Metagame NP: Stage 6 - Don't Rain On My Parade (quickbans post 10)

[etern]

Brace yourself NU, we've just gotten a monumental shift and lost some meta-defining mons that'll shake up the tier completely.

Gained (+): Altaria, Bronzong, Brute Bonnet, Lycanroc, Palossand, Slowbro-Galar, Tatsugiri, Golem, Golem-Alola, Leavanny, Ludicolo, Politoed, Shaymin , Snorlax, Victreebel, Arbok, Ariados, Chimecho, Cramorant, Dusknoir, Furret, Illumise, Volbeat, Magcargo, Mightyena, Morpeko, Noctowl, Phione, Poliwrath, Probopass, Sandslash, Swanna, Trevenant, and Weezing.


Lost (-): Blissey, Drifblim, Tsareena, andUmbreon.

Tier Shift Graphic

Expect a post from Rabia later today re: our initial quickbans and plans for tiering throughout the month, but until then, let us know what you think will rise to the top of this new meta! Enjoy!​

 

[Phantomistix]

- Weather: I doubt any of the three weather archetypes will be balanced, especially the ones with automatic setters. Rain especially is a very obvious quickban to me, with how many abusers we gained in addition to the ones we already had in the tier (Bruxish, Floatzel, Goodra). Sand will be very strong considering we got the dog back, as well as Sandslash and existing abusers like Houndstone. Volbeat is back too.

- Other HO structures: The dog is back, as well as Golem-Alola, both of which are great HO lead options, and we also get a bunch of threats including Slowbro-Galar and Tatsugiri, and Chimeco and Snorlax for the bulkier setup type of sweeper.

- Stall: We lost Umbreon, Blissey and Drifblim but I don't think stall is finished. In fact, I think it gets better with additions like Bronzong, Altaria, Slowbro-Galar, Politoed, Poliwrath, Dusknoir, Weezing.

- Pokemon I think will be top tier/bannable:
Has great all round stats and steroids CM, will be a massive threat considering how starved we are for defensive options on the special side.
Rain or no rain, this mon has the stats and the moves to be a massive threat. Hard to tell if it will be bannable but definitely something to watch out for.
I don't think there is a world where this pokemon is balanced. CB alone might break the tier.
Probably the most splashable pokemon in the tier, fits on a variety of structures and can run many sets. Might be too strong.
Unless you are using Trevenant, I think Resttalk Scald Circle Throw can probably solo the majority of teams, couple that with the rain abusing set and you have a top tier threat to watch out for.
Fat, Strong, Spore.
We actually have a steel type now, welcome back GOAT.

- Please ban Jolteon.

Edit: phione is ass I didn't realize take heart doesn't cure sleep

 

[Perla]

I don't think that the meta will change a lot with the new drops.
There are some potentially ban-worthy archetypes like Rain and ban-worthy mons like Glowbro , Shaymin , Snorlax (the first one might be a nuisance with Quick Draw/Quick Claw cheese).


Losing an important defensive part of the tier is kinda bad: it helps some problematic mons like Jolteon and further covers with concrete the current NU banlist.

Considering that sooner or later the QDers will have to be unbanned at some point, I think that the possibility of adopting open tera should be discussed.
I believe that some QDers would be more manageable if you knew their tera from the beginning.
That would also help with Jolteon: if you see Ice, you keep your Coalossal or Piloswine; if you see water, you wall it with a grass type (Coalossal or Piloswine + a grass type is a sensible core). It's just food for thought.

Anyway I'm happy with a number of these drops and I'm looking forward to trying them

 

[Shinto7654]

Lycanroc dropping will definitely be annoying for pretty much every Salazzle, but what can you do. It plus whatever else might handle it well that dropped will hopefully let it stay and just be a very good part of the tier so I can keep using SubToxicEncore lol. Bronzong is also a Mon I have some fondness for from the time I was used offensive Trick Room back in Gen 4. Definitely wouldn't work nowadays, but still, nice to see the bell around, and I might play around with like, setup shenanigans with Body Press. I am happy that my boy Grimmsnarl doesn't seem like they'll be affected super hard by the drops from what I can tell. Hell, it feels like a Bulk up set with Taunt might even take very nice advantage of some of the new stuff that drops, but we'll have to see

Pretty sure Politoed will be booted before the day is out, so not really much to talk about there, but maybe also Snorlax will get kicked out idk

 

[Rabia]

NU COUNCIL HAS AGREED TO QUICKBAN VULPIX + POLITOED (hi Marty and Kris) BECAUSE THIS SHIFTS TIMING IS TRAGIC

we'd otherwise be happy to keep the weather in the tier for a few days to see just how it is adapted to if it's possible, but with multiple major tournaments happening at the moment, we've decided it's better to play it safe and not risk tournament integrity. these bans WILL be looked back at before the year ends, along with any other quickbans that we've done.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

NU COUNCIL HAS AGREED TO QUICKBAN VULPIX + POLITOED (hi Marty and Kris) BECAUSE THIS SHIFTS TIMING IS TRAGIC

we'd otherwise be happy to keep the weather in the tier for a few days to see just how it is adapted to if it's possible, but with multiple major tournaments happening at the moment, we've decided it's better to play it safe and not risk tournament integrity. these bans WILL be looked back at before the year ends, along with any other quickbans that we've done.

Hey Rabia, can we drop Inteleon from NUBL? The new drops, especially tatsugiri and brute bonnet, as well as glowbro (However long that lasts) should really help with dealing with it.

 

[DimLug]

Here's how I feel about the drops, at least the ones that stick out to me:

Another Defogger with other decent utility with Will-O-Wisp and Natural Cure are always welcome. Offensive sets may occasionally catch some people off guard too. The biggest issue I see it facing is, unless you're fine with having two Dragon types, it faces intense competition from . Yes, they serve very different roles, but with how insanely strong offensive Goodra is now, Altaria might be more obscure than it deserves to be. Then again, with how polar opposite it is from Goodra, it may be more popular than I think.

