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★ np: SS UU Stage 8.1 - This Heart's On Fire
- Thread starter Hogg
- Start date
- Status
Losing Regieleki is probably a good thing - it was not the most restrictive thing in the world, but it did require you to take it into account in teambuilder nonetheless. So, now there is one less thing that we all have to take into account when teambuilding.
Screens teams will definitely take a hit with no Regieleki, as many saw it as the best screen setter (though it was debatable). Also, based on the usage stats, Regieleki got almost double the usage of both Ninetales-A and Grimmsnarl combined:
USAGE STATS
| 8 | Regieleki | 17.626% |
| 36 | Ninetales-Alola | 6.253% |
| 40 | Grimmsnarl | 5.160% |
Obviously Regieleki had other sets besides screens, but screens was the predominant one. Screens are still viable though, and Ninetales and Grimmsnarl are still the best at it with Regieleki gone, but there is a strong divide in the community as to which one sets them better, so I want to highlight the benefits and detriments of each:
Ninetales-A, formerly known as "UUBL" Ninetales-A, is now the most used screen setter in UU. Being able to set up both screens in one turn is a benefit that no other viable UU mon has. However, it relies on Hail, and this means that your screen abusers are going to be taking some hail damage. Also, weather teams (primarily sun teams) really give Ninetales-A a hard time as they can cancel the Hail before the screens go up.
PROS:
CONS:
-
Grimmsnarl is sturdier than Ninetales-A, and is the fastest screen setter because of Prankster priority. It's not able to set up both in one turn like Ninetales though, but it has better defensive typing, doesn't rely on Hail, and has more reliable support moves like Taunt or Thunder Wave. It is quite slow though, so if you needed to do any amount of damage, Spirit Break is going last.
PROS:
CONS:
-
This may make it seem like Grimmsnarl is the better setter, but the two Cons for Grimmsnarl are big, especially the fact that it has nothing for momentum. The big boon (or boom) of Regieleki was that it could explode to give you immediate momentum to your sweepers. Neither Grimmsnarl nor Ninetales can do this, but Ninetales can at least try to sleep something with Hypnosis or Encore it so you can switch safely. There are, of course, other screener options, which are less looked at. I won't list all of them, but I will focus on two:
So I've been using Pyukumuku screens for centuries, and recently a sample team got posted for Uxie screens, which is basically the same concept. I'll go over the pros and cons as a whole for both:
PROS:
Superb bulk means there is almost nothing that will OHKO you
Access to Memento is perhaps the best Momentum grabber of any screen setter. Uxie and Pyuk are the only two mons in the entire game that have access to both screens + Memento.
Uxie has access to Magic Coat to prevent a Taunt and bounce back hazards
Pyukumuku's Unaware allows it to safely come in on other enemy sweepers that set up
CONS:
Takes two turns to set up both screens
So very slow. Oftentimes you will only be able to get one screen up so you better pick it wisely.
If you don't have Magic Coat you are total Taunt bait.
Using Magic Coat when the enemy is not using a support move is a wasted turn you usually cannot afford to waste
Nothing to prevent defogging the screens
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These two are obviously not ideal screen setters, but they can work. There are many Cons here, but the key Pro is, again, the Momentum grabber. This is so important to help your sweepers set up more easily. Ninetales and Grimm will still rule the tier for screen setters though, but make sure you analyze each of them closely when determining which one you want to use. I have a very strong opinion that both are good and neither is substantially above the other. My personal favorite is still Pyuk, but I mostly started using it competitively only because I thought it was funny.
I'd like to thank all of you for joining me today for my Screens 203 course. I wish you the best of luck this semester.
Screens teams will definitely take a hit with no Regieleki, as many saw it as the best screen setter (though it was debatable). Also, based on the usage stats, Regieleki got almost double the usage of both Ninetales-A and Grimmsnarl combined:
USAGE STATS
| 8 | Regieleki | 17.626% |
| 36 | Ninetales-Alola | 6.253% |
| 40 | Grimmsnarl | 5.160% |
Obviously Regieleki had other sets besides screens, but screens was the predominant one. Screens are still viable though, and Ninetales and Grimmsnarl are still the best at it with Regieleki gone, but there is a strong divide in the community as to which one sets them better, so I want to highlight the benefits and detriments of each:
Ninetales-A, formerly known as "UUBL" Ninetales-A, is now the most used screen setter in UU. Being able to set up both screens in one turn is a benefit that no other viable UU mon has. However, it relies on Hail, and this means that your screen abusers are going to be taking some hail damage. Also, weather teams (primarily sun teams) really give Ninetales-A a hard time as they can cancel the Hail before the screens go up.
PROS:
- Two screens in one turn
- Access to Hypnosis for sleep and Encore to clear for a safe switch
- Good speed to use all moves, support and damaging
- Freeze Dry has great coverage against a wide range of UU mons
CONS:
- Hail will cause chip damage to your sweepers
- 81 base special attack is very low, so Freeze Dry is not doing much except against things it is super effective against.
