Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - Royals

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TPP

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The OU tiering council believes Zamazenta-Crowned deserves the opportunity to be tested down from Ubers into the OU tier. Please note that a retest does not make it an official addition to the OU tier, but rather it allows for Zamazenta-Crowned to have the opportunity to be voted down from Ubers to OU. In order to have an accurate vote, we will be retesting Zamazenta-Crowned on the OU ladder over the next few weeks, much like any other suspect test.

The council believes now is the best time to test Zamazenta-Crowned as the recent survey established that players and council alike believe the metagame to be very competitive and balanced. Following the Cinderace and Magearna bans, there have been no outstanding candidates that would warrant tiering action. This can be backed up by 68.5% of the playerbase from the survey that stated they do not believe that any Pokemon currently in the OU tier deserves a suspect test. These factors coupled together provide a good opportunity for the council and the community to evaluate the potential impact Zamazenta-Crowned can have on the OU tier.

The survey also displayed that 51% of players support a suspect test for Zamzenta-Crowned, with the remaining 14.6% being indifferent, and 34.4% being against it. While 51% is barely more than half, when you consider how the 14.6% of players that feel indifferent do not oppose the test, it could be seen as saying that 65.6% of players are open to testing Zamazenta. With this majority in mind, the council decided Zamazenta-Crowned was in a fair position to receive a suspect test due to the various reasons detailed below.

Zamazenta-Crowned is unlike most Pokemon as it is forced to use Rusted Shield as its held item. This means it is unable to use other items, such as Leftovers or Choice Band. This by itself limits Zamazenta-Crowned’s performance to its stats, typing and its movepool. Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk is naturally high as a cover legendary, sitting at a base stat total of 720. It’s ability, Dauntless Shield, provides it additional bulk by giving a +1 boost to its Defense stat upon entry in battle. This boost alongside Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Defense stat allows it to serve as a strong defensive answer to physical threats in the metagame, such as Melmetal and Weavile. This Defense boost can also be useful in making Zamazenta-Crowned difficult to revenge kill. For example, Zeraora’s Close Combat against Zamazenta-Crowned after Dauntless Shield only deals 35% - 41%, which means it is able to comfortably avoid the 2HKO. On the other hand, Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Special Defense stat can also make it difficult to KO, as a Shadow Ball from Specs Dragapult only deals 36.3% - 43.3%. Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk cannot be underestimated and looks to be a large factor to its performance in the OU tier. This will be a key aspect to evaluate during the suspect test, as it may determine whether or not Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk is too much for the current OU metagame to handle.

Additionally, Zamazenta-Crowned does provide another benefit in that it is essentially immune to Knock Off and Trick, both of which are very strong moves this generation. In an item centric metagame, this immunity can grant Zamazenta-Crowned some additional defense roles. Zamazenta-Crowned is more reliable at handling Trick users like Clefable and Tapu Fini, as they will be unable to trade their items away. Knock Off users that have recently risen in prominence such as Bisharp and Weavile will now have to deal with an opposing threat that eat Knock Off comfortably. Not only is Zamazenta-Crowned immune to losing its item, but its typing, bulk, and ability allow it to tank Knock Off with ease and force Dark-types out.

While Zamazenta-Crowned boasts immense bulk, it also has a respectable Attack stat. Base 130 Attack with a decent movepool, including options such as Close Combat, Behemoth Bash, Ice Fang, and Wild Charge can allow it to pose a threat to a majority of offensive Pokemon in the OU tier. Close Combat and Behemoth Bash are strong STAB attacks, which can allow Zamazenta-Crowned to deal significant damage to Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Clefable. Its remaining attacks can provide solid coverage to hit every switch in - Ice Fang for Landorus-Therian, Wild Charge for Toxapex and Corviknight, and Fire Fang for Scizor. Despite the various coverage options, Zamazenta-Crowned may run into a small issue of 4 move slot syndrome. With 4 attacks, it has enough strength to punish offensive Pokemon, but it may lack enough attacking power to break through bulkier teams. With Howl, it can improve its breaking capabilities, but it then struggles to quickly KO threats like Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, and Scizor, depending on whichever coverage option was dropped.

While it appears to be difficult to answer offensively, Zamazenta-Crowned looks to struggle at breaking through bulkier Pokemon in the metagame. No boosting item and no Swords Dance means that aside from Howl, Zamazenta-Crowned is forced to rely on its Attack stat and coverage moves to break through walls like Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Corviknight. Wild Charge, while nice in theory, is unable to 2HKO a physically defensive Corviknight with 168 Defense EV’s even with Stealth Rock. Additionally, because Zamazenta-Crowned lacks recovery and cannot hold Leftovers, any residual damage from Wild Charge recoil and hazards is permanent. In other words, this means that Zamazenta-Crowned is on a timer, which has been seen less this generation due to Heavy-Duty Boots being a popular item.

As mentioned earlier, Zamazenta-Crowned does have access to Howl as its only boosting move. Howl, unlike Swords Dance, raises the Attack stat by a single boost instead of two. As such, this means Zamazenta-Crowned will require multiple uses of Howl before it is able to make a significant difference in its damage output. However, thanks to Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk and Dauntless Shield, it may not be too difficult to set up multiple times in battle. It is essentially guaranteed to live any single hit, even strong super effective ones like Garchomp's Earthquake. Zamazenta-Crowned is already capable of setting up on a majority of physical attackers, and its bulk can help increase set up opportunities.

Finally, thanks to Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Speed stat, it is able to function as an offensive pivot that can provide defensive utility while simultaneously exerting offensive pressure in order to check faster threats, such as Kartana and Kyurem. This by itself opens up a potential role in the metagame, as it can provide an additional check to Tornadus-Therian, which only three other Pokemon at this current time can do (Tapu Koko, Dragapult, and Zeraora). Additionally, thanks to its typing and immunity to Knock Off, Zamazenta-Crowned looks to be a strong answer to Dark-types such as Bisharp, Hydreigon, and Mandibuzz, as well as Knock Off users including Ferrothorn, Rillaboom, and Clefable.

Zamazenta-Crowned in theory looks to be an interesting addition to the tier. It has a fair number of pros, such as its immense bulk and high Speed tier, and a fair number of cons, such as its inability to run another item as well as a lack of a proper boosting move. This thread should be used to focus on Zamazenta-Crowned’s place in the suspect metagame and nothing else. There should be no discussion of alternative suspects or discussion opposing this retest. Normal suspect rules and procedure, which is outlined below, applies to this retest as well. Finally, the threshold necessary to unban Zamazenta-Crowned is 50%+1 due to it being a retest and for more on this, consult this thread.


  • ***THIS IS NEW TO SS OU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTK. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account OUTK TPP.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitation when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Zamazenta-Crowned, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until April 25th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Zamazenta-Crowned vs other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leader suapah, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
 

Finchinator

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First off, huge thank you to TPP for making this test possible and everyone who responded to the tiering survey giving their input!
Zamazenta-Crowned is a very unique Pokemon; this is the first Pokemon being tested down from Ubers that has not had a prior stint in OU since Kyurem-Black in the middle of generation 5 during 2012. While we have retested Pokemon like Aegislash in generation six and both Melmetal and Cinderace this generation, they all had time in the OU metagame, which led to their initial bans, before being retested. Because of this, I personally encourage everyone to participate in the suspect process -- post your thoughts, get voting reqs, and play the metagame with Zamazenta-C and against Zamazenta-C as much as you can to help make an informed decision! It is best we all come in to this with an open mind and do what is ultimately best for the metagame.

I will be using this post to outline my personal experience in the Zamazenta-Crowned metagame thus far -- including the viable sets to use on it, the teams I have been using, and my opinion on if it is banworthy or not.

:Zamazenta-Crowned:

Let's start with how Zamazenta-Crowned has been used as well as some teams with it!

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Howl / Behemoth Bash
- Close Combat
- Ice Fang / Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge

This is the set I have both used and seen the most; the slash with the coverage moves can go either way, with both sides offering respectable coverage options, but I personally prefer Ice Fang and running team support to help take advantage of Clefable, Tapu Koko, and Slowking-Galar. Behemoth Blast hits those Pokemon and offers a lot of potential midgrounds, including the lack of defense drop from Close Combat, but it fails to connect with the same strength on Landorus-Therian and Garchomp, which are both quite common.

