Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - Royals

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ima

Take me to your leader
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
My response to the whole ordeal where "Zamazenta makes HO completely unplayable!" is the simple fact that it has only been 2 days. A meta doesn't evolve and adapt in a span of a mere two days and anyone who brings up this argument should look to use some creativity in the builder and find ways to break the norm we've been used to for the past couple months. A pokemon being unbanned obviously comes with a whole metagame shift, and the fact we are seeing Zamazenta on offense (which is pretty much a case of new meta syndrome, nothing foretelling that zama will be a staple mon on every team in the coming months) is a huge red flag that people haven't actually explored options around it on offense nor in general as of yet.

Zamazenta has a very limited movepool, but it does offer 'balance' to the meta as it stands by answering prevalent threats like Bisharp and Weavile. As it stands, the meta we are in right now is such a cluster fuck that focuses more on being 'balanced' rather than finding ways to further explore the generation of SS, which inherently offers little to no innovation and a wave of the same teams over and over again with your best friend, Boots Slowking. From that point of view, an idealism that leans towards unbanning Zamazenta offers more diversity towards expanding views on the metagame and awards innovation and creativity in the builder more than what we have as it stands right now.

My take on this suspect is to not keep things "balanced" by accomplishing nothing from it, but moreso to make the exploration of SS OU much more vast, with the benefit and intent of having originality in the builder. What we have now doesn't reward anything.

With that all being said, this is a perfect chance for the meta to evolve, so as it stands, I'm probably leaning towards unban.
 
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John W

Banned deucer.
I don't like double posting but after reading some posts and talking to others on discord, I think my original post was insufficient at covering my main concern and also that I might be in the minority with my stance so I'll be a bit more clear on why I have the opinion that zamazenta is not a good addition for this ou metagame.

The most concerning issue to me is easily how well it fits on the future sight + teleport archetype with either slowbro or slowking. The latter is more commonly seen since the extra special bulk has better synergy with the most common abusers being bisharp, kartana, and urshifu rapid. To be more specific the type of team i'm referring to is Slowking + Lando T + Physical Breaker + Koko/Draga/Weav/Zera + Corv/Dnite/Skarm + Heatran/Ferro. This style of team is already very difficult to handle and in my opinion the most consistent type of team since the cinder/magearna ban. I believe Zamazenta outclasses the main abusers mentioned above solely because of the ability to help handle one of the best ways to punish this style of team in opposing physical dark types. While some offensive power is lost in comparison to kartana or urshifu, its definitely worth the immense bulk/utility to give a better insurance for weavile or bisharp or to have a chance to sweep if the opponent makes a misstep.

I don't agree with the statement of "its only been a few days, the meta will adjust" when this style of team is so versatile and that different variations can handle various threats which may be an issue. The way I see it, when you add a great offensive mon that eliminates one of the main ways to break through these fport teams in proactive play with strong dark types, it makes me wonder what form of healthy counterplay is even possible to prevent the tier from becoming heavily reliant on mu fishing.

The one thing about zamazenta that is different than a lot of other mons I've used is that it can't be played recklessly. Even on the future sight teams, If you make a misstep then the chances of getting kills or sweeping decrease drastically regardless of having heal bell + eterrain + fsight. This goes both ways in that patient play can oftentimes lead to checkmate positions where the opponent loses a pivotal mon or outright swept with the amount of pressure that can be forced.

I did play a bit without future sight + heal bell support and I definitely can resonate with some of the people who would have preferred using a different mon altogether. The opportunities to force kills or straight up win with zamazenta is much more difficult and vs well prepared opponents, its impossible regardless of how aggressive or smart you play. Also I think Lando T really needs helmet to reliably check zamazenta or else the howl set can overwhelm after some chip since eq isn't doing enough for a 2hko.

I wanna see more people talk about possible ways to handle zamazenta with future sight support since that's the real issue to me compared to it just by itself

I don't really see a reason to give an archetype that I view as the most consistent style of team a strong offensive and defensive option in zamazenta, so unless I feel a healthy form of counterplay develops in the upcoming weeks then I'd prefer to keep this thing banned from OU
 
The most concerning issue to me is easily how well it fits on the future sight + teleport archetype with either slowbro or slowking. The latter is more commonly seen since the extra special bulk has better synergy with the most common abusers being bisharp, kartana, and urshifu rapid. To be more specific the type of team i'm referring to is Slowking + Lando T + Physical Breaker + Koko/Draga/Weav/Zera + Corv/Dnite/Skarm + Heatran/Ferro. This style of team is already very difficult to handle and in my opinion the most consistent type of team since the cinder/magearna ban. I believe Zamazenta outclasses the main abusers mentioned above solely because of the ability to help handle one of the best ways to punish this style of team in opposing physical dark types. While some offensive power is lost in comparison to kartana or urshifu, its definitely worth the immense bulk/utility to give a better insurance for weavile or bisharp or to have a chance to sweep if the opponent makes a misstep.
It's nowhere near the best FutureSight abuser, Urshifu-R, Melmetal and even Gapdos are far better abusers of FutureSight due to all of them having a higher attack with LO and a more colourful movepool
 

ima

Take me to your leader
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
To be more specific the type of team i'm referring to is Slowking + Lando T + Physical Breaker + Koko/Draga/Weav/Zera + Corv/Dnite/Skarm + Heatran/Ferro. This style of team is already very difficult to handle and in my opinion the most consistent type of team since the cinder/magearna ban. I believe Zamazenta outclasses the main abusers mentioned above solely because of the ability to help handle one of the best ways to punish this style of team in opposing physical dark types. While some offensive power is lost in comparison to kartana or urshifu, its definitely worth the immense bulk/utility to give a better insurance for weavile or bisharp or to have a chance to sweep if the opponent makes a misstep.
I wanna see more people talk about possible ways to handle zamazenta with future sight support since that's the real issue to me compared to it just by itself
I don't agree with the statement of "its only been a few days, the meta will adjust" when this style of team is so versatile and that different variations can handle various threats which may be an issue.
I believe the main problem with this is the argument that 'this archetype is too consistent and difficult to face' is coming from a meta that's been adapting for months and months now, and the intertwining messages between wanting to see answers for handling zama+fs is a bit too short sighted especially if you don't necessarily agree with the fact that its only been a few days. We're still in a meta that can shift whenever it wants to and we haven't quite seen the end results of most ideas yet.

I do think there will be a time where we can answer these questions thoroughly, but I don't agree that we should be pressed for time in coming to a conclusion so quick, which makes the whole archetype thing slightly myopic to me. As it stands, we are still in a bullish meta that can evolve whenever it wants to and we haven't seen the fullest extent of what we can accomplish just yet. What I can resonate with is that I wish that this suspect could have lasted a bit longer so we can actually get a firm grasp of what we really want out of this and giving time for the ladder and players to do their thing.