- Hypnosis is a terrible 60 ACC move
- Nothing to prevent something from Defogging the screens
- Ice/Fairy is very bad defensive typing
- Still is outsped by plenty of UU mons, including Alakazam, Azelf, Lycanroc-D, and Zeraora, all of which can either Taunt or Knock Off the Light Clay before screens are up (or just KO you in Lycanroc's case)
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Grimmsnarl is sturdier than Ninetales-A, and is the fastest screen setter because of Prankster priority. It's not able to set up both in one turn like Ninetales though, but it has better defensive typing, doesn't rely on Hail, and has more reliable support moves like Taunt or Thunder Wave. It is quite slow though, so if you needed to do any amount of damage, Spirit Break is going last.
PROS:
- Prankster Screens make it the fastest screen setter
- Access to Taunt to prevent defogging the screens
- Decent defensive typing in Dark/Fairy, and Prankster allows you to focus all EVs on survivability without needing Speed.
- Has 120 Base Attack, allowing you to do decent damage with Spirit Break uninvested
CONS:
- Requires two turns to get screens up
- Has no moves to help gain momentum or allow a safe switch in
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This may make it seem like Grimmsnarl is the better setter, but the two Cons for Grimmsnarl are big, especially the fact that it has nothing for momentum. The big boon (or boom) of Regieleki was that it could explode to give you immediate momentum to your sweepers. Neither Grimmsnarl nor Ninetales can do this, but Ninetales can at least try to sleep something with Hypnosis or Encore it so you can switch safely. There are, of course, other screener options, which are less looked at. I won't list all of them, but I will focus on two:
So I've been using Pyukumuku screens for centuries, and recently a sample team got posted for Uxie screens, which is basically the same concept. I'll go over the pros and cons as a whole for both:
PROS:
Superb bulk means there is almost nothing that will OHKO you
Access to Memento is perhaps the best Momentum grabber of any screen setter. Uxie and Pyuk are the only two mons in the entire game that have access to both screens + Memento.
Uxie has access to Magic Coat to prevent a Taunt and bounce back hazards
Pyukumuku's Unaware allows it to safely come in on other enemy sweepers that set up
CONS:
Takes two turns to set up both screens
So very slow. Oftentimes you will only be able to get one screen up so you better pick it wisely.
If you don't have Magic Coat you are total Taunt bait.
Using Magic Coat when the enemy is not using a support move is a wasted turn you usually cannot afford to waste
Nothing to prevent defogging the screens
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These two are obviously not ideal screen setters, but they can work. There are many Cons here, but the key Pro is, again, the Momentum grabber. This is so important to help your sweepers set up more easily. Ninetales and Grimm will still rule the tier for screen setters though, but make sure you analyze each of them closely when determining which one you want to use. I have a very strong opinion that both are good and neither is substantially above the other. My personal favorite is still Pyuk, but I mostly started using it competitively only because I thought it was funny.
I'd like to thank all of you for joining me today for my Screens 203 course. I wish you the best of luck this semester.
Question. Is setting up both screens the mark of a proper screener? Duh, yes, but I've been looking at Whimsicott for example. It can only set up Light Screen, but what a massive support movepool! Going by the criteria of a decent screener set by BigFatMantis, she seems to have what it takes...if you only want one screen. She has Prankster, and is quite speedy uninvested. Taunt, Stun Spore, Leech Seed, hell Switcheroo a Lagging Tail or something. Just spitballing ideas, this is all theory.
Wow. Is this the first time in like four or six months where OU hasn't horribly screwed over UU in some way? This feels so odd, especially since I was dreading that we were going to get Urshifu-Rapid-Strike or Latios. At least 2021 is off to a good start in that regard.
Still, even with Regieleki gone, it's not like Screens are just going to go away. They might even get more prominent since I agree with the people I've seen say that Regieleki going still benefits Hyper Offense the most of any playstyle. Yay....
This is also true, though I'm unsure if going a full three Status moves when one of them isn't Leech Seed is worth it even with Prankster and even if Moonblast is reasonable solo coverage due to it being somewhat overpowered. (Seriously, why is it a 90 BP attack? And why it one with a 30% chance of dropping Special Attack while still having 100% accuracy?)
I guess it's a bit of moot point now though given that Regieleki got snatched back to OU by OU's typical whims. Still, it's good to see that other people consider that Whimsicott might have actual merit in UU given it was mostly just me spitballing like a fool (who forgot to include Scolipede because I keep forgetting it's unbanned--thanks Celesteela).
Still, even with Regieleki gone, it's not like Screens are just going to go away. They might even get more prominent since I agree with the people I've seen say that Regieleki going still benefits Hyper Offense the most of any playstyle. Yay....
This is also true, though I'm unsure if going a full three Status moves when one of them isn't Leech Seed is worth it even with Prankster and even if Moonblast is reasonable solo coverage due to it being somewhat overpowered. (Seriously, why is it a 90 BP attack? And why it one with a 30% chance of dropping Special Attack while still having 100% accuracy?)
