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The real problem could very well be Zacian-C. I don't think People who feel Zacian-C is the overwhelming element are strictly wrong. Arguments for Zacian-C are obviously valid. Zacian-C is more one dimensional and more of a stand-alone pokemon to me, it's selfish and doesn't really support the team much. Calyrex-S has a myriad of options it can run, It could theoretically break every Pokemon like Zacian-C or offer support for the team with aromatherapy / leech seed etc or shut down Spdef Yveltal with Trick etc etc, which imo are more beneficial to the team than what Zacian can do.
Maybe it's more logical to test Zacian-C because it is more obvious as to how much impact a Zacian-C does due to Swords Dance Breaker / Sweeper, and what overwhelming effect it has on teambuilding. To me, Spdef Yveltal is similar to Quagsire but to a lesser extent, both are just as easily exploited, by various means and don't offer much to the team outside of their role of checking their aforementioned pokemon, just being an attack sponge until they get broken. The combination of Caly-Zacian is obviously a difficult solution in the teambuilder and leaves a lot of glaring holes to other Pokemon such as Zygarde-C (which got brought up in this thread) and Kyogre. Both Pokemon being an overwhelming force leads to uninteresting turns and player strategies and offering linear gameplay, while also from a spectator pov making games boring.
Speed is really important in the current state of the meta. One of the main ways to stop Zacian-C from absolutely decimating a offense team is bringing something faster such as unironically Calyrex to revenge kill it, this is probably more of a point towards Zacian-C for the one to be suspected, Cause if Calyrex-S didn't exist, there wouldn't be much offensive counterplay left to deal with Zacian-C with the exception of Ditto/Trapping (deja vu) and with the DLC2 expansion these options really get less viable. My go-to offensive core of Calyrex-S + Zacian-C + Throat Chop Pheromosa, which I have had the most success just bringing a slap together offensive team, really speaks for itself imo. I feel the best way to deal with Zacian-Calyrex is genuinely just be faster which limits you to scarfers, excadrill, rain, and phero.
As much as I love smashing the opposing team with extremely overwhelmingly powerful and fast legendary pokemon. Does it make an ideal metagame? not really (13 year old me would have disagreed though.
p.s. T-wave Groudon is more practical than NDM when considering overall teambuilding.
Hello, all! Today I'd like to talk about a Pokémon who i find very underrated in this metagame.
Now, it's no surprise that the main things to checkbox in this metagame are none other than Zacian-C, Calyrex-S, and Kyogre. This as a result has spawned a core that has been incredibly common is this metagame in order to check these three titans. NDM, Yveltal, and Eternatus are often mandatory on teams because of the aforementioned three. However, this core tends to have blind spots in the teambuilder, notably to DD Zekrom, and grounds such as Double Dance Groudon, and Coil Zygarde. However, there's one particular pokemon that can hold off these deadly sweepers?
This sloppy sack of spaghetti completely dumpsters both Double Dance Groudon and Zygarde-C with little issue. Utilizing Growth, it can 1v1 rest variants of Zygarde at +3, cleanly 2HKOing it at that range, enough to force it out. Against Zekrom, Dragon Claw is only has a small chance to 2HKO at +2, and it never does if you get a Leech Seed off, allowing you to harass it with Earthquake. VS Groudon, you come in, eat the +2 stone edge, and swiftly blow it away with Grass Knot, which gets the kill if the Groudon is LO.
It also happens to be a great buffer against other physical beasts, such as Marshadow, and non-SD Zacian-C, which is to say, a LOT of them, considering most utilize assurance + 3 attacks.
(click sprites for pokepaste)
This is the team that I used Tangrowth on, featuring the standard supporting backbone of NDM/Yveltal/Eternatus along with a Ho-oH if things got dicey with Xerneas, due to my NDM being Earthquake + Twave to keep Zacian from getting out of hand. Speaking of Zacian, the final slot goes to the primary offensive pressure for this team, with Assurance to dumpster non Boots Dusk Mane Necrozma.
I made my rant about Calyrex-Shadow, but it's not without addressing the greater issue of Zacian-Crowned. I didn't ladder to top 50 w/ Zacian (I only used Calyrex-Shadow), but I probably should have in retrospect, and I've played enough with it now to confidently say the following:
1.) Too strong/fast, no move restrictions despite power of Choice Band, and no true checks depending on the set of NDM (Assurance for Helmet, SD for Boots, and Crunch Defense drops can still take out either). People change up their set on Zacian-Crowned to be better prepared to the one "check" that's assuredly on every balance build--too high a reward for playing to maximize utility against your best and likely only (unless you run a Lugia/Ho-Oh which requires full health).
Zacian-Crowned's base speed centralizes everything from the nature people run on all the base 90s Scarfers like Kyogre to players now starting to test Pheramosa on ladder because of its ability to outpace the two broken's of the tier (the latter of which is not a substantive point but one that speaks volumes to how much we need to reliably take on Zacian-Crowned). The fact we even had Scarf Dugtrio and a plethora of Ditto in DLC 1 I think was ridiculous enough, but in that meta there was also less "broken" to deal with, so you could more easily tack on a Quagsire/Scarf Dugtrio or Ditto/Defensive Rotom-Wash to make it feel like Zacian-Crowned had defensive checks. This is different.
