Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Fish Out of Water

[McCoolDude]

First off, I do play this meta

Secondly, Whilst the dragons can't tank fish's hits as effectively, dragapult and scarf hydreigon can OHKO it and out speed it with Draco meteor.

These are checks. These are also both hard countered by the S+ Tier Mon in this meta, Clefable. They force Vish out after it gets a kill, but are forced to click u-turn for momentum (which can still be valuable!). This is the entire point of the suspect - Vish has inconsistent counters, at best.

Yes, while Darmanitan is rocks weak, you can get rid of the rocks with rapid spin, defog, etc. I never said Darmanitan could beat draco. I just said it deals more damage. Feel free to correct me on this.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 442-522 (109.4 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 532-627 (131.6 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Consider yourself corrected.

While 75 base speed with 252 speeds EV can out speed every wall in the game, it still gets out sped by almost offensive threat in the game. It gets OHKOed by a modest togekiss and OHKOed by mimikyu OHKOs it after rocks damage, chip damage, etc. Plus, mimikyu has disguise, so it can set up swords dance or just kill it with Play rough. If it's scarfed, it's walled out by the walls of the meta like Ferro and Pex, so it's a lose-lose situation.

You are listing offensive checks to a wallbreaker. Physdef ferro/pex/toad being basically required on each team is the entire point of this suspect.

I run my seismatoad the way I do so i can check Cinderace, Zeraora and vish all at once. It has Atk and Def investment with an Assault Vest so it can can cover tons of mons like T-tar, tanks exca, drams, etc. I mentioned Grim because it can use priority Thunder wave and half the power of rend instantly. I mentioned G-Corso and Geist because Geist has great potential with Stored power and almost all of it's counters can be beaten with fast fighting types like Bhawlucha and the swords of justice. G-corsola can basically become invincible once it gets going, with the exception of toxic stalling. But you can often tell what pokes run toxic and which ones don't.

I originally made a joke here, but coming back to it: what?

Also, what dragons get outside by the band set?

Anything below 107 base speed is outsped by band dracovish unless it invests to outspeed it. If they are investing to live the hit (and therefore be able to switch in consistently) they are not investing in speed.

 

[James2464]

you could run the less viable but still definitely usable Jellicent, Gastrodon, or Vaporion.

This is something everyone ignores. People act like there are almost no counters to dracovish when there are tons of lesser used ones. Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Kommo-o, and Seismitoad are the most used ones but there are tons of other pokemon that counter Dracovish including Gastro, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Mantine, and Celebi along with many who prevent Fishous Rend spam such as Heliolisk, Roost Kyurem, Appletun, and Toxicroak.

IMO Celebi is one of the best Dracovish answers since it has Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Recovery, and Momentum with U-Turn combined with Natural Cure making it hard to wear down

If anything, banning Dracovish would make the meta even more stale and less diverse since all these pokemon with potential niches would become unviable

Response to below post: Most pokemon fear T Wave from Celebi and can't safely switch in so the Dracovish user would most likely switch into a defensive pokemon like corviknight instead of going hard into something like Dragapult meaning clicking recover is usually fairly safe and without rocks Celebi can switch out and come back next time unless the Dracovish gets very high rolls

 

[McCoolDude]

This is something everyone ignores. People act like there are almost no counters to dracovish when there are tons of lesser used ones. Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Kommo-o, and Seismitoad are the most used ones but there are tons of other pokemon that counter Dracovish including Gastro, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Mantine, and Celebi along with many who prevent Fishous Rend spam such as Heliolisk, Roost Kyurem, Appletun, and Toxicroak.

IMO Celebi is one of the best Dracovish answers since it has Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Recovery, and Momentum with U-Turn combined with Natural Cure making it hard to wear down

If anything, banning Dracovish would make the meta even more stale and less diverse since all these pokemon with potential niches would become unviable

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Celebi: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I made a celebi set that outspeeds band vish for this comment. Between rocks, rend, and lefties, celebi takes over half from switching into rend, and immediately gives up momentum to heal if it doesn't want to die to the next time it tries.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

So alright Cringerboi42 let me debunk your points right here, right now.
"Water absorbers take care of Dracovish!" Not at all. Well if locked into fishious rend yes, but Dracovish has more than that! It has other moves, like outrage and psychic fangs!
"Ferrothorn completely walls it!"
Well I was chatting in the OU room today and this guy was nice enough to give us this calculation.
View attachment 247091
And remember, this is with MAXIMUM DEFENSE AND HP EVS + A DEFENSE BOOSTED NATURE. As he said, that's clearly not walling.
"But Dragons! And other resists!"
Well, fishious rend is just so powerful, that even they can't take more than 1.


