repeating what i said about zoroark in the previous np thread
I gotta admit I haven't really played much post-Shuckle ban, but I did play a bit here and there and I noticed people using Ariados and Leavanny (and even Masquerain) to replace Shuckle on a Sticky Web team, and it simply isn't that effective. It's very easy killing both of them since they're pretty frail, and then using Defog or Rapid Spin pretty much removes Sticky Web permanently. They still use spinblockers like Doublade and Braviary to deter Defog, but thanks to no Stealth Rock (unlike Shuckle) they're not exactly as hard to deal with on any well-built team. I don't think Sticky Web poses a threat right now, and it seems to me like Shuckle was indeed the problem and not Sticky Web itself.
On the matter of Zoroark, I'll have to agree that it's pretty damn scary with those mixed offenses, decent speed tier, and good movepool consisting of all the STABs it could ever ask for in Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Night Daze/Dark Pulse, and then some cool coverage moves like Flamethrower and Grass Knot. It's a good Pokemon to use along sweepers to lure their typical checks and counters thanks to Illusion mindgames, and it's Illusion ability gives it easy chances to setup with Swords Dance or Nasty Plot thanks to the switches it can force when disguised as the proper Pokemon, and a +2 Knock Off/Sucker Punch/Dark Pulse from Zoroark hurts. It's most threatening aspect, however, is how easy it force mindgames and lure specific threats to the team when disguised as something else, and then using coverage moves or Knock Off to get rid of them. Examples of this are disguising as Fletchinder to lure Rhyperior and KO it with Grass Knot, or Moltres/Delphox to lure Water-types like Slowking and Jellicent and KO them with Knock Off.
Moving on to answering Molk's questions in the post, I think Zoroark is a strong force to be reckoned with. You can't just underestimate a Pokemon with 105/120/105 attacking stats, especially when it has access to a wonderful movepool. It's one of the best priority users with its access to Sucker Punch, and its speed is rather good, letting it outspeed a lot of things, while sadly missing the jump on some Pokemon like Cobalion and Virizion. That, combined with its access to set up moves and mindgames with Illusion easily grants it a spot as a top-tier threat, and that's exactly why it's S-rank in the viability rankings right now.
I haven't used all of Zoroark's sets, but I've used Mixed with Knock Off, Grass Knot, Flamethrower, and Sucker Punch, and the Swords Dance set. Both of them were really, really good, especially the Swords Dance set, since it can find set up opportunities so easily when disguised as something else, and then it can proceed to fire off Life Orb-boosted +2 Knock Offs or Sucker Punches. What's even better is that thanks to its speed, it can't easily be dispatched by priority because it can carry its own in Sucker Punch, unlike other Pokemon like Delphox and Sharpedo, who easily die to them.
I've had most success pairing Zoroark with Fire-type Pokemon and specifically, Delphox, Moltres, and Fletchinder. Since they're such strong Pokemon the opponent would almost never hesitate in sending out their regular checks and counters because it's not worth the risk; only to be surprised by a Swords Dance followed by a Knock Off or a straight up Knock Off/coverage move to get rid of said counter. Pairing it with some Pokemon that share the same move can also go a long way in even creating more mindgames, with Pokemon like Gallade etc. who typically also carry Knock Off. In short, pairing it with sweepers is most effective for its ability to lure in their checks & counters.
The best way of telling Zoroark apart from other Pokemon is by closely keeping note of the damage each Pokemon received so you won't be fooled when a 100% HP Zoroark comes into play. It's also best to have hazards on the field so the cover is blown if its disguised as a Pokemon that doesn't take neutral damage from Stealth Rock. Life Orb recoil can also help if the Zoroark is holding a Life Orb, since its easy to tell which Pokemon got LO recoil and which didn't, and therefore be able to tell if its a Zoroark or not.
Checking and countering Zoroark can be a bit tough since you'll never know what it'll disguise as, but once you do then it isn't as hard. For one, Aromatisse is pretty much a hard counter to any set Zoroark carries, so there's that. Then there are Cobalion and Virizion, who are faster but the former doesn't exactly like switching into Flamethrower (252 spa LO has a high chance of OHKOing) and so does the latter, but it's not OHKO'd at least. They're both faster and can easily OHKO with their STAB. Then there are Sharpedo and Speed Boost Yanmega, while Sharpedo takes quite a bit from Sucker Punch, it doesn't die and can easily revenge kill. Same goes to Yanmega. Choice Scarfers in general who don't die too quickly to Sucker Punch can revenge kill it too, and hazards can blow its cover.