Zacian-Crowned's attack stat is unmatched given its sole ability to attack with unmatched coverage on all 4 of its moves. Coupled with Swords Dance or just enough types to shred your only answers, this mon forces a linear hand, one that the user of Zacian-Crowned can usually far too easily get away with. It's too easy to predict and click SD/Assurance/etc. on the switch with this mon, because all your other mons get OHKO'd if you guess wrong and try to overpredict by staying in. It's not healthy for any metagame, this one certainly so.
2.) Overcentralizing synergy with Calyrex-Shadow, qualified if you keep reading: I only voted that Zacian-Crowned needs a ban because I think the more broken one being gone allows the tier to prepare for what's left so many more times better.
Let's play a game with an obvious answer, let's list the most reliable switch-ins to Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow: Zacian-Crowned - Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Quagsire Calyrex-Shadow - Yveltal, Blissey that prays it's not Psyshock'ing next move
Lastly, mons that can take at least one hit from both most of the time or have counterplay against them in some form:
Eternatus, Ho-Oh, Lugia, (Scarf) Kyogre, opposing Zacian-Crowned/Calyrex-Shadow, Ditto (I wonder if there's a correlation between viability rankings and placement here or above!)
Zacian-Crowned/Calyrex-Shadow beat each other's counters. The tier at this point is a game of building around what beats Zacian-Crowned/Calyrex-Shadow and what beats the counters to Zacian-Crowned/Calyrex-Shadow. Zygarde/Groudon are mainly to smash balances that realistically need to have the tried-be-true Eternatus/NDM/Yveltal defensive backbone. There is no other dynamic than balance of this archetype... other than...
3.) What I believe to be the most reliable playstyle right now because of right now: offense. This isn't an issue by itself, but I think it's entirely because of Zacian-Crowned and to some degree Calyrex-Shadow forcing a very speed-forced meta if you want a reliable shot of knocking either out.
Here's the controversial point, but I'm sold to the point that balance is a matchup bait right now. Again, not the most objective point, but ladder is a matchup meme right now. Balance is currently the fun game of whether Groudon hits his Stone Edge's and similar mons with sets that are just there to play off of the linearity of builds, because all balance teams give so much to protect against Groudon/Zygarde (Lugia, Lunala, etc.) that already is necessary in beating Zacian-Crowned/Calyrex-Shadow and also just, you know, having some sort of building diversity in the tier. To quote Manaphy, "Don 6-0s."
People scoff with the idea of Webs/Hyper Offense being a reliable playstyle for most matchups (with obvious exceptions in other gens of Ubers), but it's honestly so good right now in Sword/Shield. Lowering the speed of Zacian-Crowned/Calyrex-Shadow may just be the best bet against them unless you want to run Scarf on a bunch of slow mons (which you then lose to the niche Trick Room!), because the defensive measures to handle them currently being used are really close to just losing to them anyway. I'd bet money that someone's going to get smashed in Ubers Championship III using Balance against HO meant to kill Balance primarily, and they'll both see how good it is.
I currently hate laddering in this tier, and I hate building even more. I get that this always can come from someone salty with not winning enough, but I just don't think the better player wins at the frequency of comparable tiers--whether that be other recent gens of Ubers or other gen 8 tiers. If you build to have an even MU with the whole tier, you'll be sidestepped by something niche that too easily works around what you have. I put that in my survey, and I'm putting that here now.
Zacian-Crowned is unlike any pokemon we've seen before. With its ability Interprid sword and Its skyrocketing attack/speed makes it very difficult for this mon to be checks. Physically Defensive Necrozma-Dusk Mane and Dittos astronomical usage can largely be attributed towards Zacian-C Existence and not because of any other metagame threat (Calyrex-S gooo brrr). Zacian-C also has a MASSIVE movepool which can hit the majority of mons in the Ubers tier, most of Zacians " checks " can easily be overpowered with its respective moves such as Assurance 2hkoing any non HDB variant of Dusk mane and Wild charge 2hkoing Ho-oh (an ohko at +2). The Usage of Zacian has caused a consistently constrained teambuilding to the same degree as a multi-threat Pokemon.
Because of these reasons, I would be in favor of a suspect test. Zacian-C's presence absolutely restricts the tools this tier has to offer. No doubt in my mind a tier without this mon would lead to more creativity and spontaneous teambuilding in significant numbers and would lead to a more exciting tier because in short words, Zacian is Ridiculous.
After the experienced player results came out for the community survey and with me being recently added to the tiering council, I figured that now would be a great time to throw out some more thoughts on not the meta exactly, but moreso on the problem mon at least in my opinion.
It's arguable that there are multiple problems currently running around, but at least out of the main ones (Zacian-C and Calyrex-S) I think that Zacian-C is 100% the biggest threat currently and is teetering on the edge of broken extremely hard, and to me it's already passed that but that's debatable, so I'll give my reasoning on this side here.
As time went on, I think Zacian-C has only gotten better even in just this meta, not comparing past ones. I'll be going through all my opinions on it and how I ranked it previously, then comparing to my vr reasoning which should be released soon.
