vullaby
• Counters: Mareanie

Fraxure

 | Dragon Dance 88.555%                   | 
 | Outrage 72.045%                        | 
 | Stomping Tantrum 46.717%               | 
 | Poison Jab 40.901%                     | 
 | First Impression 32.833%               | 
 | Superpower 32.083%                     |

First Impression is not a move.
pre-dyna c&c

• Checks: Gurdurr, Linoone-Galar, Machoke, Piloswine, Morgrem, Mareanie, Ferroseed, Sneasel, Clefairy, Togetic, Shellos, Gloom
• Counters: Corsola-Galar

post-dyna c&c

• Checks: Gurdurr, Linoone-Galar, Machoke, Piloswine, Mareanie, Shellos, Gloom
• Counters: Corsola-Galar

This one requires some explanation because checking Fraxure isn't a simple process, although there are very few consistent checks to it, there's a lot of things that can chip it, take a hit, haze it, strength sap it, paralyze it, burn it, or parting shot it. Checking Fraxure is a process and not a simple switch, and honestly I think a case for it being broken can be made. For now we're just going with I underestimated the power Dynamax gives to Fraxure, and I don't mind adding it to the pile of mons to be banned (making it the second dyna related ban, together with Rufflet)

Gurdurr

pre-dyna c&c

• Checks: Mr. Mime-Galar, Haunter, Morgrem, Rufflet, Mareanie*, Farfetch'd-Galar, Hattrem, Clefairy, Duosion, Togetic, Vullaby, Shellos*, Gloom, Honedge
• Counters: Corsola-Galar*

* Generally lose to taunt Gurdurr
post-dyna c&c

• Checks: Mr. Mime-Galar, Morgrem, Rufflet, Mareanie*, Farfetch'd-Galar, Hattrem, Clefairy, Duosion, Togetic, Vullaby, Shellos*, Gloom, Honedge
• Counters: Corsola-Galar*

Some of these checks are move dependent, but overall this list usually holds up or at least doesn't get significantly cut.

The top of the top

Going to keep this kinda short, these mons are pretty universally known for being really good mons

Mime

Before Dyna

• Checks: Corsola-Galar, Haunter*, Linoone-Galar, Piloswine, Drakloak, Morgrem, Ferroseed, Shellos, Honedge
• Counters: Sneasel, Klang

* Scarf Haunter vs Non-Scarf Mime
After Dyna

• Checks: Corsola-Galar, Linoone-Galar, Drakloak, Shellos, Honedge, Klang
• Counters: Sneasel

Rufflet

Before Dyna

• Checks: Mr. Mime Galar, Corsola Galar, Haunter, Linoone Galar, Piloswine, Drakloak, Morgrem, Klang, Sneasel, Pikachu, Dusclops, Togetic, Shellos, Boldore, Darumaka-Galar, Pupitar, Cufant, Drizzile
• Counters: Honedge

After Dyna

• Checks: Corsola Galar, Sneasel, Honedge
• Counters:

I don't know my Rufflet matchups and I'm tired, don't quote me on this one

7. In conclusion
I don't think banning dynamax now is the way to go, the NFE thread has 3 people who didn't say "ban rufflet and mime first", but this suspect test is happening and we just have to vote what we think is best. I will say that I don't know how the rest of council feels, but I'm open to re-suspecting Dynamax in the future if it does not get banned. If not banning it now, getting rid of broken mons, and then suspecting it again to ban it is the best road for the metagame then so be it. If banning it now is deemed the appropriate choice then so be it. If it doesn't get banned at all then so be it. In the end we'll all find a way to make an enjoyable NFE metagame happen no matter what

 

[SCBLOL26]

Shoutouts quags for the teams, ice beam corsola is so fire n_n. Also, on the topic of dynamaxing, I will say it's the least over centralizing in NFE comparatively to the other tiers. Despite that, I still lean toward ban atm. There are a number of reasons for this, but some of the main ones off the top of my head are:
1. The difficulty of revenge killing eviolite mons while they are dynamaxed.
2. Not having a pre determined dynamax pokemon. Yes some mons abuse it harder than others so it can usually be easy to tell who's gonna max, but there's nothing stopping your opponent from just maxing another mon and shutting down your gameplan.
3. Unlike OU, there is no ditto in NFE, so having counterplay for a dynamax sweeper after they set up can be very difficult. You can play a game perfectly, but position yourself wrong in just 1 case and throw the entire game. Obviously this is possible without dynamax, but with the mechanic it happens more often.
Regardless, I do want to hear what others think. Dynamaxing is a very interesting mechanic so having a discussion rather than just out right banning it should be fun :D.

 

[Jett]

It's me woah

Firstly just a quick s/os to Quagg and 85percent for letting me use their broken team.

