Metagame np: Stage 1 - Building Steam With a Grain of Salt (Throh and Sneasel BANNED, read post #143)

[Magnemite]

tbh I think Dark Pulse is the best 3rd coverage move on Ninetales, it does less to Flareon but Flareon is pretty mediocre in this meta and it lets you beat Grumpig which people are using a lot recently.

Also I want to try CB Machoke, it sounds pretty cool (plus confusion inducing moves are cancerous and CB CC sounds really strong, especially if you can get a guts boost)

Edit: this has been another installment of: posts I thought were in the room staff convo for some reason and wondered why they got likes

 

[TONE]

CB Machoke does sound pretty legit with No Guard Dynamicpunch doing a lot of damage to mons that don't resist it tho I've been trying a differnt set for it:

Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def / 32 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch

Machoke is no Throh by any means (even more so that I'm using Throh's EV spread), but Machoke can hold its own given the chance with Eviolite backing up its respectable bulk. Close Combat for Machoke's main STAB, Knock Off is a great move in general hitting Ghosts like Misdreavus and Gourgeist who like to carry Will-o-Wisp for physical attackers anyway. Ice Punch for Jumpluff and provides soild additional coverage againist other Grass-, Ground- and Flying-types. Bullet Punch provides solid priority albeit weak but can pick off weakened mons like Kadabra and Haunter.

 

[Kingler]

A pretty tangential point but one that should be made nonetheless; I actually tried laddering for a while but the ladder is pretty terrible and it's not at all indicative of the actual threats in the meta; it's a lot better for testing your team/seeing what it's weak to by asking in the PU room. Also, Misdreavus has gotten much better since the banning of two threatening Knock Off spammers and checks. Swanna seems to be pretty anti-meta atm, demolishing common Water checks such as Poliwrath, Roselia, and Pelipper as well as more offensively oriented Water resists such as Simipour and Leafeon. It does fall flat against stall, though. What are your opinions on it?

 

[Raiza]

I always liked Misdreavus, and for me it's one of the most slot efficient Pokemon in the tier atm, as it provides a great mix of offensive and defensive stats to a team thanks to Eviolite and alright base Special Attack, with a bunch of utility if you run the bulky set, but with the possibility to also pull off decent damage, otherwise there are variants such as the Nasty Plot set, which can still carry Will-O-Wisp to surprise physical attackers and cripple them or Taunt to go through common walls, apart from Lickilicky. I want to also mention it has a decent coverage, as Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt are able to hit most of the tier pretty well, other than having access to moves such as Dazzling Gleam, which won't be used as much as before since Throh got banned, and Hidden Power Fighting to hit hard Steel- and Dark-types such as Probopass, Mightyena and Pawniard. Misdreavus now can also be safer as two threatening Pokemon for it, in Sneasel and Throh, got banned, as they were two of the best checks of Missy, being viable users of Knock Off and able to tank few hits, then forcing the switch and heavily damage your team, as they have an high damage output, or directly Pursuit trap Misdreavus in the case of Sneasel.
Swanna though, I only used her few times, and I have to say she's not bad, but very situational, as her bulk is mediocre and her main STAB, Hurricane, isn't always guaranteed to hit, but fortunately she also has access to Scald and Roost, which make up for some drawbacks. Having a recovery can help against Stealth Rock weakness and bad bulk, and in general makes Swanna more durable, which is needed if it needs to perform a Defog user role, even if most of the time Swanna will not be able to recover as it could be too risky. Scald provides a reliable STAB, with a lack of power if you compare it to Hurricane, but that can also brings some coverage and utility, as it has a chance to burn foes. The speed though comes really in hand most of the times, especially against offense because they don't have reliable switch ins on the Water- Flying-types coverage, and it's one of the main reasons it could be preferred over Pelipper.

 

[Anty]

Since this thread isnt very active and i have had some alcohol (WOO - lol galbia) i think i should post about the metagame.

Firstly, addressing what i mention in pretty much every pu post; the viability of stall. Since tauros, kecleon, sneasel and throh have been banned people are now thinking stall is a lot better. Well none of these pokes really beat stall, as each have their counters if niche like solrock or decent like poliwrath, and taunt throh was utter trash considering jumpluff was everywhere and stall wasnt.