Zacian-C took a bit hit with DLC 2, with Calyrex being the newer insanely fast and strong attacker. It's still insanely strong though and can break a lot of Pokemon by itself. Assurance can cach Necrozma, Play Rough can catch Zygarde, Wild Charge for Ho-oh, etc. Its coverage is solid and it can break big holes in teams, it's just a little worse than its previous #1 status imo.
This was in a dynamax meta so somewhat understandable, Zacian was lacking compared to where it is now when dynamax was around, but still a solid top tier threat. I considered Calyrex-S a whole league better than it, but that changed without dynamax which skewed the rankings quite a bit around who could abuse the broken mechanic the best.
November 19 - NP Thread First Post
Zacian-C:
Whenever people would previously bring up the idea of a Zacian-C suspect I would always respond that it's not broken and while good, wasn't deserving of a test or in dlc 1 even the most pressing matter with a few dynamax mons around. Now however, I think it's something to keep an eye on. Quagsire has fallen off the face of the earth as a check to Zacian-C for the most part due to it's passiveness allowing the new threats to get in for free or for it to just get knocked and take hazards damage not letting it reliably beat Zacian-C. It also doesn't exactly make progress against it since quag is forced to recover on basically every attack, so it needs helmet to force damage leaving it prone to hazards. Zacian-C also has an absurd stat spread for some reason which lets it take a majority of the hits it wants to especially with defensive investment while maintaining an insane attack stat and a base speed that outruns half the meta uninvested.
Necrozma-DM is the clear thing that can make this argument disputable, but Zacian-C has just started running assurance more so it can't ever switch in. If you want to get your own rocks up with Necrozma against a standard opposing team it's likely with a rocks trade against another Necrozma to do it safely, so if you're running boots it's either don't get rocks and keep the item or rocks / knock trade but lose the item and die to assurance. Games like this just force repeated trades of mons whenever a Zacian touches the field, and it's awful to have to play because your best method of beating it just loses on switch in. Dusk mane is also seeing insane usage especially in kickoff where it's right behind Yveltal meanwhile Quagsire had a 0% winrate, so it just shows people are trying everything to beat Zacian, it's just unreliable for the most part.
I can't say if this is worse for the meta than Calyrex-S right now because that's also a very tough subject, but I at least think it's worth further discussion down the line like some people thought about it initially.
Looking at this one it was still somewhat fresh off the dynamax ban, and Zacian had already become a lot better in my opinion. The reasoning of a potential test in my mind seemed like it could be there now more than ever, because it was able to break through way more things without random dynamax users to stop it. Quagsire had proven to be fairly lacking to say the least, and it started running assurance a lot more alongside the SD sets to pressure Necrozma-DM. Was already looking rough on the meta at the time, but I still saw Calyrex-S as potentially more threatening.
Zacian-C feels like it's only getting better somehow, just kind of beating the meta. Assurance has shown to be absolutely ridiculous, close to single-handedly winning games because it just invalidates the best mon which is able to check it unless it forgoes Rocky Helmet which comes with the ability to force passive progress on switch in for Heavy-Duty-Boots, which are knocked off half the time anyway. In one of my CPL games, it was basically pick a mon then threaten out Zacian: The Game! It basically came down to who got who first with the Assurance, and I got him first so I won late game after killing the rocker letting my own dusk mane switch in more freely, only after sacking a Blissey which was my switch in to a Zacian. My own Zacian proceeded to get 5 kills after clicking one move on a switch in. It's not like the opposing team couldn't deal with it either, there was a dusk mane, a Choice Specs Calyrex as a revenge killer, and their own Zacian for the assumed speed tie, but it abused the fact that the hard check shocker: has to switch in. SD sets with Crunch also just bop dusk manes that aren't running twave since it does close to the same thing but can fish for hax more reliably, and all twave does it let more than -2 mons revenge kill it due to their speed. I think it might be very close between this and Calyrex which is better, but offensively they're both clearly in a league of their own, forcing their best checks to probably follow right behind them in viability with maybe a Zygarde thrown in between.
At this point it became fairly clear that Zacian had slowly pulled away from the rest of the tier. It went from very solid attacker behind a few mons to the best mon to run that could break even prepared teams within like a month. It kept on advancing and the meta hasn't really been able to keep up, and it pretty much can't. I think the argument of Calyrex over it was still there, but to me Zacian had just slowly been becoming better at a rate much faster than anything else.
VR thoughts
It has ways to break through its best checks in the meta mostly being just Necrozma-DM which is easily broken by assurance or forced to use HDB which removes all passive progress it can make against Zacian attacking. Quagsire is the best true wall but that is extremely passive and forced into recovering after basically every hit, and with its boots knocked off it can't reliably come in either. Incredibly hard to switch into without 100% correct predictions, best mon in the tier currently imo.