A generic defensive stealth rocker is likely the first thing on people's minds, and it'll probably be fine at that, but I think setup sets are what people will turn to since the tier doesn't have any shortage of stealth rockers. Could also be a solid Trick Room setter if anyone wanted to try that archetype.

Insanely high attack, solid bulk, and access to Spore. All of which are excellent traits. The problems? The typing is horrible defensively without tera, you'll likely be clicking Sucker Punch most of the time for an attack unless you're under Trick Room. I don't know, this is a weird one. It could either destroy or get destroyed depending on the matchup I feel like. I'd need to see it in action more to have a real opinion on it.

My first thought was that rain could be busted if/when this guy becomes legal. But honestly I don't know why I thought there were more swift swimmers in the tier than there actually is. will be a real threat when paired with it, and Swords Dance sets from / could become more popular. Maybe sees a bit of a rise? Rain teams could still be very strong but I don't know to what extent.

Oh cool. We lost but we gained a more offensively threatening version of it and a way to become physically bulky. Couple that with it being one of the few things left that can reliably tank , this guy might be broken. Not much to else to say, both of it's abilities are very good, it has great longevity, and great coverage.

Nice we got at home. Good bulk and Natural Cure makes defensive sets a viable strategy. But it also has respectable enough offensives to run an attacking set, most likely a special attacker, but I've already seen a Swords Dance set running around lol. Might face some competiton as a specially offensive Grass type but it's bulky enough and has good enough coverage to set itself apart I think.

 

[PowerOfMemes]

Just gonna give my thoughts on the drops so far.

an actually good defogger with great resists n coverage for steel-types. dd seems like a meme but i’ve seen it on ladder (sure ladder is ass) but I will prolly see for myself. also ig trapping sets exist but I believe it would get chipped away to easily—I have yet to try it tho.

an actual steel-type with rocks that beats set-up sweepers n kills with idef bpress with psychic for lazzle and fighting-type deletion.

my first thoughts were cb or spore + 3 Atks, but after thinkin abt I believe that spdef bonnet is best. it resists a ton of common stuff in the tier like electric-, ghost-, water-, and psychic-types in jolteon, hoopa, and bruxish. spore + synth + crunch/sucker with cc served me well.

sandaconda sand is cringe n not that good but can definitely be usable with this mon.

a ground type with recovery and rocks. no need for ghost tera—conda has been replaced nearly completely.

haven’t played with it a ton, but from what I have played it’s amazing with regen + cm or lucky quick draw + quick claw strats.

defensively, nothing takes its hits, but it’s surprisingly frail. relatively sad spinner; however, np + spin speed boost is demonic.

ho fodder mons.

maybe specs breaker or scarf hwish could be interesting but there’s a bit of competition for both but the ladder seems promising. but zong walls unless ur skillful with drops.

cb breaks everything in the tier with stab + crunch/eq and smth for orthworm. thick fat also helps it with finding openings. curse also probably is great but the issue i have with it is that zong beats it (sure i use idef bpress + night shade too much but it beats it perfectly, so…).

replacement for lycanroc n hazard control that has koff (n spikes I think) thats a ground-type.

surprisingly passable defogger. it’s just altaria but you get koff + pivoting in flip turn as a trade-off for your worse bulk.

this is just qwilfish but with a ground immunity n somewhat passable recovery in pain split. you also get wisp + fire coverage and t spikes to eff around with opponents.

rip blim, tsar, n umb

 

[Rabia]

https://pokepast.es/e403c03935e1df6f


Sand has felt pretty strong in the limited games I've used it in. The setter options are pretty poverty sadly, but the abusers are pretty diverse and VERY effective at wallbreaking. All of Houndstone, Lycanroc, and Sandslash work wonderfully to tear through teams despite none of them being particularly great at getting past physical walls on their own---I think maybe Swords Dance on Lycanroc or Sandslash could be worthwhile to help in that regard. Defensively, I think it's definitely hard to feel super safe against special wallbreakers, but most of them pose little threat when your sand is up. I don't think sand is overbearing like sun and rain were, but it's an archetype that I think you should build in mind with---and of course try for yourself.

 

[Rabia]

The NU council voted on a slate of Brute Bonnet, Galarian Slowbro, Shaymin, Snorlax, and Tatsugiri this weekend. The results are below.

Per this slate, Brute Bonnet, Galarian Slowbro, and Snorlax are all quickbanned from NU (Kris or Marty please implement thank you).

Brute Bonnet was actually added to the slate midway through, as the SCL games combined with people's ladder + test games proved its impact too great to justify keeping it around in the tier. Spore / Sucker Punch / Crunch were basically always run, and from there the last moveslot was any of Seed Bomb / Close Combat / Synthesis / Bullet Seed. Its item could range from longevity-increasing ones like Leftovers and Heavy-Duty Boots to damage buffers like Booster Energy and Black Glasses.

Brute Bonnet excels because of its IMMACULATE stat distribution; there's really not much waste of BST here beyond Special Attack getting too much love. It's strong as hell and bulky as hell too, meaning you're often not OHKOing it too easily, and offensive threats have to consistently play around the threat of Tera Dark Sucker Punch, which has some nasty damage rolls like doing upwards of 80% to Scyther for example. Defensive counterplay is also pretty absent because most switch-ins simply get put to sleep or take a million from one of Brute Bonnet's coverage moves. Council did feel like a bit more exploration of counterplay could be done, but the amount possible was unlikely great enough to justify keeping Brute Bonnet around for now.