This metagame is even more filled with more stallbreakers, stoutland and ursaring where hyped a ton, and what does stall have for them? bulky costa is something, but loses 50% if predicted, and even if stall predicts superpower it doesnt have many scrappy fighting switch ins bar random duosions, this is similar with ursaring except you have to toxic stall and hope it doesnt run sd. Now look at other incredibly strong mons which are popular or should be popular who beat stall: simipour, np raichu, carracosta (stall run rose), barbaracle (similar to costa but wrath cant save you), ninetales, leafeon, hell even poliwrath knowing how easy it is to cripple and weaken roselia. Yes you can say these mons do have checks and counters but many only have one, and its pretty shit being forced to run a poke just in case the opp brings x, y or z. Then there is the prediction argument of 'simipour only 2hkos lickilicky if it predicts correctly', well lets look at the situation:
Simipour predicts correct and 2HKOs - simi wins
Simipour doesnt predict correct and doesnt 2HKO - licki has to wish up as simi gets a free switch into a physical attacker

Either way simipour is in a much better position. The sheer offensive pressure offensive based teams provide is enough to break stall, even if you dont run heatmor and rampardos, most offensive teams naturally have enough pressure to beat stall. Im just talking about specific mons which dent stall, and even if there is a stall team which has a solid switch in to the entire metagame, it doesnt mean it wins. This is another common misunderstanding about stall in this metagame, yes costa can take 2 superpowers from stoutland, but you get 3HKOd, you have to fish for a burn in response, or stoutland switches out and now costa is in range of opposing +2 costa's stone edge. People may disagree with me, but overall stall needs to be in a position in which it has the momentum, and the sheer offensive nature of the meta is enough to stop this and break stall (this is without moves like volt switch and uturn).


This leads me to the next point about what i want to post about; the metagame + possible suspects. I have listed pokes which have a good matchup vs stall, and if you look closer at those pokes, they all put in decent work against offense. simipour and ursaring both have decent speed and the coverage + power. It isnt just them; np chu; base 110 speed, costa; 98 speed after smash + strong priority, barbaracle; has smash, ninetales; 100 speed, leafeon; chloro + 95 speed, wrath; has rain dance. These pokes lack switch ins and are difficult to revenge kill. Im not saying they are broken, just that they are the ones which are making this metagame so offensive and speed based.

Of the s/a+ ranks all but 2 have either a high speed or ways to boost/get around it, then in a, 3/10 pokes dont have speed or priority, and of the 5 who dont fit in either catagory 3 have hazards, and all are useful for their defensive typing (and are used as bulky pivots). It is so easy to build an offensive team with set up sweeper/fast poke/fast poker/hazard/bulky pivot/filler (often set up sweeper). Looking at sample teams; my one is torterra/zeb/scarf mime/piloswine/poliwrath/rapidash, then tones; pawniard/scarf mime/ursaring/whirlipede/missy/piloswine (he is running hazard stacking so his filler is another hazard setter). Pretty much every other sample team fits this (im not saying that this is the only playstyle). Now is there anything that should be done about this? IMO nothing is broken, this is actually the most stable metagame PU has had with no outright broken mon. Is this metagame stale? I cant tell as the metagame is still new and innovating is still happening (which is the best way to prevent a stale metagame - in the PU chat i can see people talk about new gogoat sets c: and semi stall). Currently we have a balanced metagame, and even if there is one dominant playstyle, it isnt centralised and boring

sorry for the long walls of text

 

[Raiza]

the woo got me notice the post
im going to sleep so this has probably no sense
I totally approve your post regarding stall matchups against offensive team and I also appreciate that someone explained how playstyles developed, especially stall, which was hyped by a lot of people, counting me. Though I still think stall got better with the banning of Sneasel and Throh, as the playstyle itself is Eviolite dependant and getting two strong Knock Off users, that gave trouble to the majority of defensive cores, out of the way, is still nice. I also wanted to point out that stall's fear regarding Throh was not only about a Taunt variant, but also the Choice Band set that was getting pretty popular and was able to totally make even common counters such as Togetic in shreds with its great coverage, which includes thunder/ice punch. Of course stall isn't nearly good as it is in other tiers, because of the natural tendency of the tier in favour offensive Pokemon, because there are plenty of them and from what we can see, most of them are good enough to put enough pressure against stall teams and stomp them. I rarely see a stall managing to pull off a convincing win, and in most of the cases, it's only because of large numbers of 50/50s won by the stall user or because of extremely good predictions, that's because stall doesn't have a real way to directly punish the opponent if he fucks up a turn, as most of the Pokemon used on stalls have nearly to zero offensive presence and residual damage is really not enough to answer back, if you compare it to the power of the offensive threats in the tier at the moment. I want to also highlight the fact that there are really few Pokemon that can work as a winning condition on stall teams, because a large part of the tier is made of purely offensive Pokemon, some winning conditions for stalls are Duosion and Clefairy, but they are frail and slow, other than being dependant from Eviolite to at least tank some moves and succesfully set up.

 

[WhiteDMist]

March Usage Stats for PU
Let's have NU's usage stats too

No surprise that Poliwrath was the most used mon in March.