I think at this point Zacian has become too much, and should be the first thing to go assuming a suspect is to follow this discussion at some point in time. We've had Zacian-C around since the start of the gen yet the same checks are being used still because they're the only ones, and the best ones. The problem with this is that Zacian has been able to switch up what it runs while those checks haven't, and as more mons are added very few pressure Zacian more than they pressure the checks to Zacian which just makes it better over time. It's hard to look at something that we've dealt with for so long and all of a sudden want it gone instead of the new toy that joined the tier and is close to as strong because we know what Zacian's like, but currently I think what it's like is too strong. Running through its sets, you can see just how much versatility it has and how much pressure it can exert onto the meta.
4 Attacks Offensive
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Assurance
- Close Combat
- Play Rough
- Wild Charge
This is my favourite set to run, and the one I think is the most consistent as well as the most effective one in almost every mu. You could opt for the more fancy bulky spreads that creep things like Adamant Marshadow or Modest Eternatus but I usually just stick to the max with Adamant because 130 is still a speed tier you sometimes want to run past and you don't even need a beneficial nature for it. Assurance into CC always KO's Necrozma -DM from full if any form of hazard are up, so it realistically can just click one button and beat its best check.
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 160-189 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The issue with not going Necrozma first and pivoting into something like Ho-oh which might seem like a good idea is what if it's not AAA and just clicks SD? Then Ho-oh dies and Zacian comes out claiming at least one free kill because the set wasn't what you tried to predict around instead of sending out the check immediately. At this point the options of beating this are super limited, and the main one that comes to mind since the others for the most part are unviable is Quagsire. How hard quagsire has fallen is surprising, but just shows how unhealthy Zacian is. This mon is hanging onto viability by the tiniest thread, and that being it is never 2HKO'd by Zacian (barring solar blade) but like:
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 159-187 (40.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The best check is taking 47 max and can only survive hazards if it runs Heavy-Duty-Boots, meaning it has 0 actual way to pressure Zacian. If it doesn't heal every single time its hit then Zacian can just win given that this is the main way of beating it, so no progress is made aside from forcing Zacian out after being a punching bag, and if that's a win then I don't think the mon it's trying to beat is healthy. If you try and run rocky helmet then Eternatus Tspikes immediately prevents quag from coming in, and although a small chance even after 1 round of resisted Stealth Rock prough can 2hko, and spikes is even worse for it. 4 attacks can invalidate a ton and force very fast progress when put in even a mediocre position, because it can just force things out and with 1 decent sometimes risk free prediction it can just win games.
The old standard from DLC 1, just sometimes now I've seen more of those slashed moves than before since Zacian can sometimes afford switching things up even on a linear SD set. Linear isn't a bad thing here however, because it can just win. Dusk mane is taking 60+ and relying on hits that don't OHKO Zacian to beat it and sometimes you can just Crunch drop fish on the switch if that's ran and it's close to over. Quagsire does a little bit better if it's just cc and running jolly, but again it's quagsire so it doesn't matter all too much.
These are just the all out offensive threats, Zacian has an insane stat spread which allows it to run bulky fairly reliably with spreads such as:
EVs: 252 Atk / 144 SpD / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
This spread has something extremely convenient about it, being that it's the benchmark needed to live one specs Calyrex-S Astral Barrage from full while ALSO outspeeding non boosting nature base 130's like modest max speed Eternatus which could be relevant. Also creeps a bit slower things like Adamant Marshadow and rare base 110's at max speed which should realistically never matter but is a thing. The spread also has a chance to live a scarf Kyogre water spout but a very poor chance, but that can also be ev'd for because of how naturally strong, fast, and bulky Zacian is.
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 144 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 274-324 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 312-367 (84.3 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zacian can also choose to run misc. sets like rest talk, rest 3 attacks with a cleric which literally just beats Dusk mane in a long game no tricks or special move gimmicks, edited ev spreads to the sets above such as enough speed to hit 351 with max attack then the rest in HP which also lives Calyrex-S Astral Barrage, can make sun somewhat usable with fire fang + solar blade coverage beating even quag, etc. etc. I think you could just go down the list of things an offensive mon wants and Zacian can do it, which I don't think leads to a healthy metagame where it's incredibly focused around not losing to this.
Moving past just Zacian however, why this over Calyrex? I think that while very good and that it would probably take over as #1 if Zacian were to go, Calyrex-S is not as unhealthy as Zacian and is much more manageable. It heavily relies on trick to break through its checks in a long game, and just scouting for that with something other than Yveltal can usually allow it to not break teams. Sub seed can be an issue and the thought of having to run snarl isn't good, but Yveltal can also put a stop to it somewhat with taunt sets which imo are amazing sets that don't feel the huge limitation of running sp.def, and some attack investment U-turn into a revenge killer like Marshadow or Ditto. It doesn't have the immediate raw breaking power of Zacian but has the snowball effect of its ability, I just think it's harder to get rolling with Calyrex in an unstoppable position compared to Zacian breaking teams whenever it feels with its varied sets. Calyrex has a few sets of its own though in addition to specs and sub seed mainly being np orb / sash or scarf, both of which have their benefits but they face similar problems where scarf is a revenge killer that relies on trick if it wants to break which gives up the speed control, and np can't kill Yveltal but still has its strengths in power.