I do want to bump your FS+Zama topic as I do think it's something to chew on for what we have right now, since the more this is discussed the more I can see you having a more clear answer on the subject itself. In short, what I want to get out of this post to anyone reading this is to basically not to jump to conclusions so quickly and let things pan out as it should so we can have a more informed take later on into the upcoming weeks and let innovation reward itself.
 

Niko

Banned deucer.
I don't like double posting but after reading some posts and talking to others on discord, I think my original post was insufficient at covering my main concern and also that I might be in the minority with my stance so I'll be a bit more clear on why I have the opinion that zamazenta is not a good addition for this ou metagame.

The most concerning issue to me is easily how well it fits on the future sight + teleport archetype with either slowbro or slowking. The latter is more commonly seen since the extra special bulk has better synergy with the most common abusers being bisharp, kartana, and urshifu rapid. To be more specific the type of team i'm referring to is Slowking + Lando T + Physical Breaker + Koko/Draga/Weav/Zera + Corv/Dnite/Skarm + Heatran/Ferro. This style of team is already very difficult to handle and in my opinion the most consistent type of team since the cinder/magearna ban. I believe Zamazenta outclasses the main abusers mentioned above solely because of the ability to help handle one of the best ways to punish this style of team in opposing physical dark types. While some offensive power is lost in comparison to kartana or urshifu, its definitely worth the immense bulk/utility to give a better insurance for weavile or bisharp or to have a chance to sweep if the opponent makes a misstep.

I don't agree with the statement of "its only been a few days, the meta will adjust" when this style of team is so versatile and that different variations can handle various threats which may be an issue. The way I see it, when you add a great offensive mon that eliminates one of the main ways to break through these fport teams in proactive play with strong dark types, it makes me wonder what form of healthy counterplay is even possible to prevent the tier from becoming heavily reliant on mu fishing.

The one thing about zamazenta that is different than a lot of other mons I've used is that it can't be played recklessly. Even on the future sight teams, If you make a misstep then the chances of getting kills or sweeping decrease drastically regardless of having heal bell + eterrain + fsight. This goes both ways in that patient play can oftentimes lead to checkmate positions where the opponent loses a pivotal mon or outright swept with the amount of pressure that can be forced.

I did play a bit without future sight + heal bell support and I definitely can resonate with some of the people who would have preferred using a different mon altogether. The opportunities to force kills or straight up win with zamazenta is much more difficult and vs well prepared opponents, its impossible regardless of how aggressive or smart you play. Also I think Lando T really needs helmet to reliably check zamazenta or else the howl set can overwhelm after some chip since eq isn't doing enough for a 2hko.

I wanna see more people talk about possible ways to handle zamazenta with future sight support since that's the real issue to me compared to it just by itself

I don't really see a reason to give an archetype that I view as the most consistent style of team a strong offensive and defensive option in zamazenta, so unless I feel a healthy form of counterplay develops in the upcoming weeks then I'd prefer to keep this thing banned from OU
This is a good point but it's not strictly about Zamazenta. There is no counterplay to Zeraora/Urshifu-R/Rillaboom+Future Sight as well. I just believe that Teleport in general is really unhealthy (forces a lot of 5050s, basically neutralizes Toxic, gives endless momentum, avoid trapping moves and this is only what Teleport does WITHOUT Future Sight), but since it seems to me that nobody wants to discuss about it I'm just considering Zamazenta for what it is.

0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 176-210 (57.8 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 56-66 (18.4 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 112-134 (36.8 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I understand that you're not only talking about the firepower, but this looks like the worse Future Sight abuser to me.
 

Niko

Banned deucer.
I would like to say something more but it's OT so I'm putting it into a spoiler

If we consider single threats, in SM we had way more powerful breakers than SS, Tail Glow, Z-Moves, boosted Terrains exc. but we also had ways to punish them and play around them with the entry hazards. Now, if we look at what centralized the Sword/Shield metagame along time, Zeraora, Cinderace, Volcarona, Urshifu-S, Kyurem, Urshifu-R, Rillaboom, Dragapult those are all threats that either abuse Heavy-Duty Boots or FS+Teleport. In SS, there are mainly 3 types of games: the first type is the game where someone has a Pokémon that 6-0s the opponent, and usually this is what happens. The second type it's a pick war, there's a threat in each team that is impossible to deal with for the other. In these games, the first one to get a kill usually wins the game too. I just want to focus on the third type, the (in)famous balanced war. In this case the matchup is kinda even, and in general it's a pleasure to play those games against good opponents. But not in SS. While in tiers like SM OU we have hard long term scouting and planning involved, where setting up a layer of spikes in the right moment or a good combination of midgrounds and intuition about opponent's sets can win you the game, in SS this happens SO FUCKING RARELY. SS is the tier where the counterplay to Urshifu+FS is go heatran and pray that Flame Body does his job. It's all about containing stupid broken stuff of your opponent trough 5050s and passive traits/items chips to be able to unleash your broken stupid stuff as well. We needed Cinderace so much guys, it was a great revengekiller and a good answer to HOs. The reason why we couldn't keep it in OU is just the fact that its weaknesses were neutralized by an over-abused item so stupid and unfair that I don't know how to start talking about it. Just know that we are using HOs without Stealth Rocks because it's not worth to spend a slot for that. I mean, I can't really know how the metagame would be without FuturePort and Heavy-Duty Boots, but this Zamazenta-C suspect makes me think that we're trying to stop a tornado by puffing on it. Maybe I'm not the only one thinking like that, I just wanted to share my opinion without opening another thread in Policy Review. I hope I explained myself decently, I'm not so good in English, sorry if there's any mistake.
 
Just wanted to share some calcs about two "weird" counters in addition to those listed by Finch and the others :
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 92-110 (28.3 - 33.9%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 102-122 (35.9 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (I used the sample set which is spd, the def set is even worse for Zama in that regard)
Those are PU/ZU mons that Zama can't beat. They can heal on it, put SR/status/whatever. The sub Zama set doesn't work either against them.
Those are suboptimal checks that shouldn't be used. But they do exist.

Zama-C is really not restricting teambuilding, otherwise those pokemons would be in every team, like Seismitoad used to be in every team alongside Vaporeon/Gastrodon. A lot of good poke check him, and atm I've never seen a Zama breaks through a game, he's the most hazard weak breaker we got this generation, and this is not a good generation to be weak to hazards. He also got no pivotting move, no great boosting move, no recovery...