I guess it's a bit of moot point now though given that Regieleki got snatched back to OU by OU's typical whims. Still, it's good to see that other people consider that Whimsicott might have actual merit in UU given it was mostly just me spitballing like a fool (who forgot to include Scolipede because I keep forgetting it's unbanned--thanks Celesteela).
I saw TPP talking about OU shifts in their NP thread and thought it would be nice to do a post in the same way. Sorry for the blatant stealing e.e. (After writing this I've realized how much Zeraora has shaped the metagame. Maybe not all points I made are accurate and these shifts haven't happened mainly because of Zeraora, but I think some did happen because of it. Goes to show how good it is right now)
Notable Increases:
#13 (11.657%) > #2 (20.390%)
Krookodile has finally gotten the recognition it deserves! While not the number 2 mon in the tier, it does deserve a spot in the top 10 imo. It compresses so much roles that I can definetely get behind it being in such a high spot. It gives you an Electric immunity, a Ghost resistance, a Stealth Rock setter, is one of the best Choice Scarfers, and has access to Taunt. Krook has at least 4 viable sets: Intimidate Choice Scarf, Chople Berry, Suicide Lead, and Moxie Choice Scarf. Despite competing with Nidoqueen for the Ground-type slot on teams, one doesn't overeshadow the other. Extremely valuable mon.
#30 (7.816%) > #12 (14.691%)
Tangrowth has passed Amoonguss this shift. I think there are some reasons why.
Notable Decreases:
#12 (11.793%) > #27 (8.244%)
Poor Gyarados has seen better days. You are basically obligated to run Jolly if you want to get past teams with Zeraora, and due to the furry's popularity, almost every team has one. Its Flying typing also hinders it, giving a SR weaknesses. Not only thats, DD sets want to run Moxie in place of Intimidate, so Gyarados can't even take more physical attacks with more ease. And even with an Intimidate drop, some attacks will still do heaps of damage to you. At least when Gyarados gets going, it really gets going and can easily sweep teams, even if they're not weakened.
#11 (11.958%) > #24 (8.869%)
The abundance of Grass-types has really taken a toll on Rotom-W's viability. Tangrowth and Amoonguss can eat every hit from Rotom-W and recover back with Giga Drain and Regenerator. Unlike its oven counterpart, Rotom-W can only Volt Switch when faced with the fat Grass-types. Zeraora being popular also doesn't help it, since Rotom-W doesn't resist Electric, unlike the oven. Other popular Pokemon like Kommo-o and Latias don't care about Rotom-W and can Roost/Recover, set Stealth Rock, and setup in front of it.
Newcomers:
#73 (1.508%) > #42 (4.839%)
Probably rose to counter Zeraora, and does a fine job at it. Unaware stops Bulk Up sets and Heavy-Duty Boots sets can't do a thing to Quagsire since they're not running Grass Knot anymore. Seems like a pretty good option for stall teams.
#46 (3.982%) > #41 (5.134%)
Kyurem has been picking up in usage and is pretty close to rising to OU this time. I hope we get to keep it, its such a powerful wallbreaker and has basically no safe switch-ins granted you predict the switch right.
Code:
Combined usage for UU (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1 | Salamence | 20.839% |
| 2 | Krookodile | 20.390% |
| 3 | Kommo-o | 20.249% |
| 4 | Zeraora | 19.524% |
| 5 | Scizor | 18.484% |
| 6 | Celesteela | 18.018% |
| 7 | Blaziken | 17.633% |
| 8 | Regieleki | 17.626% |
| 9 | Latias | 17.603% |
| 10 | Azumarill | 17.193% |
| 11 | Nidoqueen | 14.779% |
| 12 | Tangrowth | 14.691% |
| 13 | Jirachi | 13.880% |
| 14 | Victini | 13.647% |
| 15 | Chansey | 12.659% |
| 16 | Mew | 12.129% |
| 17 | Slowking | 11.855% |
| 18 | Skarmory | 11.451% |
| 19 | Tapu Bulu | 11.339% |
| 20 | Amoonguss | 11.067% |
| 21 | Rotom-Heat | 10.282% |
| 22 | Mamoswine | 9.942% |
| 23 | Bisharp | 9.524% |
| 24 | Rotom-Wash | 8.869% |
| 25 | Hatterene | 8.633% |
| 26 | Moltres-Galar | 8.360% |
| 27 | Gyarados | 8.244% |
| 28 | Conkeldurr | 7.766% |
| 29 | Thundurus-Therian | 7.751% |
| 30 | Terrakion | 7.710% |
| 31 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 7.046% |
| 32 | Crawdaunt | 6.660% |
| 33 | Nihilego | 6.515% |
| 34 | Keldeo | 6.269% |
| 35 | Alakazam | 6.265% |
| 36 | Ninetales-Alola | 6.253% |
| 37 | Primarina | 6.127% |
| 38 | Azelf | 5.601% |
| 39 | Tentacruel | 5.373% |
| 40 | Grimmsnarl | 5.160% |
| 41 | Kyurem | 5.134% |
| 42 | Quagsire | 4.839% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +Notable Increases:
Krookodile has finally gotten the recognition it deserves! While not the number 2 mon in the tier, it does deserve a spot in the top 10 imo. It compresses so much roles that I can definetely get behind it being in such a high spot. It gives you an Electric immunity, a Ghost resistance, a Stealth Rock setter, is one of the best Choice Scarfers, and has access to Taunt. Krook has at least 4 viable sets: Intimidate Choice Scarf, Chople Berry, Suicide Lead, and Moxie Choice Scarf. Despite competing with Nidoqueen for the Ground-type slot on teams, one doesn't overeshadow the other. Extremely valuable mon.