If Zacian is tested and banned as result it may be even easier to beat Calyrex, because a lot of common ways it abuses teams can be fixed. Phys.Def Necrozma-DM or Quagsire won't be forced on teams as sitting ducks against it, and Tyranitar will be much more free to not have to run twave to prevent Zacian from coming in, and can possibly rise as a mon because it can check more with free moves and a lack of that Zacian restriction.
TL;DR: Read the post but suspect Zacian and Calyrex might be more manageable than currently by quite a bit imo (also goth is stupid)
Personally, i think Zacian-C is by far and away the most unhealthy presence we've had in Ubers history, for the complete removal of any way to be creative in team building, which is half the fun of playing Pokemon, and teambuilding creativity is half of what pushes a metagame forward in terms of advancement. In my eyes there's nothing worse for a tier than when you are literally FORCED to bring 1 or 2 certain mons in particular to handle another Pokemon, especially when this spans more than one time. The fact that you HAVE to bring Necrozma Yveltal is probably the single worst thing going on with this tier, because it completely chokeholds all ability to advance the meta because when you are so limited in options, it's nearly impossible to progress as a tier when half your team is decided for you before you even do anything with it, spreads and everything. Necrozma HAS to run impish max max or very close to it, Yveltal has to run specially defensive orientated but atleast it can have slight semblance of variety to it, and Eternatus, while it can run offensive, your gimping coverage on a Pokemon like Kyogre which isn't an easy hole to patch either way, so your better off putting sp def boots on it almost every time. I kid you not every time i think about trying to build a team i literally copy paste my existing Etern NDM Yveltal sets and paste it to the new team because i literally have no other choice, realize i can't cover everything and just stop building and go play like blaze black or something because it frustrates me less. This tier is so volatile in every way that nearly every team you could possibly make is a matchup fish, with 0 semblance of consistency on any single team, to where it's so frustrating to even ladder that I don't even think i've had less fun playing/building any other meta of any other tier in the entire time i've played Smogon.
I'd go as far as saying that Zacian could be argued to honestly skip a suspect test altogether. While i understand we aren't in beta, but it's simply so apparent it's broken that i cannot see a single valid argument that could be made that keeping Zacian in the tier atall would benefit the tier's health in any manor. I know it won't happen but i would absolutely make an argument in support of a Quickban on Zacian, and honestly gatekeeping it from every generation of ubers it's availlable in from now on unless a dusk mane to xerneas case happens, which i sincerely doubt will even be possible because knowing game freak they'd give Zacian completely unneeded buffs which remove any semblance of flaws it had like they did with Magearna. Even without buffs i've said it before but i'll say it again, we'd need a Steel poison with unaware/Levitate and the bulk of Buzzwole, reliable recovery, a way to kill Zacian in return, and even then this will become the new dusk mane so it'll become required on teams too, so in general, ban Zacian and don't even bring it back down next gen unless major things change.
To me Zacian and Calyrex are about the same level of disgustingly broken. I personally find Calyrex more of an issue due to the customisability of the item slot making it more annoying in the teambuilder, but its splitting hairs for me and I truthfully dont believe that one going is going to make the other one easier to handle. In a non-zacian meta, Dark Types do get better but most of them are either a worse version of Yveltal or already have a niche (TTar), so I dont believe that there will be significantly more counterplay to Calyrex caused by Zacian going, and the same vice versa in that, well, Quagsire and stuff isnt made bad by Calyrex as much as it is the rest of the meta as well.
Picture this. You are the average DLC2 Ubers shmuck goin about your business in the ladder. Dynamax had been banned a while ago, of course. You’re using the usual NDM/Etern/Yveltal backbone that just about every team needs to function with because of the 2 brokens and Kyogre. Your opponent is of course, using Zacian, the premier offensive threat. You confidently switch in your Rocky Helmet Necrozma Dusk Mane, sure that whatever Zacian can throw out, you’ll shrug off with ease and either get a TWave off or heal the attack. You are unaware of how you had just taken stealth rock damage upon switching in.
“The opposing Zacian used Assurance!”
It’s super effective!”
(“Necrozma lost 60% of its health!”)
You stare, dumbfounded at the damage output, at what you had thought a check now no more than a free victim for an Assurance + Close Combat combo. You hadn’t heard of Assurance and had just thought it to be just some level up move that you wouldn’t need. Zacian then proceeds to rip a hole each and every time it comes in, resulting in your defeat.
Seeing how we got more Zacian-C arguments more recently and TonyFlygon asked for players who reached the experienced criteria on the survey to give their opinion here, I would like to give some reasons to why I voted for Calyrex, but first, I wanted to clarify something about the differences between the percentage based on the public:
As we can clearly see, the playerbase who met the criteria for experienced was much smaller. This might make the percentages look a bit inflated, as the sample size for one of them was more prone to flexible results. I estimated around ~325 voters overall and ~37 experienced players (of course, not exact numbers as I do not have access to them, but just estimating by looking at the graphs) - that means that the difference between Calyrex's 58.1% to Zacian's 30.2% on the first sample was around 91 votes - meanwhile, the raw difference between Zacian's 50% on the second sample against Calyrex's 33.3% is more around...just 6 players. I just wanted to show that, despite giving some evidence for a pattern, the small sample size might make that difference look a bit inflated.