 

[MZ]

Ripplup

 

[Kingler]

| 42 | Electrode | 4.80267% | 3053 | 5.772% | 2532 | 5.995% |
| 49 | Aurorus | 4.18798% | 2594 | 4.904% | 2051 | 4.856% |

and people ask me why i hate ladder

Honestly though, this does form a semi-accurate depiction of the PU metagame. Poli is obviously an incredibly glue for most teams that need a catch-all to many important threats. Pilo is THE choice for bulky offense and balance SRer since it has both the bulk and typing to set rocks consistently; it only really faces competition from Carracosta but its typing is what sets it apart as it checks Electrics and Flying-types, as well as providing important Ice-type priority to RK shit like Jumpluff. The Raichu usage is kinda alarming since Zebstrika usually does most stuff better although scarf is /ok/ i guess and you always have NP.

the main joke here is the #10 sneasel usage lmao

edit: oh @ below i totally forgot that, disregard the sneasel part n_n

 

[WhiteDMist]

Well tbh, they were banned in the middle of the month, which actually speaks to how popular they were that their usage is still so high.

 

[EV]

Speaking of bans, this month's Locked Up challenge in OMs is on the PU ladder http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/locked-up-om-monthly-ladder-challenge.3519142/

 

[Magnemite]

So what is NU giving us next month? Nothing! Well, hopefully something will change, but it's really disappointing that last month had ~5-8 mons below the cutoff and this month doesn't have any. The only change that doesn't involve BL4 mons at all would be us losing Prinplup, which would make for quite possibly the most insignificant tier shift in all of gen 6 tiering, but what is actually interesting is that Poliwrath's NU usage has risen quite a decent amount since last month, which would obviously be a very significant change, so there's both nothing really to theorymon about and quite a bit to theorymon about.

Also:

| 27 | Flareon | 6.60606% | 3981 | 7.526% | 3109 | 7.362% |
| 28 | Jumpluff | 6.51873% | 2446 | 4.624% | 1947 | 4.610% |
| 42 | Electrode | 4.80267% | 3053 | 5.772% | 2532 | 5.995% |
| 51 | Meowstic | 3.98198% | 2903 | 5.488% | 2386 | 5.650% |
| 57 | Lapras | 3.54736% | 2323 | 4.392% | 1823 | 4.317% |
| 58 | Gigalith | 3.48521% | 2242 | 4.239% | 1964 | 4.650% |
| 61 | Simipour | 3.19508% | 1351 | 2.554% | 1030 | 2.439% |
| 107 | Fraxure | 1.36562% | 703 | 1.329% | 501 | 1.186% |

Oh ladder, how you disgust me so (this doesn't even mention all the weird out of place mons, or the fact that Rapidash is somehow way below Flareon)

tldr nu is mean and ladder is bad, but at least the meta's stable

 

[Choice Banned]

So what is NU giving us next month? Nothing! Well, hopefully something will change, but it's really disappointing that last month had ~5-8 mons below the cutoff and this month doesn't have any. The only change that doesn't involve BL4 mons at all would be us losing Prinplup, which would make for quite possibly the most insignificant tier shift in all of gen 6 tiering, but what is actually interesting is that Poliwrath's NU usage has risen quite a decent amount since last month, which would obviously be a very significant change, so there's both nothing really to theorymon about and quite a bit to theorymon about.

Also:

| 27 | Flareon | 6.60606% | 3981 | 7.526% | 3109 | 7.362% |
| 28 | Jumpluff | 6.51873% | 2446 | 4.624% | 1947 | 4.610% |
| 42 | Electrode | 4.80267% | 3053 | 5.772% | 2532 | 5.995% |
| 51 | Meowstic | 3.98198% | 2903 | 5.488% | 2386 | 5.650% |
| 57 | Lapras | 3.54736% | 2323 | 4.392% | 1823 | 4.317% |
| 58 | Gigalith | 3.48521% | 2242 | 4.239% | 1964 | 4.650% |
| 61 | Simipour | 3.19508% | 1351 | 2.554% | 1030 | 2.439% |
| 107 | Fraxure | 1.36562% | 703 | 1.329% | 501 | 1.186% |

Oh ladder, how you disgust me so (this doesn't even mention all the weird out of place mons, or the fact that Rapidash is somehow way below Flareon)

tldr nu is mean and ladder is bad, but at least the meta's stable

The Poliwrath usage was mainly due to Gatr getting Sheer Force, so we're probably keeping Poliwrath as Gatr was banned.