In fact he's the funniest "banworthy" to build against so far this gen. Thanks council for that gift !

I'll work towards those reqs but I really have not seen any game where he was strong enough to warrant a ban, I think Zama could be a good OU niche pick
 

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
is a Pre-Contributor
Just wanted to share some calcs about two "weird" counters in addition to those listed by Finch and the others :
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 92-110 (28.3 - 33.9%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 102-122 (35.9 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (I used the sample set which is spd, the def set is even worse for Zama in that regard)
Those are PU/ZU mons that Zama can't beat. They can heal on it, put SR/status/whatever. The sub Zama set doesn't work either against them.
Those are suboptimal checks that shouldn't be used. But they do exist.
That is just cherrypicking. Those are two of the bulkiest Pokemon in ZU you list, and this sort of thing isn't unique to Zamazenta-C. I think you'll find Rillaboom and Kartana aren't going to beat Weezing on their own and Poliwrath is a hard counter to Weavile and Bisharp. In fact, Avalugg blanket checks most physical attackers in OU, but all of those Pokemon are barely better than Dusclops and Corsola-G.
 
That is just cherrypicking. Those are two of the bulkiest Pokemon in ZU you list, and this sort of thing isn't unique to Zamazenta-C. I think you'll find Rillaboom and Kartana aren't going to beat Weezing on their own and Poliwrath is a hard counter to Weavile and Bisharp. In fact, Avalugg blanket checks most physical attackers in OU, but all of those Pokemon are barely better than Dusclops and Corsola-G.
My point was the fact they're not OU (yet) and most likely won't be, even if Zama-C stays in the tier while they pretty much stops him cold. Which means he isn't as threatening as, say, Dracovish, who made Seismitoad/Gastrodon/Vaporeon/Prettymuchanywaterabsorber OU, and mandatory to not loose instantly. Thus, he's not that restrictive on teambuilding, and I think he deserves to say in OU, even though I do not find it good in OU.
 
My point was the fact they're not OU (yet) and most likely won't be, even if Zama-C stays in the tier while they pretty much stops him cold. Which means he isn't as threatening as, say, Dracovish, who made Seismitoad/Gastrodon/Vaporeon/Prettymuchanywaterabsorber OU, and mandatory to not loose instantly. Thus, he's not that restrictive on teambuilding, and I think he deserves to say in OU, even though I do not find it good in OU.
I didn't want to weigh in on this until I've watched things develop and formed a properly solid opinion of Zama in OU, but I've got to stop this right here because this is just wrong. To say that a mon is not broken or overly centralising just because it doesn't force the use of PU shit is not correct.
To use Dracovish, arguably the most centralising presence the tier has seen in the last three gens, as your yardstick for what should and should not be considered over-centralising is skewed. Urshifu was kept in check by phys Def Clef or MandiPex cores, all three very viable mons in OU, but was still a centralising force because of how badly it had potential to punish teams that didn't follow that structure which was incredibly restricting to team building as a whole. On top of that, it geled well with common support like FuturePort which allowed it to potentially break these cores regardless.
While it's also debatable at this stage to say that Zama is similar, I want to at least shoot down the notion that just because a more broken thing once existed in OU at a point then a slightly less broken thing should be allowable now just by direct comparison, and the expectation that forcing the use of PU mons is the point at which centralisation should be considered problematic because both of those claims are quite frankly absurd.
 
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Just wanted to share some calcs about two "weird" counters in addition to those listed by Finch and the others :
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 92-110 (28.3 - 33.9%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 102-122 (35.9 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (I used the sample set which is spd, the def set is even worse for Zama in that regard)
Those are PU/ZU mons that Zama can't beat. They can heal on it, put SR/status/whatever. The sub Zama set doesn't work either against them.
Those are suboptimal checks that shouldn't be used. But they do exist.

Zama-C is really not restricting teambuilding, otherwise those pokemons would be in every team, like Seismitoad used to be in every team alongside Vaporeon/Gastrodon. A lot of good poke check him, and atm I've never seen a Zama breaks through a game, he's the most hazard weak breaker we got this generation, and this is not a good generation to be weak to hazards. He also got no pivotting move, no great boosting move, no recovery...

In fact he's the funniest "banworthy" to build against so far this gen. Thanks council for that gift !

I'll work towards those reqs but I really have not seen any game where he was strong enough to warrant a ban, I think Zama could be a good OU niche pick
Ok and? It doesn't really mean anything if a low tier beats an OU mon, since it's their matchup against the metagame as a whole which determines their viability. For example, Xurkitree eviscerates Toxapex, but its stats other than Speed are unremarkable and it struggles against Ground types, which appear on almost every team. It's not that every team needs an Electric immunity or anything, it's just that there happens to be a Ground type to suit almost every playstyle. (That's why Dracovish is banned but Dracozolt is okay.) Raw stats alone don't really mean that much.
 
Figured I’d give my thoughts on the Zama-C suspect.
:ss/Zamazenta-Crowned:
So in practice I think Zama has turned out to be a lot less powerful than many people, myself included, thought it would be. Unfortunately I think this has resulted in a lot of jumping to conclusions that Zama isn’t broken since it’s less good than we thought, rather than people actually looking at it properly. Everyone seems to be in agreement that this is the best set:

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Howl
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash/Ice Fang
- Wild Charge

I won’t go into Jolly vs Adamant or tweaks to the EV spread because they aren’t really relevant to most matchups. Looking at mons that are being used as counters to this set, we have Buzzwole, Zapdos, Volcarona, Pex, Slowbro, the metal birds, Lando-T and Garchomp. Firstly I’d like to debunk the idea that Lando-T and Chomp are reliable answers. Even with Behemoth Bash over Ice Fang, this happens at +1.

+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-255 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Garchomp: 210-247 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And here’s what Lando-T does back. (Garchomp does even less)

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 146-174 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO

This isn’t factoring in Grassy Terrain support, which makes these two ‘checks’ setup fodder for Zama. I have had several games on ladder where I‘ve used Lando-T to setup on with Zama, this isn’t just theorymoning, it happens and quite often.
Slowbro is also not a reliable counter because it gets 2HKOed by +1 Wild Charge. If your way of dealing with Zama is ‘click scald and pray it burns’ you’ll lose 70% of the time.
Volcarona must run suboptimal sets with serious bulk investment in order to reliably check Zama, else it loses 50% of the time if it doesn’t get Flame Body. The metal birds also need to run ID sets to beat Zama, which are generally inferior to standard sets. That leaves our list of hard counters at Zapdos, Buzzwole and Pex. Pex must run Haze and Zapdos gets 2HKOed by Ice Fang at +1.
In practice, a couple of softer checks can usually keep Zama at bay long enough for it to get chipped down, but I thought it would be useful to illustrate how Zama can easily break past many of its supposed counters. I wouldn’t necessarily argue that it’s overcentralising based on offensive power, but I think some pre-Zama teams will not be viable if it drops.