Going for Calyrex itself now: I think both Pokémon are similar in the sense of how restricting they are on the teambuilding right now, but I also think it's not hard to see how more extreme Calyrex is. Regardless of where you look, usage stats clearly show Yveltal far ahead anything in usage, including a sizeable difference to the number Necrozma-DM (which also is obvious why it is so high) on the 1760 stats, even despite the fact that Calyrex has a lower usage than Zacian itself. This ties to the fact that, despite people claiming that Zacian has an easier timer breaking its checks than Calyrex (which I agree in the case of Necrozma-DM), the number of things you can actually use against Calyrex also is smaller. Every other viable Pokémon that I see people mention that are viable and supposedly check it are simply 2HKOed by it and sometimes don't even have reliable recovery, like Tyranitar.
I discussed this more with Fc04 on the Ubers room a few days ago, but I also don't think baiting Trick is as simple as it looks like. You could try to go for your Blissey to take that while covering Astral Barrage, but oops, it went for Psyshock and your Blissey just took 70%, esentially removing it from any role that you would want like a Kyogre or Xerneas switch-in. I don't see how this is any better than Assurance Zacian to break Necrozma - in fact, I think it's worse as not only it requires less setup due to not needing any hazards, a ton of Pokémon on the tier are still threatened by Psyshock regardless if they stay against Calyrex, while if you click Assurance against the opponent's Yveltal with Zacian, you're eating more than 50% from Foul Play at least, while going for Psyshock against Sp. Def Yveltal isn't really that bad - it has a free turn, but Sp. Def Yveltal doesn't progress the game much by itself, the most threatening move it has is Knock Off, which not always is avaliable. If you fail to bait the Trick, then Yveltal is almost deadweight, as hazards will simply damage it too much and it'll be forced to Roost everytime.
This is also only talking about Choice Specs, which is the main set people talk about; of course, Calyrex is free to run an item, so it gets considerably more versatility. Not only you're basically locked into the Sp. Def Yveltal on every team already, you also need Snarl to not be run over by SubSeed. Every other set will simply be PP stalled and let Calyrex set up to +6 on the turns Yveltal needs to Roost instead of break Calyrex's Substitute, and As One means that you can barely try to pivot around without also risking making it more powerful. Choice Scarf nullifies every form of revenge kill unless you can take a hit from, as Scarf Calyrex is only outsped by +2 Zacian and Eternatus. This means that not only it can revenge kill a ton of boosted threats like Zygarde and Zekrom (even if they get +2 if you run Timid), but it also reverse sweeps, with it only being stopped by priority at that point, aka Marshadow and Giratina-O due to its immunity to Espeed. Your Scarf Pokémon? Not a revenge killer anymore, unless you try the Speed tie with Ditto or Calyrex.
Finally, Astral Barrage is simply too spammable: there's almost no risk clicking it, especially if you can Knock Off Yveltal's Heavy-Duty Boots, as even at 80% you're getting 2HKOed by Specs Barrage after rocks. With Zacian, none of its moves are as spammable: they all have multiple switch-ins when left alone, which also means you have more space for pivoting around. Zacian also can be worn down over time at least: if Necrozma's not HDB, it'll take 1/3 from two hits from Rocky Helmet alone, and that's counting you got the Assurance off right on your first try. If Ho-Oh comes in, not only does it need to already be weakened, but that's 30% more from recoil alone. Also, despite Zacian's incredible Speed, the fact that Scarf is not an option for it and that it's slower than Calyrex itself also means that's considerably easier to revenge kill it with a faster Pokémon compared to Calyrex than a mere 2 points might look like. The weakness to Ditto also must not be understated, as improofing your Calyrex is considerably easier than your Zacian when it gives a free +2 to Ditto.
Even if both are a problem, Calyrex's is just way more centralized imo. In theory, I honestly don't think one ban will help manage the other that much, but freeing the mandatory Yveltal slot (and letting it use sets that can actually bring more progress to the game) or the phys def Necrozma-DM could do something. I'm also not a fan of theorymonning, even if I think it's fun, when it comes to matters like suspects, so I do think we should look at the meta after the suspect of either of them, but I also want to reinforce the data that we got from the survey and for the council to consider the whole community, as imo a difference of 6 votes shouldn't be looked the same way as one of more than 90 even with the criterias adopted.
I think a very important comparison to make is to compare Kyogre to current Zacian-C. Kyogre was #1 in usage for ubers during the ADV days through DPP all the way to BW. If you didn’t prepare for Groudon properly you got dismantled by its sun boosted teammates. If you didn’t prepare for Kyogre you got dismantled by Kyogre itself. Choice specs has very few switch-ins, kinda like the situation we’re in right now. While we’re running Quagsire for Zacian-C. We ran stuff like Ludicolo just for a safe specs Kyogre counter.
And this is before I even talk about how disgusting GeoXern prior to the introduction of Duskmane and Mag in USUM.
We have had really powerful sweepers that can reach the same level of speed and offensive stats before. Yet, the Ubers tier survive time and time again.
The ability to hold an item warped M-Ray into something too strong for Ubers, with 0 real counters. Mega Ray has no switch-ins. Hypnosis mgar abuses the OHKO clause. Zacian just isn’t there, yet.