I just wanted to drop a few thoughts, but for the most part people already know my stance. I think Dynamax is very centralising and restricts teambuilding options in NFE. Whilst on paper many of the best Dynamax abusers still have checks and counters, I think it's super unrealistic to be expected to bring all of them as there are very few which are able to successfully check multiple potential pre-dynamax and one dynamaxed threat. This has mandated the usage of Mareanie and Galarian Corsola to ridiculous levels causing both of them to be in the top 5 for usage stats during the 1st 2-3 weeks of the NFE ladder. It's reached a certain point where you have to run one or even multiple Haze/Clear Smog users in order to effectively deal with setup mons, which may or may not Dynamax. I think this over reliance on two Pokemon is especially unhealthy for the NFE and is one of the main reasons why people don't feel Dynamax is as strong as it actually is.

I still think that offensive Dynamaxing is too strong, and apart from Galarian Corsola, pretty much no other Pokemon can really deal with setup Dynamax users due to "first mover advantage". What this basically means it that the first Pokemon which sets up can very easily click Dynamax and proceed to cause destruction particularly over the next 3 turns. When this is stopped, it is normally stopped by Galarian Corsola or the rare case of defensive Dynamax actually working out. Not only does Dynamaxing make our setup sweepers, who hold Eviolite, even more difficult to knock out, it also creates a great deal of unpredictability when dealing with Choiced Pokemon most notably Mr Mime, Haunter and Sneasel. I'll ignore the first one since Mr Mime ought to be a Pokemon which is banned in both Dyna and non-Dyna metagames but Haunter is extremely disgusting with Dynamax and I think Sneasel is very underrated and is still effective. Both these Pokemon can actually deal with Corsola which is the one Pokemon which able to check a majority of Pokemon, so stacking multiple potential Dynamax abusers makes it very difficult for defensive Dynamaxing/threats in general to deal with.

I still think Dynamax is a bigger issue than Rufflet, but if Dynamax doesn't get banned I'm happy to ban a few brokens from the meta and see from there if the meta has improved. Crystal out. o/

 

[blinkboy]

Hide

Let me start off by saying these reqs are no easy feat partly due to the unpredictability of Dynamax and partly due to having to defeat the same players over and over, often restarting a climb on their own reqs alt, meaning I match 1000 rank accounts when I’m in the 1300s who are capable players and have to beat them over and over with a single loss causing a massive dip in gxe. I mean I literally peaked at 1 on the ladder at a stage in my suspect run at 1458 Elo. I even went to the extent of modjoining games so others couldn’t become too familiar with my teams. This was a massive grind, far worse than other suspects I’ve completed but my passion for this tier kept me going and overall I’d say a positive experience.

I am going to keep this as short and to the point as possible as i'm sure by the end of this test you will all be sick of hearing about broken Dynamax and frankly i have to agree, it is just that, broken!

It stifles creativity as you are forced to run the same few Pokemon that blanket check a wide variety of threats as it's too easy to Dynamax and beat a single supposed check or counter. While i'm sick of seeing Corsola on every team, without it offensive Dynamax would be even more unbalanced.

More variables = increased chances of the better player losing, which in turn degrades the competitiveness of the game. Hax is enough, we don't need Dynamax too! It just creates too many mind games and 50/50s. Take this scenario which I've witnessed on multiple occasions as an example, Pawniard switching into scarf Haunter on Dazzling Gleam then going for Sucker Punch only for Haunter to max up and live sucker, ko'ing it back. Alternatively Pawniard gets the initial roll or has the minimal bulk needed to avoid a 2hko from Dazzling Gleam. The player decides to Iron Head or double on an expected incoming threat like Machoke or Trapinch only for their Pokemon to get blown back by a Max Starfall. The hypothetical Solosis in the back is now free to sweep with Iron Defense, CM, Recover and Psyshock. Yes i agree at times there is a 'right' play even in similar instances but people do often confuse losing to a glorified coinflip with being outplayed.

Don't even get me started on Mr Mime and Rufflet! They have already been spoken about at length so all I will say is this. Any attack that boosts a stat as well as deals damage is just too much, especially when it’s speed or attack. In conclusion a meta with Dynamax is a volatile meta dominated by unpredictability.


Sidenote - A ladder tournament similar to OLT one day would be great.
Shoutout Crystalites for moral support.

 

[IoSonoNeon]

I've just got the reqs:

here

I have to be honest here, i've never really got into this tier but i've managed to figure out the main problems of this meta by myself pretty easily (Rufflet and actually most of the evio stuff like Corsola and Mr.Mime and as i said before Rufflet are a big part of it) but i think that this topic should be discussed on another post because we should be focused on the main topic here which is the Dynamax mechanic. First of all i think that the Dynamax mechanic is a disgrace and a very casual and unhealty mechanic (especially for this meta) there's a lot of reasons for this harsh opinion but the main three are:

1) His unpredictability i know that sometimes you can figure out but you can pretty much dynamax at any time in the game and sometimes (during the suspect laddering) a dynamax cost me the game (it is also pretty much an hidden jolly)

2) The hp boost that literally makes revenge killing impossible (especially stuff like mr.mime etc..)