Now, I do not have the requirements, but if I did, I'd vote for a solid, bold ban. It overcentralizes the meta, forces you to run water absorbers and stuff, and once your water absorber goes down, which ain't too hard to get to happen with prediction or teammates, you can go on ahead and say gg. The battle is basically OVER if they have Dracovish and the water absorber dies.

These aren't bad points per se, but its been well known that in practice, fish rarely sweeps, or even breaks open an exploitable hole in the enemy defenses. The reasons behind this is complex, but the fact that the fish is both A- in viability, and is hardly topping the usage statistics should be telling that the problem with fish is not that is overpowered in the battle.

This is how I differentiate the confused posts to those made by informed authors: those who read the context around the suspect understand that the issue with fish derives from teambuilding restrictions and argue for why this is or isn't true. If you didn't read the context, you probably are posting calcs and are actively avoiding the real problem good players have with the fish.

This isn't G-Darm or Kyurem-B, the fish will not be banned because it is overpowered. This is more like the dugtrio suspect, where the basis for banning the pokemon derives not from complete dominance in game, but its effect outside of it: its supposed overbearing in the teambuilder.

Edit: to quote the OP:
"Overall, Dracovish imposes a huge restriction on teambuilding. Not only are there minimal Water resists, but many Water resists that do exist cannot consistently switch into Dracovish. Dracovish arguably warps the metagame in an unhealthy manner by limiting both flexibility and creativity in teambuilding. Due to how difficult it is to consistently handle, the aforementioned examples are some of the only effective methods of counterplay available. Due to all of these factors combined, the OU council has deemed Dracovish worthy of a suspect test. "

 

[CreamyGlasses]

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Celebi: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I made a celebi set that outspeeds band vish for this comment. Between rocks, rend, and lefties, celebi takes over half from switching into rend, and immediately gives up momentum to heal if it doesn't want to die to the next time it tries.

You may concede momentum the first time fish switches in, but now you have scouted the fish set and you know its band, meaning now you can position your offensive mons accordingly and make it difficult for fish to switch in. Band fish is pressured really hard by almost the entire offensive metagame, and scarf fish wouldn't come close to cracking celebi.

 

[McCoolDude]

You may concede momentum the first time fish switches in, but now you have scouted the fish set and you know its band, meaning now you can position your offensive mons accordingly and make it difficult for fish to switch in. Band fish is pressured really hard by almost the entire offensive metagame, and scarf fish wouldn't come close to cracking celebi.

I'm firmly of the opinion that band Vish is the better option. The point of my posts isn't that it's a broken Mon (unless they YOLO outrage, toad deals with it fairly well, usually), but that the sheer damage output of the band set necessitates a water immunity or several physically bulky water resists to not just lose a mon every time Vish comes in versus something slower. This means that every team has to consider that raw output of one specific mon and tailor their team around it. That's pretty blatantly overcentralizing.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

I'm firmly of the opinion that band Vish is the better option. The point of my posts isn't that it's a broken Mon (unless they YOLO outrage, toad deals with it fairly well, usually), but that the sheer damage output of the band set necessitates a water immunity or several physically bulky water resists to not just lose a mon every time Vish comes in versus something slower. This means that every team has to consider that raw output of one specific mon and tailor their team around it. That's pretty blatantly overcentralizing.

So was grenenja in the previous generation, and it traded having a few more checks for being able to help in any scenario by setting up spikes. I'm not convinced the fish is overcentralizing until someone gives me a good answer on why its somehow different than greninja.

Don't tell me something obvious, like "bUt gRenInja IsN'T a WaLlBrEAkEr." Both mons threaten to 6-0 entire play styles singlehandedly with the right checks removed (Fish 6-0s balance and stall, Greninja 6-0s every form of offence), and yet greninja isn't overcentralizing (both basically require every team to have a sturdy water resist)? I get gen 7 is DEFINITELY not gen 8 but like... I really see no difference.

 

[McCoolDude]

So was grenenja in the previous generation, and it traded having a few more checks for being able to help in any scenario by setting up spikes. I'm not convinced the fish is overcentralizing until someone gives me a good answer on why its somehow different than greninja.

Don't tell me something obvious, like "bUt gRenInja IsN'T a WaLlBrEAkEr." Both mons threaten to 6-0 entire play styles singlehandedly with the right checks removed (Fish 6-0s balance and stall, Greninja 6-0s every form of offence), and yet greninja isn't overcentralizing (both basically require every team to have a sturdy water resist)? I get gen 7 is DEFINITELY not gen 8 but like... I really see no difference.

I mean. Wasn't Greninja banned in ORAS for that specific reason? I didn't really keep up with Gen7OU, so I can't comment there.