However things has changed since then, Ubers is evolving into a tier and not is just a banlist anymore. So it’s a question of whether would we want what’s best for a healthy meta game, or do we want to preserve Ubers as a tier with as little rules as possible but with a semi-playable yet centralising meta.
If the answer is the former, a Calyrex-S and Zacian-C suspect test is much needed. However if not, the Ubers tier will probably survive albeit with a not fun and centralising meta game.
My opinion, for a more healthy competitive playing field, is to ban either one to give more breathing room for teams to deal with the other.
The biggest problem imo is that it's almost impossible to determine and theorymon who's more broken. Yes, we have compelling arguments that address potential problems and counterpoints for both Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider. However, there can not be a concrete answer unless we were to adopt a "Kokoloko" system, then ban each of them separately, and test how the meta fares without one of them. But we CAN (and already have) proven that Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider are both overcentralize Ubers. That's all I can honestly say without claiming I am an expert.
Question for the Ubers playerbase: would you play a tournament where both Zacian-C and Calyrex-Shadow were banned? I think that would be a great way to get an idea of what the metagame would be like without them, and as much as I'd like to see a temporary ladder with them banned, I know it would be a lot of work and God knows this year has been rough on everyone. Therefore, I think a tournament with them banned would be the next best thing.
Zacian is a monster, she have the power to overcome to every single uber mon on the tier. He can ever come over the only viable check that she haves: Necrozma Dusk Mane. One roll, wrong item or random crit decides the game even on the first stages of the battle. People using Quagsire and ditto on the tier reveals how is the power of this mon. Bulky zac is spectacular on every team, you cant deal with she, bulky zac survives any attempt to revenge killed. Plus aggresive sets just make Calyrex and some scarf ussers like Kyogre avaliable to try to revenge kill. Since day one Zac was on of the top tier Ubers in the generation, after a year and the relase from Dlc 1 and 2 is just a fact that Zacian is the best offensive mon to use in the current meta. If you dont use Zac is cause you want to abuse from Groudon, all the core builds are weak to both main stabs of this dangerous mon. Battles are short and who gets better luck is gonna win the most part of the time. Zacian is worst than calyrex cause at least Calyrex is more manageable and you just need one mon to deal with she. Zac pressence on the tier is just unhealty, you cant use different teams and you cant play without 2 or 3 mons to stop Zac. The meta is just boring and to predictable, you cant be creative on teambuilding and in the battles you can win or lose just cause an unfavor roll. Quick ban zac or at least suspect would a good step to take to make this meta more enjoyable.
Zacian is a monster, she have the power to overcome to every single uber mon on the tier. He can ever come over the only viable check that she haves: Necrozma Dusk Mane. One roll, wrong item or random crit decides the game even on the first stages of the battle. People using Quagsire and ditto on the tier reveals how is the power of this mon. Bulky zac is spectacular on every team, you cant deal with she, bulky zac survives any attempt to revenge killed. Plus aggresive sets just make Calyrex and some scarf ussers like Kyogre avaliable to try to revenge kill. Since day one Zac was on of the top tier Ubers in the generation, after a year and the relase from Dlc 1 and 2 is just a fact that Zacian is the best offensive mon to use in the current meta. If you dont use Zac is cause you want to abuse from Groudon, all the core builds are weak to both main stabs of this dangerous mon. Battles are short and who gets better luck is gonna win the most part of the time. Zacian is worst than calyrex cause at least Calyrex is more manageable and you just need one mon to deal with she. Zac pressence on the tier is just unhealty, you cant use different teams and you cant play without 2 or 3 mons to stop Zac. The meta is just boring and to predictable, you cant be creative on teambuilding and in the battles you can win or lose just cause an unfavor roll. Quick ban zac or at least suspect would a good step to take to make this meta more enjoyable.
Bold: I can only think of two mons that can stop Shadow Calyrex - and one of those (Blissey) is extremely passive to the point of being setup bait unless it runs Shadow Ball (a telltale indicator that something is seriously wrong, to be sure). She's also praying to Mila that it doesn't have Trick, as well as hoping it either didn't Nasty Plot on the switch or didn't KO another mon earlier, in which case she's in trouble. Oh, and she invites Zacian in for free. A lot of this applies to Chansey as well, except she has to worry about hazards. The other (Yveltal) needs be specially defensive, and also to run frigging Snarl, of all moves (something that I frankly find rather telling), lest it be defeated by SubSeed. Or it needs to not get hit by The Almighty Knock Off and lose its boots, else Stealth Rock is a concern. I don't know why you're underselling Calyrex, as Calyrex is just as big a reason why this meta is a mess as Zacian is. Maybe even more so.
Not sure if this is the place to discuss this or if this has been discussed before, but I would like to advocate for a separate ladder for pre-DLC2, and with it, the release of Dynamaxing. I know fun isn't a valid reason for this, but I must say, pre-Crown Tundra was in my opinion much more fun than what it is now. My main reason for this though, is that the meta prior to DLC2 was more balanced with a larger pool of viable mons to use. Rain, sun and sand teams were all quite viable, not to mention standard offensive and balanced teams. Zacian, while powerful, was in no way overpowered, and had plenty of viable and reliable checks and counters. I think if enough people support this idea then it could be possible. If this could even be considered as potentially an OM that would be fine with me as well, but ideally it would be a permanently playable ladder alongside the current Ubers one.