3)Basically has little to no counterplay if someone manages to dynamax on the right time they pretty much win.

 

[Gray]

lol this was tuff, had to go thru 16 alts (started using numbers when i ran out of ideas for names lol)
really new to nfe, ill prob get a little more into it cuz this was relatively fun besides the rage and salt

Definitely gonna be voting to ban dynamax~

1. it takes a lot out of the actual skill (usually just set up once or twice with a rufflet/drakloak/mr mime/klang/gloom and sweep and boom)
2. not only is it INSANELY busted defensively but offensively as well lol (boosted moves + added effects after the mon probably already set up in the first place like tf?)
3. isnt revenge killing like a huge ass thing? poof its gone

Thank u :)

 

[Angels & Airwaves]

Confirming! Will edit this post later with my thoughts:)

 

[Quagg]

Shoutout to 85percent for support during this suspect test. Especially the last 10 games.

Gonna start off with sharing my thoughts about dynamax. Its a pretty unhealthy mechanic since your Pokemon becomes very bulky because of the HP boost plus eviolite, and you get to hit your opponent with a strong attack while also getting stat boosts or terrains. However I do think Mime and Rufflet are the only broken mons with dynamax because they benefit way too much from it combined with almost unresisted STAB and coverage moves. The reason why I think these two mons are the only broken mons with dynamax is because of Corsola. Corsola is what keeps mons like Machoke, Fraxure and Klang in check when they are dynamaxed since it is super bulky and can use Haze, Will-o Wisp and Strength Sap. Corsola obviously doesn't check mons like Haunter when its dynamaxed, but Haunter can't get any speed boosts or terrains that makes it almost impossible to revenge kill.

I dont think its a point in banning Mime and Rufflet before dynamax, because Corsola will still be on every team because you need it to beat Machoke, Fraxure, Klang when they use dynamax. Its very unhealthy for the meta and makes teams less creative because you are forced to use the same Pokemon on every team. I really hope I made this clear enough. Im voting ban.

 

[ArcticBreeze]

The nfe community is bad because 0/35 people clicked x turn 1, you are all evil; also why was like 5/7 Ls I took from ho3n...

I honestly am very conflicted about this topic abstain. I legit am going to decide what im going to vote while ranting here. The only mons that I actually can't stand playing is rufflet, its just scary af. If dynamax was not banned the council would have to quick ban rufflet. Mr.Mime would be banned either way. Dynamax brings nothing competitive to the game, but that by itself is not a reason to be banned. Many proban players say "It's the gens new toy, but that means nothing." But just dismissing that argument is not fair. Because dynamaxing is part of the game. We dont ban thunderbolt because of its 10% chance to paralyze. We dont make a paralysis clause because you can lose to a 25% chance. Dynamax also causes 50/50s, sure sometimes it causes 50/50s, but so do other things and it cant be avoided. Due to Corsola-G and Dynamax Piloswine/Machoke and other things most of the time dynamax doesn't make me feel like oh, that is so stupid I lost to it. You can skillfully play against and with dynamax. Dynamax though is restrictive. Generally more creative teams are not good. Needing some pokemon on 9/10 teams isn't good for the meta. In my opinion almost every team wo/ machoke is bad. Does this change if we ban Rufflet [which has like 0 counters(Sclaw can beat honedge)] and Mr.mime and possibly other pokemon? Rufflet and Mr.mime help beat only Machoke/Gurdurr so there is really no loss in banning them. All I see this ban ultimately doing is making corsola even better. Then you ban corsola and now this is where I feel the answer is. Gloom will rise to prominence and prob Hat/Natu to prevent gloom from stopping machoke. This does not feel like a good option, but is banning dynamax better option? Mime is restrictive af wo/ and w/ dynamax and most likely will be quick banned either way. Then You have Physdef Corsola. Rufflet could still keep its Sub set to punish corsola but that risks wisp on switch and if u get it in u lost a mon or risked a double. This is also one pokemon. Hat/Natu will be used slightly more to punish corsola although it will be most likely banned, with the best Special Attacker Gone and a mostly physical meta; corsola will be super hard to stop. You also dont have dynamax to break through it. Then Gloom will take over for it most likely for Machoke and run Moonlight prob. Then the meta will prob br a stale gloom meta. Then you have to think what went wrong. The problem is im theorizing a lot, but I see nfe having problems either way. I dont see how this can all be solved without banning every good pokemon. Machoke Corsola Gurdurr Mr.Mime Piloswine and Rufflet if dynamax stays. We cant just ban all these pokemon at once though and then decide if we ban dynamax. Overall after all this ranting I think everything will just end up better if we ban dynamax.