Galarian Slowbro has the stupid Quick Draw + Quick Claw set that is wildly uncompetitive. Beyond that, your typical bulky setup sets with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot are super hard to stop because of Terastallization, superb coverage, and great longevity. It's just really hard to actually force Glowbro down because it's so bulky and has Slack Off + Regenerator to keep it going, with Terastallization flipping matchups on their heads and meaning potential answers like Grimmsnarl, Tera Dark Toxicroak, and Decidueye aren't so consistent. This doesn't even touch on Assault Vest sets, which, particularly due to Blissey and Umbreon leaving, have the coverage and power to mess around with just about any switch-in.

Snorlax is much like Glowbro in that its sheer bulk and Terastallization make it SUPER hard to force down once it gets going. A lot of people employed options like Encore Salazzle and Trick Mismagius to contain it, but these methods are super prediction reliant and not overly consistent. One of the drawbacks to Snorlax certainly is you want to bring it in on special attackers, and many of them like Salazzle and Goodra have methods to cripple it (and Goodra can just smash you with Choice Specs Draco Meteor if you aren't careful enough), but this effect is often temporary.

Just like last time, we will be revisiting these bans as the metagame progresses ^^

 

[roxie]

I wanted to post on this but I heavily agree with Snorlax. Thick Fat / Immunity have historically been amazing abilities on Snorlax as the former chunks attacks from the likes of Salazzle and Goodra as the latter makes it not be on a "Toxic-timer" resulting in Rest being used slightly less since it is immune to Toxic. Terastalization is a totally different ballgame because instead of just running a flexible move selection like Crunch for Bronzong & Hoopa or maybe Earthquake for Toxicroak and Copperajah, you can terastalize and pretty much check the Pokémon that's intended to check you. This kind of makes me observe terastalization on a larger policy aspect. I haven't seen any SCL games featuring Snorlax so I'll share some games I've played during the TLT Ladder. Some Pokemon that comes to mind to replace Snorlax are Hariyama, Muk, and Copperajah.

https://pokepast.es/2736932418dc67d7
Game 1 | Game 2

NP + Spin

Tatsugiri @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Dragon / Fairy / Ghost / Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Rapid Spin

Tatsugiri offers a lot to the tier. Nasty Plot allows it to break past bulky Pokemon like Bronzong and Goodra. Storm Drain also compliments this because we have Pokemon like choice-locked Bruxish which forces your opponent to switch if a turn is mispredicted. Tatsugiri is also faster than Goodra, but Goodra is also very bulky and tera exists so I think it'll be some interesting 1v1s because of tera lol..and the general team compositions. Rapid Spin is also amazing because it compresses hazard control in a hazard friendly tier. It also allows you to outpace Primeape, Heracross, and many others after you get that speed boost.

Choice Specs

Shaymin @ Choice Specs
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Healing Wish

Shaymin + Goodra was my special wallbreaker duo in my aforementioned team and it has a couple of checks in the tier like Bronzong, Goodra, and Articuno. Furthermore, the former two Pokémon being so prominent in the tier makes it not as effective. Sword Dance sets have been discussed with its STAB + Play Rough and I think running Tera Blast: Ghost/Fire/Ground gives it a boost to help with Poison- and Steel-types.

 

[Catalisador]

proof of peak


click the sprites for importable​

Hey, y'all! Your favourite unmon advocate is back in business! Today, I'd like to share my thoughts on one of my favourite archetypes to play: hyper offense, specifically SAND!
I reached the 1500s in a single sitting today spamming the same sand team on ladder and, after that experience, I personally view sand as a somewhat unhealthy playstyle right now. Nothing in the tier is equipped well enough to handle the plethora of abusers that sand possesses. With three spectacular breakers in Sandslash, Lycanroc and Houndstone, the playstyle is able to thrive by breaking wannabe checks with one dog (yes, Sandslash is a dog) and procceeding to clean with another dog in the back. Also, enablers like Healing Wish Shaymin and Healing Wish Mesprit further enhance sand's snowballing potential, allowing for reckless plays to go unpunished as you can always bring back the dogs from the brink of dying (well, except Houndstone, he's already dead after all..).
But enough blabbering! Let's get to the team spotlight!

​

Hippopotas is our best (and only) sand setter. The set I chose was pretty standard, with Stealth Rock allowing us to get crucial KOs, such as OHKOing Rotom-Mow with Sandslash's Leech Life without needing to waste our Tera. Earthquake is our main STAB, letting Hippopotas deal some chip damage for the dogs in the back. Slack Off is our means of reliable recovery, which allows Hippopotas not to crumble in front of Taunt. Whirlwind was the last move of choice as to not allow the hippo to become setup fodder. Hippopotas is here to get sand up turn 1 and not much else, to be honest.

​

Lycanroc is the first of our holy trinity. The moveset of choice (pun intended) was that of a Choice Band all-out attacker. I've chosen Choice Band over Swords Dance as Lycanroc already boasts a pretty high attack stat and can cleanly get OHKOes and 2HKOes on most relevant mons on the metagame, so going for an SD just seemed like overkill. Stone Edge is our strongest STAB and lets the dog pick crucial OHKOes and 2HKOes, whereas Tera Blast (Rock) provides a 100% accurate STAB so we don't have to get frisky with the odds. Accelrock is an option of priority to revenge kill weakened opposing pokemon and Close Combat is our way to muscle past Steel-types.

​

Next, I needed a way to muscle past fatter teams that Lycanroc wouldn't be able to break on its own. So enter Sandslash! The dog (yes, as I've mentioned previously, Sandslash IS a dog) is used mainly because of Swords Dance to boost its breaking potential. It can usually reliably get an SD off thanks to its passable bulk and great defensive typing, if played correctly. Earthquake is the STAB of choice whereas Leech Life lets it get the KO on bulky Grass-types such as Shaymin and Rotom-Mow. Tera Bug was chosen as a way to enhance Leech Life, but alternatively Tera Ground can work to boost its STAB even further. Stone Edge was last as a way to hit Flying-types and for its near-perfect coverage in conjunction with STAB EQ.