 

[Empress Mobile]

The comparisons I've seen to recent past gens don't really hold up. In Gen 5, Keldeo's Specs-boosted Hydro Pump in the rain was the gold standard for Water-type offense, but it could be easily dealt with by bulky resists like Latias, Slowking, and Latios. These were all mons that could push offense on the opponent's team, maintaining decent momentum while easily stomaching a resisted hit. Banded rain Fishious Rend can ONLY be dealt with by immunities, bulky resists like Toxapex and Ferrothorn stand no chance. And keep in mind that the immunities that exists within the realm of real OU play are limited to Seismitoad, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Mantine, and Quagsire (the latter of which normally would run Unaware anyway). If these mons are spec'd to deal with Vish defensively, they pretty much all become passive blobs and momentum saps, while still generally being defensively unimpressive for their incapacity to deal with the tier's numerous other breakers.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

The comparisons I've seen to recent past gens don't really hold up. In Gen 5, Keldeo's Specs-boosted Hydro Pump in the rain was the gold standard for Water-type offense, but it could be easily dealt with by bulky resists like Latias, Slowking, and Latios. These were all mons that could push offense on the opponent's team, maintaining decent momentum while easily stomaching a resisted hit. Banded rain Fishious Rend can ONLY be dealt with by immunities, bulky resists like Toxapex and Ferrothorn stand no chance. And keep in mind that the immunities that exists within the realm of real OU play are limited to Seismitoad, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Mantine, and Quagsire (the latter of which normally would run Unaware anyway). If these mons are spec'd to deal with Vish defensively, they pretty much all become passive blobs and momentum saps, while still generally being defensively unimpressive for their incapacity to deal with the tier's numerous other breakers.

Gen 5 keldeo necessitated very specific counters. Jelli, latios, latias, and amoongus are the only tournament worthy ones i can think of. Yet somehow its not restrictive when teambuilding? I will never understand the logic here

 

[Tapeworm]

I'm going to be completely honest... I don't see a reason to ban the fish.

It is meta game warping, requiring at least one sturdy answer on every balance oriented team, but to say this is restrictive is a misleading statement. A water resist had been nigh required for good teams for at least four generations running, and defensive resits aren't difficult to come by. The only relevant change is that now, instead of running SpD EVs for greninja, they run Regular Def for the fish. Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and the Toad are all top tier answers, and while perhaps only surviving by the skin of their teeth at times, with + the spikes/tspikes/rocks (in addition to other support moves) they throw up on the switch, as well as wish support from Clefable help these checks not just stay healthy to check fish, but make meaningful offensive progress.

Therin lies the second problem with the Fish: it is either too weak to truly break through the common ferrothorn/toxapex, or too slow to threaten any part of the offensive metagame. Both sets are boned pretty hard by toad, and the admittedly gimmicky gastrodon and vaperon.

I think everyone's calc-spammed enough to explain why those are not 'top tier answers', but actually quite limited. Bearing in mind that often times a single one of these may not be enough to stop Fish on its own simply because of how easily Fish pairs with other things said mons would also be useful against. The mere presence of Fish forces the preservation of those mons because if you don't then you're going to lose, and simply having to keep that mon in the back to minimise damage for that purpose leaves teams having to play very cautiously. It's a mon that's presence can quite easily make opponents play how you want them to play in the right hands simply by the threat of it being there unless your team is effectively built to counter it completely which supports the argument of teambuilding constraints.

The flip side is the offensive metagame. It straight up can't outspeed metagame titans dragapult and zeraora, both which threaten heavy damage or OHKO, the prior chip not difficult to get with hazards or weather. In fact, even jolly scarf hits only 409, losing to any speed boosted offensive pokemon and every other viable scarfer. HO teams can easily set up a screen against the Jolly variant, and feasibly get at least one setup off on the meantime, and they outspeed and therefore half the damage from band fishous.

Correct, it is forced out by common revenge killers. These cannot be safely brought in however, you will have to sac first to achieve this match-up every time.

Overall, I would say dracovish is incredibly scary, but nowhere near banworthy. And while I won't pretend like this isn't fearmongering, a metagame without the fish loses one of the only ways truly scare clefable balance, which is 90% of the meta (not really, but it can feel this way at times).

This is a ridiculous statement. It really is not like this meta is short of things that can kill Clef or limit its utility, we do not need to keep Fish around for that. The potential issue with Clef is more complex than that and it's not an issue that's relevant here anyway. Clef is not relevant to the conversation at all.

People like to consider the fish a deity to which nothing can stop, but they forget to account for the fact that it will either be too weak or too slow to do serious damage to any tournament worthy team without some serious softening by its teammates first. This is not unlike volcarona. Do not ban.

This softening is also very possible by forcing out its checks with common pairings like Rotom-H or Zeraora and overwhelming them or by taking heavy damage from those in order to preserve your Fish answer. Unless you're building an effective counter-team which should not be mandatory and is a sign of centralisation.