 

[Anty]

My previous post on decent/underrated pokes in the metagme went well so why not another:

This is the most retardedly underused and underprepared for poke in the metagame. I get the feeling people have just forgotten about barbaracle recently, and focused more on carracosta, which is why it is so underprepared for. Fairly recently people have been using pokes like jumpluff and floatzel as there costa checks (or none if your name is kingler12345), which just get stomped on barbaracle, and bulky grass types (tangela, gourgeist), the more traditional ss checks, have fallen in usage a lot lately. This combined with the fact that the metagame in general is getting more offensive is really suiting barbaracle out, as there arent many ways of revenge killing it outside of bulky mons, and most offensive teams as a bulky poke will run piloswine/pelipper/oe which baracle beats. Setting up isnt too hard considering pokes like cb stoutland and rapidash, along with flying/ground/rock/fire mons like pelipper which it forces out, and barbaracle then has the bulk to tank priorities (even without white herb). At +2 it OHKOs most pokes, and some, like gourgeist, only need a small bit of hazard/chip damage to guarantee the KO, and with white herb it takes like 35-40% from priorities like pawniards sucker punch and poliwraths vaccum wave. It is amazing to see how many teams get flat out 6-0d by this yet it is 56th on usage and only 60% are shell smash! Other than tangela/torterra/gourgeist and scarf raichu or haunter/sawsbuck (if adamant), it is really hard to beat after a smash

Not gonna say too much on this as it isnt too badly underused, but both subnp and all out attacker set are amazing in this metagame. Its coverage is immense and due to the lack of stall/lickilicky i have been running taunt in the last slot. This allows simipour to become a great anti lead as it outspeeds whirlipede at +1 (even though venipede is better but w/e), and it still puts in work throughout the battle thanks to its amazing coverage meaning it has no safe switch ins, and unlike pokes such as poliwrath, it is hard to pivot into resisted hits as it is so powerful. The sub np i like despite the amount of priority in the metagame as it is so easy to force foes out due to its typing and coverage (as well as the other set being more popular)

Fraxure has also been forgotten i feel, and although the CB set isnt too useful as slow wallbreakers tend to be shit, the dd set is amazing. Fraxures bulk with eviolite is surprisingly decent, and dragon has really nice resistances allowing it to set up on plenty of pokes (ninetales, zebstrika, etc) and at +1 with jolly it outspeeds all but ninjask and choice scarfers. Its power is also immense, as dragon tends to be a forgotten type in pu, and the steel types get beaten by low kick, and fairy+ice types lose to iron tail. DD + 3 attacks tends to work best for me, i can see the utility of taunt, but you easily get walled by stuff like mime and togetic without. If this gets to +2 you just lose.

The other relevant PU dragon type. Similar to fraxure, i dont feel like the CB set is as good as it was before, however the spdef set is really good right now. Crunch/Dtail/Rest/Thunder Wave is my favourite set, as i have been using it with random clerics (which are also cool), but you can run sleep talk/taunt in the last slot. Zweilous's main appeal is obviously as a ninetales counter, but it also provides a solid psychic switch in, and a check to other fire/water/grass types due to its amazing typing. I also like to run adamant or some attack EVs as other than poliwrath, there arent many dark resists. It is also a nice way to wear down poliwrath (or piloswine/any bulky pokes) to allow pokes like costa to sweep, as if they know it isnt cb/predict crunch, they take 25% + hazards from dragon tail.

Seriously use barbaracle, it is as good as costa, except less people are prepared for it.

 

[Anty]

Its been a week since I last posted so there is no harm in double posting. Although these posts may seem like ones for creative and underrated sets, this is more about the metagame and more discussion gets sparked from posts here, i find.

set

Regigigas @ Leftovers
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 172 HP / 84 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Knock Off
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave / Drain Punch

A couple days ago i said something about regigigas possibly not being as bad as we think (thankfully i didnt get any hate), and upon testing i can say it isnt too bad. People fail to realise that its ability doesnt make it completely useless so will often not really care much about gigas for the first few turns, but what they dont see is that regigigas has huge amounts of bulk, a decent amount more than lickilicky, along with a decent support movepool like thunder wave an knock off. With the current set the main aim was to get out of slow start and put in work, but i also like a bit of bulk on it (this amount lets it create 101 subs despite seismic toss being rare), whereas you can run a really (specially) defensive set as a check to pokes like kadabra, which is where thunder wave gets in. Im not going to comment on specs, but im just going to say that this is an alright poke.

set

Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast / Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave / Healing Wish / Magic Coat

The set is quite obvious, but the last move does depend on personal preference, as twave annoys fire types that try and set up on you, healing wish is very helpful, and magic coat stops rose from setting up on you (often surprises them t1, then you have to switch out in fear of sludge bomb). Other moves can be used, like knock off, heal bell and flamethrower as the last slot really doesnt matter. I think seismic toss is legal on it but i prefer moonblast for taunt missy/poli.