​

Lastly, comes Houndstone. With Poltergeist, it is able to muscle past troublesome mons for the first two breakers (mainly Bronzong). Tera Ghost further enhances Poltergeist's breaking prowess and lets the dog get KOes previously unobtainable. Shadow Sneak was chosen next for priority, whereas Trick was chosen for its ability to punish bulky setup sweepers such as Snorlax and Dudunsparce. Lastly, Play Rough was a way to reliably hit Dark-types in a pinch.

​

With the holy trinity completed, I wanted a way to support them even further while adding a somewhat defensive glue. Shaymin was chosen for its ability to resist both Water- and Grass-type attacks and access to Healing Wish to heal back the dogs. Its moveset is the standard 3 attacks + Healing Wish for maximum coverage, but you'll mostly only be clicking Seed Flares and Healing Wishes.

​

Next, I wanted a way to get my breakers on the field reliable. Then I chose Eject Button Slowbro-Galar for its great defensive profile. Then it got banned cause the council are a bunch of COWARDS!! (jk) Then, I replaced it with Mesprit, which served a similar defensive purpose. Psychic was the STAB of choice and Dazzling Gleam meant it wouldn't become useless against Dark-types. Encore was a way to punish setup sweepers like Snorlax and Articuno-Galar. Lastly, a second user of Healing Wish provided even more support to the dogs in the back.

Troublesome mons for the team are Iron Defense Bronzong and Protect users that can stall out the sand as well as Trailblaze setuppers like SD Scyther and SD Heracross, so watch out for those.


Lastly, I wanted to hear: what are y'all's thoughts on sand in the current meta?

 

[cyrtie]

Sandaconda went from PU last gen to a top NU pokemon this gen. Hope he gets to stay there, sandaconda always deserved some love. Let’s make the NU metagame discussion more active again! (the main reason I made this post)

 

[Kiyo]

I agree cyrtie this thread could use some more life! I think is an interesting topic seeing as it was arguably the only viable ground type we had before the recent influx of new Pokemon from tier shifts and DLC1. I’m most interested in hearing from other community members about how their teambuilding has been affected by the influx of viable ground-type pokemon. We have access to several cool new tools in Gligar, Palossand, Golem, PIloswine, and Sandslash.

There’s been some recent discussion in the nu room and discord over the past few days about I think my general gripe with it is that everything and its mother is running Knock Off right now and the Ghost-type can be a bit of a double-edged sword in that regard. It’s great to be naturally better at switching into Fighting-types like Heracross, Tauros-Paldea-Fire, and Sneasel-H. If you can make a fighter click something other than Close Combat you are doing something right. I would say this is where the games can get interesting. I would argue Palossand is much better offensively than Sandaconda and has a harder time getting walled outright - Shadow Ball and Earth Power are reasonably strong with decent coverage into the tier. I think Palossand leads me into building teams with a dedicated knock target or running colbur and ensuring I have the hazard control to justify that decision. I don’t like these concessions in theory, but they’re not unreasonable to accommodate.

is a personal favorite of mine and it has found it’s way on to several of my teams as of late. The STABs are good, easy to click, you are bulky enough with max HP and Eviolite to live pretty much anything you could ask, throw in Stealth Rock and Ice Shard and we have a solid B to A rank Pokemon. That’s not to mention Thick Fat and Oblivious are both viable depending on your team composition. I was a really big fan of Thick Fat Piloswine during the Umbreon meta when a lot of players were opting for Tera-Ice Jolteon because you essentially hard walled it after they Terastalized and you didn’t even need to have a lot of HP to do the job. I’ve run more Specially Defensive sets that aim to do things like avoid a 4HKO from Jolteon Tera Blast / Shadow Ball after rocks, which, while much weaker offensively, can function more effectively as a pivot into many of the tier’s Special Attackers. Piloswine can be a little same-y to build with since the Grass- and Fighting-type checks it needs to partner with can be a little redundant when they are so good, looking at you Goodra.

I haven’t tried since Snorlax got the boot, which is sad because now I can’t pretend I’m playing gen5uu like the good ol’ days. I think even moreso than Palossand I want to build with a dedicated knock target here, although Acrobatics can mitigate some of the value you lose from Eviolite being gone if you must due to teambuilding constraints or prefer to play Gligar as the primary switch to things like Heracross and Toxicroak. I think Dachsbun is a really cool partner for Gligar, provides the Wish support that made this thing so good in Umbreon meta and can tank knock from Hera and the greedy Toxicroak that doesn’t run a Poison move. I’d prefer to let others speak on how Gligar affects their building since I admittedly have less experience with this one in current gen.

I think and are both pretty cool. Golem has been a favorite through the generations for me, I typically just toss CB on it and watch things die. Haven’t tried him yet this gen, but expect good things, but not great. Sandslash is cool on sand, sometimes I wonder if he’s good with spin spikes knock eq or something but I will almost certainly never complete a comp with him without some incentive like a room event.

I am excited to hear how the new options have affected everyone’s building and playstyles as the new meta continues to develop - so please, do share!