These aren't bad points per se, but its been well known that in practice, fish rarely sweeps, or even breaks open an exploitable hole in the enemy defenses. The reasons behind this is complex, but the fact that the fish is both A- in viability, and is hardly topping the usage statistics should be telling that the problem with fish is not that is overpowered in the battle.

Rankings are irrelevant, Duggy was also not an S-Ranker, nor were all previous bans S-Rankers. A rank does not determine if something is broken or noncompetitive, this is not an argument.

This is how I differentiate the confused posts to those made by informed authors: those who read the context around the suspect understand that the issue with fish derives from teambuilding restrictions and argue for why this is or isn't true. If you didn't read the context, you probably are posting calcs and are actively avoiding the real problem good players have with the fish.

Pot meet kettle.

This isn't G-Darm or Kyurem-B, the fish will not be banned because it is overpowered. This is more like the dugtrio suspect, where the basis for banning the pokemon derives not from complete dominance in game, but its effect outside of it: its supposed overbearing in the teambuilder.

Which is not the point you have been making often, I think only your second post has been focused on that point while the rest of your posts all just detail the effectiveness of its checks (which I don't need to get much into since that's already being splashed about here).

 

[CreamyGlasses]

I think everyone's calc-spammed enough to explain why those are not 'top tier answers', but actually quite limited. Bearing in mind that often times a single one of these may not be enough to stop Fish on its own simply because of how easily Fish pairs with other things said mons would also be useful against. The mere presence of Fish forces the preservation of those mons because if you don't then you're going to lose, and simply having to keep that mon in the back to minimise damage for that purpose leaves teams having to play very cautiously. It's a mon that's presence can quite easily make opponents play how you want them to play in the right hands simply by the threat of it being there unless your team is effectively built to counter it completely which supports the argument of teambuilding constraints.


Correct, it is forced out by common revenge killers. These cannot be safely brought in however, you will have to sac first to achieve this match-up every time.


This is a ridiculous statement. It really is not like this meta is short of things that can kill Clef or limit its utility, we do not need to keep Fish around for that. The potential issue with Clef is more complex than that and it's not an issue that's relevant here anyway. Clef is not relevant to the conversation at all.


This softening is also very possible by forcing out its checks with common pairings like Rotom-H or Zeraora and overwhelming them or by taking heavy damage from those in order to preserve your Fish answer. Unless you're building an effective counter-team which should not be mandatory and is a sign of centralisation.


Rankings are irrelevant, Duggy was also not an S-Ranker, nor were all previous bans S-Rankers. A rank does not determine if something is broken or noncompetitive, this is not an argument.


Pot meet kettle.


Which is not the point you have been making often, I think only your second post has been focused on that point while the rest of your posts all just detail the effectiveness of its checks (which I don't need to get much into since that's already being splashed about here).

A. I never said ranks matter, but the people who do the VR aren't stupid so there is a reason its low...
and
B. If the fish is so broken why is it not on every OU team... or at least every tournament team...

I shouldn't have to explain why fish isn't broken when in practice it struggles incredibly hard. unlike duggy fish is NOT on an upwards trend (like duggy was on before its ban), and is not looking to get better. If all fish needed was a few teammates it would be the best breaker in the tier, but alas, its not. I wonder why? Perhaps its not as good as its cracked up to be, despite the calcs? The fish is a nuke, and while its a damn good one, nukes in pokemon are always inconsistent and better in theory than practice.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Gen 5 keldeo necessitated very specific counters. Jelli, latios, latias, and amoongus are the only tournament worthy ones i can think of. Yet somehow its not restrictive when teambuilding? I will never understand the logic here

Well to start, two of the mons you listed could actually threaten Keldeo with a OHKO in return, along with Slowking another viable option. None of Vish's counters can do the same. The offensive checks that can threaten Vish with a OHKO are easily overwhelmed by Fishious Rend even though most of them resist the move. Not to mention, Amoonguss and Jellicent could offer a lot more defensively to a team in Gen 5 than Vish's counters can in Gen 8. On top of that, if Keldeo was running the wrong HP type it'd be easily walled by either King and Jelli or the Lati twins, whereas Vish always has a coverage option to overwhelm its counters.

 

[dirby]

Out of obligation to the suspect process I suppose I’ll give my thoughts about Dracovish, granted there really isn’t much to discuss. Practically everyone believes its broken, so much so that this is less of a suspect test and more like a execution of a prisoner on death row.

Dracovish is a pretty simple mon to play against. You could write a step-by-step guide on how to deal with it because the scenario plays out exactly the same way. They switch into their Vish, you switch into check and then you pray that they’re scarf because otherwise if your name isn’t Seismitoad, Fishious Rend is taking away half your health.