CM clefairy is pretty trash as stall isnt great and cm carbink is better in this metagame as it doesnt get flattened by normals, so honestly this is probably the better set. I first used this when think of a rocks setter which beats poliwrath one on one and wigglytuff lacks recovery, so i went with this, and honestly it has really outdone my estimations. Clefairies high special defense and solid typing have really helped in checking pokes like wrath and simipour, as it can avoid the 2HKO and heal up as it doesnt care if hazards are up. This having stealth rock is also cool, as it means people wont expect stuff like CB torterra, and it finds many opportunities to set up on the switch. This fits in well with balance and certain bulky offensive teams that would like a bulky pivot which isnt electric/ice weak like togetic.

set

Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

With the recent hyping of zebstrika, raichu has been used a lot less as all that raichu has going for it is the ability to hit piloswine, whereas zeb has a better matchup against grass types (particularly rose) and a higher speed tier. I go through the same mindset, as even support moves like encore arent doing too much, but people dont see raichus big niche over zebstrika; nasty plot. NPchu is scary as the best way to play around normal raichu is switching between mons and life orb stall or some how pivot to something that can live a hit, but np can easily set up on the switch, making it harder to play around raichu as at +2 it OHKOs most of the tier. Even offensive rose struggles to take +2 hp ice after rocks, so you pretty much have to sac things vs this. I prefer 3 attacks as if you lose one of the coverage you just get walled by piloswine or grass types, and with 3 attacks you can play it like a regular chu if you arent in a position where you want to set up.

 

[Magnemite]

Ok so if this gets popular I'm going to really regret posting about this but this set is really good and I feel like I should talk about it:

Jumpluff
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Acrobatics
- Seed Bomb
- U-turn

As if Jumpluff weren't annoying enough already, U-turn lets it become a really solid pivot that really messes with a lot of the ways you'd normally deal with it. For example, you can just U-turn on really obvious Zebstrika (or Vigoroth) switch-ins, U-turn out right after putting the opponent's sleep fodder to sleep so they can't just pivot into something that avoids the 2HKO and gain momentum, and just generally be a really annoying pivot that trades your ability to sweep for even more utility than Jumpluff already has. I found myself generally never setting up SDs with Jumpluff, so I decided to use U-turn instead, and it hasn't let me down.

 

[Kingler]

Okay so I've been wanting to make a post for a while but I guess I'll do it now. I think that there is room for creativity but a lot of major offensive threats require checks to; this includes the S ranks and A ranks as well as some underutilized 'mons that have been seeing usage such as Machoke. Offensive CM Grumpig is a cool set that someone from the PU room used against me and put in a lot of work due to surprise factor + decent power + good coverage w/ psyshock focus blast shadow ball. It still checks 'tales fairly well because without LO Dark Pulse + some prior damage Ninetales isn't winning that matchup. It also gives you a decent answer to special tank poli. Normal-types such as Stoutland and Ursaring are pretty great and powerful; most people don't actually factor them in while building which makes them huge nuisances to such teams. I've found Gourgiest-XL (or whatever the rlly big one is called) an incredible physical wall; it actually easily tanks hits from 'mons like Piloswine that hit it super effectively, although it's Ninetales bait. Sand also seems good as always with Stoutland being incredibly powerful and underprepared for. Lead Aurorus is something that has been brought up and used vs. me and it's pretty solid as residual hail dmg + natural power and decent bulk allow it to do a number to quite a few teams. Sun (a variation of mag sun i think which is pretty standardish, for example) is also underprepared for with Victreebel being absolutely fucking gay. Probopass is cool as ever to deal w/ pesky pawniard and pivot out.

I've been having fun with CM Duosion although it seems quite poor as a choice in this meta; it still is pretty bulky and strong, having good coverage w/ signal beam but still being pawniard bait :(

this hasn't been discussed so far in the thread but

potential suspect thoughts

musharna COULD be brought up as a retest as although we've lost two great knock off abusers, mush lost something it checked incredibly well in throh. i'm gonna be honest here and say that i joined after the mush meta and have not played a single game with it, as well as seen calcs of how ridiculous it is, but i've seen a few replays so there's that i guess. i'm not the person who brought this up iirc but i do really like the idea regardless. anyway, i think that at the moment PU is ridden with threats such as CARRACOSTA, Simipour, Ninetales, rd/other variants of poliwrath, jumpluff, leafeon, rotom-f and pawniard, not to mention the many other sweeping threats that a check is almost mandatory to (haha cue kingler doesnt bring costa checks jokes xD). musharna gives us a catch-all as well as a cornerstone for bulkier teams to be able to check a whole slew of mons in one slot. now it does seem bulky as fuck and cm+heal bell might be quite hard to break, but a lot of ppl were undecided on this thing and a retest would shake up the tier in a hopefully positive manner.