Unfortunately, Zamazenta-Crowned does not get one of the more established set-up moves such as Swords Dance or Bulk Up and while it gets Iron Defense, it does not learn Body Press, so it is stuck relying on Howl to have any chance at breaking through defensive Pokemon due to the lack of an item slot. With the support of status, Knock Off, or Spikes, you can justify running 4A or even Rest, Substitute, or other filler moves, but I have seen them less than the mainstream options listed above. Finally, other options like Crunch (Slowbro without recoil and Aegislash), Psychic Fangs (Toxapex without recoil), and various niche support moves are all likely viable, but also lack much usage currently in my experience.

As for the nature and EVs, I prefer Jolly due to how common opposing Zamazenta-Crowned is, which you can tank a hit from easily, and for outrunning Tornadus-Therian and Weavile, which are both quite common right now. Adamant is helpful in improving some damage ranges after a Howl vs specific walls, but hazard or status support can easily compensate for that. I run a straightforward, offensive EV spread to maximize damage output, but if you wish to tank Earthquakes easier, I have seen people run some HP investment and other people drop off quite a bit of speed even. Overall, this set is strong, but I do not find it to be banworthy and oftentimes it requires great deals of support to even be consistent offensively. I think that as we have more experience with Zamazenta-Crowned, it will become more consistent and we will both find out how to use it and check/counter it better, so this is all preliminary anyway.

:Zamazenta-Crowned::Tapu Fini::Landorus-Therian::Dragonite::Volcarona::Zeraora:
:Zamazenta-Crowned::Slowbro::Clefable::Garchomp::Corviknight::Dragapult:

Here are two teams with Zamazenta-Crowned I have been using; the first is my favorite, but both highlight common partners and supporters for it. I particularly like Zamazenta-Crowned with the support of Trick + Choice Scarf Tapu Fini, which helps cripple common switch-ins like Toxapex and Slowbro and gives Misty Terrain support. Some other offensive partners that I like are Swords Dance Ground types and Rillaboom, who both are able to compliment it offensively and defensively. On the more balanced side of things, Teleport support of phenomenal for Zamazenta-Crowned, especially when paired with Wish, to mitigate the lack of recovery, or Future Sight, to pose a major issue to common switch-ins.

I hope this set, the teams, and the discussion of what Zamazenta-Crowned can do helps inform everyone and gives people interested in trying the metagame out a good starting point. If anyone has questions, feel free to message me or ask in the SQSA whenever needed!

---

As for my personal opinion on Zamazenta-Crowned as a whole, which is very much subject to changing with more time and experience, it is as follows...

From a glance, Zamazenta-Crowned is a defensive behemoth thanks to 145 base defenses and an ability bolstering its physical bulk even more, but when you look at the movepool, you realize that Zamazenta-Crowned fulfills the role of bulky attacker and potential win condition as well as, if not better than, just about anything else.

Unfortunately, the lack of recovery moves is a huge deterrent to the longevity of Zamazenta-Crowned. It still has unmatched natural bulk and this can be supported by Wish support or even the occasional Rest variant, but this still requires support and free turns, which can both be exploited. Wish + Teleport Clefable has fallen off in recent months and even with a strong partner like Zamazenta-Crowned, cores with it still will naturally be playing on the backfoot a lot due to the metagame offering many strong options to make the most of free turns and predictable sequences.

Moving past the lack of built-in longevity causing passivity problems, Zamazenta-Crowned is not particularly strong when it is in and healthy either. 130 attack is relatively strong for the OU metagame, but it is incapable of running an item due to Rusted Shield occupying its item slot and this makes it far less threatening. While these items of course offer restrictions and having this outright comparison standalone is poor, the best way to prove this point and measure up Zamazenta-Crowned is to say that Zamazenta-Crowned is as strong as a Pokemon with base 89 attack and a Life Orb or base 73 attack and a Choice Band; without further boosts, Pokemon with that offensive presence obviously do not strike you as particularly strong in the OU metagame. Thankfully for Zamazenta-Crowned, it has so much else going for it and it is also not facing any inherent restrictions like Life Orb or choice item users, which is a major plus. However, being incapable of running any boosting items makes 130 attack much more middling than impressive in current OU.

Howl can help patch this up a bit, but even a +1 Wild Charge is not doing nearly enough to a physically defensive Toxapex with Haze or a Teleport Slowbro necessarily. Because of this, Zamazenta-Crowned has a fairly long list of checks and counters on the defensive end. In my opinion, they are as followed (subject to change depending on trends, variants, etc of course, so do not bother posting solely to nitpick the list):

Counters
  • :Buzzwole:
  • :Aegislash:
  • :Volcarona: with Roost
  • :Zapdos: if no Ice Fang
  • :Hippowdon: if physically defensive
  • :Victini:
  • :Quagsire:
Checks
  • :Tangrowth:
  • :Landorus-Therian: if no Ice Fang
  • :Garchomp: if RH and no Ice Fang
  • :Toxapex:
  • :Slowbro:
  • :Skarmory: with Iron Defense or Whirlwind even
  • :Corviknight: with Iron Defense
  • Various RKers after chip (Dragapult and Tapu Koko avoid the OHKO and can 2HKO from decent ranges, but do not win the 1v1, for example)
I do find this a sufficient list of defensive counterplay; in fact, this is more offensive counterplay than many Pokemon currently in OU, so that is not problematic. The sole problem is offensive counterplay; I do believe that with a little chip and pressure, revenge killing prospects are very realistic, but others feel differently and I have yet to use Zamazneta-Crowned with screens support, so I do not want to say I 100% believe it is ok quite yet.

In addition to this, outright lists of checks and counters are rarely enough to get the full picture in. In fact, that is far more geared towards the builder than it is actual games -- go out, try to use and play against Zamazenta-Crowned and form your own opinions. My ultimate vote is TBD still, but right now I am leaning towards voting to unban Zamazenta-Crowned. I believe offense can and will adapt, which it has already many times this generation, whereas many things can check/counter it defensively.
 

ironwater

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Hey there. I’m here to give my « day 1 » thoughts on Zamazenta-C in OU. Have fun reading :p
zamazenta-crowned.gif


The question of testing Zamazenta-C in OU being already on the table for quite some time, I tried to think about what made this Pokemon so bad that it could potentially go down in OU with such amazing stats but also what could make it good or even too good in this tier. I haven't had the opportunity to really test it yet, so what I'm about to say will remain rather theoretical and we'll have to see what it looks like in practice. (A little aside: I had chosen Shield when the games were released because I thought Zamazenta would be an unbeatable defensive wall, a bit like Necrozma Dusk Mane, and now here we are: Zacian-C, its Sword counterpart, banned from Ubers while Zamazenta-C is suspect tested in OU...).
poor zamazenta.jpg


To begin with, we can look at why despite its incredibly good stats this Pokémon is tested in OU. Culminating with a total base stat of 720, having an incredibly high bulk, a more than correct attack stat and an excellent Speed tier for OU (being outspeed only by some Pokémon like Tapu Koko, Dragapult and Zeraora in particular), this Pokémon seems to be way too strong for OU. And yet, the many flaws behind this Pokemon with such perfect stats (explaining its near-zero usage rate in Ubers) were enough to tip the scales for an OU suspect test. Its main flaw is its lack of recovery. With no access to any good recovery move other than the very impractical Rest, Zamazenta may have a good bulk, he cannot recover its HP on its own and will end up dying after a few attacks. Its movepool is particularly sad: its STABs are good but walled by common defensive Pokemon in OU like Toxapex and Slowbro. It has access to some coverage moves, but its main way to threaten the bulky Water types mentioned above is Wild Charge, which forces it to take irreversible residual damage. Its moves are also all making contact and so it is extremely vulnerable to Rocky Helmet chip damage due to its lack of recovery. On top of that, it can't hold an item. This is a huge nerf for Zamazenta-C as shown by the fact that the normal form that can hold an item is considered by everyone to be strictly better. Indeed, without an item Zamazenta-C becomes much more predictable as this greatly reduces the possibilities of sets it could use. He cannot take advantage of a Choice Band to increase his damage and become a threatening physical wallbreaker. He also doesn't have access to items he would dream of having like Leftovers for a passive recovery which would greatly increase its longevity or Rocky Helmet for a more defensive set able of hardly punish U-Turn users. It is worth mentioning that its typing gives it some useful resistances, notably to Knock Off (which it can absorb without the risk of losing an item), U-Turn and Stealth Rocks. With recovery, these resistances could have made it a key Pokemon capable of stopping a lot of threats and regaining offensive pressure. Unfortunately, without recovery, these resistances are not enough because the chip damages, although low, are irreversible. Finally, about the shortcomings of Zamazenta-C, we can note that it cruelly lacks good set up options, having only Iron Defense that can’t really be useful without recovery and Howl that allows it to raise its attack but makes it much less dangerous than a Swords Dance user.