TLDR OF WHAT I SAID: NFE META IN THEORY WILL END UP STALE :[

 

[Jett]

Hey everyone, Crystal here with a short message on behalf of the Council. As most of you already know by now, Pokemon Showdown has been having some network issues; many users are unable to get online and the ladder does not update correctly. It is still pretty uncertain when this will be fixed but working with what we know, we have decided to extend the duration of this suspect test until the 26th December 11:59pm EST. This will mean that the voting thread will be opened in the Blind Voting subforum on the 27th December (the day after the suspect ends).

Hopefully the issues gets fixed soon and good luck on laddering for reqs!! n_n

 

[Simbo]

Dynamax in NFE and Reqs Proof​

Yo, long read apologies, but I finally got round to making my Dynamax post. S/Os to 85percent for saving my reqs run by suppling me with the brokens, had to play an extra game cause I'm trash

Reqs Proof

I personally did try and push for a RuffMime ban before Dynamax since I believed it was a cleaner and fairer way of looking at Dynamax as a whole. It would have either proved or disproved a lot of the meta-related speculation which is currently happening in current discussion. However, since a suspect on Dynamax came first, I see no real reason not to ban it now. In case anyone is confused by this stance, since the Dynamax Destruction video (spolier if you didn't catch it live) would suggest I have a different opinion, I played devils advocate for that for the sake of a two-sided discussion.

My main issue with Dynamax is the fact that it almost completely nullifies a lot of mechanics which made Pokemon skillful in previous generations and turns games into an exercise of (normally in vain) trying to mitigate the effects of an opposing Dynamax while fully talking advantage of your own. While some could argue that there is a degree of skill in this, focussing an entire metagame on Dynamax abuse and damage mitigation does not seem competitive to me.

To focus specifically on elements of competitive Pokemon that are nullified by Dynamax

1) Revenge-Killing
Both the x2 boost in HP and Max Airstream abusers are to blame for this, but the whole aspect of revenge killing, which is an integral part of Pokemon in all tiers, is almost completely nullified by Dynamax. In NFE specifically, it was significant towards the latter end of Gen 7 and late NFEPL 3 and after trends, but is also significant in Gen 8. Having a button which allows you to avoid revenge killers by doubling your HP, or setting up Speed Boosts to avoid being revenged, heavily limits answers to offensive threats. You're forced to attempt to wall Dynamax users, which isn't easy, stall it out (usually requires blowing your own Dynamax), or mitigate how much damage the abuser does and then revenge (doesn't work well with Max Airstream, Max Quake and Steel Spikewhatever users who retain Speed and/or defensive boosts after Dynamax is over). On top of this, any form of Choice Scarf revenging is inherently unreliable due to Dynamax, unless your form of revenge killer is capable of doing potentially up to 200% damage on said Pokemon. Opposing Pokemon can, if required, Dynamax to avoid being revenge-killed, kill the revenge killer, then proceed to do damage from there.
You could argue that not every Pokemon will respond to being revenge killed by Dynamaxing, and sometimes it could be detrimental in the long-term to do so, which is valid. However, from a battling perspective, unless you have a specific and dedicated wall to all of potentially 4-6 good Dynamax abusers on the opposing team, you have to consider it as a possibility when battling, planning a game, and judging risk/reward. The amount of times I've seen Mr Mime dynamax to avoid being killed and bop Choice Scarf Haunter is significant.
Overall, Dynamax makes revenge-killing as a whole unreliable.

2) Bypassing the Choice-Lock
This is significant, and one of the main reasons why I think Dynamax is so ridiculous. The whole handicap of using a Choice item is that you get the desired x1.5 Attack, Special Attack, or Speed boost in exchange for being locked into a move. Therefore, if you mispredict, your opponent outplays, or if you lock yourself into an unfavourable move, it can be taken advantage of by the opponent. Being able to lock into a certain move to wallbreak or revenge kill, then bypass any form of attempting to exploit said lock by Dynamaxing is ridiculous. It makes abusing the Choice Lock almost impossible and heavily alters how you would play around Choice Lock. From Gen 8 NFE specifically, the two main examples are Haunter and, to a lesser extent, Sneasel
Choice Scarf Haunter typically would have to lock itself in Shadow Ball to revenge kill Mr. Mime or hit Galarian Corsola hard. It also hits Piloswine harder etc. It would lock itself in Sludge Wave, Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt etc to take care of and revenge kill other threats. Typically, that would be exploitable, Rufflet gets a free attack or setup if you kill something with Shadow Ball, Klang sets up on Sludge Wave etc. However, Haunter now can lock itself into any move, then Dynamax to avoid potential setup sweepers or slower frailer wallbreakers from abusing what it's locked into. Sneasel does something similar with its Choice Band set. Both are also very threatening when Dynamaxed and can then take advantage of the Choice boost and any stat boosts post Dynamax if they survive the three turns.
From a playing perspective, it's incredibly difficult attempting to manage this. Being able to bypass the main disadvantage of running a Choice item is insane and heavily limits plays you can make during a battle. It also prevents exploitation of the lock in a mid- to late-game scenario.