I believe that Carracosta should be brought up for a suspect. It has close to zero actual answers and revenge killers such as Zebstrika and Jumpluff can be beaten with an ada aqua jet after rocks and some residual dmg and jolly respectively. poliwrath, considered a universal answer, cannot OHKO with vacuum wave even with the defense drop, and is cleanly OHKOed by a +2 zen headbutt. of course hippopotas and piloswine are 'mons that become good answers in that case but that's a two-for-one deal on a team well-prepared to deal with costa. defensive carracosta survives a +2 hit but can't deal significant enough damage back. leafeon is outsped and cleanly OHKOed. It might not get a ton of setup opportunities but people really underrate the bulk it has with Solid Rock and it can do so on threats such as non Will-O-Wisp (lol @ this move) Rapidash, Choice-locked Stoutland or on a predicted switch (sounds like a cop-out but there are a lot of threats that can't actually OHKO unboosted costa and it can KO back). Its Speed is utterly horrible and there do exist revenge killers, but they are pretty unreliable and Carracosta usually just needs one setup opportunity to sweep teams.

i think this goes without saying but i'm not speaking for the council altho it seems i'm the first person to post about this in this thread itself o_O

 

[Raiza]

I think bringing Carracosta up for a suspect has already been discussed enough, so I'll give some talk about the Musharna retest. I don't really dislike the idea of giving a retest chance to Musharna, as it would fit well into the actual conditions of the metagame, remember when I put on the spotlight the fact that stall and bulkier teams in general didn't have a solid winning condition? Well, Musharna is able to fit that role perfectly, as other Pokemon such as Clefairy and Duosion aren't nearly bulky as it and find set up chances rather rarely, and are more easy to break through, but I also am on the fence, just wanna notice that the tier is pretty stable as it is now, we still have to discover a lot of underrated threats, and people underestimate Musharna's power, as even running a bulky spread, it is able to easily OHKO threats such as Pawniard with Hidden Power Fighting, that even if seems a way too cheesy coverage move to use, along with Psychic and an already high Special Attack stat without investment or Calm Mind boosts, would provide a way too good coverage for the tier, as the things it doesn't break through such as Psychic-types, are setup fodder for it. Musharna would also be able to run a lot of different set and variants, such as the pivot with Thunder Wave and Baton Pass, which also seems really good to check threats listed, such as Carracosta, Simipour, and Ninetales, or the other one with Heal Bell, that makes it difficult to handle by status too, though I don't think it's really worth using, as especially on bulkier teams status can be manageable using a cleric.

 

[Kingler]

i actually didn't see anty's point about the suspects but still no one discussed costa specifically in this thread o_o. This post is just to clarify, I don't think Musharna is a "stall savior" or something like that, I feel like it provides a catch-all to the various threats in the meta to prevent matchup from becoming a huge issue. Whether this in itself will make it broken I honestly don't know, but given the seeming controversy around it I think it would be fine.

I actually don't know about using Mushy on stall but it could just as easily be used on offense to provide a solid check to stuff and support/sweep w/ twave and heal bell or cm respectively. stuff like clefairy and duosion might take a hit but clefairy can still be used for the set anty mentioned (it also checks non-pawniard dark types for mush!)

 

[MZ]

i actually didn't see anty's point about the suspects but still no one discussed costa specifically in this thread o_o. This post is just to clarify, I don't think Musharna is a "stall savior" or something like that, I feel like it provides a catch-all to the various threats in the meta to prevent matchup from becoming a huge issue. Whether this in itself will make it broken I honestly don't know, but given the seeming controversy around it I think it would be fine.

I actually don't know about using Mushy on stall but it could just as easily be used on offense to provide a solid check to stuff and support/sweep w/ twave and heal bell or cm respectively. stuff like clefairy and duosion might take a hit but clefairy can still be used for the set anty mentioned (it also checks non-pawniard dark types for mush!)

I can't post calcs because I'm on mobile, but this greatly underestimates musharna. It's not a catch all for threats, it walls the shit out of everything. I invite you to calc this right now and see how much 252/252+ def or 252/252+ spdef walls. The answer is, practically everything, and it can just destroy teams with its incredible movepool, including calm mind, stored power, moonlight, thunder wave, psychic, baton pass, heal bell, signal beam, hp fighting, toxic, and probably other shit I don't know about. Just because throh is gone doesn't mean mushy wouldn't be used. This thing was broken in a meta with scyther, sneasel, garbodor with T-spikes and CB flareon being way better and more common (mostly because of mushy). It would certainly be broken now where misdreavus and ninetales are just about all we got for it reliably. Yes it'd be nice for something to beat costa, but let's not drop broken to beat broken pls. Musharna isn't a catch-all, it's a broken fetus that walls far too much to ever be healthy. Just calc all the top mons in the tier and see how many are straight setup fodder for max HP max def cm/moonlight/stored power/baton pass, hp fighting or heal bell Mushy

 