Reading what I have just written, one might think that Zamazenta-C will be bad even in OU. I don't think it will. Why? Well, if when alone this Pokemon has many flaws that prevent it from shining, everything becomes completely different with the right support. Firstly, on the defensive side, if it can't heal itself, it becomes much harder to deal with and weaken when its teammates can heal it. The first way to give him recovery could be to use the support of Grassy Terrain with the presence of Rillaboom. The Grassy Terrain removes its Ground weakness allowing him to tank Garchomp and Landorus-T's moves while having the Leftovers he always dreamed of. Coupled with his double resistance to Stealth Rocks and Rillabom's ability to U-Turn this could allow Zamazenta to easily come onto the field to recover some health while threatening the opposing team and attempting to overwhelm common checks shared with Rillabom such as Corviknight which it can touch with Wild Charge. However, the recovery of Grassy Terrain is still quite low and will not greatly increase its longevity. But there is more. Indeed, another way to allow Zamazenta-C to heal itself, and this time in a much more efficient way, is Wish. Wish is often seen as an impractical way to heal some offensive Pokemon lacking recovery. However, in the case of Zamazenta-C, it is important to note that its typing pairs up really well with the main Wish passer of the tier, namely Clefable. Indeed, many Pokemon that threaten Clefable with their Steel and Poison types or coverage are unable to hit Zamzenta-C. Moreover, Clefable can come on Fighting attacks that threaten Zamazenta-C. Teleport doesn't seem so mandatory on Clefable because since Zamazenta resists Clefable's weaknesses and naturally has a very good bulk, it should be able to come easily after a Wish from Clefable to recover its health while regaining the momentum of the game. This defensive support already makes Zamazenta-C theoretically much better when played in conjunction with a Pokemon like Clefable. However, this is not the only support Zamazenta-C can take advantage of. Indeed, Zamazenta-C also benefits greatly from the support of Future Sigh. Close Combat coupled with Future Sigh has already shown its efficiency in the past, making some Pokemon able to bruteforce through their checks and force kills quite easily. This will likely be the case with Zamazenta-C, which sees its offensive pressure increased tremendously with the support of a threatening Future Sigh. In addition, Future Sigh's main users, namely Slowbro and Slowking go very well together with Zamazenta-C covering their respective weaknesses well. In addition, Slowking acts as a great special wall combining well with Zamazenta-C's high physical defense and can help against Nidoking and Heatran against whom the aforementioned Zamazenta-C Clefable core has troubles. Because of Zamazenta-C's very good bulk, abusing Close Combat (or Behemoth Bash) + Future Sigh seems fairly easy and could make Zamazenta-C both a solid defensive option and a dangerous breaker.


Now we must keep in mind that all of this is theoretical, and we’ll have to see in practice if these cores work as well as they seem to do. Zamazenta-C potential with a great support make me want to vote ban for now but I’m still completely unsure and I will wait to have a clearer idea on its potential in OU with matches/reading other opinions before making my choice.


Thanks for reading, I’m eager to read your opinions about Zamazenta-C and I wish you good luck to get the reqs.
 
Last edited:

Lily

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hi i got reqs and have been playing around on the ladder since and i think zama-c is perfectly fine and here's a bunch of reasons why.

for reference, i used a team by ajna that he used in spl - meaning i made absolutely no edits to account for zamazenta, and it was actually reasonably weak to it bc of the blissey + non-scarf lele giving it opportunities to set up a howl and my defensive responses being speedy helmet chomp + mixed def corviknight. i still think it's okay.


a) it is not a good breaker
zamazenta's attack stat is quite meaty especially when backed by nice, high-powered stabs in cc and behemoth bash, but it's held back by a lot of things. here's where 4mss comes in.

without ice fang, it cannot break through landorus-t.
without howl + ice fang, it cannot break through zapdos.
without howl + wild charge, it cannot break through toxapex, slowbro, or slowking.
without howl, it cannot break through corviknight, skarmory, bulky dnite, bulky mandibuzz, etc etc.
regardless of anything, it cannot break through hippowdon, bulky volcarona, buzzwole, quagsire, etc.
other fringe options were being ran on the ladder for various reasons; i saw crunch which is presumably to get a hit off on aegislash and play rough which was uhh idk

point is, standard balances can fit a lot of mons that just permanently wall it.

when backed by future sight support, zamazenta can be a real problem. many people i have talked to have used this as their primary reason to vote ban on it; here's the thing. not only do other mons do this, but they do it better. galarian zapdos, terrakion, and particularly urshifu-r are immensely threatening with future sight support, even better than zama-c because they're able to force more opportunities since they force more switches and can more easily break through pokemon that can handle both future sight + fighting move like slowbro.

b) it is highly vulnerable to chip damage and is very poor defensively despite its gargantuan bulk
during my run on ladder, i ran into a problem - there were a lot of rocky helmet users and i had a melmetal. this meant that i was taking chip out the butt and couldn't really use it defensively as often as i'd like to. absolutely shockingly, zamazenta-c suffers from the same issue, except it's even worse. why? well, a few reasons

-It has no recovery, passive or otherwise, so all damage on it is permanent;
-Its secondary Fighting typing is extremely awkward for a Steel-type, making it neutral to Fairy, Flying, and Psychic - no taking advantage of Clefables or Tornaduses here;
-All of its attacks are contact-based and one of them inflicts recoil.
-It is affected by every entry hazard except Toxic Spikes and can't even use Boots to counteract this. Particularly noticeable in Spikes matchups bc obviously it doesn't care about rocks Thaaat much but it adds up.

what does this mean? it means it takes helmet chip, rough skin chip, and its good bulk is very quickly extremely marred by this, meaning it can't actually stomach hits from the likes of zeraora or bisharp the way it should be able to.

you can solve this. things like wishport clefable, reliable defoggers like corviknight etc. are all helpful but it creates teambuilding holes - you pretty much require a secondary steel type with it else you're slain by the likes of tapu lele and tapu koko, and you also need a lot of support to actually keep this thing on the field for more than a few turns.

c) offense has a lot of natural checks that can stomach a hit or just straight up wall it
volcarona is the big one here, being able to completely counter this thing with roost. it's pathetic how little zama can do to it, and while roost isn't always The Best on volc, it's perfectly fine and easy to fit.
zapdos fits on offense and walls this thing to oblivion. aegislash does too but it doesn't have recovery so yeah you might lose in a long game but offensive teams are trying not to force long games anyway.
dragapult can eat a hit and slam it with shadow ball, fire blast, wisp or whatever else it wants to run these days.
torn-t can even switch into it once or twice and nail it with a strong attack; you'll trade in the process but it's gonna leave the zama really crippled.
koko, scarf lele, dragonite can all threaten it pretty easily altho they don't ohko, but only lele is ohkod back. scarf kartana gets a special mention because sacred sword ignores the def boost from dauntless shield tho it still only does about ~65% iirc.
occasional bulky mons that fit on offense can do fine against it; rh chomp, victini, and the big one - landorus!! - all do great against it.

point is, this doesn't change teambuilding all that much for offensive teams. you have to take trades with it, but so do they. "just hit it" is simple and possibly silly advice but it tends to work just fine.


also wanna say that finch's post above includes even more checks that i haven't bothered to mention like tangrowth and theres also stuff like amoonguss etc that owns it.