Tangrowth has passed Amoonguss this shift. I think there are some reasons why.
- Tangrowth can run
sets more easily than Amoonguss due to its respectable offensive stats of 100/110 compared to Amoonguss's 85/85. Tangrowth also has access to a way more diverse movepool, boasting moves like Focus Blast, Knock Off, Earthquake, and Rock Slide. This allows for more room to deal with checks and counters. - Our green noodle friend also has a waaay higher Defense stat of 125, so most sets can afford to run 0 Def investiment and dump all EVs in SpDef with a Sassy/Calm nature (this is what happens with Assault Vest sets). Because of its huge Def stat, even with no invest, Tangrowth can very much act as a physically defensive wall.
- Tangrowth's 20 more points in Speed let it outspeed Gastrodon, Palossand, Quagsire, Mudsdale (hi Lily), and 0 Spe Rhyperior. This also means Tangrowth doesn't Speed tie with Slowking, Galarian Slowbro, Reuniclus and Amoonguss, unlike Amoonguss. All this with a Sassy nature! Granted, most times outspeeding these Pokémon isn't the biggest selling point since you can recover a lot of health between Giga Drain and Regenerator, but it can save you from a few KOs.
- A pure Grass-typing lets Tangrowth check Ground types like Rhyperior and Krookodile more reliably. It also isn't weak to Psychic, so it doesn't care about Future Sight or other Psychic moves that Slowking might carry.
Notable Decreases:
Poor Gyarados has seen better days. You are basically obligated to run Jolly if you want to get past teams with Zeraora, and due to the furry's popularity, almost every team has one. Its Flying typing also hinders it, giving a SR weaknesses. Not only thats, DD sets want to run Moxie in place of Intimidate, so Gyarados can't even take more physical attacks with more ease. And even with an Intimidate drop, some attacks will still do heaps of damage to you. At least when Gyarados gets going, it really gets going and can easily sweep teams, even if they're not weakened.
The abundance of Grass-types has really taken a toll on Rotom-W's viability. Tangrowth and Amoonguss can eat every hit from Rotom-W and recover back with Giga Drain and Regenerator. Unlike its oven counterpart, Rotom-W can only Volt Switch when faced with the fat Grass-types. Zeraora being popular also doesn't help it, since Rotom-W doesn't resist Electric, unlike the oven. Other popular Pokemon like Kommo-o and Latias don't care about Rotom-W and can Roost/Recover, set Stealth Rock, and setup in front of it.
Newcomers:
Probably rose to counter Zeraora, and does a fine job at it. Unaware stops Bulk Up sets and Heavy-Duty Boots sets can't do a thing to Quagsire since they're not running Grass Knot anymore. Seems like a pretty good option for stall teams.
Kyurem has been picking up in usage and is pretty close to rising to OU this time. I hope we get to keep it, its such a powerful wallbreaker and has basically no safe switch-ins granted you predict the switch right.
Zarude-Dada @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jungle Healing
- Darkest Lariat
- Power Whip
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jungle Healing
- Darkest Lariat
- Power Whip
Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 80 Def / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 80 Def / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
Zeraora @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 Def / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Volt Switch
- Plasma Fists
- Knock Off
- Blaze Kick / Close Combat / Play Rough / Filler
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 Def / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Volt Switch
- Plasma Fists
- Knock Off
- Blaze Kick / Close Combat / Play Rough / Filler
Hi guys, there's been a bit of council discussion on a certain Pokemon that most of us deem unhealthy at the moment, and I figured it'd be a good idea to gauge community opinion. That Pokemon, of course, is Latias.