[Kingler]

calcs

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 329-387 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 268-316 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 198-234 (45.7 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 210-248 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 199-234 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 156-186 (36 - 42.9%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (this wins either way w/ taunt, can NP and easily break through and this is 0 SpA missy lol)
+2 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 168-198 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is loljumpluff which is quite weak anyway and sleep powder lets it win)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Crunch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 234-276 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
rotom-f can trick
rose can sleep powder

i get that these calcs do mostly not factor in 1v1 situations but it isn't some kind of completely unbreakable wall like you're making it out to be. it isn't even about dropping broken to beat broken, and boiling this down to beating carracosta (which it barely checks) is misconstruing my point. i gave a pretty clear reason as well as the fact that we have reliable dark-types such as pawniard that can deal with it; also, not running heal bell does make you status fodder o_o. This isn't even just "bringing it down," this is just advocating for the retest of a 'mon that might potentially not be broken in the current metagame. If it does turn out to be broken, it can just as easily be left where it is... suspecting and banning a 'mon are based on different criteria for a reason.

i know that the metas were different and there have been significant changes but fwiw the mushy vote was close anyway @_@

 

[MZ]

calcs

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 329-387 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 268-316 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 198-234 (45.7 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 210-248 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 199-234 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 156-186 (36 - 42.9%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (this wins either way w/ taunt, can NP and easily break through and this is 0 SpA missy lol)
+2 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 168-198 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is loljumpluff which is quite weak anyway and sleep powder lets it win)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Crunch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 234-276 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
rotom-f can trick
rose can sleep powder

i get that these calcs do mostly not factor in 1v1 situations but it isn't some kind of completely unbreakable wall like you're making it out to be. it isn't even about dropping broken to beat broken, and boiling this down to beating carracosta (which it barely checks) is misconstruing my point. i gave a pretty clear reason as well as the fact that we have reliable dark-types such as pawniard that can deal with it; also, not running heal bell does make you status fodder o_o. This isn't even just "bringing it down," this is just advocating for the retest of a 'mon that might potentially not be broken in the current metagame. If it does turn out to be broken, it can just as easily be left where it is... suspecting and banning a 'mon are based on different criteria for a reason.

i know that the metas were different and there have been significant changes but fwiw the mushy vote was close anyway @_@

That's a good list, although Ursa could def be added to it. Now consider these points. None of those really like to switch into a combo of psychic and thunder wave other than spdef roselia (setup fodder with no sleep powder), dark types (always afraid of hp fighting) and missy (a good counter obv but not many mons are). Mushy could calm mind as some of these switch in and just bop them, of course a +2 ninetales/costa shits on it that's not the point. Hell, you could even iron defense on a switchin, that isn't too bad of a move considering dual boosting makes this thing almost inpenetrable. It also has a stupidly slow BP, meaning that it's a perfect pivot and CM passer, which only help. Of course you can sleep it, but that's two mons getting past it with a status move, it's never getting past that. You can taunt or encore it, but those are gonna be necessary to have individual moves. Also mushy can just moonlight on a leafeon's knock off and either psychic or BP (I really should've mentioned psychic in those earlier moves mb). Misdreavus and taunt grumpig and a few others are good counters, but overall this is a relatively small list and it's stupidly hard to deal with mushy without taunt/encore/trick, as shown by how many mons didn't make it onto that list up there.

 

[Anty]

I think bringing Carracosta up for a suspect has already been discussed enough, so I'll give some talk about the Musharna retest. I don't really dislike the idea of bringing Musharna back into PU, as it would fit well into the actual conditions of the metagame, remember when I put on the spotlight the fact that stall and bulkier teams in general didn't have a solid winning condition? Well, Musharna is able to fit that role perfectly, as other Pokemon such as Clefairy and Duosion aren't nearly bulky as it and find set up chances rather rarely, and are more easy to break through, but I also am on the fence, just wanna notice that the tier is pretty stable as it is now, we still have to discover a lot of underrated threats, and people underestimate Musharna's power, as even running a bulky spread, it is able to easily OHKO threats such as Pawniard with Hidden Power Fighting, that even if seems a way too cheesy coverage move to use, along with Psychic and an already high Special Attack stat without investment or Calm Mind boosts, would provide a way too good coverage for the tier, as the things it doesn't break through such as Psychic-types, are setup fodder for it. Musharna would also be able to run a lot of different set and variants, such as the pivot with Thunder Wave and Baton Pass, which also seems really good to check threats listed, such as Carracosta, Simipour, and Ninetales, or the other one with Heal Bell, that makes it difficult to handle by status too, though I don't think it's really worth using, as especially on bulkier teams status can be manageable using a cleric.