---

in short, zamazenta-c is a fine addition to OU. it's a pain to take out but it doesn't do all that much breaking, isn't very good defensively despite its massive bulk and tbh it causes more issues in the builder than it does for your opponent because of the massive weakness you gain to stuff like fairies, opposing future sight, torn-t etc. so i'm honestly not a fan of it, esp without koko. it is a cool mon for sure and it can find its niche with ease but considering how little the meta needs to shift to actually deal with it, i think it fits in naturally just fine. as a result, i'm probably going to vote do not ban, but i'll keep a close eye on it over the next couple weeks to see if my opinion shifts. it might take a bit of getting used to how to play around it but i'm nearly certain it'll be fine. once people get over the initial "omg it takes HOW much from lando eq?" i think they will realise this too.
 
A Pokemon's eligibility to be in a tier should be determined by more than the number of checks and counters it has. Several questions arise. What can counters actually do against it? What can checks do against it? What can these Pokemon do against it and cover switches? How well does it do against Pokemon that don't check or counter it? For example, if a Pokemon has a decent amount of counters, but they can only slowly chip at it and it destroys every mon that does not counter it, you can stay in very often with this Pokemon, and eventually switch. This forces the opponent to play very predictably, leading to favorable outcomes very often, and this Pokemon would be broken.

It is obvious that Pokemon is not always about switching to a counter in a bad matchup. More aggressive plays (from midground plays to double switches) may be made, and the Pokemons' characteristics (stats, movepool, typing) can shift the risk/reward dynamics.

Zamazenta’s fantastic stats (and good enough other traits) shift risk/reward outcomes to be heavily in its favor when it comes to aggressive plays. Zamazenta's counters need to use powerful attacks or chip at it with burn or rocky helmet to consistently damage it, allowing the Zamazenta user to use it more aggressively and force the opponent to play more carefully.

As far as I can tell, Zamazenta has some counters but few offensive checks. Its checks often don’t OHKO it, and take sizable damage if the Zamazenta user decides to stay in. When facing a check, it can get chip on the check for another team member and usually not get KOed. Because of its lack of checks, Zamazenta does very well against offense and hyper offense. Having it in the OU tier would shift the metagame towards bulkier teams at a magnitude that is not healthy for the diversity and enjoyability of the game. While enjoyability is not a “competitive” measure, it is an important point to note.

I think that Zamazenta-C should not be in OU.
 
As far as I can tell, Zamazenta has some counters but few offensive checks. Its checks often don’t OHKO it, and take sizable damage if the Zamazenta user decides to stay in. When facing a check, it can get chip on the check for another team member and usually not get KOed. Because of its lack of checks, Zamazenta does very well against offense and hyper offense. Having it in the OU tier would shift the metagame towards bulkier teams at a magnitude that is not healthy for the diversity and enjoyability of the game. While enjoyability is not a “competitive” measure, it is an important point to note.
I heavily disagree with this sentiment. Mainly due to the fact that the offensive checks/counters don’t necessarily have to OHKO. Zamazenta-C has absolutely no recovery, so it can’t restore any health, so Stealth Rock and Spikes damage will add up over the match. Volcarona can switch into Zamazenta-C and can Roost off the damage, turn it into set up fodder, and potentially cripple it with a Flame Body burn. Other faster cleaners such as Zeraora, Tapu Koko, and Dragapult can clean it up afterwards. This shows how hyper offense can adapt to such a defensive mammoth.
 
Due to personal stuff, I likely won't be getting reqs. Which is a shame because I actually have strong opinions that this thing kinda gets blown out of proportion hard in theorymonning.

Yes, Zama is super bulky and can be annoying for offense, but even offense runs some natural checks like Volc or Dragapult that make Zama's life hard. It needs just too much support and time to actually be a good breaker. In order to really break through teams, you need multiple howls and a clean switch to break through fat teams. Its 4MSS is bad since you need Howl and CC, but you want all of BB, Ice Fang, and Wild Charge. Without Wild, Toxapex and Slowbro/king become awful, without Ice Fang Lando is a nightmare, and without BB Fairies are evil. Balance and even offense will likely have a check to this thing. I know some people might bring up Future Sight, but even then, many other breaker fighting types like Urshifu R or Gapdos do that better since they actually have a hold item to ramp up their power and do not need that extra turn of set up.

What imo is the thing that makes it kinda bad (by bad I mean not broken) is how easy it is to chip. Spikes from my experience is one of the easiest things to check Zama with. Since it has no held item, Spikes can be brutal as even just one layer chips into its bulk enough to make it that muche asier for offense to handle. Combine that for it's lack of a held item and how much of a magnet for status it is, Zama ends up being chipped super hard throughout the match. While this could be handled with some support, having to run Hazard removal + Status removal + Wish or Healing Wish support is outright excessive and at the end of the day feels like you put in so much effort just to do well against offense, while this thing ends up mediocre at best in any fat matchup.

The main ban argument I can kind of get is that this thing is annoying for Offense. I think that that argument is a bit overblown due to the meta being very fresh with this thing and even then, its "unloseable" matchup vs Offense is kind of overblown. Offense can run plenty of checks to it like Lando T, Dragapult, Volcarona, Aegislash, Victini, Slowbro/king, and Zapdos. It is not forcing you to use bad mons, all of those are already good mons. Even small adaptations can help make the matchup more managable. Running Spikes I have found is something that helps a ton as it makes Zama have a much harder time setting up. A Zama taking Rocks + A layer of spikes or just a Layer from my experience can help make the matchup far less annoying. At best, it might take out 1.5 mons. While that can be annoying, that is a best case scenario.

Yeah this thing might seem unbeatable in theorymonning, but much like Kyube in Gen 5, in practice it kind of is underwhelming. If I do get reqs, I am likely voting unban.
 
Time to talk about a dog's plastic surgery (Intentionally) gone wrong :Zamazenta-Crowned:

Zamazenta-C looks really broken on paper, a steel type 128 speed, 130 attack, and 145 def and sp. def, on top a stat-boost to defense, what could possibly go wrong? Well... a lot of things went wrong; Howl is okay, but it's nowhere as good as Swords Dance and Bulk up, it gets easily crippled by burn, it has almost no recovery (it has Rest, but Rest a little too inconsistent to be considered good), chip damage wears it down, and has no item; but it's not completely bad, because Zamazenta-C rarely gets OHKO'd, and could get off some good KOs.

From a Power standpoint, it's in one of the weirdest places, it has 130 attack, but it can't break through walls effectively, suffers from 4MSS, only gets Howl, and doesn't have access to Body Press.

From a centralization standpoint, it doesn't really centralize the meta-game that much, yes it does KO other Hyper Offensive mons, but most of these KOs are exclusive to slower Hyper Offensive mons, it only does something late game, and gets walled endlessly by... walls. Zamazenta-C really doesn't feel broken, and most of the time, it doesn't overwhelm teams.

Considering everything that I said, I'm going to vote:

Don't ban
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
I'll be voting to ban Zama-c.

I was motivated to get reqs after not having done a suspect test all gen because this pokemon is total nonsense and will destroy any chance of having a reasonable metagame. If it were to be released it would be analogous to unbanning M-sabeleye from Gen 6 OU, that is the level of metagame shift we are currently contemplating when we consider tiering Zama-C. It was highly apt, imo, that this suspect test was introduced on April Fool's day.

There is no historical analogue for such a pokemon existing in OU, and while it is misguided to look in ubers for a pokemon with similar characteristics, I would point out that no such pokemon exists.

Zama-C is a very fast mon with staggering defenses (I remember vividly having to calc in one of my games, to see if shadow ball from gengar would kill it at 50% after a spdef drop), steel typing, and quite good stab offensive coverage. What its presence means is that traditional heavy offenses are forced to make big trade-offs in order to face Zama-C when it is slapped onto a stall team or an offensive team. Against stall you have to contend with a pokemon that threatens to KO your sweepers, and sacrificing 2 of your mons to break through it often leaves you too depleted to make a breakthrough once its gone from the field and you can finally set up. Against opposing offense you have to make the same sacrifices but there can still be a small compensation in so far as your opponent's team is frailer and careful choices will still leave you with winning chances after these sacrifices.