The move is busted, it's like buying a lottery ticket and having a guaranteed chance to hit the jackpot. It makes the rest of Dracovish’s moveset irrelevant because Fishious Rend ignores the type chart and nets kills anyway due to its power

Pick your poison in terms of Dracovish’s set, because you’re walking out with at least 2 kills every game with the right team support regardless. Banded’s middling speed tier can be supplemented by Webs support and Scarf’s loss of power can be regained by Rain support. You could run Protective Pads, but that requires prediction with Whirlpool, and when I use Dracovish I prefer to turn my brain off at all times.

Seismitoad is the only reliable check to Dracovish in my opinion. Toxapex is forced to use Baneful Bunker to prevent getting 2hko’d after rocks, meaning you get a free switch out while Ferrothorn gets 2hko'd after rocks if it has Rocky Helmet. The problem is that Seismitoad is mediocre. It has no reliable recovery, meaning it hates knock off and any form of status. It set rocks, but it can’t keep them up against Corviknight. Yeah, it switches into Rotom-H, but that carries Toxic which puts Seis on a timer, and on top of that its taking nearly half from +2 Overheat. Outside of checking Dracovish, it doesn’t really have a viable niche in the meta over a rocker like Kommo-o, who can actually keep rocks up vs Corviknight. Essentially we’re left with a Pokemon whose only reason its in OU is because of Dracovish. (I’m not going to mention the fact that Seis gets 2hko’d by Outrage, because its not actually a 2hko, you’re just doing half of Seis’ health before being forced out by Clefable, meaning that you have to predict correctly twice in order to get the kill, and forcing any sort of prediction for the Dracovish user is already a huge accomplishment.)


Its only notable weakness shared by both its sets is the fact that it can’t switch in directly on Clefable, and as Clefable is on the majority of teams, that’s an issue that Dracovish has to deal with on a regular basis, but it doesn’t even matter because Clef gets outsped and ohko’d anyway, and Dracovish has plenty of switch-in opportunities with its 90/100/80 bulk on other common defensive pokemon such as Hippowdon, Mandibuzz and Corviknight(although it has to be wary of u-turn on the latter 2).

That about sums it up. No calcs or replays, apologies for that, but it's my first post so cut me some slack. Everyone knows what Dracovish does anyway, so I don’t think I’m leaving out vital information by any means. Dracovish is far and away the most broken pokemon in the metagame and that’s why I’ll be voting ban.

 

[Earthflax]

Here are my reasons Dracovish should be banned repeated but this time with more detail.


My first reason behind a Dracovish ban: It is far too centralizing, You’ve all heard this before but a Dracovish is a staple on a team, both to counter other Dracovish and to… well, do what Dracovish does (read: piss everyone off and kill everything). Even in a meta where there are highly-used sets like Conk, Clefable, and Cinderace there is either clear variance in the sets (Conk sometimes runs AV, Clefable can use both Leftovers/Wish or obliterate with Life Orb, Cinderace can run Choice, but AV works well for it from my experience) or it’s not used on every team. For example, out of 10 OU battles I recorded, I saw 7 Clefables, 6 Conks, and 3 Cinderaces, but 9 Dracovish. In this sense you have 5 or less ACTUAL team slots and a Dracovish slot.


My second reason behind a Dracovish ban: Its counters are also centralizing. While we can all agree Dracovish is far more centralizing than its counters, its counters are also needed on any team trying to succeed in OU. And these counters are few and far between: Seismitoad, Quagsire (which wouldn’t have Water Absorb normally), Gastrodon, and sometimes Appletun, Cloyster, Toxicroak, Maractus and Mantine. (Also, notice how out of these 8 counters, 6 of them have a water immunity, and one of them has a water ¼x resistance and super-effective STAB against the thing. It shows how busted Fishious Rend is combined with Dracovish’s stellar typing both offensively and defensively.) Anyway, the first 3 counters and especially Seismitoad and Gastrodon are seen so, SO commonly. Remember my 10 OU battles I assessed? 7 of the teams there had one of the 8 Pokemon I highlighted.


What this entire Dracovish/Dracovish-Counter stuff I’ve been talking about, I can sum this up by saying this has basically become the Can’t Catch Dracovish! Metagame. It’s far, far too centralizing in OU.


Also, before I counter some other people’s statements, Dracovish is gonna get banned to Ubers once HA comes out anyway, so it’s not really if we ban it, it’s when.


Now, some people have been showing some damage calcs and saying that Dracovish has its counters. And the thing is: Everything, fucking everything, has a counter. There is not a single legal Pokemon you can point at that has no counters. Ubers have counters too. The way something gets to Ubers is that it has too few counters or that it can take out anything that isn’t a counter. Both of which apply to Dracovish.