3) The Snowball Effect
With Dynamax, it's fairly easy for offensive sweepers to spiral into something that becomes unkillable, especially in a mid- to late-game scenario. Current main Pokemon which exhibit this are Rufflet, Klang and, to a lesser extent, Fraxure, Pawniard, Farfetch'd and Drakloak. Rufflet can boost Attack and Speed, and limit offensive revenge killing options except for Scarf Mr. Mime thanks to Max Airstream. You're forced to defensively wall it. Klang can boost with Shift Gear then boost Defense with Steel Spikewhatever to make itself much harder to kill on the physical side. Depending on coverage, Fraxure can DD in normal form then boost its Attack, Defense, and/or SpDef to make it steamroll or harder to revenge kill after Dynamax. The main way to counter this snowball effect is either to have a Pokemon which walls both a Dynamaxed and normal form of a Pokemon, or to defensively dynamax. I'll tackle these two points later.

4) Short-term gains rewarded over long-term planning
Competitive Pokemon in previous generations and in general on Smogon prioritises player skill over anything else. The whole goal of tiering is to create a metagame where the more skillful player will beat the less skillful player, and any element which heavily negates this is usually axed. The ability to plan a game from team preview, identify wincons, determine what needs to be chipped to clear a path for a wincon, doubling to gain momentum etc are all limited by the Dynamax mechanic because of how much it offers. Double bulk, which is further bolstered by Eviolite, 3 turns of Z-Moves with great secondary effects. All long-term planning is dumbed down to who better utilises their Dynamax turns and puts a heavy focus on the impact of those 3-6 turns on the outcome of a game. It's not something I personally would want 3 years of a metagame to be focussed on.

Overall, Dynamax heavily reduces skillful aspects of Pokemon and forces games to be heavily focussed on and almost completely decided by who abuses their Dynamax turns better. Usually, this is the person who Dynamaxes last because the first person to Dynamax typically blows their load too early - never a good idea, but a well-played first Dyna can sweep or snowball too.


To tackle number 6 of UOPs post specifically, since a lot of the Pokemon listed as checks or counters are not. Doing this mostly for the sake of a more complete discussion. Not tackling 1-5 because none of my arguments relate to those points.

Using these definitions

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Klang

UOPs list of checks and counters for undynad Klang - Pokemon striked are not what UOP lists them as

Checks: Corsola-Galar (would call this a counter moreso than a check), Gurdurr, Machoke, Carkol, Raboot, Farfetch'd Galar, Pikachu, Dusclops (outright unviable), Vullaby (free setup for Klang), Charjabug (does nothing in return, free setup then gets chipped down), Charmeleon (outright unviable), Lampent, Hakamo-o, Honedge
Counters: Mareanie, Ferroseed, Palpitoad

For Dynad Klang after one Shift Gear

Checks: Corsola-Galar (again, a counter), Gurdurr, Mareanie, Machoke, Carkol, Raboot, Farfetch'd Galar, Dusclops (outright unviable), Charjabug (didnt check either), Charmeleon (outright unviable), Lampent, Hakamo-o
Counters: Ferroseed (stays as a counter), Palpitoad (if its max max, yh)

After Dyna Calcs:

Gurd:

+1 252+ Atk Klang Bullet Punch (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 193-228 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (193, 195, 198, 199, 202, 204, 207, 208, 211, 213, 216, 217, 220, 222, 225, 228)

208+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Klang: 104-126 (19.9 - 24.1%) -- possible 5HKO
Possible damage amounts: (104, 108, 108, 108, 110, 110, 114, 114, 116, 116, 116, 120, 120, 122, 122, 126)

If gurd dynamaxes itself, it still loses unless it specifically dynamaxes on the turn Klang does. However, incorrectly predicting a Dynamax like this is extremely costly, very risky. If you attempt to Dyna and stall, but they just hard Corsola, Dyna wasted on one incorrect predict.

Mare:

+1 252+ Atk Klang Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 216-256 (71.2 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (216, 220, 222, 224, 226, 230, 232, 234, 238, 240, 242, 244, 248, 250, 252, 256)

You can Haze the boosts or fish for a Scald burn, but you certainly do not check it

Choke:

+1 252+ Atk Klang Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 226-267 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (226, 229, 231, 234, 237, 240, 241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 255, 258, 261, 264, 267)

252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Klang: 168-200 (32.1 - 38.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (168, 170, 174, 174, 176, 180, 180, 182, 186, 186, 188, 192, 192, 194, 198, 200)

Bop. Similar story to Gurd, need to predict exactly the turn the Dyna will happen, and you still lose to it. Not a check. Again, if they do not Dyna and hard Cors then you lose your Dyna for nothing.