Latias is another case of a Pokemon that took a while to get going. When it first dropped, it was always recognised that it was good, but it was hardly this super dominant beast - there were a few reasons for this of course, like Aegislash, Celesteela and Gengar being so common - in general it just felt a lot easier to keep it in check & it wasn't that common to begin with, as can be seen in these usage stats from mid-November and December:
It crept up pretty quickly though! Here it is in January's usage stats:
Still not quite #1 but it's rising fast. So what makes Latias restricting & unhealthy? The short answer is that there is a lack of counterplay that Latias's common, viable sets can't beat. For example, let's take a Pokemon commonly touted as Latias's most consistent counter, Jirachi.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Jirachi: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This isn't really great to begin with... now let's factor in a Calm Mind boost.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Jirachi: 252-299 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not really reliable at all. Add in the fact that Latias gets pretty free CMs against Pokemon like Nidoqueen and Slowking and you've got a Pokemon that acts as its "counter" getting destroyed more often than not. Not like Iron Head does much in return either. So what about other checks and special walls?
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 135-161 (33.9 - 40.4%) -- 43.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Celesteela is a great check but it can't really be considered consistent due to its reliance on Leech Seed which can easily be punished by common pivots like Amoonguss, Tentacruel, and AV Tangrowth.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
AV Tangrowth, to its credit, doesn't take a ton from any of Latias's attacks and Regenerator makes this effectively 0. The problem is that it doesn't do anything back other than Knock Off, which barely scrapes past 50% and it just gets Roosted on once Latias loses its item.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 200-238 (28.4 - 33.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
Chansey, to its credit, is a pretty good counter to the 3 Attacks + Roost set, which is the most common and consistent one. That said it pretty much has to click Soft-Boiled every time it comes in since this attack does 40% minimum with Stealth Rock up.
Pokemon like Slowking and Mew can kinda sorta take its attacks, not very well, and it's not like they can even really do much back unless they carry specific suboptimal moves just to have a shot at crippling it.
It's not like Latias struggles to get in either. Thanks to its amazing bulk, typing and Speed tier, it comes in pretty easily on Pokemon like defensive Kommo-o, lots of Salamence sets, Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Amoonguss (assuming something has alrdy been slept), Keldeo, Nidoqueen, Slowking, Rotom-H, Skarmory... you get the point.
The bottom line is that Latias is just far too fast, bulky and strong to remain in UU in its current state. The addition of Mystical Fire to its movepool has really put it over the edge because even stuff like Hatterene and Primarina can get 1v1d with the Special Attack drop, not to mention how easily it fries frailer Steels like Scizor and Magnezone. I'd like to see what you guys think of it, but at the moment I would vote ban if there were to be a suspect test.
Latias is another case of a Pokemon that took a while to get going. When it first dropped, it was always recognised that it was good, but it was hardly this super dominant beast - there were a few reasons for this of course, like Aegislash, Celesteela and Gengar being so common - in general it just felt a lot easier to keep it in check & it wasn't that common to begin with, as can be seen in these usage stats from mid-November and December:
Code:
| 19 | Latias | 8.472% |
| 20 | Latias | 10.002% |It crept up pretty quickly though! Here it is in January's usage stats:
Code:
| 9 | Latias | 17.603% |Still not quite #1 but it's rising fast. So what makes Latias restricting & unhealthy? The short answer is that there is a lack of counterplay that Latias's common, viable sets can't beat. For example, let's take a Pokemon commonly touted as Latias's most consistent counter, Jirachi.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Jirachi: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This isn't really great to begin with... now let's factor in a Calm Mind boost.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Jirachi: 252-299 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not really reliable at all. Add in the fact that Latias gets pretty free CMs against Pokemon like Nidoqueen and Slowking and you've got a Pokemon that acts as its "counter" getting destroyed more often than not. Not like Iron Head does much in return either. So what about other checks and special walls?
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 135-161 (33.9 - 40.4%) -- 43.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Celesteela is a great check but it can't really be considered consistent due to its reliance on Leech Seed which can easily be punished by common pivots like Amoonguss, Tentacruel, and AV Tangrowth.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
AV Tangrowth, to its credit, doesn't take a ton from any of Latias's attacks and Regenerator makes this effectively 0. The problem is that it doesn't do anything back other than Knock Off, which barely scrapes past 50% and it just gets Roosted on once Latias loses its item.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 200-238 (28.4 - 33.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
Chansey, to its credit, is a pretty good counter to the 3 Attacks + Roost set, which is the most common and consistent one. That said it pretty much has to click Soft-Boiled every time it comes in since this attack does 40% minimum with Stealth Rock up.
Pokemon like Slowking and Mew can kinda sorta take its attacks, not very well, and it's not like they can even really do much back unless they carry specific suboptimal moves just to have a shot at crippling it.
It's not like Latias struggles to get in either. Thanks to its amazing bulk, typing and Speed tier, it comes in pretty easily on Pokemon like defensive Kommo-o, lots of Salamence sets, Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Amoonguss (assuming something has alrdy been slept), Keldeo, Nidoqueen, Slowking, Rotom-H, Skarmory... you get the point.
The bottom line is that Latias is just far too fast, bulky and strong to remain in UU in its current state. The addition of Mystical Fire to its movepool has really put it over the edge because even stuff like Hatterene and Primarina can get 1v1d with the Special Attack drop, not to mention how easily it fries frailer Steels like Scizor and Magnezone. I'd like to see what you guys think of it, but at the moment I would vote ban if there were to be a suspect test.