I believe the main issue with Zama may actually prove to be its status as a Trick/Knock Off absorber. This is mostly seen to be a good thing, given that the only other mon that even comes close to this is Sticky Hold Gastrodon. In the past couple of gens, Megas and Z-move users have been able to double as Trick/Knock Off absorbers, whereas there’s currently nothing like that in SS OU. If Zama were to drop, it would become pretty much the only mon in the tier with this kind of utility. We’re only a couple of days into the suspect, but I’m worried that this would lead to every other team running Zama to prevent Trick/Knock Off, which would obviously be unhealthy. I think Zama may be overcentralising in this regard rather than overcentralising it terms of its offensive capabilities.

It’s also worth noting we‘re only a couple of days into the suspect, and we‘ve only just started playing with Zama. While Howl+3 attacks is currently considered the best set, it’s possible there’s some overlooked set that takes advantage of Zama‘s crazy stats and turns it broken. However, I do genuinely think that Zama’s ability to prevent Trick/Knock Off like nothing else can will prove unhealthy. For now I‘m of the opinion that Zama-C should remain banned.
 
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I've been playing Wish support on a new account, not really for getting the suspect test but rather see how the mon is (I don't even have the OUTK in the account's name) and I have to say this mon is kinda good.

I don't know if it does really deserve the ban, if I'm being honest, but if it stays it will surely be a top tier and a really good counter to Veil teams, Rillaboom and can win 1v1 a Sand Rush Excadrill or a banded Barraskewda on rain.

It also has a very good sinergy with Slow-twin support + Wish Blissey, so it can be one of the new balance's core mons. Zamazenta can't drop to any unboosted (usual) move in the tier, so a Blissey's Wish is always going to make switching in 0 risk (excepting status), making it much easier to set up multiple times or just hit everything in the field with your STABs.

Zamazenta is going to shape the tier if it stays, which it's isn't that bad if you ask me (it helps aganist knock off spam, 130 base speed tier on a defensive/sweeper mon it's a blessing) and it wins threats like previously metioned Rillaboom, Zeraora or Nidoking 1v1.

Even though it's good, it's not unbeatable. Wild Charge is the only way to beat the Iron Birds and Bulky Waters, and the recoil + Rocky helmet on a mon that can't hold even Leftovers stops it from sweeping quite quickly. It struggles vs Hippo and while it's fast, it can't do nothing vs Scarfers or Specs Koko Volt Switching out.

I am being biased saying this but I think it's for the better to Zamazenta to stay unbanned. At least for now, of course. OU really needed an offensive rillaboom answer and Zamazenta fits in perfectly.

Also, if you want to try my team here you have it.
:zamazenta-crowned: :slowbro: :blissey: :nidoking: :ferrothorn: :skarmory:
Zamaheat-Crowned (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Howl
- Wild Charge

Slowheat (Slowbro) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Slack Off
- Teleport

Blissey no es heat (Blissey) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

Nidoheat (Nidoking) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock

Ferroheat (Ferrothorn) @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Knock Off
- Bulldoze

Heatmory (Skarmory) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Def / 176 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind
 
I don't like double posting but after reading some posts and talking to others on discord, I think my original post was insufficient at covering my main concern and also that I might be in the minority with my stance so I'll be a bit more clear on why I have the opinion that zamazenta is not a good addition for this ou metagame.

The most concerning issue to me is easily how well it fits on the future sight + teleport archetype with either slowbro or slowking. The latter is more commonly seen since the extra special bulk has better synergy with the most common abusers being bisharp, kartana, and urshifu rapid. To be more specific the type of team i'm referring to is Slowking + Lando T + Physical Breaker + Koko/Draga/Weav/Zera + Corv/Dnite/Skarm + Heatran/Ferro. This style of team is already very difficult to handle and in my opinion the most consistent type of team since the cinder/magearna ban. I believe Zamazenta outclasses the main abusers mentioned above solely because of the ability to help handle one of the best ways to punish this style of team in opposing physical dark types. While some offensive power is lost in comparison to kartana or urshifu, its definitely worth the immense bulk/utility to give a better insurance for weavile or bisharp or to have a chance to sweep if the opponent makes a misstep.

I don't agree with the statement of "its only been a few days, the meta will adjust" when this style of team is so versatile and that different variations can handle various threats which may be an issue. The way I see it, when you add a great offensive mon that eliminates one of the main ways to break through these fport teams in proactive play with strong dark types, it makes me wonder what form of healthy counterplay is even possible to prevent the tier from becoming heavily reliant on mu fishing.

The one thing about zamazenta that is different than a lot of other mons I've used is that it can't be played recklessly. Even on the future sight teams, If you make a misstep then the chances of getting kills or sweeping decrease drastically regardless of having heal bell + eterrain + fsight. This goes both ways in that patient play can oftentimes lead to checkmate positions where the opponent loses a pivotal mon or outright swept with the amount of pressure that can be forced.

I did play a bit without future sight + heal bell support and I definitely can resonate with some of the people who would have preferred using a different mon altogether. The opportunities to force kills or straight up win with zamazenta is much more difficult and vs well prepared opponents, its impossible regardless of how aggressive or smart you play. Also I think Lando T really needs helmet to reliably check zamazenta or else the howl set can overwhelm after some chip since eq isn't doing enough for a 2hko.

I wanna see more people talk about possible ways to handle zamazenta with future sight support since that's the real issue to me compared to it just by itself

I don't really see a reason to give an archetype that I view as the most consistent style of team a strong offensive and defensive option in zamazenta, so unless I feel a healthy form of counterplay develops in the upcoming weeks then I'd prefer to keep this thing banned from OU
I've been using Zamazenta on screens HO and personally find it underwhelming so far, but definitely have not made up my mind yet. I think you and others raise some potentially good points concerning Future Sight abuse, but I was wondering if you (or anyone) has any good replays to show that demonstrate this. Not trying to be annoying asking, genuinely just curious
 
I have played maybe 20 games in this meta with it allowed, and I just want to say I think that while annoying, it isn't like spectrier or shifu or mage in terms of broken. Sorry scratch that it isn't annoying at all. It doesn't do enough damage with only howl, and gets chipped too much, due to weaknesses to fighting and ground. It also can't hold lefties, and has no recovery. In conclusion, its nowhere near too much for the tier, and it should be unbanned in OU
 
I'll be voting to ban Zama-c.