My worry is that zama-c requires offensive teams to devote too many resources to become safe against it in the teambuilder, and thus leaves offensive teams too disjointed to break the stall formulas that will emerge, stall formulas that run unaware pokemon, blissy, toxapex and corviknight (and with Zama-C in Ou they will also start running it in their core). With Zama-c in OU, the future of offense teams will center on it, with teams that are able to get around Zama-c being significantly less able to break stall and match-ups between offensive teams being significantly determined by who wins a Zama-C vs Zama-C speed tie or who is able to conserve their zama-c until the end game (although there is skill in the later). I do not think the metagame we are left with once Zama-C is in Ou is worth giving up our current metagame.

Minor point on 'counterplay':

Volcarona is garbage offensive counter play, offensive teams that run it can pretty much give up on breaking stall when the basic archetype these days is a lead and 5 physical sweepers. Same goes for Zapdos btw. Adding volc to check Zama-C means giving up the advantage you normally have because stall teams run Blissy and it does not play against your physical sweepers, thereby ensuring stall begins at a soft 5-6 disadvantage against offense. Since you have to run roost and invest in defense to consistently answer Zama-C, your volcarona is also garbage against other offensive teams where it is set-up fodder for Garchomp, DD Dragapult, Dragonite, etc. Having set-up fodder mons like defensive Volcarona is how matchups between offensive teams are lost and devoting resources to run a special attacker that is bad against offense and stall is a massive nerf to the recent offensive archetypes that have been used in Gen 8 OU.

If nothing else, I hope this post will motivate better explanations for why we should want to unban Zama-C and shine a light on its implications for team match-ups.
 
If I get reqs, I'll be voting to unban Zamazenta-Crowned.

This thing honestly sucks more than I expected.

On paper it's fantastic: it has strong STABs, a fantastic Speed tier, and excellent natural bulk that lets it survive some absurdly powerful attacks from full HP. It should give offense absolute hell... on paper. In practice, though, it can't OHKO much of anything without a significant number of boosts and just can't get the boosts fast enough to become a problem.

Yes, it could run Ice Fang... but then it neuters its matchup against either Fairy-types or Toxapex/Slowbro, which is far from an ideal situation when these mons are all so common. And otherwise this thing gets hard-checked by the tier's EXTREMELY domiant Ground-types in Lando-T and Garchomp, either semi-defensively with Helmet/Rough Skin chip or offensively with irreparable damage from Earthquakes.

It can't really beat any offensive team running Volcarona, either. I feel like the poster above drastically underrates Volc's place on HO (note: that's not a personal jab at all so I hope that doesn't come across as offensive); running it doesn't automatically make Stall an unbeatable matchup, and Stall itself honestly isn't getting that much better with this thing's existence. On the contrary, this thing itself fits well on Hyper Offense as a nice defensive backbone and greatly benefits from Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain. It's very bulky behind Screens, to be sure, but it also isn't able to KO much without several Attack boosts under its belt because Zama-C is just so painfully weak. It doesn't have a Wicked Blow or a Sucker Punch beefing up its +1 attacks and it also doesn't have any sort of recovery OR counterplay to hazards outside of support.

On paper Zama-C is unhealthy because it allegedly forces some sorts of team archetypes to sacrifice their effectiveness against other matchups, but I honestly cannot see this being a thing on the ladder in my experience thus far. A lot of teams already have some level of counterplay against Zamazenta, and if the counterplay is more limited than it seems that's less a testament to how unhealthy Zama-C is and how unhealthy its own teammates are.

This mon gives the tier the Knock Off and Trick answer it so desperately needs, but it just isn't that excellent in any other department, even with Screens support and even under the most ideal conditions. I've been running it on a variety of more offensive archetypes and it... usually just doesn't really accomplish anything. And whenever I've bumped into a Zama-C on an opponent's team the thing usually just does a bit of damage and eventually gets itself killed or it just doesn't contribute anything meaningful because its checks are just that easy to slap onto a team.
 
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So on paper, Zama-C seems amazing. Strong STABs, great stats, free Defense boost on switch in, and immunity to poison and sand. However, when you look farther in, you begin to realize that it's really underwhelming. Let's start with the obvious: it's forced to hold Rusted Shield, meaning it essentially doesn't have an item. This limits both its offensive and defensive potential. Without Choice Band or Life Orb, it's liable to miss out on crucial KO's on its checks. Without Leftovers or Boots, it gets worn down easily by hazards and smart play. Speaking of getting worn down, Zama-C also packs no recovery, meaning that without Wish support from either Clefable or Blissey, every hit and bit of hazard damage is staying, meaning that it can be taken down quickly with smart play from things like defensive Zapdos or Tapu Fini. These two also have the capability to burn Zama-C which is utterly ruinous to it. It cannot easily mitigate this through stat boosts, since its best setup move is Howl. Yeah. Howl. This in addition to its susceptibility to burn and the aforementioned inability to hold any attack boosting items makes it miss out on KOs quite frequently. This also leaves it vulnerable to its weaknesses to common attacking types in Fighting, Fire, and Ground. Oh hey, what's the most common and best Pokemon in the meta that has a STAB Earthquake and Intimidate? Yeah no way in hell Zama-C is breaking through Lando-T, especially with its movepool. "But wait," you say, "you said Zama-C has really strong STABs!" This is true. Behemoth Bash and Close Combat are great moves to have. However, where it lets itself down is in its coverage. It is pretty much limited to Wild Charge to hit things like Toxapex, Slowbro, Corviknight, and Skarmory. Now you could run Psychic Fangs to have a recoil-free option to hit Toxapex or Ice Fang to hit Lando-T and Chomp harder, but both of these options leave you walled by the aforementioned Slowbro, Corviknight, and Skarmory. "But wait," you say again, "couldn't you run one of these moves and Wild Charge?" You could theoretically, but then you're missing out on even more KOs without Howl boosts.

Now this isn't to say that some of these issues can't be mitigated with proper team support. If you hate status, you could run Tapu Fini or an Aromatherapy/Heal Bell mon. If you hate hazards, Defog is as common as ever. And I already mentioned wish support from Clefable and Blissey. The problem with these is that a smart player can get around them. For example, Zapdos hits Fini really hard. The most common Defoggers like Corviknight and the aforementioned Tapu Fini are by no means invincible. A well played Kartana or opposing Zama-C or can easily rip through Clefable and Blissey.

It is for these reasons I will be voting unban if I get reqs.
 
256px-Pokémonsprite_889a_SWSH.gif

Hey guys, I would like you to show my thoughts on Zamazenta Crowned.

Zamazenta Crowned is a Pokemon that has incredibly broken stats, a great ability with Dauntless Shild which gives an free Def boost, it has a great typing and a very good coverage.
But Zamazenta Crowned has a lot of big problems too. This thing has no Recovery (not even with Leftovers, because it can only use Rusted Shild as an Item to have the Crowned form, which means that it can't use another helpfull Item like Choise Band) and Zamazenta Crowned is walled by many good Pokemon, like Slowbro, Toxapex, Corviknight, Skarmory, Quagsire, defensive Landorus (but it has to be carefully because of it's bad Recovery), Hippowdon, Moltres and Tangrowth as examples.
But it can also be defeated by some offensive Pokemon like Volcarona, Blacephalon, Landorus and Victini as examples.
I personally think that we have more than enough answers against Zamazenta Crowned and I don't think that this thing makes Teambuilding problematic.
Thanks for reading and good luck with getting reqs. :blobthumbsup:
 

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
is a Pre-Contributor
Well, firstly, I apologise for posting too soon yesterday, I got impatient.