I think Latias is, for the most part, fine. But I do think it is the best Pokemon in the tier, and a suspect test wouldn't necessarily be a terrible thing. I would personally vote not to ban it though.
It's true that Latias is difficult to deal with and has very few safe switch ins. However, Latias's downfall to me has always been its ability to be revenge KO'd by many different mons so long as you can get them in safely. Something like Slowking allows you to do this pretty easily, since Latias doesn't do much to Slowking and it can pivot out and regen health. Offensively, it has many checks. Scarf Krook, Zera Knock/Play Rough, Alakazam Shadow Ball (yes it can OHKO with Draco but then you're essentially done at 20% health and -2 SpA), even a Knock Off from Azelf does 75%+ damage, and it's faster. Latias is bulky, but it's not the bulkiest - Bisharp will still OHKO it with Sucker Punch, Mamoswine can do 80% with Ice Shard, and any HO team that has anything to boost speed will have little issues taking it down with a neutral move. And then there's things that can just revenge KO it or force it out, like Azumarill, who can Knock whatever you switch in.
So, yes, defensively it's hard to check, but it's possible to get it done. Chansey w/ Toxic, for example, shuts down most sets pretty effectively. And offensively there's many checks to it. I think the metagame is very offensive right now, so those offensive checks are pretty common and I don't see Latias being overbearing. But, as Lilburr said, it keep increasing in usage, so keeping it on the radar for a suspect may not be a bad idea in case it does get worse in the future.
In addition to this weekly chart I'm doing since a couple of weeks, I'd like to talk about some stuff I've been using. But before talking about those, I'd like to quickly summarize my thoughts on Latias since it's a pretty hot topic and since we're almost sure at this point that it's gonna be suspect tested. While I agree with most of what I've been said above by other members about the fact that Latias is really oppressive at the moment, I have to say that it's not in my opinion the worst Pokemon we have to deal with in the current state of the metagame. For instance, I found Terrakion to be way worst than Latias. Unless some council members, I do not think I would vote ban on Latias if a suspect test had to be done. I trully think Latias is more than just an overbearing threat but definitively a staple we need in this tier as it doesn't only brings offensive pressure but also defensive prowess that a lot of teams need. Being able to check with Recover/Roost things like Nidoqueen, Special Victini, Keldeo or Nihilego is really appreciated since we do not have as much defensive answers as in SM. Having offensive Pokemon which also provide solid defensive backbones to team is a must have in my opinion in SS Metagame and that's also why I think Latias is healthy for the tier.
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 156 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Protect / Toxic / Swords Dance / Megahorn / Heat Crash
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast / Stone Edge / Smack Down
Palossand @ Colbur Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Shadow Ball / Toxic
- Earth Power / Scorching Sands
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 156 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Protect / Toxic / Swords Dance / Megahorn / Heat Crash
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast / Stone Edge / Smack Down
Palossand @ Colbur Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Shadow Ball / Toxic
- Earth Power / Scorching Sands
Mew @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Soft-Boiled
- Teleport / Toxic / Brick Break
- Knock Off
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Soft-Boiled
- Teleport / Toxic / Brick Break
- Knock Off
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Whirlpool
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Whirlpool
Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof / Soundproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Clangorous Soul
- Drain Punch
- Dragon Claw / Filler
Ability: Bulletproof / Soundproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Clangorous Soul
- Drain Punch
- Dragon Claw / Filler
I don't write here often, as I usually feel that there is no reason to, however a certain section on the above post really irked me enough to the point where I'm writing this.
This paragraph feels really off to me. The mons listed aren't even ones that we're particularly starved for switchins for besides Nidoqueen, which is quite easy to offensively pressure, and Victini, which will always be obnoxious to switch into regardless of whether or not Latias is gone (it gets U-turned on anyway). Keldeo is not hard to find answers or checks for- off the top of my head I can name Amoonguss, (AV) Tangrowth, Spdef Mew (which is even mentioned in this post), Primarina, Salamence, Tentacruel, Bulu, and probably more that I'm forgetting. You can argue that SubCM Keld can muscle past some of these, but I find it incredibly matchup fishy and Slowking teams (the main archetype that SubCM Keld is supposed to prey on) will be able to naturally fit other answers either way. Nihilego isn't very common atm and with Scizor being as good as it is isn't hard to offensively pressure despite the 103 Speed. As someone who doesn't build with Lati too often I haven't found Nihilego to be hard to defensively answer at all, or even offensively pressure. It's also pretty rare so I don't get why its mentioned here at all over something else, but that's not quite the point here.
It's also not like we don't have other offensive Pokemon that don't provide defensive utility- stuff like Krookodile, Kommo-o, Salamence, Scizor, and Tapu Bulu are all examples of offensive mons that provide good utility defensively, and that's just the ones I can name off the top of my head. While its true that Latias' utility is hard to match, it's not like Latias leaving the tier will completely ruin the meta or anything (Terrakion becomes more broken but lol).