I was motivated to get reqs after not having done a suspect test all gen because this pokemon is total nonsense and will destroy any chance of having a reasonable metagame. If it were to be released it would be analogous to unbanning M-sabeleye from Gen 6 OU, that is the level of metagame shift we are currently contemplating when we consider tiering Zama-C. It was highly apt, imo, that this suspect test was introduced on April Fool's day.

There is no historical analogue for such a pokemon existing in OU, and while it is misguided to look in ubers for a pokemon with similar characteristics, I would point out that no such pokemon exists.

Zama-C is a very fast mon with staggering defenses (I remember vividly having to calc in one of my games, to see if shadow ball from gengar would kill it at 50% after a spdef drop), steel typing, and quite good stab offensive coverage. What its presence means is that traditional heavy offenses are forced to make big trade-offs in order to face Zama-C when it is slapped onto a stall team or an offensive team. Against stall you have to contend with a pokemon that threatens to KO your sweepers, and sacrificing 2 of your mons to break through it often leaves you too depleted to make a breakthrough once its gone from the field and you can finally set up. Against opposing offense you have to make the same sacrifices but there can still be a small compensation in so far as your opponent's team is frailer and careful choices will still leave you with winning chances after these sacrifices.

My worry is that zama-c requires offensive teams to devote too many resources to become safe against it in the teambuilder, and thus leaves offensive teams too disjointed to break the stall formulas that will emerge, stall formulas that run unaware pokemon, blissy, toxapex and corviknight (and with Zama-C in Ou they will also start running it in their core). With Zama-c in OU, the future of offense teams will center on it, with teams that are able to get around Zama-c being significantly less able to break stall and match-ups between offensive teams being significantly determined by who wins a Zama-C vs Zama-C speed tie or who is able to conserve their zama-c until the end game (although there is skill in the later). I do not think the metagame we are left with once Zama-C is in Ou is worth giving up our current metagame.

Minor point on 'counterplay':

Volcarona is garbage offensive counter play, offensive teams that run it can pretty much give up on breaking stall when the basic archetype these days is a lead and 5 physical sweepers. Same goes for Zapdos btw. Adding volc to check Zama-C means giving up the advantage you normally have because stall teams run Blissy and it does not play against your physical sweepers, thereby ensuring stall begins at a soft 5-6 disadvantage against offense. Since you have to run roost and invest in defense to consistently answer Zama-C, your volcarona is also garbage against other offensive teams where it is set-up fodder for Garchomp, DD Dragapult, Dragonite, etc. Having set-up fodder mons like defensive Volcarona is how matchups between offensive teams are lost and devoting resources to run a special attacker that is bad against offense and stall is a massive nerf to the recent offensive archetypes that have been used in Gen 8 OU.

If nothing else, I hope this post will motivate better explanations for why we should want to unban Zama-C and shine a light on its implications for team match-ups.
^ To all pro-unban, this is the argument I think you should try to counter-argue first.

I believe Myzozoa has much wisdom in these underrated points, and in general OU discussion over the years I haven't seen nearly enough feedback from veteran Smogonites that addresses this kind of thinking.

Like if you think either of specs pult / zapdos / bulkarona / scarf kartana / scarf lando are enough offense to cover Zama and other bulky mons , then I don't think you've put enough time into trying to win with consistent offenses that cover a wide variety of styles.
 

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
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I agree. I think we should keep using our current teams that include Zama-C counterplay, but consider how they function outside the Zama-C matchup. Whilst it is obvious Lando gets worn down more quickly by forgoing Leftovers for Rocky Helmet, does that impair its ability to check other threats in the metagame? What happens when a Rillaboom or Kartana forces in your Volcarona and Knocks it so Zama can beat it later on? As Zama is limiting Weavile and Bisharp to some extent, do teams feel more Dragapult-weak without them? Are Tapu Lele and Heatran running even more freely now Slowbro is becoming favoured over Slowking again?
 
Ok so now we have Zamazenta. I thoroughly enjoyed the ladder for it's suspect test and will give my thought on it.

I, like many others, initially believed that Zamazenta would work best on Screens HO and even got the reqs with a screens team. Zama was pretty underwhelming there and I got the reqs more so due to the sheer ridiculous effectiveness of Lucha, Chomp and Pult under screens. I wouldn't recommend using Zama on Screens now. It easily gets walled/ chipped down and isn't the kind of mon that can make progress meaningful in one go. It wastes it's massive bulk and makes it's power seem a lot worse than it is (more on it later).

Now, I believe the best way to use Zama is with Wish support and Futureport, possibly even Heal Bell on a Balance structure. I have been having a lot of success with this set -

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Howl
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge
- Ice Fang

This set out speeds base 110s. Rest in HP and Max Attack Adamant. Giving up Behemoth Bash does suck against fairies especially Koko and Slowking Galar and some niche ghost types but Ice Fang has is better against specifically Zapdos but also Lando and Chomp

This team structure brings out the best in Zama out of all the ones being used currently IMO. This team puts Zama's absolutely immense bulk to full use. Setting up Howls and then attacking and still being able to receive the wishes later. It can do this multiple times partially also due to it's speed giving it a jump on a HUGE portion of the meta game. This also brings out the best of Zama's offensives when it gets time to pick it's spots and systematically break down it's checks with the help of chip from it's teammates instead of going in for the boom or bust sweep once against a full health team.

I will give some calcs to show how difficult it becomes to counter this mon -

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 276-328 (72.2 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Garchomp: 400-472 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 151-178 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 123-145 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 208-246 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 81-96 (25 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 194-229 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 241-285 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


These are a few of the mons that are generally good checks to Zama but with Wish Heal Bell support + Futureport on a balance, these mons are actually threatened by it. In my experience, my opps generally struggled immensely against this mon. It had to be answered defensively because it is still very fast and was strong enough to kill offensive mons. A few faster mons barely scratch it like Torn T, Pult, Koko, Weavile etc. so it was very oppressive to play against this thing.

Some people outright lost to Zama + Wish Heal Bell support. You need at least 2 phys def counters from the above list to simply not outright lose to this combo, forget trying to keep it in check with just one. This is where just the sheer stats come into play. Such team styles were incredibly popular in the post home meta game but got phased by the power creep. This mon is the reason that playstyle can work again. It prevents it's team from getting overwhelmed, constantly taking back the momentum due to it being extremely difficult to out offense it. He can put the other team on defensive which is god send for wish teams as they have to contend with almost always playing on the defense and potentially getting overloaded.