 

[Shinto7654]

Guess I could talk about my time using Offensive Bulk Up Grimmsnarl, specifically a Jolly variant running Blackglasses. Basically just very good at managing to sweep through more frail offensive teams and even just more balanced teams with a bit of effort. It's not even very hard to find time for it to setup between the switches it forces and the immunites/resist's its typing gives (Bruxish in particular you can just take advantage of like, half the moves it will usually run on Choice sets from my experience). Hell, I would say that the lowered usage of stuff like Sandaconda help it out since Sandaconda could at least take a hit and Glare back to most often stop a sweep, meanwhile Palossand gets effortlessly torn apart and Piloswine can't even do anything against you unless it ran something like Roar. As for using both Jolly and Blackglasses, i'm sure Adamant and a different item would work better, but I like that Jolly outspeeds the Pokemon that are trying to speed creep neutral nature max speed base 60's as well as a small benefit of catching any Neutral nature base 70's by a single point. Honestly just in general I don't think a whole lot of teams are considering Grimmsnarl when they're making them considering the whole chaos with the amount of drops we got recently, so it can thrive pretty well all things considered

A thing on Bronzong i've also been trying out is Trick Room as a 4th moveslot while using it as my SR setter. I'm not sure you could call it much better then a gimmick over stuff like Hypnosis, but I know i've been able to suddenly turn games into switching prediction fests on an opponent as they try to stall out the turns and even won a game or two due to it, so I think it's a fun option at the very least. Plus I honestly think it's not a bad option what with the amount of copypaste Freezai HO and assorted weather teams running around. IDK, maybe thats me not being the best, but I still like it nonetheless.

Been Also thinking about swords dance Shaymin, and liking the thought of it more and more. It can pretty easily muscle through stuff like Goodra and Altaria that would typically take stuff like Seed Flares, and Bronzong can be melted with Tera Fire, which also deals with stuff like Copperjah, opposing Shaymin, and Orthworm. IDK if anyone has seriously tried to make Swords Dance Shaymin work, but I would love to hear about it

 

[Catalisador]

Hey, y'all! Your favourite Flittle fanatic Catalisador here to give my thoughts on some underexplored Pokémon and movesets in the current NU metagame!

​

Golem stands out as an extremely versatile defensive AND (somewhat) offensive glue in the current metagame. With access to a plethora of support moves such as Stealth Rock, Volt Switch and Roar, as well as the potent combination of Magnet Pull and Iron Defense + Body Press, it is able to act as a premier defensive wall, checking and threatening metagame staples like Salazzle and Jolteon, AND counter to common defensive Steel-types such as Bronzong, Copperajah and Orthworm. Furthermore, Terastalization enhances Golem's defensive capabilities even further, potentially turning it into the superb defensive Water and Fairy types. I've been using Golem for quite a lot of success recently and completely recommend it for teams that are struggling to pick a counter to Steel-types as well as a check to common metagame staples in Salazzle, Jolteon and Scyther. Its role-compression can be an absolute godsend! I've been using a spread of 252 HP, 152+ Def, 20 SpDef and 84 Spe, which allows it to outpace up to base 55 Spe Pokémon such as Dudunsparce, unboosted Arboliva, Copperajah and Piloswine, threatening them with ID-boosted Body Presses, while avoiding the 3HKO from any of Salazzle and Jolteon's unboosted moves pre-Terastalization and Bronzong's Psychic.

​

Cryogonal is another cool pick I've been testing out recently. With a pretty unique combination of special bulk, speed and access to utility moves in Rapid Spin and Haze, it is able to check common special attackers such as CM Mesprit and Uxie, Goodra, special Shaymin and Tatsugiri, the later three especially thanks to its super-effective Freeze-Dry. It is another Pokémon that I recommend for its role compression of removing hazards and acting as a wall against potent metagame staples. I've been running a spread of 248 HP, 44 Def and 216+ Spe which allows it to avoid the 3HKO from Piloswine's Icicle Crash while maximizing its Speed to outpace base 100s like Shaymin.

​

Gligar is a pretty common metagame staple right now, but I've been using it in a completely different and interesting way: an all-out attacking moveset. Thanks to its superb defensive typing and Eviolite-boosted bulk, it is able to check or punish common metagame staples like Heracross, Bronzong, Sandaconda, etc. However, it is very prone to getting Knock Off: so enter Acrobatics, a way to gain a strong secondary STAB which compliments Earthquake and allows it to 2HKO or OHKO common metagame staples like the aforementioned Heracross, Scyther and Hariyama. Lastly, the combination of Knock Off and U-Turn gives teams momentum and superb utility, also allowing it to punish the likes of Levitate Bronzong, Qwilish-Hisui, Scyther, Piloswine on the switch-in, etc. I definitely recommend experimenting with 4 Atks or even SD Gligar right now! A very unique and potent choice right now.

​

Lastly, I wanted to give the spotlight to an extremely potent offensive Pokémon in the current metagame: Piloswine. Despite being mostly used for its defensive qualities such as checking Jolteon and co., the boar's combination of unresisted Ice- and Ground-type STABS lets it act as a self-sufficient offensive threat in the current metagame. I've been experimenting with Choice Banded variants, which only struggle against Bronzong (without Tera Blast Ghost). It is a very unexpected attacker that can pick off easy KOs with its powerful Earthquake and Icicle Crash/Icicle Spear (or Ice Shard against weakened foes). Definitely recommend experimenting with more offensive variants of Piloswine, even just max Atk Eviolite, as it fulfills very interesting offensive niche in the current metagame.

So, I wanted to know your opinions: what are some underexplored Pokémon you're using right now?

Edit: here's some teams showcasing the aforementioned sets and Pokémon! Click the sprites for the importables!

SD Shaymin + Golem-Alola

SD Loaded Dice Heracross + 4 Atks Gligar

CB Piloswine + Golem-Alola

 

[Swagodile]

Hey, y'all! Your favourite Flittle fanatic Catalisador here to give my thoughts on some underexplored Pokémon and movesets in the current NU metagame!