While I am currently neutral on how I feel about Latias, the points that were brought up here really rubbed me the wrong way. This response is not meant to be aggressive- if you think Latias is not broken, then by all means feel free to keep that opinion, I just didn't like the reasoning here and I think it should be avoided if possible.
This paragraph feels really off to me. The mons listed aren't even ones that we're particularly starved for switchins for besides Nidoqueen, which is quite easy to offensively pressure, and Victini, which will always be obnoxious to switch into regardless of whether or not Latias is gone (it gets U-turned on anyway). Keldeo is not hard to find answers or checks for- off the top of my head I can name Amoonguss, (AV) Tangrowth, Spdef Mew (which is even mentioned in this post), Primarina, Salamence, Tentacruel, Bulu, and probably more that I'm forgetting. You can argue that SubCM Keld can muscle past some of these, but I find it incredibly matchup fishy and Slowking teams (the main archetype that SubCM Keld is supposed to prey on) will be able to naturally fit other answers either way. Nihilego isn't very common atm and with Scizor being as good as it is isn't hard to offensively pressure despite the 103 Speed. As someone who doesn't build with Lati too often I haven't found Nihilego to be hard to defensively answer at all, or even offensively pressure. It's also pretty rare so I don't get why its mentioned here at all over something else, but that's not quite the point here.
It's also not like we don't have other offensive Pokemon that don't provide defensive utility- stuff like Krookodile, Kommo-o, Salamence, Scizor, and Tapu Bulu are all examples of offensive mons that provide good utility defensively, and that's just the ones I can name off the top of my head. While its true that Latias' utility is hard to match, it's not like Latias leaving the tier will completely ruin the meta or anything (Terrakion becomes more broken but lol).
While I am currently neutral on how I feel about Latias, the points that were brought up here really rubbed me the wrong way. This response is not meant to be aggressive- if you think Latias is not broken, then by all means feel free to keep that opinion, I just didn't like the reasoning here and I think it should be avoided if possible.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough because I feel like you missed my point which was the following : Latias can act as both an offensive and a defensive Pokemon thanks to its bulk, typing, access to ways to heal itself and large movepool. I never said that the mentionned Pokemon are hard to cover or whatever else. I just said that having offensive Pokemon which can also cover defensively other threats is always an appreciated thing in the current metagame since we don't have as much defensive staples than in SM, nothing more, nothing less. Yeah Keldeo has defensive answers like the many Grass-types we have but having a Pokemon which can switch on it and pressure in an offensive way the opponent is in my opinion way more enjoyable than an Amoonguss or a Tangrowth which are overall quite passive in comparison to the pressure that Latias can put on foes. Yeah Spore, Sleep Powder, Knock Off, Sludge Bomb etc.. are annoying but not as dangerous as a DM / Psychic etc.. I also never said that Latias was our only offensive Pokemon with defensive utility but it's still one of the best in this case. I just quoted some examples of Pokemon that Latias can pivot into. I also could have mentionned a Choice Lock Krookodile / defensive Kommo-o or Skarmory.
I don’t deny criticism, it helps us to make things better but in this case I don't understand either the point made in the post above since I really have the feeling that the part on Latias was missunderstood. Lemme know if it's more clear or not, here or in private.
PerishTrap Azumarill is back guys.. It's a pretty underrated set of Azumarill and while it's definitively not as good as CB or Belly Drum, it can be pretty nasty when it's paired with things like Zeraora. Azumarill can indeed trap with ease things like Tapu Bulu, Amoonguss or Tangrowth for its mate which is really nice. On the other hand, max SpD Azumarill is actually not bad to check Latias. It's not as good as something like Slowking which has Slack Off and Regenerator and overall a better special bulk but it's still a nice Pokemon to play with.Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Whirlpool
I'm not interested on replying on other stuff/don't have a strong opinion on some of them, but perish trap azu is something i've tried out a fair bit and did some calcs on, so i feel like i should talk a bit about it. First of all, i wouldn't say that "it's back". The reason why this set is making a slow rise is because of how a lot of team structures and archetypes are overrelying on their grass types to check multiple threats and doing other stuff at the same time too. Zeraora for example is an extremely scary mon (and i'll die to this hill), and most people tend to use scarf krooks+grass type or something like mence/scizor to check it once you get the correct scouts off. After all, perishtrap azumarill is just another way to get rid of the sitting plants to make the other threats on the team going insane. It's a way to cheat through them without overwhelming them, which is why i think the set is overall cool, but it won't do much more than that(outside of a possible steela trap maybe?). I'd say calling it a Latias check is a bit of a lie but i can see azu scaring it off the field. The reason i decided to make this follow up post is because i think the set you posted is not nearly as close as the best you can get. Since i already used it twice in tour games (1st being in uu snake but the set didn't get showcased and i was against a RU team; 2nd in ltpl, where the set gets it's showcase off) I don't have any issue with posting here the set i decided to use. I tried to think and calc a bit of different scenarios while theorycrafting it. Kebia is a way to get the trap off on amoonguss/tangrowth 100% of the time from full, because even crits/extremely bad rng shouldn't be able to fuck with it. Leftovers is only worth if you dump some into def/outspeed steela, so you can get a trap off on it too in case, but it won't be too useful for the other mons. The reason why i decided to go with chestoresto is because since you don't technically need leftovers to get traps off without an extremely bad rng, and you're not gonna do much while being slept at around 50%, being awake makes you not being a completely dead slot. You can still get a perish song off on a setupping threat which can save the day or be cool in some situations. The speed's reason is to speedcheck things that try to be faster than non-negative nature tangrowth, you don't really lose much from those 20 evs and you can get someone running racecar tangrowth off guard too.