Speaking of defensive utility, this mon isn't only restrictive but also detrimental to other mons. A concern was being shown in some of the above posts that it invalidates other mons like Bish, Weavile, Scizor etc. but I can assure you this, with Wish support, it does that consistently, relentlessly and throughout the match. These 3 poor souls really can't get anything going at all until this mon is alive. These 3 were just invalidated too hard due to Zama very comfortably switching into these, outspeeding them and threatening them with an OHKO or 2HKO but it honestly can switch into a large swathe of the metagame and threaten to OHKO but it has to be a little bit careful switching into these. These include Kartana, Melly, Ferro, Kyurem, Magnezone, Rillaboom, Ttar, Torn T, Lando, Chomp (On non EQ but it can easily take at least 1) etc.

I have only talked about Wish yet but I had also initially mentioned Futureport. It is there for mons like Koko, Volc Pex and Buzzwole. Not much to say here, everyone knows who good Future Sight is especially paired with fighting types. But it is definitely good to note that it is not too overly reliant on Future Sight to break. It is only required to break some tough mons.

I previously mentioned how it seems weaker than it is and the reason for that it always had to try to beat it's checks (most of which resist it's dual stab) from relatively high healths. I realized how powerful it is on this team. Firstly, it's checks can be weakened by rocks, Knock off (Additionally knocking off Rocky Helmets goes a long way), toxics etc. and it has multiple chances to break them down. Secondly, it's damage output against your average mons is still very good. 130 Adamant is not too shabby at all even without an item.

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 386-456 (106.6 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 351-414 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 296-350 (93.3 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 271-321 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 137-162 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO




The +1 Calc mons are decently naturally bulky mons. Being able to OHKO them at +1 is huge for it. Lele is a mon that was looking like trouble without Bash but Wild Charge 2HKOs on it's own.


I implore everyone to try it in this team structure. It seems rather unremarkable on HO but on this it is straight up dominating. I simply can't do it justice by just making a post here, it must be tried out especially if you used it it on HO preivously. Till now the discussion has mostly been about how it is potentially unhealthy and is problematic for offense. and mentions of it's power with futureport but this team style is a threat to even balance and stall builds. Zama is absolutely overwhelming on this archetype. This genuinely can raise the question of whether Zama is too much for OU on it's own instead of it's effect being unhealthy. I will be voting BAN on Zama solely due to it's restrictive effect and dominance on this archetype.
 
Figured I’d give my thoughts on the Zama-C suspect.
:ss/Zamazenta-Crowned:
So in practice I think Zama has turned out to be a lot less powerful than many people, myself included, thought it would be. Unfortunately I think this has resulted in a lot of jumping to conclusions that Zama isn’t broken since it’s less good than we thought, rather than people actually looking at it properly. Everyone seems to be in agreement that this is the best set:

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Howl
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash/Ice Fang
- Wild Charge

I won’t go into Jolly vs Adamant or tweaks to the EV spread because they aren’t really relevant to most matchups. Looking at mons that are being used as counters to this set, we have Buzzwole, Zapdos, Volcarona, Pex, Slowbro, the metal birds, Lando-T and Garchomp. Firstly I’d like to debunk the idea that Lando-T and Chomp are reliable answers. Even with Behemoth Bash over Ice Fang, this happens at +1.

+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-255 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Garchomp: 210-247 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And here’s what Lando-T does back. (Garchomp does even less)

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 146-174 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO

This isn’t factoring in Grassy Terrain support, which makes these two ‘checks’ setup fodder for Zama. I have had several games on ladder where I‘ve used Lando-T to setup on with Zama, this isn’t just theorymoning, it happens and quite often.
Slowbro is also not a reliable counter because it gets 2HKOed by +1 Wild Charge. If your way of dealing with Zama is ‘click scald and pray it burns’ you’ll lose 70% of the time.
Volcarona must run suboptimal sets with serious bulk investment in order to reliably check Zama, else it loses 50% of the time if it doesn’t get Flame Body. The metal birds also need to run ID sets to beat Zama, which are generally inferior to standard sets. That leaves our list of hard counters at Zapdos, Buzzwole and Pex. Pex must run Haze and Zapdos gets 2HKOed by Ice Fang at +1.
In practice, a couple of softer checks can usually keep Zama at bay long enough for it to get chipped down, but I thought it would be useful to illustrate how Zama can easily break past many of its supposed counters. I wouldn’t necessarily argue that it’s overcentralising based on offensive power, but I think some pre-Zama teams will not be viable if it drops.

I believe the main issue with Zama may actually prove to be its status as a Trick/Knock Off absorber. This is mostly seen to be a good thing, given that the only other mon that even comes close to this is Sticky Hold Gastrodon. In the past couple of gens, Megas and Z-move users have been able to double as Trick/Knock Off absorbers, whereas there’s currently nothing like that in SS OU. If Zama were to drop, it would become pretty much the only mon in the tier with this kind of utility. We’re only a couple of days into the suspect, but I’m worried that this would lead to every other team running Zama to prevent Trick/Knock Off, which would obviously be unhealthy. I think Zama may be overcentralising in this regard rather than overcentralising it terms of its offensive capabilities.

It’s also worth noting we‘re only a couple of days into the suspect, and we‘ve only just started playing with Zama. While Howl+3 attacks is currently considered the best set, it’s possible there’s some overlooked set that takes advantage of Zama‘s crazy stats and turns it broken. However, I do genuinely think that Zama’s ability to prevent Trick/Knock Off like nothing else can will prove unhealthy. For now I‘m of the opinion that Zama-C should remain banned.
I just want to correct a point you made, zama will never be at +1 when you are in against lando because of intimidate. This makes the calc look like this
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 159-187 (41.6 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, lando usually 2hkos after chip(10% basically guarentees after rocks)
Meanwhile, if you try to chip on switch the damage will make minimal progress because of leftovers(12%)
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 106-126 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
So lando basically sitting on this is definitely the case for most of its common sets. And if grassy is up, you could easily uturn out after taking a hit to a mon that can hit more, or you could fish for a burn/haze. Also you all seem to forget that wild charge has recoil, zama can easy wear itself out after wildcharging a bit(bro has regenerator so it can just switch). Lando into bro into lando can work until terrain runs out.
 
Alright time for my thoughts on Zamazenta.

I was always under the assumption that this mon should never touch OU and from the initial few days of this suspect, yeah I feel its way too much. This mon has absolutely absurd stats with 130/128 offensives outspeeding a large amount of the meta and hitting with powerful 100BP/120BP stabs and with 92/145/145 giving it essentially Cresselia level bulk.