​

Golem stands out as an extremely versatile defensive AND (somewhat) offensive glue in the current metagame. With access to a plethora of support moves such as Stealth Rock, Volt Switch and Roar, as well as the potent combination of Magnet Pull and Iron Defense + Body Press, it is able to act as a premier defensive wall, checking and threatening metagame staples like Salazzle and Jolteon, AND counter to common defensive Steel-types such as Bronzong, Copperajah and Orthworm. Furthermore, Terastalization enhances Golem's defensive capabilities even further, potentially turning it into the superb defensive Water and Fairy types. I've been using Golem for quite a lot of success recently and completely recommend it for teams that are struggling to pick a counter to Steel-types as well as a check to common metagame staples in Salazzle, Jolteon and Scyther. Its role-compression can be an absolute godsend! I've been using a spread of 252 HP, 152+ Def, 20 SpDef and 84 Spe, which allows it to outpace up to base 55 Spe Pokémon such as Dudunsparce, unboosted Arboliva, Copperajah and Piloswine, threatening them with ID-boosted Body Presses, while avoiding the 3HKO from any of Salazzle and Jolteon's unboosted moves pre-Terastalization and Bronzong's Psychic.

​

Cryogonal is another cool pick I've been testing out recently. With a pretty unique combination of special bulk, speed and access to utility moves in Rapid Spin and Haze, it is able to check common special attackers such as CM Mesprit and Uxie, Goodra, special Shaymin and Tatsugiri, the later three especially thanks to its super-effective Freeze-Dry. It is another Pokémon that I recommend for its role compression of removing hazards and acting as a wall against potent metagame staples. I've been running a spread of 248 HP, 44 Def and 216+ Spe which allows it to avoid the 3HKO from Piloswine's Icicle Crash while maximizing its Speed to outpace base 100s like Shaymin.

​

Gligar is a pretty common metagame staple right now, but I've been using it in a completely different and interesting way: an all-out attacking moveset. Thanks to its superb defensive typing and Eviolite-boosted bulk, it is able to check or punish common metagame staples like Heracross, Bronzong, Sandaconda, etc. However, it is very prone to getting Knock Off: so enter Acrobatics, a way to gain a strong secondary STAB which compliments Earthquake and allows it to 2HKO or OHKO common metagame staples like the aforementioned Heracross, Scyther and Hariyama. Lastly, the combination of Knock Off and U-Turn gives teams momentum and superb utility, also allowing it to punish the likes of Levitate Bronzong, Qwilish-Hisui, Scyther, Piloswine on the switch-in, etc. I definitely recommend experimenting with 4 Atks or even SD Gligar right now! A very unique and potent choice right now.

​

Lastly, I wanted to give the spotlight to an extremely potent offensive Pokémon in the current metagame: Piloswine. Despite being mostly used for its defensive qualities such as checking Jolteon and co., the boar's combination of unresisted Ice- and Ground-type STABS lets it act as a self-sufficient offensive threat in the current metagame. I've been experimenting with Choice Banded variants, which only struggle against Bronzong (without Tera Blast Ghost). It is a very unexpected attacker that can pick off easy KOs with its powerful Earthquake and Icicle Crash/Icicle Spear (or Ice Shard against weakened foes). Definitely recommend experimenting with more offensive variants of Piloswine, even just max Atk Eviolite, as it fulfills very interesting offensive niche in the current metagame.

So, I wanted to know your opinions: what are some underexplored Pokémon you're using right now?

Edit: here's some teams showcasing the aforementioned sets and Pokémon! Click the sprites for the importables!

SD Shaymin + Golem-Alola

SD Loaded Dice Heracross + 4 Atks Gligar

CB Piloswine + Golem-Alola

On the Shaymin + Golem team, assuming it's not a mistake, I'd recommend Frisk or Pickpocket over Prankster; no point in Prankster if the set is all offensive moves

 

[Lucario]

​

Before Blissey and Umbreon rose Hoopa was a mid option. Despite its strength, it was really slow and physically frail. However, now that it has 2 less switch-ins, Hoopa is a really powerful breaker that breaks through most balance builds, especially with some teams opting to run the Ghost-weak Palossand or Bronzong as their Ground- or Steel-type. I've been running a lot of Hoopa on ladder recently and have had a lot of success, as well as it seeing success in one of my battles for round 3 of seasonal.

I used to be a Hoopa hater since we had so many great Psychic-types on top of Mismagius. Now I want to advocate for its use more now that it can potentially become broken thanks to its set diversity paired with insanely high offenses and few long-term switch-ins.

p.s. Use Victreebell, it's a mini Vileplume :D

 

[Perla]

With some reference to the survey, I think that Shaymin should go (I've put 5, the only mon with a vote above 3, personally): I know that there's Goodra, but if you don't use it, having your special walls or resists that get 2HKOed by Choice Specs Seed Flare is very oppressive, frequently even without the sp.def drop.

I think that the main topic is that RU has just one mon with 600 BST, while NU has 3 of those mons in a "weaker" tier compared to RU, by obvious reasons.
I know that base stats aren't everything, but I have the feeling that those mons are blessed with "default" traits by simply having high stats: even if you choose an offensive role for them, they are still randomly bulkier and faster than the average mon of the NU tier and this narrows the counterplay.

For example Shaymin is also quite bulky and kinda fast, so poison types like Croak can't even revenge kill it, because it's slower.

Goodra belongs to that category and has honestly become increasingly annoying thanks to the new support moves that it got, but I wouldn't rush it because I think it still checks important stuff in the tier (I've put 3).

I've put 2 for now.
I think that their poor physical bulk is an exploitable flaw, as you can hit them with physical priorities to revenge kill them.

Anyway I think that the tier is fun and I see a lot of different builds. Sand being somewhat viable is nice too.

 

[Lucario]

I think that the main topic is that RU has just one mon with 600 BST, while NU has 3 of those mons in a "weaker" tier compared to RU, by obvious reasons.

This is because they are weaker Pokemon with flaws and are thus NU and not RU. BST has nothing to do with this, look at Slaking and Regigigas every gen they're in. Shaymin, imo, is balanced thanks to having good Grass-type resists like Goodra, Altaria, Arboliva, Bronzong, Copperajah, and I can go on (not to mention the bulky Chansey). All of those that I listed, bar Copperajah, are overall blanket checks to Shaymin due to its poor coverage and weak Flying-type coverage in Air Slash (which, alongside Seed Flare, has poor accuracy), often time forcing Shaymin to Tera into a Fire- or Fairy-type.