Some people are saying that there are a few things it can’t switch on. Um, okay, what doesn’t have a few things it can’t switch on? Going back to my previous argument, nothing doesn’t have a counter or safe switch-in. This is Pokemon, everything has a weakness and a counter. Dracovish is weak to Fairy, therefore it can’t switch into Clefable. Nobody in their right mind would bring out Dracovish against a Dracovish counter or an unsafe switch-in. What I’ve seen a lot of people do is get rid of the counters and unsafe switch-ins, and then destroy the rest of their team with Dracovish.


Unsafe switch-ins are easily taken care of if you know what Pokemon aren’t safe for Dracovish to switch in. You have 5 non-Dracovish slots on your team, which is more than enough to dispose of all the possible counters and unsafe switch-ins, and then kill everything.


In conclusion, Dracovish is SO broken, and it’s gonna get banned anyway once it gets Sand Rush, but I don’t see a reason why we shouldn’t ban it right now. It’s got all the qualities of an Uber: fucking broken signature move, amazing abilities, and no counters that can’t be disposed of with your other team slots. Thank you for listening to me, and I feel fucking stupid typing this out on Google Docs for a fake children’s game.

 

[Padstar34]

Honestly, Dracovish should be banned for 2 reasons. The first is that this is the most brainless mon to ever join the OU tier. It clicks only 1 move, and then gets countered by the same few mons, seismitoad, gastrodon, vaporeon, jellicent, among others. Its also checked by a handful of scarfers, such as Hydreigon, Kyurem( who can live and unbanded hit anyway if it is specs), Gardevoir and Togekiss. Scarf is also checked by bulky resistant mons such as Kommo-o Cloyster, Primarina, Hydreigon without scarf and Kyurem, as i mentioned before. Dragapult also naturally outspeeds and Ko's it. Its no secret that Dracovish is overcentralising. Practically every team needs to carry some sort of water absorb mon, otherwise they get 6-0'd by dracovish alone, however when you have any of these mons, dracovish becomes something of a dead weight. I think for the sheer uncompetitveness, and because of how centralising it is, Dracovish should be banned from Gen 8 OU.

 

[War Incarnate]

Honestly, Dracovish should be banned for 2 reasons. The first is that this is the most brainless mon to ever join the OU tier. It clicks only 1 move, and then gets countered by the same few mons, seismitoad, gastrodon, vaporeon, jellicent, among others. Its also checked by a handful of scarfers, such as Hydreigon, Kyurem( who can live and unbanded hit anyway if it is specs), Gardevoir and Togekiss. Scarf is also checked by bulky resistant mons such as Kommo-o Cloyster, Primarina, Hydreigon without scarf and Kyurem, as i mentioned before. Dragapult also naturally outspeeds and Ko's it. Its no secret that Dracovish is overcentralising. Practically every team needs to carry some sort of water absorb mon, otherwise they get 6-0'd by dracovish alone, however when you have any of these mons, dracovish becomes something of a dead weight. I think for the sheer uncompetitveness, and because of how centralising it is, Dracovish should be banned from Gen 8 OU.

While I do agree that Dracovish is unhealthy for OU, I don't agree with the entirety of your reasoning. Vaporeon and Jellicent are pretty much useless in OU, this is why I listed Seismitoad as the only "true" counter and even then that's kinda questionable because of the sheer amount of mons that take care of it (looking at you Kyurem). Kyurem hardly runs Choice Scarf, it'd much rather run Choice Specs, Gardevoir is terrible, and so is Togekiss. Dragapult will outspeed and OHKO it, but the thing is it can't switch in on Dracovish, and on top of this, the Choice Specs set is lowering in usage, which means you see Dragapult with less Draco Meteor as it would much rather run a SubHex set... which works really poorly against Dracovish.

 

[Ur local kangaroo]

B. If the fish is so broken why is it not on every OU team... or at least every tournament team...

That has to be some of the worst logic of all time, Mega Kangaskhan In 2015 VGC was Severely Broken, but in Worlds, Only 6/8 people in the top 8 actually Brought it with, you're saying that not all players using a certain Pokemon is not ban-worthy is bad, or better yet, Darmanitan-Galar was banned to Ubers, but most people didn't Know about it until it got banned, why? because it was too Overpowered. Off-topic but i'm thinking that If Dracovish gets banned, Its gonna create a new tier: OUBL

 

[whitnerd]

Unpopular opinion, but I think we should not ban Dracovish. Dracovish is scary, but it has counters: there's Baneful Bunker Toxapex and Seismitoad. Plus, its mediocre speed tier does nothing for it besides allowing it to be outsped by many of the tier's threats and allows it to be revenged quite easily.