Carkol:

+1 252+ Atk Klang Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Carkol: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (184, 186, 189, 190, 193, 195, 196, 199, 201, 204, 205, 208, 210, 213, 214, 217)

Carkol does nothing back. Dynaing standard carkol sets would be a complete waste, but even if you did, you would not win. Not a check.

Raboot:

+1 252+ Atk Klang Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Raboot: 127-150 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148, 150)
+1 252+ Atk Klang Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Raboot: 170-200 (62.7 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 196, 198, 200)

252 Atk Raboot Flare Blitz vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Klang: 138-164 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (138, 140, 140, 144, 144, 146, 150, 150, 152, 152, 156, 156, 158, 158, 162, 164)

If raboot dynas on the exact turn Klang does, Klang still wins with double Steelspike into Max Guard. If raboot attempts to stall, it still loses after it loses Dyna.

Fetchd: Similar to Gurd/Choke

Lamp:

+1 252+ Atk Klang Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lampent: 255-300 (97.3 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (255, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 294, 297, 300)

Loses after Dyna too

Haka: Similar to Choke/Gurd

Nearly all of the checks and counter list gets completely nullified after Dynamax. Only Corsola, Ferroseed, and Palpitoad remain. Also highlights that defensive dynamaxing on these Pokemon is only viable if you predict the exact turn they will dynamax, and are prepared to lose your Dyna and a shitton of momentum if you get it wrong. Dynamax makes this far far stronger.

Machoke

Machoke

Undynad Choke - UOPs list

Checks: Corsola-Galar (would call a counter personally), Haunter (Nope, needs a boosting item to 2HKO so still loses. Needs to Dyna to check undynad Choke), Gurdurr, Drakloak (Must Dyna to be a check), Morgrem, Rufflet, Roselia (Nein, unless its Specs Rose and no hazards are up), Fraxure, Thwackey , Hattrem, Gloom (would call gloom a counter)
Counters: Mr Mime Galar (neither a check nor a counter unless it Dynas or is Specs), Mareanie (Nein), Clefairy*, Togetic*, Shellos**

Fairly expansive list. Let's check it after Machoke dynamaxes

Checks: Mr Mime Galar (Nein, needs to Dyna to be a check, a 50/50 scenario if Machoke isn't already Dynad), Corsola-Galar (is a counter depending on how healthy it is), Gurdurr (stays as a check if BU and faster), Morgrem (Nein, needs to Dyna on same turn), Rufflet, Fraxure (Must Dyna), Thwackey (Must Dyna), Hattrem (Must Dyna), Gloom (Counter)
Counters: Mareanie (Nein), Clefairy* (Sure), Togetic (offensive gets 2HKOed by Steelspike, must Dyna on the same turn)*, Shellos (sure)

Mr Mime:

252+ Atk Machoke Max Darkness (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mr. Mime-Galar: 226-268 (93.7 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
(226, 230, 232, 234, 238, 240, 242, 246, 248, 250, 254, 256, 258, 262, 264, 268)

252 SpA Mr. Mime-Galar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 234-276 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO
(234, 236, 240, 240, 242, 246, 248, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276)

Morgrem:

252+ Atk Machoke Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Morgrem: 93-110 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 110)
252+ Atk Machoke Max Steelspike (90 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Morgrem: 226-266 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(226, 228, 230, 234, 236, 238, 242, 244, 246, 250, 252, 254, 258, 260, 262, 266)

In return

252+ SpA Morgrem Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 152-180 (20.8 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
(152, 152, 156, 156, 158, 162, 162, 164, 164, 168, 170, 170, 174, 174, 176, 180)
252+ SpA Morgrem Dazzling Gleam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 102-120 (14 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
(102, 102, 102, 104, 104, 108, 108, 108, 110, 110, 114, 114, 114, 116, 116, 120)

Overall, even though Choke has more counterplay pre-Dyna and it retains a lot of said counterplay post-Dyna, Machoke is also not a typical Dyna abuser. It can't boost Speed, lacks Speed based pre-Dyna setup, and is slow and relatively easy to revenge kill once the three turns are up. If Machoke is being used as a Dyna user, it's probably in a late-game scenario where the opponent can't break it, as opposed to a Speed-based abuser which is far more difficult to deal with. Similar to Klang, some of these checks have to Dyna on the same turn as Machoke to be a check and beat it, which carries its own risks as previously explained.

Drakloak

Undynad Drakloak

Note: I assume the Drakloak is running DD, Outrage, Phantom Force, and Steel Wing. Part of Drakloak's issue (something it shares with Frax) is that it has a fairly extensive movepool to take advantage of and beat certain checks. However, the main two STABs nullify quite a few of these checks.