What became more apparent to me however, is just the complete lack of options for dealing with it, which is further made worse by the wide amount of team support it can abuse, but lets look at it alone first. Barring Volcarona, Buzzwole and Quagsire, every single "Counter" either loses depending on coverage or relies on luck to win which I don't find healthy. Pex and Slowbro look solid at first glance for dealing with it but they both lose to it 1v1. In Pex's case, if the Zama does howl when Pex switches in, its then just mindgames with Recover/Haze against Wild Charge/Howl. If you click Recover as they howl again, you lose because they click wild charge twice and either kill you on the second hit and force you out, at which point they get a free KO or could go for game by Howling on something else, and if you Haze as they Wild Charge, then the next Wild Charge also kills and the above repeats itself. Slowbro can't Haze and does nothing back with Scald, can only threaten with burns or Teleports out which doesn't do anything other then allow Zama to read that and boost further with Howl making it harder to deal with.

Corviknight like Slowbro doesn't win unless its ID + Body Press, but that is hardly a splashable set and even then can't deal with Zama without risking rolls. Hippowdon on the surface looks to be a good option but even with Whirlwind it can fail. At +1 CC has a 98% chance to 2HKO Hippo, and like with Toxapex creates a mindgame situation where Slacking off as they Howl again means they can boost to +4 and easily OHKO but if you phase as they do 70%, then Hippo is no longer an option and this applies to Zapdos if they carry Ice Fang, though the risk is higher due to Discharge + Static. With options like Tankchomp and Lando, they also don't switch into Ice Fang and I don't need to go into more detail for them. The point I'm trying to make here is all these counters are wildly inconsistent. They either assume you don't make a single misplay, rely on you getting lucky status or hope it lacks the right coverage. This makes dealing with Zamazenta very constrictive as you have to prep multiple counters to even have a chance of dealing with it.

Lets take a break for a bit and address Zamazenta's "largest flaw" being the lack of longevity. This is a tiny flaw compared to the lack of longevity in other offensive mons. Its typing gives it a x4 resistance to Stealth Rocks, immunity to Toxic Spikes, poison and an immunity to sand. Knock Off is also unboosted due to its item in addition to it resisting it, and it packs a x4 resistance to the omnipresence U-Turn. Combine that with its free +1 defense boost and Zamazenta is still living longer then most most offensive mons without recovery, which is the majority of them. While Rocky Helmet does exist, and can help in wearing Zamazenta down in theory, in practice its not hard to remove or see other items on those Counters. Pex/Hippo is knock fodder and isn't hard to knock at all in games as they usually sponge them for their team. Slowbro wants HDB or else it has to immediately switch out after the first hit with Hazards + Wild Charge making it incapable of switching into even AOA sets. Corviknight can't run it or else its unusable in any game with a Magnezone and mons like Zapdos obviously want HDB meaning its only really Lando/Garchomp that will deal good amounts of chip with that item, especially chomp even if it does die in 2 hits with Ice Fang.

For me, what pushed Zamazenta over the edge was just how impossible it feels to handle with the wide amount of team support available to it. Obviously, I'm aware that other mons have access to this as well but it feels much harder to take into account for Zamazenta due to just how much it becomes. Here are some of the best examples

Grassy Terrain - Gives Zamazenta a bit of recovery even with SRs up and more noticeably halves the damage from EQ easily allow it to Howl up on mons like Hippo/Lando/Chomp and win.

Electric Terrain - Boosts Wild Charge so Pex, Slowbro and Corviknight can't even safely switch in, allowing for free Howls

Screens/Veil - Normally used by Koko to also give the terrain boosts, but makes its bulk even more absurd so it can safely setup and is harder to revenge kill with choice scarf mons/faster mons

Future Sight - Users such as Slowking have great synergy as they resist fire and fighting while Zamazenta resists dark, grass and bug while Future Sight removes Buzzwole and even Quagsire as an option for counterplay leaving only Volc as the only true safe option.

My final point is that even without team support, dealing with Zamazenta requires the counters (although inconsistent) to be essentially at full health and it is very easy to make sure all but pex get worn down. Pokemon like Lando and Corviknight see a lot of action in games and won't be strictly on Zamazenta duty and take rocks damage. Its also very easy to force a situation where they have no choice but to get worn down by pairing with other dangerous physical threats such as Urshifu-RS so Zamazenta can clean up later.

TLDR; I find Zamazenta to be a broken pokemon. Its stats and coverage allow it to potentially sweep through teams alongside having the insane bulk to make it difficult to stop. Most of its counterplay is both inconsistent and depends on them having full HP leading to multiple Zamazenta counters needed on a team which is something I don't find healthy. This combined with how well it can abuse various different team supports, all of which completely invalidating several common counters that could be used to deal with it is why I will be voting ban when I get reqs.
 
Some people are viewing this test in a very one dimensional-way, listing a bunch of checks/counters and just putting zama's base stats which I feel like it is the incorrect way to judge whether or not zama should be unbanned. The reasons for a pokemon to be banned (for me at least) are:
1) It is too powerful for the tier. (Performance in Game)
2) It is inherently uncompetitive.
3) It is excessively overcentralizing. (Performance in Builder)
So I'll go point by point trying to express my feelings of zamazenta.

1) Is it too powerful for the tier?
This is the point that the majority of the posts are talking about and it is a big fat NO, its game to game performance is just underwhelming, it cant break shit, gets chipped WAY too much and its "incredible" bulk doesnt really patch up anything. Even when it supposedly anihilates HO teams most of the times it just trades with something and dies (assuming they dont have a bulkarona cus then you are just dead weight)
I played multiple times against teams that had zamazenta with wish, heal bell and f sight support (in the same team) and while yes it made it a bit better it didnt take the fact that zamazenta was mediocre and that same kind of support could be applied to every other breaker with a better payoff, as even with all of that playing around zama was easy and sometimes the greed of my opponents to make zama work ended in they losing the game. And man its not only defensive mons but zama can lose the 1v1 against dragapult, victini and landorous, I agree with all of the above posts that say zama is trash in gameplay.
I'll admit that most people are using zamazenta wrong, like its some kind of unkillable beast with enormous breaking potential, and I'll admit that when people use it correctly it can be truly terrifying, but thats kind of universal with every good mon dont you think?