Before we should bother theorymoning and calcing like kingler and megazard are doing to see if mush is broken, we should see if its worth testing, and I dont think it is, as the only reason we should retest a poke is if it will be healthier for the tier, which mush wouldnt be.
Currently we are in the most balanced metagame of PU with no obvious suspects, so i dont see why we should try and retest something that could only do harm for the metagame. The only thing which may annoy people is to do with the offensive nature of this metagame which is firstly not too much of an issue, and secondly wont change significantly if mush is allowed back (note that when i say 'stall' im talking about defensive playstyles generally with focus on full stall). After running victim of the week thread it is obvious to me why offense is dominant, there are too many offensive threats with no or few checks for stall to be able to handle them all, and that is only talking about major threats such as Simipour, Ursaring, and Stoutland. Of those three dominant pokes, Musharna gets 2HKOd by every one after rocks by there main STAB move. Then there are niche-r stall breakers like marowak and rampardos which will gain use if stall becomes a relevant playstyle, and has the ability to almost 6-0 stall (obviously depends on movesets). It is too early to tell if mush will or wont make stall viable, which brings me to another point; we dont have to try and make the metagame so every playstyle is viable. I believe something similar happened to monotype (no h8 pls), where they tried to unban ubers so each type would be roughly as viable as every other type, however this failed tremendously. Keeping a balanced metagame (eg what we have) is much more important in having an equal, and disrupted metagame. If the mons which you say mush checks need another pokemon in the metagame to balance them, then they should be suspected.

Anyone looking for a tldr (sorry for the block of text) should just read the last two sentances, as it sums up what i am saying well.
e: also this post isnt really aimed at raizas rather at a mush suspect

 

[g]

If we were to retest Musharna and it turns out to be too much for PU to handle the Council will likely vote not to unban it anyway and I think that breaking the PU metagame for a little wouldn't be a problem. I am quite liberal on what and how to suspect test different Pokemon and i didn't really like Musharna getting banned back in XY that much so I guess that retesting it is not something I am opposed to but i trust the PU community and players who will vote (myself included even if i didn't vote Ban in the first place, but the Metagame was different) and they will definitely keep it banned if it needs to be. Regarding Musharna at the moment i would say it could be better than it was before since in my opinion what made it not too good was the massive hazards spam that hindered his role as a pivot (grounded, slow, prone to Toxic Spikes) to the point it was too pressured and heal up that now isn't as prevalent even thought stuff like Taunt Probopass and Pawniard can now deal with it very nicely.

Regarding Carracosta I will just repeat that it struggles to set up against too many Pokemon in the current metagame to be called broken and even then PU has a lot of reliable ways to deal with setup sweepers like it both offensively (Kadabra, Choice Scarf user, very fast Pokemon) and defensively (Tangela in its case as well as Poliwrath).

It doesn't really make sense to talk about suspect test right now with a tier shift ready to change the tier in two weeks in my opinion and i think that not forcing useless suspect tests right now is not the right thing to do. Just enjoy this cool metagame smh.

 

[Raiza]

Before we should bother theorymoning and calcing like kingler and megazard are doing to see if mush is broken, we should see if its worth testing, and I dont think it is, as the only reason we should retest a poke is if it will be healthier for the tier, which mush wouldnt be.
Currently we are in the most balanced metagame of PU with no obvious suspects, so i dont see why we should try and retest something that could only do harm for the metagame. The only thing which may annoy people is to do with the offensive nature of this metagame which is firstly not too much of an issue, and secondly wont change significantly if mush is allowed back (note that when i say 'stall' im talking about defensive playstyles generally with focus on full stall). After running victim of the week thread it is obvious to me why offense is dominant, there are too many offensive threats with no or few checks for stall to be able to handle them all, and that is only talking about major threats such as Simipour, Ursaring, and Stoutland. Of those three dominant pokes, Musharna gets 2HKOd by every one after rocks by there main STAB move. Then there are niche-r stall breakers like marowak and rampardos which will gain use if stall becomes a relevant playstyle, and has the ability to almost 6-0 stall (obviously depends on movesets). It is too early to tell if mush will or wont make stall viable, which brings me to another point; we dont have to try and make the metagame so every playstyle is viable. I believe something similar happened to monotype (no h8 pls), where they tried to unban ubers so each type would be roughly as viable as every other type, however this failed tremendously. Keeping a balanced metagame (eg what we have) is much more important in having an equal, and disrupted metagame. If the mons which you say mush checks need another pokemon in the metagame to balance them, then they should be suspected.

Anyone looking for a tldr (sorry for the block of text) should just read the last two sentances, as it sums up what i am saying well.
e: also this post isnt really aimed at raizas rather at a mush suspect

I already talked with Anty but just to make sure other people don't misunderstand my post, I wasn't totally approving a Musharna retest, I basically was saying that it could be worth giving a chance, and I stated later in the post that I was on the fence about it bc if it showed to be way too good during a retest it could be easily not unbanned. I also was discussing pro and cons in retesting it, not really if it was broken or not in the actual metagame.

e: galbia outspeed