However, the main reason why I think Dracovish should not be banned is because of its ability to stall break and break balance teams. It is the ONLY unboosted mon in OU that can OHKO Clefable bar steel types. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to play in a meta where Teleport Clefable is even more prominent without the likes of Dracovish to check it.

After this ladder session for reqs, I can conclude that Dracovish may be scary, but it isn't broken. There are many ways to cripple and beat it down through residual chip damage(sand, burn, poison, protect), as well as mons that are naturally faster than its mediocre speed stat. In this replay, my Toxapex had its black sludge knocked off, there were rocks on the field, and it was switching into a banded Fisheous Rend at 80%. Because of the other teammates, Dracovish was still effectively checked and beaten down.

more dracovish replays from my ladder session

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1117736666
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1117709697
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1117644501
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1117491437

 

[Gold Geno]

I love ol' Dracovish, but it needs to go. It's a rather unique case of a suspect-worthy Pokemon in just how one-dimensional it is. Usually, suspects are suspect-worthy in part due to versatility. Suspects are often capable of running at least a few distinct sets effectively, and also often can tweak their sets to stop would-be checks and counters with little opportunity cost. That versatility greatly limits one's options when teambuilding, and is a sign that the suspect in question is problematic.

Dracovish is different in that it's practically only ever had two sets; Band and Scarf. When it's using them, it practically only ever uses one move: Fishious Rend. It's one of the most predictable Pokemon in the OU tier, and yet here it stands upon us as one of the least versatile things to get suspect tested. It uses two items that lock it into clicking one move that it practically always clicks. Even a new player who hasn't worked out reading Team Preview to suss out whether it's Banded or Scarfed will always know that it's gonna Choice-lock itself into Fishious Rend the second it gets a chance.

Even despite this predictability, Dracovish is still a problem. Simply put? It's too damn powerful.

If Dracovish gets on the field in an advantageous position, it's practically guaranteed to KO something. Even bulky resists crumple to Dracovish unless they sacrifice their own versatility and go full HP/Def. The only surefire way to stop Dracovish is with a Water immunity. There aren't many of those to begin with as it's tied to abilities, and most of the Pokemon that *can* be immune to Fishious Rend would rather use other abilities (Araquanid and Quagsire come to mind) or have no place in OU beyond having that immunity. Seismitoad has emerged as the best answer to Dracovish because it's able to at least do enough besides absorbing Fishious Rend to warrant sticking around, but that means there's exactly one surefire answer to Dracovish in the tier. Everything else is shaky at best, and all of them end up giving up some momentum to the Dracovish user because of how defensive they need to be.

Fishious Rend is ridiculous for how stupid strong it is, but also because the power-doubling effect still procs if the opponent switches out. All Dracovish needs to do is get in safely on something it can threaten with a boosted Rend, and it's practically guaranteed to KO or at least severely dent even Pokemon that should be able to wall it. With Dracovish's solid defensive stats and good defensive typing, it has little trouble accomplishing this even before considering the possibility of things like slow VoltTurns or Teleport to get it in even more safely. If it's Scarfed? If you don't have something that can take a Rend handy, you're losing a Pokemon to get Dragapult or Zeraora in. If it's Banded? You better have a Water Absorber else you're practically guaranteed to lose something.

That's not even getting into other ways you can further tip the scales horrifically in Dracovish's favour. Rain is the big one, making up for Scarf's lower power and turning Band into something simply unholy. Speed control can also greatly expand the scope of what Dracovish can barrel through. I personally have had some success using Sticky Web. It isn't the most viable thing, I realize, but robbing Dragapult/Zeraora of their ability to outspeed Scarf Vish/Widening the range of things Band Vish can unga bunga rend through is a sight to behold. Paralysis is another good way to accomplish something similar. Then you've got stuff like Dual Screens and Wish that make it even safer to get in. Though it isn't versatile in its function, Dracovish is certainly capable of taking huge advantage of several tools its team might be packing.

Considering Dracovish's adverse impact on teambuilding (forcing opponents to pack one of the three or four Pokemon that stand a chance against it) and ability to so quickly spiral out of control even if you do come prepared, I think the only way forward is to BAN Dracovish.

 

[Padstar34]

While I do agree that Dracovish is unhealthy for OU, I don't agree with the entirety of your reasoning. Vaporeon and Jellicent are pretty much useless in OU, this is why I listed Seismitoad as the only "true" counter and even then that's kinda questionable because of the sheer amount of mons that take care of it (looking at you Kyurem). Kyurem hardly runs Choice Scarf, it'd much rather run Choice Specs, Gardevoir is terrible, and so is Togekiss. Dragapult will outspeed and OHKO it, but the thing is it can't switch in on Dracovish, and on top of this, the Choice Specs set is lowering in usage, which means you see Dragapult with less Draco Meteor as it would much rather run a SubHex set... which works really poorly against Dracovish.