I think that their poor physical bulk is an exploitable flaw, as you can hit them with physical priorities to revenge kill them.

I will be talking about Jolteon and Salazzle in this paragraph as I agree with Tastugiri/don't have an opinion on it. What physical priority are you talking about? The only reliable one I can think of is Lycanroc's Accelerock, a Pokemon that is pretty much only seen on Sand teams right now (and it isn't using Accelerock on those). Aside from that we have Ice Shard from Sneasel and Pilowswine, neither of which will do much damage thanks to Salazzle resisting it and Jolteon commonly running Tera Ice, although Piloswine is generally a short term check for both of these Pokemon. Bruxish, Floatzel, and Qwilfish all have access to Aqua Jet but hardly ever run it thanks to their already good Speed (Scarf Brux is the only set to exist rn) while Qwilfish already suffers from 4mss. Lastly, we have Sucker Punch from Grimmsnarl and Toxicroak, a move that is extremely exploitable thanks to Jolteon sometimes using Tera Fairy as well as Substitute and Salazzle being able to use Encore, Substitute, or Toxic to bait the attacker.

Overall I think Shaymin is fine to stay in the tier for now (if Goodra leaves then I wouldn't mind a suspect) while Goodra, Jolteon, and Salazzle are insane and should leave.

 

[Perla]

This is because they are weaker Pokemon with flaws and are thus NU and not RU. BST has nothing to do with this, look at Slaking and Regigigas every gen they're in.

I didn't say that 600 BST mons should morally be RU: I expressed a different point after the post you quoted.

Goodra, Altaria, Arboliva, Bronzong, Copperajah,

True, I agree with Bronzong. I'm not completely sure about Altaria and Rajah as Shaymin learns Dazzle and Earth Power. Arboliva can tank, but what can it do back? If Shaymin gets sp.def drops, the olive tree is not entirely fine anymore.

What physical priority are you talking about?

I didn't explain precisely what I meant. You should definitely check those mons defensively or offensively with faster stuff (like you said, scarfed Bruxish can hit them hard), but if something goes wrong, my point about priority is that you still have a shot as their poor phys. bulk allows you to revenge kill them with the moves you quoted. There might be mind games, I know...
I would understand if people think their too much, in any case.

 

[Shinto7654]

I didn't say that 600 BST mons should morally be RU: I expressed a different point after the post you quoted.

I mean, you called it a "main" point. IDK why you would both bring it up and call it that if it wasn't a decently large part of your argument and feelings on Shaymin lol.

True, I agree with Bronzong. I'm not completely sure about Altaria and Rajah as Shaymin learns Dazzle and Earth Power. Arboliva can tank, but what can it do back? If Shaymin gets sp.def drops, the olive tree is not entirely fine anymore.

Dazzling Gleam doesn't even break 40% on an Altaria with some investment in Special Defence unless you're running either Specs or Life Orb. The former means you've locked into a pretty easy move to switch into with a lot of Pokemon just due to the relative lack of power behind it, and if its Life Orb, then Shaymin's bulk is suddenly not very good considering it's hit by all entry hazards + Life Orb recoil. It's the same deal with Copperajah, except locking yourself into Specs Earth Power invites even more free switches for the opponent. Arboliva might not be able to do a huge amount to Shaymin (unless you want to run some cheeky Hyper Voice stuff I guess), Shaymin's still generally forced out unless it does get that spdef drop on the switch because trying to sit there and fish for spdef drops on a move thats both 85% accurate and has 8 PP is uhhh, not the smartest choice

I didn't explain precisely what I meant. You should definitely check those mons defensively or offensively with faster stuff (like you said, scarfed Bruxish can hit them hard), but if something goes wrong, my point about priority is that you still have a shot as their poor phys. bulk allows you to revenge kill them with the moves you quoted. There might be mind games, I know...
I would understand if people think their too much, in any case.

Like Lucario said, not much of the priority we have in the tier actually hits them even decently, especially when you factor in that both Salazzle and Jolteon often run boots so they're harder to wear down to priority range. The main ones really are Lycanroc (rare outside Sand teams, Accelrock doesn't even break 60% on Jolteon with a Choice Band) and Grimmsnarl + Toxicroak (Sucker Punch can be played around. Even if I think it's not as exploitable as Lucario does, it's still not super reliable). Sneasel Ice Shard, both Jolteon and Salazzle can handle it, even if Jolteon doesn't Tera Ice since Sneasel needs to be running Choice Band to even start hitting above 50% of Jolt's health, and Piloswine does even worse with its Ice Shard if thats the only option it has to hit either at that point in the game.

Anyway, from the survey, Goodra got the highest number from me. It having Knock Off honestly pushes it over the edge for me? Like, without it, Goodra would still have like, 40 different sets it could run and shit and be countered differently between them, but it couldn't also add in the further damage of removing items if it wants to be even more of a pain. Honestly though, I wouldn't be surprised if it got kicked out even without Knock Off because how it does just so many different things so damn well.

Salazzle was next highest. Even if I love using that bad bitch, she can just cause a lot of situations where you either have to guess the specific type of set she'll be running correctly (SubToxic stalling with Protect or even Encore, disruptive Encore and Knock Off, or just a setup sweeper with different variations), or just hope the opponent isn't runing the one kind of Salazzle set you can't handle well. Her lack of bulk and SR does hold Salazzle back a bit, but not enough to the point that it feels balanced really

Jolteon I had lower then Salazzle just because I felt like the answers Jolteon has and the stuff Jolteon does are more consistent and less swingy then Salazzle. It's still very, very good and something that I feel like would become a lot more stressful to handle if Goodra got banned (not saying it as a reason to keep Goodra around), but for right now, I think it's less important then the first two in terms of being dealt with for tier health.