Currently I am uncertain on Zamazenta-C. It seems to be the only suspect that does not have an obvious result, which is not what I was expecting when the test was discussed before. Something I am not sure about is are we using Zamazenta-C correctly? I believe it is not a wall that you frequently use to take hits, and it is not a Knock Off absorber, as most Knock Off users have other ways to punish it like supereffective coverage, Toxapex's Scald, or Ferrothorn's Leech Seed, for instance. I don't think Knock Off on its own is threatening in general, it is this combined with strong attacks or other utility. No, the proper way to play it is to imagine it as a glass cannon you want to avoid taking hits where possible, then save its bulk to check a threatening sweeper in a pinch, avoid being revenge killed by that Dragapult or Zeraora, or set up an extra time. Zamazenta-C is not a a sweeper or wallbreaker, it is an enabler that provides speed control, pressures some specific Pokemon, and draws in a set of almost exclusively defensive Pokemon that its team takes advantage of, similar to Tapu Koko and Zeraora.

Secondly, yes, there is counterplay, but is it healthy? Are Rocky Helmets optimal on everything? I think not, given their decline in usage after the Cinderace ban, but Zamazenta-C calls for them on everything as most of its checks can't damage it otherwise. As I said, the counterplay is almost all passive defensive Pokemon Zama's team can exploit once switched in, or has to use a sometimes suboptimal set like bulky Volcarona, which causes the loss of matchups against Pokemon like Dragapult and Garchomp. Consequently, we may end up in a Spectrier / Dracovish type situation, where Zamazenta-C is bad but the metagame exploits its presence: for example, hazard stack teams could thrive as Slowbro is not running Heavy-Duty Boots anymore. Using Slowbro in itself means that you lose the generally superior at the moment Slowking, so no longer check premier threats like Heatran and Tapu Lele, which will also take advantage of its presence. Toxapex has a much worse matchup against Tornadus-T as it has to be physically defensive now.

Even if Zamazenta-C does not do that much on its own, is the support it provides too much? Zamazenta-C is an enabler, as I said above. It has fantastic synergy with prominent Pokemon of which some have already said are too much, like Rillaboom, Zeraora, Kyurem, and the Slowthings. As the only viable revenge killers to Jolly Zamazenta-C that do not have to use a Choice Scarf, Tapu Koko, Dragapult, and Zeraora will get even more centralising than they are at the moment. Do we want to add a fantastic partner to them that could push some of them over the top? I would prefer banning as few Pokemon as possible, and I am sure the council does too, so keeping Zamazenta banned looks the better choice than unbanning it and doing several more suspects that we may not do without Zamazenta-C's presence.

Additionally, Can Zamazenta-C get around its counters? It can do so in many cases:

:buzzwole: If offensive (even the 112 HP set) Play Rough 2HKOes after Stealth Rock. Bulkier variants survive this but cannot stomach a Psychic Terrain-boosted Psychic Fangs. Defensive Buzzwole is also passive and exploitable, as we saw with its usage plummeting after the Kyurem-B and Zygarde bans even though it was the only hard Urshifu-S counter.

:toxapex: :slowbro: :corviknight: :skarmory: All lose if Zamazenta-C has Electric Terrain to boost Wild Charge.

:landorus_therian: :garchomp: :zapdos: Get worn down by Ice Fang. Further to my previous point, Garchomp must also be physically defensive, instead of the generally more useful without Zamazenta-C offensive and specially defensive sets, and Landorus-T needs Helmet over the generally better Leftovers.

:victini: :aegislash: If Zamazenta is Adamant, they are outsped and (must be offensive for Aegislash to guarantee) 2HKOed by Crunch.

:volcarona: If it gets its Boots Knocked Off, then both Behemoth Bash and Close Combat 2HKO after Stealth Rock. And forcing Volcarona in to Knock it isn't difficult with something like Rillaboom or Kartana.

Only Hippowdon, Tangrowth and Quagsire can get away completely, of which the former has to switch to a physically defensive spread and the latter is only viable on stall. I know some of these do need external support, but that did not stop Mega Metagross being banned from Gen 7 OU where a factor was that terrains meant it beat would-be checks like Slowbro. And Pokemon will adapt and run seemingly obscure coverage moves or sets, like Gravity Landorus-I and Disable Spectrier, if it helps them get past their established counters. If we unbanned Kyurem-B (don't though), expect it to start carrying Dual Wingbeat to OHKO Buzzwole at +1. And if you need more than one check to a Pokemon to handle it consistently, then I believe that is banworthy.

However, the points others have made about why it is healthy are reasonable, so I don't think it necessarily needs to be banned yet. I do, however, think we need to wait some more time for the Zamazenta-C meta to settle down before concluding whether it is as bad as some people think, or if it can overcome its counters in some way (which I think may be possible).
 
After using it on both balance and HO teams, my first impression of Zamazenta-Crowned is that it's honestly completely fine. 720 BST definitely looks scary, but it doesn't really manage to move the game forward on its own merits all that often due to its somewhat lacking power and proneness to being worn down. I mostly stuck with just Howl/Bash/CC/Wild Charge, and while I see the merits of Ice Fang, I elected not to run it after watching it do less than half to a standard defensive Lando-T.

I won't harp on the lack of power too much, it's not particularly strong despite its theoretically great coverage, since every team should carry a fighting check by default and plenty of good defensive and offensive mons can check it. Sometimes I found that it couldn't really even threaten things out that it hit well, such as doing ~75 to a Ferro and eating a seed. It's very reliant on its teammates to weaken things or set up terrains/knocks for it before it comes in, since it can't do much of that by itself. While the post above me notes that Zama-C can, in theory, beat many of its checks and counters, it also shows that it requires a very specific set of circumstances or a completely different Pokemon setting something up to do so. To beat Buzzwole, for example, it needs to be either running a very specific, largely suboptimal move (play rough) and the Buzzwole being specifically offensive, plus rocks being on the field (admittedly not terribly hard, since Buzzwole rarely runs boots), or exactly Psychic Fangs in Psychic Terrain just to 2HKO it. While it's cool that it can do this, running either of these moves opens you up to being walled by an entirely different Pokemon, making it pretty inconsistent as a breaker over multiple games. Same deal for Crunch Zamazenta, it's cool that it can do it but it doesn't actually want to run it because all five of Howl/CC/Bash/Wild Charge/Ice Fang are just that important. Yes, five. That's not a good sign.

Electric Terrain support is a little more manageable, as Wild Charge is a move you'd actually want to run, but the insane amount of recoil you take means doing 50 to a regen mon still doesn't feel like a winning trade since they can just pivot back out again if they really have to. So it's nice that it can force them out with some team support, and it certainly looks impressive, but in practice after using it this is less a great option to build around and break the tier and more something that incidentally can happen while using Koko + Zama. Additionally, they both have some broadly similar checks, so it's not as likely as you'd think that you can pivot Zama in with Koko, and then neutralize their Pex the next turn with a terrain boosted wild charge.

I do think the post above me makes a decent point about comparing it to Koko and Zeraora, but the fact that it cannot pivot on its checks removes part of what makes Koko and Zeraora as good as they are. Zama has to hit into things, then manually switch out, losing momentum for you unless you want to double out of it.

Lastly for power, Adamant is probably required. This isn't that bad, as it's still very fast, but Jolly getting over Torn-T is cool since it can stomach two +0 hurricanes (or one heat wave/focus blast).

Zamazenta's ability to 1v1 and/or wall things is fairly overblown. I know we're in a stage of "wait, that did how much?" but the lack of recovery causes serious issues for it. While its bulk is certainly impressive, its typing really isn't fantastic, leaving it weak to the usual common types steel hates and removing three key steel resistances in flying, psychic, and fairy. If Zama's your only steel, you will need to find other checks to something like Latios or Lele, which is required and not particularly easy since, y'know, you'd normally use your steel for those. It still has a fair amount of key resistances, most notably Grassy Glide, but the lack of recovery and weakness to every non-tspike hazard means it has a really difficult time leveraging that over the course of the game without noticeable team support, which isn't something a broken pokemon will have to do. I've heard tale of a hypothetical rest set being used on defenisve teams, and while it would be hard to kill, it also doesn't really do anything to move the game forward on its own. It switches in, takes a hit, maybe two, has to rest, and then switches out and waits for a cleric on the team to wake it up later.