Not sure if this is the place to discuss this or if this has been discussed before, but I would like to advocate for a separate ladder for pre-DLC2, and with it, the release of Dynamaxing. I know fun isn't a valid reason for this, but I must say, pre-Crown Tundra was in my opinion much more fun than what it is now. My main reason for this though, is that the meta prior to DLC2 was more balanced with a larger pool of viable mons to use. Rain, sun and sand teams were all quite viable, not to mention standard offensive and balanced teams. Zacian, while powerful, was in no way overpowered, and had plenty of viable and reliable checks and counters. I think if enough people support this idea then it could be possible. If this could even be considered as potentially an OM that would be fine with me as well, but ideally it would be a permanently playable ladder alongside the current Ubers one.
How would Pre DLC2 have more viable mons? There were like 10 ubers at most. If you miss Dynamax, you are free to play Anything Goes which still has ladder.
How would Pre DLC2 have more viable mons? There were like 10 ubers at most. If you miss Dynamax, you are free to play Anything Goes which still has ladder.
First post so bear with, apologies for it being an essay
Based on the Ubers usage stats and general experience on the ladder, it is clear that Zacian-C and Calyrex-Shadow make teambuilding in this gen highly restrictive; whilst there is some counterplay to each, at the very least they make the tier somewhat dull to build in. Whilst it could be argued that neither is inherently broken in and of itself, the fact that they cover each others’ checks makes the combination an unhealthy metagame presence; the situation where Calyrex attacks on the switch into Yveltal and then switches into Zacian-C as Yveltal roosts up happens multiple times in a typical game.
Gothitelle is worth mentioning here as well; whilst it has never been broken in previous generations of Ubers, its ability to trap defensive mons and PP stall them unless they have taunt is unparalleled. Recently I have seen people complaining about it in the Ubers room on PS and it was mentioned in some council members’ viability rankings as something that was worth looking at. Gothitelle is only a prevalent issue because of Zacian - its key advantage is it can reliably trap and kill NDM, which is most teams’ dedicated Zacian check. Otherwise it traps defensive mons as it always has but gets shut down by taunt and is blown away by most other mons.
Ubers has always been a highly centralised meta with broken mons that have no true counters - choice specs Kyogre in DPP being a prime example. Just like in that case, both mons can, in isolation, be checked; NDM can check a fair proportion of Zacian sets, especially if hazards aren’t up, and Dugtrio can incentivise the Zacian user not to get a kill, which would result in Zacian being trapped and revenge killed after some chip. Snarl or Taunt Yveltal can check SubSeed Calyrex, and priority or scarfers can revenge kill it. This is the prime argument for no ban; we have seen competitive tournament games with both mons allowed where innovation and good play is rewarded, hence it can be argued that, whilst perhaps more overcentralised than previous metas, this is similar to past generations of Ubers. However, what is it that makes this meta so much worse than previous?
The key problem is the combination of many powerful offensive threats which already have limited counterplay. Calyrex-S, Zacian-C and Kyogre all require dedicated checks, otherwise they will run through your team, and even with all of these checked your team becomes vulnerable to mons such as Zygarde, Zekrom, Xerneas and Groudon. Moreover, the fact that both mons have such high speed makes offensive counterplay very difficult; nothing above C-rank in viability outspeeds Zacian bar Calyrex itself and scarfers, forcing you to check them defensively. The lack of defensive Arceus formes and Primal Groudon really gears the meta towards playing around offensive threats as best as you can until one player gives their opponent an opening.
Whilst no individual mon is broken to Mega Rayquaza level, the recent power creep of offensive mons without defensive mons keeping pace has led to, in my opinion, a dull metagame where, once one of your walls is broken down, your team is exposed. It is plausible that, when the next games are released, potentially with Megas, Primals and Arceus, these two will not be as overbearing as before and should definitely be allowed back in the tier to start with, but for now at least one of them is unhealthy. I am inclined to say that Zacian is the bigger problem; guessing its set wrong can result in losing a mon and its main check, NDM, can lose to it easily. Based on previous posts, it is clear that a fair proportion of the community sees Zacian as problematic and would support a suspect test. The only concern is a potential snowballing effect, for example Xerneas becoming a problem without Zacian to revenge kill it. However, this is purely theoretical and trying to find a meta that the community wants to play is the priority.
Closing this thread as Zacian-Crowned is now being suspected, discussion should center on that instead in the new np thread!
Thanks everyone for discussing your thoughts in the meantime
Zacian-C took a bit hit with DLC 2, with Calyrex being the newer insanely fast and strong attacker. It's still insanely strong though and can break a lot of Pokemon by itself. Assurance can cach Necrozma, Play Rough can catch Zygarde, Wild Charge for Ho-oh, etc. Its coverage is solid and it can break big holes in teams, it's just a little worse than its previous #1 status imo.