Both Tatsugiri and Shaymin I don't think really are ban worthy or even needing a suspect test at this point. I do echo that Shaymin probably could get a suspect if Goodra leaves, but I still think it would be manageable even without our gooey dragon. Spdef drops are definitely hard to handle if they happen, but Seed Flare's 85% accuracy and 8 PP means it's not something you can just try and spam against stuff that hard checks/walls Shaymin, and it's coverage options just don't hit very hard at all even against stuff it's supposed to be hitting. Stuff like SubSeed and Swords dance can turn the matchups on their head, but I don't think niche picks and lure sets like that push Shaymin over the edge, especially when there's big cost to running either compared to a more conventional special attacking set. And Tatsugiri I just haven't really ever seen do much? Not super high on the ladder, so might just be that, but i've neevr felt overly threatend or worried by seeing a Tatsugiri on the other team and have been able to play around and handle it well every time. Definitely just a mon that doesn't feel troubling right now much at all and we should wait to really try and do anything about it

 

[Perla]

Dazzling Gleam doesn't even break 40% on an Altaria with some...

I can't argue with all this big part in the sense that the calcs are factual, but I think that the overall picture depends on one's personal play-style.
For example I would personally predict and respond to the opponent switching out from Dazzle or Earth Power: and this might create oppressive situations.

I mean, you called it a "main" point. IDK why you would both bring it up and call it that if it wasn't a decently large part of your argument and feelings on Shaymin lol.

To clarify: the "main" topic referred to the entire paragraph. In fact that RU/NU intro doesn't have any opinion in it because it just describes the current situation of those tiers: it is meant to introduce my thought in the following lines, in particular about the major difficulty of a lower tier to deal with viable high stats mon, when its average mon is weaker.
I didn't say anything about the causes that make 600 bst mons drop or about my desire of having all the high stats mons in RU or above.
If I read my post again, I can't find where I wrote anything about those topics: that was the thing that puzzled me

 

[Shinto7654]

I can't argue with all this big part in the sense that the calcs are factual, but I think that the overall picture depends on one's personal play-style.
For example I would personally predict and respond to the opponent switching out from Dazzle or Earth Power: and this might create oppressive situations.

Okay but prediction is a thing the opponent can do as well. I'm pretty sure any player with some amount of skill and knowledge has experience with predicting an opponent is gonna do something like this (in this case, switch to a Pokemon that can take advantage/handle whatever Pokemon could first take advantage of a Choice locked Shaymin on a non-STAB move), and outplay the attempted prediction. Let alone the fact that this can be made definitely harder in this specific situation for the Shaymin player because again, it's non-STAB moves just do not hit hard, so you probably have to play around multiple Pokemon on a team that could switch in. Plus, I wouldn't exactly call predicting a switch in this context as a personal play-style thing; it's more like effective risk management and educated guessing skills that every player has to develop if they wanna get better.

To clarify: the "main" topic referred to the entire paragraph. In fact that RU/NU intro doesn't have any opinion in it because it just describes the current situation of those tiers: it is meant to introduce my thought in the following lines, in particular about the major difficulty of a lower tier to deal with viable high stats mon, when its average mon is weaker.
I didn't say anything about the causes that make 600 bst mons drop or about my desire of having all the high stats mons in RU or above.
If I read my post again, I can't find where I wrote anything about those topics: that was the thing that puzzled me

You still mostly went on with how it's stats are better then an "average" NU mon, so that made it a big problem for you, and i'm sorry, but thats just pretty barebones? Like, yes, Shaymin having some bulk to it and being fairly quick at the same time narrows down counterplay, but focusing in that much when trying to argue that Shaymin should go is ignoring a lot, especially when we have a Pokemon with both the same BST as Shaymin in the tier in Goodra that a lot of people want gone more for much more reasons then BST.

Like, your first point was that specials walls and resists are 2HKOed by choice specs even without spdef drops when like, no? The large majority of special walls and more offensively orientated but still specially bulky mons used to handle Shaymin aren't getting 2HKOed by Seed Flare even after a spdef drop, let alone without. The resists getting easily 2HKOed by Specs Seed Flare seems like mostly Pokemon with average at best to outright bad special bulk who also generally don't invest in bulk EVs, and i'm not about to call a pokemon broken because it can 2HKO bulkless offensive Pokemon with a Specs STAB 120 base power move. And your specifc example of Toxicroak being too slow to revenge kill is funny considering that it can if Shaymin is Choice locked into Seed Flare or Dazzling Gleam, but also that an actual Pokemon used for revenge killing like Bruxish would have made for a better argument since it needs a good amount of prior damage to kill with Psychic Fangs. Reagrdless, I just don't think your argument's are very good and feel underabaked, especially if you're trying to say that it deserves immediate suspect testing and a ban above stuff like Goodra and Salazzle

 

[Rabia]

I think once arguments devolve into "ok but what if they predict you to predict them to predict you to..." the discussion loses focus. Yes, each side can predict in a Pokemon battle, but what's relevant is how a Pokemon's toolkit influences the danger of wrong predictions and how much it can afford to try and make plays. Don't get too lost in the sauce.

Shaymin isn't too overbearing in my view and hasn't been super dominant. It's quite solid support with Healing Wish, but other than that I haven't felt it oppressive in the slightest. It's pretty weak and overly reliant on Seed Flare drops to make progress. I think there's plenty of counterplay to it both offensive and defensive. Choice Specs sounds really threatening, but I think locking into any move is kind of bad. Goodra stonewalls your Seed Flare and is a SCARY Pokemon to give free turns to; Copperajah and Bronzong generally don't care too much about you (Earth Power hurts the former but is easily pivoted from the next turn), and Dazzling Gleam is kind of a Lol Moment. To me, Shaymin is just another great Pokemon---nothing more.