Checks: Haunter (UOP already explained the issue, but usually when dealing with Drakloak, the assumption is that it has had a chance to get +1, so not a check), Gurdurr (depends entirely on coverage, can easily be setup bait depending on set), Piloswine, Morgrem, Klang, Sneasel, Clefairy, Togetic, Vullaby, Honedge
Counters: Mareanie

After Dyna

Checks: Haunter (Nein, does not kill even if its faster, and Scarf cannot Dyna), Gurdurr, Piloswine (Nein, unless it Dynas on the same turn Drak does) Morgrem (loses even if it Dynas), Klang, Sneasel (Loses even if it dynas), Clefairy, Togetic, Vullaby
Counters: Mareanie

Gurdurr:

+1 252 Atk Drakloak Max Wyrmwind (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 189-223 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(189, 192, 193, 196, 198, 201, 202, 205, 207, 210, 211, 214, 216, 219, 220, 223)
+1 252 Atk Drakloak Max Phantasm (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
(177, 178, 180, 183, 184, 187, 189, 190, 193, 195, 198, 199, 201, 204, 205, 208)

Dragon Dyna lowers Gurd's attack and makes the Ice Punch do very little. Phantasm prevents Gurdurr from attempting to BU stall because it lowers defense
Drak also wins if Gurd Dynas

Piloswine:

Must Dyna on the same turn Drak does, otherwise this happens

+1 252 Atk Drakloak Max Wyrmwind (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
(199, 202, 204, 207, 208, 211, 213, 216, 219, 220, 223, 225, 228, 229, 232, 235)

While Pilo does

-1 252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drakloak: 198-234 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(198, 200, 200, 204, 206, 210, 210, 212, 216, 218, 222, 222, 224, 228, 230, 234)

If Pilo dynas after this turn

+1 252 Atk Drakloak Max Wyrmwind (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 199-235 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
(199, 202, 204, 207, 208, 211, 213, 216, 219, 220, 223, 225, 228, 229, 232, 235)

While it does

-2 252+ Atk Piloswine Max Hailstorm (130 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drakloak: 224-266 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(224, 228, 230, 234, 236, 240, 240, 242, 246, 248, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264, 266)

Barring very good rolls from Pilo, Drak beats Pilo if Pilo does not Dyna on exactly the same turn

Morgrem:

+1 252 Atk Drakloak Max Steelspike (120 BP) vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Morgrem: 352-416 (124.3 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(352, 356, 360, 366, 370, 374, 378, 382, 386, 390, 394, 398, 402, 406, 410, 416)

Even if Morgrem Dynas

+1 252 Atk Drakloak Max Steelspike (120 BP) vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Morgrem: 352-416 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(352, 356, 360, 366, 370, 374, 378, 382, 386, 390, 394, 398, 402, 406, 410, 416)

In return

252+ SpA Morgrem Max Starfall (130 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drakloak: 374-444 (67.2 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(374, 380, 384, 390, 392, 398, 402, 408, 410, 416, 420, 426, 428, 434, 438, 444)

Sneasel:

+1 252 Atk Drakloak Max Wyrmwind (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 399-471 (158.9 - 187.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(399, 405, 409, 414, 418, 423, 427, 432, 438, 442, 447, 451, 456, 460, 465, 471)

If Sneasel Dynas

+1 252 Atk Drakloak Max Wyrmwind (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 399-471 (79.4 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(399, 405, 409, 414, 418, 423, 427, 432, 438, 442, 447, 451, 456, 460, 465, 471)

-1 252 Atk Sneasel Max Hailstorm (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drakloak: 264-312 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
(264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294, 296, 300, 302, 306, 312)

Loses

Drakloak negates about half its checks after Dynamaxing, pretty significant. Dynamax definitely makes this stronger. Unlike Fraxure or Klang, it is more difficult to find an opportunity to get the DD up with Drak though.

Fraxure

Fraxure

Gonna completely ignore Pjab and change it for Iron Tail. If you want Fairy coverage, you use Iron Tail, no clue why people are running Poison Jab when Iron Tail hits Pilo harder, has unnerfed Dyna scaling, and gives you an infinitely more useful Defense boost. Fraxure is a premier Dyna abuser, so the pre-Dyna CCs aren't as relevant imo but I'll go through them.

Undynad Checks and Counters for Fraxure

Checks: Gurdurr, Linoone-Galar (Dies to superpower or outrage, toxiced facade or KO does not do enough), Machoke (No if Adamant or at +1), Piloswine, Morgrem (No if Iron Tail), Mareanie (Needs a Scald Burn), Ferroseed (No if Superpower), Sneasel, Clefairy, Togetic, Shellos, Gloom
Counters: Corsola-Galar

Not gonna do the Dyna calcs for Frax because it should be fairly obvious. If these checks are inconsistent or lose to Undynad Frax, Dynad Frax definitely bops most, especially when dynad Iron Tail boosts Defense and Outrage lowers the opposing Pokemon's attack.