In the end, I'm not sure how I feel about a suspect test for Zoroark, right now I'm kinda torn, so I'll have to wait until the actual suspect test to form an opinion on whether I want it banned or not.
And an important thing to note on Zoroark is that yes, its ruse is really scary and often times works easily without much effort, but in most cases it only works once and while people can argue that once is good enough, one could also argue that it isn't enough. It can go bothways, and once Zoroark's cover is blown it will usually stay blown the rest of the match.
On Yanmega:
While I am torn on Zoroark and kinda leaning towards no ban even if what I said earlier might sound that I want it banned, I'm not torn on Yanmega. Its power can't be ignored, the Tinted Lens set has so very few switch ins and every defensive team has to specifically have answers devoted to countering it only. While I think that the Tinted Lens set is arguably the better of the two because of how much damage it can do to defensive teams, the speed boost set cannot be ignored either, and I'll get back to the Tinted Lens set later on. The Speed Boost set is incredible against offensive teams since pretty much nothing can outspeed it after a boost or two, and it's got respectable power with a Modest nature and Life Orb, with a strong STAB in the form of Bug Buzz, a less powerful STAB in Air Slash, and good coverage with Giga Drain or Shadow Ball, meaning Rhyperior and Doublade can't switch in for free or counter Yanmega. And something important that Yanmega has over the other Speed Boost user in the tier -Sharpedo-, is actual bulk to work with, and an x4 resistance to the most common priority in the tier right now which is Mach Punch. It's bulk means it doesn't instantly die to Mach Punch like Sharpedo, and it can take a Sucker Punch rather well, while only being weak to Ice Shard which isn't very prevalent, and only used on Pokemon like Abomasnow and Piloswine and Phanpy. However, while Speed Boost does very good vs. offense, it often doesn't do as good vs. stall and more defensive teams in general, lacking the Tinted Lens' raw power, which brings me to the next point: Tinted Lens is absolutely hell for defensive teams.
Let me go through the things that can switch into it easier than other Pokemon: SpDef Aromatisse, SpDef Lickilicky, SpDef Registeel, SpDef Golbat and SpDef Togetic are most notable since they're the most relevant in the RU metagame. Of those 5 Pokemon, 2 (Aromatisse and Golbat) are usually better as physically defensive for various reasons, although the former can go both ways since Fairy is that good of a typing, but let's be real here, SpDef Golbat really doesn't sound that good to me, especially since the phys defensive set is considered a good counter to a number of physical attackers, and most of its weaknesses are from special attacks like ice beam, thunderbolt, and psychic. SpDef Lickilicky (the god) is honestly a pretty solid switch in especially since it can knock off Yanmega's specs, somewhat hindering it quite a bit with the loss of power, so I'll give it that. Togetic is really eh in the metagame from my experience and kinda mediocre so yeah, and then theres SpDef Registeel which a lot of people consider the best counter to Yanmega, and since Dugtrio forms the most amazing offensive core with Yanmega, that can easily get rid of it. If I'm being honest here, Yanmega is reminding me a lot of Tornadus in stage 0, but a bit less threatening since it doesn't have the same coverage (and thank god). Unlike the Speed Boost variant, Tinted Lens Yanmega doesn't excel against one playstyle and sucks vs. the other, since it's not very bad against offense. While yes, 95 speed can be underwhelming, failing to outspeed Virizion, Cobalion, Delphox, Zoroark etc. it is still not terrible, since it can still outspeed threats such as Hitmonlee, Braviary, Gallade, Moltres, etc. and whats even better is that since it x4 resists Fighting and having access to decent bulk, it can hold its own against offensive teams.
Some things can keep Yanmega from being that dangerous, such as its somewhat low speed (which I spoke about) and its x4 weakness to Stealth Rock, but those aren't big enough of flaws to outweigh all what it does. That, and Defog/Spin support isn't hard when the tier houses few yet great spinners and defoggers such as Lee and Gligar.
That's all I have to say for now, I might come back later but yeah.
tl;dr
- Zoroark is annoying and very good but not as broken as people say because most of the time its ruse can only work once and with life orb it gives itself away.
- Speed Boost Yanmega sucks against stall but very good against offense
- Tinted Lens Yanmega is very good against stall being countered by very few threats that either aren't as good in the current metagame, or can be easily dealt with, and can hold its own against offense
- banmega, not-sure-oark