I know that dragapult can't switch into it, thats why i said i said that dragapult was a check, not a counter, and yeah, the comment about the water absorbers are true, which is a point fo how overcentralizing dracovish has become, making water absorb a genuinely brilliant ability in this meta. It is true that Kyurem doesn't really run scarf, but I have seen it around. Also yeah, Garde and Kiss kinda suck.

 

[Earthflax]

Unpopular opinion, but I think we should not ban Dracovish. Dracovish is scary, but it has counters: there's Baneful Bunker Toxapex and Seismitoad. Plus, its mediocre speed tier does nothing for it besides allowing it to be outsped by many of the tier's threats and allows it to be revenged quite easily.

However, the main reason why I think Dracovish should not be banned is because of its ability to stall break and break balance teams. It is the ONLY unboosted mon in OU that can OHKO Clefable bar steel types. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to play in a meta where Teleport Clefable is even more prominent without the likes of Dracovish to check it.

After this ladder session for reqs, I can conclude that Dracovish may be scary, but it isn't broken. There are many ways to cripple and beat it down through residual chip damage(sand, burn, poison, protect), as well as mons that are naturally faster than its mediocre speed stat. In this replay, my Toxapex had its black sludge knocked off, there were rocks on the field, and it was switching into a banded Fisheous Rend at 80%. Because of the other teammates, Dracovish was still effectively checked and beaten down.

more dracovish replays from my ladder session

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1117736666
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1117709697
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1117644501
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1117491437

We've established that counters exist but these counters often exist specifically for Dracovish. You established it is scary; Melmetal was scary, but it had counters, why did we ban it then? You listed 2 Pokemon that are going to be on a counter-Draco team, but thet's 1-3 team slots taken up depending on whether you run Draco itself or not. Residual chip damage is sure as hell not gonna work. The thing O/2HKOs everything. Not to mention everything has counters and chip damage works for basically everything. I didn't watch you battle unfortunately, I'll get to it.

You are missing the bigger picture here gentlemen. Existance is pain and we should always keep that in mind when moving ahead in life. Every time you see a Dracovish on the ladder, you are reminded of this pain, which makes it a nice subtle refference. This pokemon is a lovely little touch by Gamefreak this generation. So yes, it should exist on the ladder.

... get out

 

[Finchinator]

We have had to delete 18 posts and infract multiple users within less than a day; I am glad that a lot of people are willing to share their stances on Dracovish and I am not asking anyone to hold their thoughts, but I want to remind everyone to follow the rules outlined here and in the OP.

In addition, it is worth noting that a lot of people in this thread, specifically in the aforementioned deleted posts, tend to misused the terms "check" "counter" etc. -- formal definitions of all of these terms can be found here. For example, Celebi is not a check to Dracovish as it can be 2HKOd by both CB Fisheous Rend and Crunch from either set, even if running the PDef set. However, Seismitoad and Toxapex are good checks (and counters to the CS variant) as they can withstand multiple hits and cripple it beyond the point where it can be used productively in the later portions of the game (or outright kill it). Let's remember this moving forward, thanks!
---

However, the main reason why I think Dracovish should not be banned is because of its ability to stall break and break balance teams. It is the ONLY unboosted mon in OU that can OHKO Clefable bar steel types. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to play in a meta where Teleport Clefable is even more prominent without the likes of Dracovish to check it.

This is really bad logic that we should avoid when posting in suspect discussions. We do not tier in order to preserve a "broken checks broken" metagame; if you believe something will be problematic in the aftermath of a potential Dracovish ban, then you should post about it getting suspected or discussed after the potential ban. With DLC coming around and there being plenty of resources for future tiering action, an argument for preservation centered around keeping it to check things currently in the metagame is entirely invalid.

 

[Earthflax]

-- formal definitions of all of these terms can be found here.

Sorry to ask, but I don't see a definition here. Is it there or is that the wrong link?

 

[Finchinator]

Sorry to ask, but I don't see a definition here. Is it there or is that the wrong link?

Below this, they give definitions of broken / uncompetitive / unhealthy and they discuss counters and checks in context within them. If people wish for me to make formal definitions without context, then here:

A counter can always switch in and defeat a Pokemon regularly. A check can sometimes do this as well, but sometimes it is more 1v1 oriented and the longevity of being able to do so is limited. It is a timeless debate to discuss if a check can switch-in and beat a Pokemon or just 1v1 it, but I personally believe that it is somewhere in between and includes revenge killing (i.e: an offensive check to Dracovish is Dragapult, but obviously it's not a full-on check as it is getting obliterated by boosted attacks).

The following Pokemon check CB Dracovish and counter CS Dracovish: Seismitoad, Toxapex, & Ferrothorn.