2) Is it uncompetitive?
This one is easy, NO. It doesnt have any traits that go against the established metagame, u know the classics, evasion boosting, trapping or unfair/hax reliant.
And it isnt even like its some kind of "No skill mon" as it needs to be played extremely carefully or it will enter range of a lot attacks, it isnt even like it completely invalidates mons like weavile or scizor by just switching in as it will get heavily chipped/u-turned on. (that last little tangent isnt really a reason to ban it but I figured that mentioning it wasnt really detrimental)

3) Is it excessively overcentralizing?
Now this is the most interesting point and the biggest point that pro-ban has against anti-ban, as the addition of zamazenta would theoretically warp the metagame in an unhealthy and generally worse state than it is. Lets see.
Zamazenta is honestly not a mon that is very easy to slap on a team, as the role it performs is somewhat especific and a lot of times zamazenta can be replaced with others breakers/bulky mons. It is clunky to build around and requires a bunch of support as zama can't pull its own weight, a lot of people have been talking about how fsight + zama is almost impossible to handle but the problem isnt zama, the problem is how f sight makes every breaker in the tier (even a mediocre one like zama) into an unstopabble mon.
So the argument that teambuilding against zama + f sight is very hard, is in my opinion an invalid argument.
However even with all of this said I still think the burden zama puts in the builder is way too much (not only on offensive teams), THE PROBLEM ISNT ZAMAZENTA ITSELF, THE PROBLEM IS THE DYNAMICS IT FORCES.
All of the innovation and new teamstyles/cores that we've been seeing pop up will be forced into turning into very similar defensive cores with very similar breakers, the unban of zamazenta will lead into a domino effect that will make the meta for stale and restrictive. (similar to dracovish but to a lesser extent)
Zamazenta by itself is honestly fine, but its introduction will only make the meta unhealthier and restrictive without opening the doors for positive innovation, in my opinion zamazenta enforces lazy teambuilding in every other team that doesnt use zamazenta.
If some of you couldnt guess im leaning towards BAN, however I think that unbanning zamazenta isnt the craziest move ever and I can change sides tbh.


TLDR: Zamazenta is an underwhelming mon in practice and it will never sweep prepared teams by itself, however the dynamics and teambuilding restrictions that it brings are unhealthy for the metagame and undo all of the development that we've been seeing lately, into a more stale and generally worse position than it is already.
(Also F sight is kinda dumb)


Why are people using beheamoth bash in zamazenta?
It genuinly is a trash move, like i guess that if your opp has both a fini and a landorous it is a good middle ground move but cmon, you are super fast and bulky, so even if they go lando on your wild charge you still kill them with ice fang or u know u can also switch out, not like zama has trouble getting in, who cares if you cant ohko clefable whats it gonna do to you, its a clefable.
STOP USING BEHEAMOTH BASH
 
I played multiple times against teams that had zamazenta with wish, heal bell and f sight support (in the same team) and while yes it made it a bit better it didnt take the fact that zamazenta was mediocre and that same kind of support could be applied to every other breaker with a better payoff, as even with all of that playing around zama was easy and sometimes the greed of my opponents to make zama work ended in they losing the game. And man its not only defensive mons but zama can lose the 1v1 against dragapult, victini and landorous, I agree with all of the above posts that say zama is trash in gameplay.
I'll admit that most people are using zamazenta wrong, like its some kind of unkillable beast with enormous breaking potential, and I'll admit that when people use it correctly it can be truly terrifying, but thats kind of universal with every good mon dont you think?
See but that is the thing, a lot of people are still using just like you said. It's barely been 2 days but still we have found a much better way to utilize it on wish balances instead of HO and it has gotten exponentially better in practice. As more and more people shift to that it will approach that broken territory even more. We can't count on it always being used in a sub-optimal way. If it is broken in only even in one of it's iterations, we can count on it becoming the norm eventually. I agree it is terrifying to face when used correctly and eventually all of them are going to be placed that way.

Also I disagree that wish heal bell support is better on any singular other mon available in OU. Only Zama brings the bulk, speed and power that can consistently defensively check offensive mons while offensively setting up and breaking. Doing all this with great speed and the ability to reliably get wishes. Wish Heal bell teams are SIGNIFICANTLLY worse without Zama and just tend to get overwhelmed by Regen cores + offensive pressure.
Sure there might be stronger mons available but having the bulk and speed to make use of them is also very important.
 
My laddering has been an absolute nightmare, I basically took a break between suspects 4-9 and I have forgotten how to play. In the meantime, from what I have seen so far I can confidently say ZamaC is not broken, it’s not even particularly good. I’d say A- or A rank at best. There’s a few matchups where the opposing team structure allows it to be a competent revenge killer but it’s just not particularly strong and there’s better things to use with Futureport.

OU is usually insulated from drops unlike the lower tiers. Sometimes stuff drops into a lower tier that shakes up the meta dramatically and makes mons and playstyles less viable (see Mamoswine going in and out of UU over the years). The meta can adapt to big dog and if certain things fall out of favor, IMO that’s why we have a tiering system to begin with. If I can manage to scrape reqs together (please kill me) I will be voting unban. :psywoke:
 
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From what I have used of it, zam is an interesting mon for bulky balance teams. But from what I can see it is really not that restrictive, what I do see is it encouraging a ton more offensive counterplay, Toxapex is gonna start running scald more frequently so it can do something to zam without just being a sitting duck, Kartana is gonna be really good for ripping through zam (Especially with sash, swords dance, and sacred sword), lando usage will go up and will see more u-turn usage just to cripple it, Victini and Volcarona appreciate its presence since Victini can burn it with will-o-wisp and proceed to spam powerful searing shots without issue, and Volcarona can possibly try to set up on it and tear through it. I do not believe it is overcentralizing, broken, or uncompetitive, as it encourages new types of hyper offense or balance cores to beat the new balance cores with Zamazenta-C. It is not overcentralizing due to the fact that it is something any team can prep for. If I had the requirements to vote, I would say stay unbanned.
 
JasonOfTheBest21 said:
I just want to correct a point you made, zama will never be at +1 when you are in against lando because of intimidate. This makes the calc look like this
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 159-187 (41.6 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, lando usually 2hkos after chip(10% basically guarentees after rocks)
Meanwhile, if you try to chip on switch the damage will make minimal progress because of leftovers(12%)
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 106-126 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
So lando basically sitting on this is definitely the case for most of its common sets. And if grassy is up, you could easily uturn out after taking a hit to a mon that can hit more, or you could fish for a burn/haze. Also you all seem to forget that wild charge has recoil, zama can easy wear itself out after wildcharging a bit(bro has regenerator so it can just switch). Lando into bro into lando can work until terrain runs out.
These are all good points, but pivoting (Teleport/U-turn on the switch) makes it quite easy to bring in Zama without getting hit by Intimidate. So yes Intimidate is helpful for Lando-T, but it’s easy to play around, especially if you Howl on the switch into Lando, which essentially puts you at neutral. Yes, Wild Charge has recoil, but Grassy Terrain can minimise this and relying on Regenerator to keep Bro healthy means you need another mon that can switch into +1 Zama. As some others have pointed out in the above posts, Wish/Heal Bell support is another option for dealing with burns or recoil damage.
 
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