Most noticeably, if you want to use Zamazenta as a check to something, you're sacrificing its ability to 1v1 things since its fabled ability to do that is very reliant on it being at or near full health. Even taking something like a Clefable Moonblast (~25%) makes it very difficult for it to 1v1 something later, basically meaning that for all its bulk it can't really switch in all that often, lest you lose its best selling point. Again, (Healing) Wish support can attempt to remedy this, but that once again requires Zamazenta to crutch on a teammate. I also sincerely believe that if you're playing heavy offense and letting Zamazenta-C get in at 100% health without taking any sort of hit doing so or even hazard damage, it's probably not Zamazenta-C's fault that you're struggling with it. Volcorona is also perfectly fine on HO and Zama can't break it without outside support (read: knock off), in addition to things like Garchomp, Lando-T, Victini, etc also handling it perfectly well. Once people adapt to its presence in the meta (which is reasonable to assume will take some time, since it's been here for less than two days), HO will almost certainly adapt just fine.

I used it on screens, and it was fine. Despite the extra bulk it never felt like the main win condition but more of a plan B to Hawlucha, because even with a possible extra turn to set up there's things it just cannot break efficiently.

tldr, unban. It's far too reliant on team support to break offensively or wall defensively, and even with that support it's nowhere near unbeatable. It can 1v1 a respectable amount of the tier under perfect conditions, but those conditions often involve it getting in at full health, plus the right combination of moves, terrain, and boosts to do it. It's nowhere near bad, but it's not broken enough or even unhealthy enough to be kicked back to ubers.
 

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
is a Pre-Contributor
After using it on both balance and HO teams, my first impression of Zamazenta-Crowned is that it's honestly completely fine. 720 BST definitely looks scary, but it doesn't really manage to move the game forward on its own merits all that often due to its somewhat lacking power and proneness to being worn down. I mostly stuck with just Howl/Bash/CC/Wild Charge, and while I see the merits of Ice Fang, I elected not to run it after watching it do less than half to a standard defensive Lando-T.

I won't harp on the lack of power too much, it's not particularly strong despite its theoretically great coverage, since every team should carry a fighting check by default and plenty of good defensive and offensive mons can check it. Sometimes I found that it couldn't really even threaten things out that it hit well, such as doing ~75 to a Ferro and eating a seed. It's very reliant on its teammates to weaken things or set up terrains/knocks for it before it comes in, since it can't do much of that by itself. While the post above me notes that Zama-C can, in theory, beat many of its checks and counters, it also shows that it requires a very specific set of circumstances or a completely different Pokemon setting something up to do so. To beat Buzzwole, for example, it needs to be either running a very specific, largely suboptimal move (play rough) and the Buzzwole being specifically offensive, plus rocks being on the field (admittedly not terribly hard, since Buzzwole rarely runs boots), or exactly Psychic Fangs in Psychic Terrain just to 2HKO it. While it's cool that it can do this, running either of these moves opens you up to being walled by an entirely different Pokemon, making it pretty inconsistent as a breaker over multiple games. Same deal for Crunch Zamazenta, it's cool that it can do it but it doesn't actually want to run it because all five of Howl/CC/Bash/Wild Charge/Ice Fang are just that important. Yes, five. That's not a good sign.

Electric Terrain support is a little more manageable, as Wild Charge is a move you'd actually want to run, but the insane amount of recoil you take means doing 50 to a regen mon still doesn't feel like a winning trade since they can just pivot back out again if they really have to. So it's nice that it can force them out with some team support, and it certainly looks impressive, but in practice after using it this is less a great option to build around and break the tier and more something that incidentally can happen while using Koko + Zama. Additionally, they both have some broadly similar checks, so it's not as likely as you'd think that you can pivot Zama in with Koko, and then neutralize their Pex the next turn with a terrain boosted wild charge.

Lastly for power, Adamant is probably required. This isn't that bad, as it's still very fast, but Jolly getting over Torn-T is cool since it can stomach two +0 hurricanes (or one heat wave/focus blast).

Zamazenta's ability to 1v1 and/or wall things is fairly overblown. I know we're in a stage of "wait, that did how much?" but the lack of recovery causes serious issues for it. While its bulk is certainly impressive, its typing really isn't fantastic, leaving it weak to the usual common types steel hates and removing three key steel resistances in flying, psychic, and fairy. If Zama's your only steel, you will need to find other checks to something like Latios or Lele, which is required and not particularly easy since, y'know, you'd normally use your steel for those. It still has a fair amount of key resistances, most notably Grassy Glide, but the lack of recovery and weakness to every non-tspike hazard means it has a really difficult time leveraging that over the course of the game without noticeable team support, which isn't something a broken pokemon will have to do. I've heard tale of a hypothetical rest set being used on defenisve teams, and while it would be hard to kill, it also doesn't really do anything to move the game forward on its own. It switches in, takes a hit, maybe two, has to rest, and then switches out and waits for a cleric on the team to wake it up later.

Most noticeably, if you want to use Zamazenta as a check to something, you're sacrificing its ability to 1v1 things since its fabled ability to do that is very reliant on it being at or near full health. Even taking something like a Clefable Moonblast (~25%) makes it very difficult for it to 1v1 something later, basically meaning that for all its bulk it can't really switch in all that often, lest you lose its best selling point. Again, (Healing) Wish support can attempt to remedy this, but that once again requires Zamazenta to crutch on a teammate. I also sincerely believe that if you're playing heavy offense and letting Zamazenta-C get in at 100% health without taking any sort of hit doing so or even hazard damage, it's probably not Zamazenta-C's fault that you're struggling with it. Volcorona is also perfectly fine on HO and Zama can't break it without outside support (read: knock off), in addition to things like Garchomp, Lando-T, Victini, etc also handling it perfectly well. Once people adapt to its presence in the meta (which is reasonable to assume will take some time, since it's been here for less than two days), HO will almost certainly adapt just fine.

I used it on screens, and it was fine. Despite the extra bulk it never felt like the main win condition but more of a plan B to Hawlucha, because even with a possible extra turn to set up there's things it just cannot break efficiently.

tldr, unban. It's far too reliant on team support to break offensively or wall defensively, and even with that support it's nowhere near unbeatable. It can 1v1 a respectable amount of the tier under perfect conditions, but those conditions often involve it getting in at full health, plus the right combination of moves, terrain, and boosts to do it. It's nowhere near bad, but it's not broken enough or even unhealthy enough to be kicked back to ubers.
Good points but I believe, like others, you may be using Zamazenta-C wrong. Here's what I believe Zamazenta-C does:

I tried it on screens HO and thought it was bad, because Zama is not a bulky tank that should be used to switch into strong attacks and set up multiple times in the match. It is an offensive enabler which is mainly for bulky offense and balance teams. It is one of the best rewarders of prediction, as with correct prediction it is possible to take advantage of just about all the Pokemon that can switch into it using Zamazenta-C's teammates, and Zama is good at pressuring just about anything else in the tier except the listed Pokemon.

When using it, forget what its stats are and pretend it is Zeraora or Tapu Koko - you do not switch it into the majority of Pokemon directly, but instead only into a specific subset of Pokemon it walls like Weavile and choice-locked Rillaboom. Most of the time you instead bring it in after a teammate is KOed or through a pivoting partner and use it to force out a weakened opposing Pokemon, and you predict the switchin to the opponent's passive counter and, in Zamazenta-C's case, you have to directly switch in your own wall to wall it or a wallbreaker that sets up or forces it out to do some heavy damage.

Where Zamazenta-C is different to the aforementioned Pokemon is that, with proper play, it stays fairly healthy and so it does not get revenge killed the way Rillaboom can do for Tapu Koko and Choice Scarf Landorus-T does for Zeraora, for instance, thanks to the bulk you have preserved. Hopefully the kind of pressure Zamazenta-C puts on gets even better if, as I suggest above, Zama starts to run different coverage like Crunch or Play Rough instead of just Howl or Ice Fang. I think coverage may actually be better than Howl, for the same reasons you run Close Combat over Bulk Up on Boots Zeraora.

Of course, the big pressure is offset by a couple of flaws. Zamazenta-C needs more aggressive play than the aforementioned pivots as it does not have a pivoting move and relies on manual switches to take advantage of its counters. Spikes and Rocky Helmets are its worst enemies in my opinion, not its actual counters, as it does not have Knock Off or the ability to use Heavy-Duty Boots unlike other fast pivots.