Azumarill @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Rest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Rest
In the end, i believe this set is cool and while it's worse than CB/Bdrum it still has it's merits. The reason why i decided to make this post is because i felt like you were theorycrafting from the set you posted and i wanted to give a bit of insight and the set i've been using in my tourgames, as well as the reason behind it.
After getting washed by rob in UU champs I have no reason to withhold my genius techs and inventions anymore. Below are a list of mons I have really enjoyed using and don't see significant usage despite being sick. Like this post please 
Zarude-Dada @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- Darkest Lariat
- U-turn
- Jungle Healing
Our resident U-Turn bot is at it again! Only this time, there are top tier threats that are significantly chipped by its U-Turn in Latias, Zera (yeah even 33% on the furry nuisance is good chip), Alakazam, and Lycanroc. Getting the jump on +1 Salamence is also a really nice benefit it gets over classic scarfers like Krook. Dada gives a team a solid pivot to Scalds, Knocks, and EQs, and it can be very troublesome to switch into when paired with a strong Fire-type in the back. In particular, Zarude + Chandelure has been a tried and tested core since DLC1 and is stronger than ever with Incin being an afterthought.
Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Sleep Talk/Trick
Chandelure is an A+ threat right now because its best counter is unseen, and the only other Ghost resist that doesn't get one-tapped by Overheat is Chansey and Bulletproof Kommo-o. Chansey gets tricked and dies. Chansey loses to Calm Mind sets. Chansey is no counter. In 90% of MUs you just bring Chandy on the almost always present Grass-type, click a button, and claim a kill. Rinse and repeat 2-3 times and win. Not to mention it offensive checks Victini, Celesteela, Scizor, Jirachi so there are more than enough things to take advantage of.
Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake/Scald
- Toxic
- Knock Off
Anyone who played past gens knows how annoying Empoleon was to switch into with Scald + Toxic + Knock Off. Granted, I usually drop Scald, but man Toad comes in any MU and knocks and toxics 1-3 mons a game while getting them up. Hard walling Zera is super useful too, as our main Ground-type in Krook really doesn't switch in at all. However he is the CEO of taking infinite chip damage which really sucks for it, but it has enough bulk and staying power to do its job of annoying a team and keeping rocks up during a match. Plus even a 30% toad stops Zera from pivoting freely.
Free Aegislash
Zarude-Dada @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- Darkest Lariat
- U-turn
- Jungle Healing
Our resident U-Turn bot is at it again! Only this time, there are top tier threats that are significantly chipped by its U-Turn in Latias, Zera (yeah even 33% on the furry nuisance is good chip), Alakazam, and Lycanroc. Getting the jump on +1 Salamence is also a really nice benefit it gets over classic scarfers like Krook. Dada gives a team a solid pivot to Scalds, Knocks, and EQs, and it can be very troublesome to switch into when paired with a strong Fire-type in the back. In particular, Zarude + Chandelure has been a tried and tested core since DLC1 and is stronger than ever with Incin being an afterthought.
Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Sleep Talk/Trick
Chandelure is an A+ threat right now because its best counter is unseen, and the only other Ghost resist that doesn't get one-tapped by Overheat is Chansey and Bulletproof Kommo-o. Chansey gets tricked and dies. Chansey loses to Calm Mind sets. Chansey is no counter. In 90% of MUs you just bring Chandy on the almost always present Grass-type, click a button, and claim a kill. Rinse and repeat 2-3 times and win. Not to mention it offensive checks Victini, Celesteela, Scizor, Jirachi so there are more than enough things to take advantage of.
Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake/Scald
- Toxic
- Knock Off
Anyone who played past gens knows how annoying Empoleon was to switch into with Scald + Toxic + Knock Off. Granted, I usually drop Scald, but man Toad comes in any MU and knocks and toxics 1-3 mons a game while getting them up. Hard walling Zera is super useful too, as our main Ground-type in Krook really doesn't switch in at all. However he is the CEO of taking infinite chip damage which really sucks for it, but it has enough bulk and staying power to do its job of annoying a team and keeping rocks up during a match. Plus even a 30% toad stops Zera from pivoting freely.
Free Aegislash
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