Gurdurr

Gurdurr is similar to Machoke but worse at abusing Dynamax

I think Sneasel, Haunter, potentially Farfetch'd, potentially Pawniard, and potentially Thwackey also fit into this tier 2 described by UOP and are definitely big Dyna threats. If you compiled a list of checks and counters for them with and without Dyna, you would most likely see a similar trend as above.

Conclusions made from the above

1) Galarian Corsola is the main and really only defensive Pokemon in the tier that maintains a high level of consistency in checking most of the various Dynamax abusers. This tier currently revolves around Galarian Corsola and any attempt at balancing the Dynamax mechanic would almost completely rely on Corsola keeping it together. I'd argue one Pokemon keeping everything together is very unhealthy and centralising and, if Galarian Corsola ever got banned, the floodgates would open for multiple bans or removing Dynamax itself, but we don't really have the time to test that.

2) The fact that Dynamax abusers can 1v1 a lot of their checks and counters without factoring hazards, Knock support, and the fact that defensive Pokemon or bulkier offensive threats are required to check multiple Pokemon should illustrate how strong this mechanic is in NFE. Keeping defensive checks healthy enough mid- to late-game to not get rolled over, especially when hazard removal is lacking in this tier, and we have a lot of very strong NFEs in the tier, most likely shifts the odds even more to favour offensive Dynamax abusers in the hands of a good player.

3) Defensive Dynamax doesn't exist. For our best abusers, they can overpower a lot of supposed checks or counters, as demonstrated in the calcs. Attempting to defensively dynamax on the turn an opponent offensively dynamaxes is incredibly risky and puts you at a significant disadvantage if you predict wrong. The whole defensive dynamax thing is reactionary, which already puts you at a disadvantsge because you have to use you dynamax just to check something, whereas your opponent can dictate exactly when they want to Dynamax, most likely get a kill so you can bring your check in on a free switch, and make you use your Dynamax in return.

Overall, I'm voting ban when I hopefully get reqs. There are a few valid DNB points imo, mostly the fact that RuffMime are so overbearing that prepping for them + Dynamax is the issue, and no definitive conclusion can be reached until they go. Cheryl's retirement is also somewhat compelling. However, I see no reason to go down the RuffMime then look at Dynamax route now that Dynamax has been suspected. Dynamax won't change mechanistically and the mechanics are a big problem with it

 

[BelmontGabriel]

Reqs

I could also explain the thoughts that I had during my journey but I'd like to take a shortcut and say that 95% of what I experienced was explained in Simbos post above.

The only Point I slightly disagree with is that defensive Dynamax doesnt exist. It barely does bit you have to still name the exceptions. Imo Clefairy (especially CM Clefairy since it can boost its SpAtk) and Piloswine (Yes I see Pilo as a more defensive mon in this tier since if you invest in its defenses then it can abuse the HP Boost through Dynamax even more).
These two absolutely shine while Dynamaxing defensively and in combination with Corsola-Galar can take on pretty much any mon that decides to Dynamax on the opposing Team.
Nonetheless the Dynamaxing mechanic in itself is broken and even if the best abusers are dealt with due to banning there would just be a new Pokemon that would step up and take their place instead.
Also I'd like to note that Corsola-Galar is definitely the glue that keeps this Dynamax meta together and even if the mechanic wasn't banned here then there would've to be a retest when that pokemon should go in the future.

Anyways I'm gently surprised by the otherwise stable meta that NFE has to offer (and will offer after the Dyna ban) and hopefully we will get some more active players on the ladder since waiting around 5-10 minutes to find a battle is a huge pain for such a fun Tier.

 

[elleapple]

Reqs

Well gamers, I did it. I really don't have much to add to the pro ban side that hasn't already been simbosplained in this thread. I consider dynamax to be an inherently unbalancable mechanic. The boost in hp and the boosts given by the max moves allow for both more difficult or outright impossible revenge killing, and the possibility to sweep through an entire team at the push of a button.
Right now a couple of defensive mons are holding the entire dynamax centered meta together, being corsola, gloom, and to a lesser extent mareanie. Having 3 mons as your choice of defensive options against dynamax should be indicative that the mechanic isn't balanced in the slightest.
I will say that the use of dynamax on defensive/bulkier mons like piloswine has been undervalued, but using dynamax like this is much less advantageous than using it on your own sweeper.

tldr even though this post was super short; I will be voting to Ban Dynamax from SWSH NFE[/SPOILER][/SPOILER]

 

[DugZa]

 

[Tack]

gonna drop the 2 teams i was using since i feel like it and no tours going on

https://pokepast.es/47cb7f5a6a5446bf <-- slow ass natu balance, probably pretty bad but it had somewhat of a winrate
https://pokepast.es/a7dcf52bf7f13cfb <-- my barely editted day 1 team that hard loses to webs/sun if my opp is competent
also shoutouts to nfed hoothoot for being 34-1 but not posting ever

 

[IcyCrook]

It's probably too late but I am finally back on.

 

[The Immortal]

Vote here!