Zamazenta-C may not be actually broken, but I think it can do far more than what some people think if you play it as a pressure-inducing pivot than a setup sweeper.

Edit: Yes, I should have said to get a proper feel of what it can do scrap your Howl Zamazenta hyper offense and try a team that takes advantage of the Pokemon it draws in like Finchinator's teams above.
 
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Niko

Banned deucer.
Little question: why are we suspecting Zamazenta-C and not also its non-C version? I see it as a worse version at all.

I don't want to repeat things said by others so I'm going straight to the point:

Reasons to unban:
1 - Zamazenta gives a big real help against Hyper Offense, especially against Dark Spam. Weavile and Bisharp for example are totally neutralized.
2 - It absorbs Knock Off, we had no Knock Off absorber until now.
3 - The dog was mainly used with an Offensive set, but maybe it can make stallish teams viable again with a Restalk set or smth.

Reasons to keep banned:
1 - Is there any drawback in using Zamazenta-C in every team? In the current metagame, there isn't. We will figure out this point better in the next weeks I guess.
2 - Its long term checks are only Roost Volcarona, Zapdos and Unaware Quagsire. This isn't a problem considering that Zamazenta is easy to chip and shares its checks with other threats. But what's going to happen when people starts using a tank with a lot of offensive firepower and coverage like Zamazenta with Screens, Healing Wish or Wish support? Is it sustainable? This is another point to figure out.

252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 144-171 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 146-174 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 205-244 (63 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 158-188 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 306-360 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 66-81 (20.3 - 24.9%) -- approx. 5HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 260-306 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 177-209 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 177-208 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery


TL;DR Right now I'm oriented to UNBAN Zamazenta-C, but I will keep testing it and see what happens.
 
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Zama-H is not restricted to Rusted Shield, and its pure Fighting-typing on top of 130 Attack and 138 Speed would almost surely push it over the edge as an offense Choice nuke.

EDIT: Yo, I'm addressing that little box that everyone seemed to miss in Niko's post literally directly above mine.
 
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:ss/zamazenta-crowned:

HP:92
Attack:130
Defense:145
Sp. Atk:80
Sp. Def:145
Speed:128

Let's do some math, it has an impressive amount of bulk, its ability is definitely not competitive in OU considering that it can reach +1 in Defense already with its entry into the field.
I state that Speed Boost is already at the limit (along with Soul Heart), but moreover in the past there was also Moxie so currently as a mechanic there could also be and I think it is tolerable. BUT NO Dauntless Shield!
It takes Momentum and allows you to set up quietly, plus it has a monstrous movepool capable of countering Slowbro, Toxapex, Mandibuzz Landorus-T and Zapdos (just to name a few).
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 266-314 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 265-313 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 160-192 (41.8 - 50.2%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's not all, the only ones who can outspeed him are Dragapult, Regieleki, Zeraora and Tapu Koko. And do you want to know who is able to revenge kill him? NONE OF THEM.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. +2 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

The metagame is already centralizing on him, I've seen scarfers like Blacenphalon who can only do something if in range.
(252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 236-282 (69.2 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
The rocky helmet is now the favorite item on Zapdos and Mandibuzz.

In conclusion, will the metagame become all based on the building of the latter where each team will arouse the presence of Zamazenta-Crowned?
YES

KEEP THIS BANNED
and enjoy the current OU.

P.S. there are other ways to check and discourage the possible uses of Magma Storm, BandSharp, Garchomp, Dragapult, Kartana and Cloyster, if you don't succeed, you have big building problems.

Peace.
 
:ss/zamazenta-crowned:

HP:92
Attack:130
Defense:145
Sp. Atk:80
Sp. Def:145
Speed:128

Let's do some math, it has an impressive amount of bulk, its ability is definitely not competitive in OU considering that it can reach +1 in Defense already with its entry into the field.
I state that Speed Boost is already at the limit (along with Soul Heart), but moreover in the past there was also Moxie so currently as a mechanic there could also be and I think it is tolerable. BUT NO Dauntless Shield!
It takes Momentum and allows you to set up quietly, plus it has a monstrous movepool capable of countering Slowbro, Toxapex, Mandibuzz Landorus-T and Zapdos (just to name a few).
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 266-314 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 265-313 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 160-192 (41.8 - 50.2%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's not all, the only ones who can outspeed him are Dragapult, Regieleki, Zeraora and Tapu Koko. And do you want to know who is able to revenge kill him? NONE OF THEM.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. +2 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

The metagame is already centralizing on him, I've seen scarfers like Blacenphalon who can only do something if in range.
(252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 236-282 (69.2 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
The rocky helmet is now the favorite item on Zapdos and Mandibuzz.

In conclusion, will the metagame become all based on the building of the latter where each team will arouse the presence of Zamazenta-Crowned?
YES

KEEP THIS BANNED
and enjoy the current OU.

P.S. there are other ways to check and discourage the possible uses of Magma Storm, BandSharp, Garchomp, Dragapult, Kartana and Cloyster, if you don't succeed, you have big building problems.

Peace.
All these points have already been mentioned above and debunked thoroughly. It has a huge 4mss problem, and takes a lot of chip damage. The only way to make Zama-C work is provide wish support. Wild Charge recoil, Rocky Helmet, contact moves that get it burned or payalyzed, CC defence drops, weak Howl...everything adds up and more. You should try using it in actual battle, it's neither centralizing or broken.
 
Here in this thread we can clearly see the difference between people that actually play the tier and people who continue to theory mon and bring up its INSANE stats over and over again. There are some valid points as to why Zama may be too much for the tier, but for the most part everyone that actually played some ladder can at least say that it isn't nearly is powerful as many predicted.

One of the most commonly brought up problems is its matchup versus offence which is admittedly quite good but definitely not outstanding or banworthy in my eyes. Firstly, if you go through its main defensive answers most of them (with the exception of Buzz) are commonly found on bulky offense teams as a defensive backbone. Zama really doesn't change that and those teams really don't have to adapt that much to her presence. In practice, Zama rarely manages to break past these cores because with HDB/regenerator the player can simply dance around it and quickly figure what coverage it has. Once you do figure out its set most teams will have at least one offensive and one defensive check. This is where its second problem really comes in. Sure, it's really fast but many common offensive mons out speed it such as Zeraora and Dragapult. Pult is especially deadly as it can either revenge kill it if it's chipped or simply burn it rendering completely useless for the rest of the match. That is Zama's main issue: it is super easy to chip and weaken it by which point an offensive scarfer or one of the aforementioned revenge killers can come in and finish it. To conclude, even its matchup versus offense doesn't look too promising with all the residual damage, incredible defensive backbones these teams have and very solid revenge killers. Even versus HO Volcarona completely stuffs it, tons of things can take a hit from it and many mons can straight up set up on it depending on the coverage (for example Dragonite). All in all, I feel like ZamaC will end up being outclassed by either stronger wallbreakers (like Urshifu) or offensive pivots with similar defensive niche (such as Melmetal).
 
Zama-H is not restricted to Rusted Shield, and its pure Fighting-typing on top of 130 Attack and 138 Speed would almost surely push it over the edge as an offense Choice nuke.
Except were testing Zama-C which can only be used with rusted shield, Zama-H is still banned.

Also as for my experience with Zama-C itself well it works exactly like i expected... which is meh. Its two big problems was its bad movepool and forced item slot. It has severe 4mss with its most common set being Howl, CC, Bash and Wild Charge. Ice Fang can be used to hit lando and chomp harder or other coverage moves such as Crunch for Aegislash or Fire Fang for Scizor but defying from the main set leaves you walled by more mons. Its wishes it can have an actual item slot for things like lefties/band to mitigate chip/boost its power but otherwise Zama-C is only compatible with rusted shield. As for offense well others manage to cover its matchup with it better than i can and its not the no.1 offense killer that most people fear about. So as a result we have a pokemon with Arceus base stats but one that needs a huge amount of team support in order to work and its biggest contribution on a team is as a k-off/trick absorber. So if actually have time to get recs i will vote UNBAN.
 
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