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Metagame np: Stage 8 - Dream at Tempo 119 (READ POST #119)

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Tauros is a great BP recipient in general. I used a lot of SD Pass Mawile to Tauros and Rock Polish Torterra a couple metas back, and it was gross how little so many people had for it. I believe Sweep got Sneasel reqs with that team as well. Tauros is only getting better with every metagame shift as well. Bulky Ghost-types such as Misdreavus, Golurk, and Gourgeist are pretty much non-existent, and they've only gotten even less common as time has passed because of Skuntank and Shiftry, which is silly because they're all still great. The metagame is basically circling back to BW2, and if you could figure out how to beat that meta, this one shouldn't be much different.
 
I believe that the reason Tauros got better this tier shift was Uxie leaving. It was a good check to it, as the physically defensive set only took around 40% from it. And I have been using another set for BP to Tauros.

Code:
Mawile @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: No
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
- Iron Defense
- Baton Pass

Tauros @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: No
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Rock Climb
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake 
- Fire Blast

This set takes a similar approach as the Huntail Coil set does, except this one boosts stats more at a time, the moves are seperate, and accuracy is not included.
First, you go into Mawile and set up Iron Defense and Swords Dance. Then you can Baton Pass them over to Tauros. Tauros at +2 literally OHKOs almost every good Pokemon in NU. The moves it runs are pretty standard: Rock Climb for SF boosted stab, Zen Headbutt for Fighting types, EQ for steel and rock types, and Fire Blast for physically bulky Steel types. I will add some replays of this once I go through a few battles with it.
 
Tauros is a great BP recipient in general. I used a lot of SD Pass Mawile to Tauros and Rock Polish Torterra a couple metas back, and it was gross how little so many people had for it. I believe Sweep got Sneasel reqs with that team as well. Tauros is only getting better with every metagame shift as well. Bulky Ghost-types such as Misdreavus, Golurk, and Gourgeist are pretty much non-existent, and they've only gotten even less common as time has passed because of Skuntank and Shiftry, which is silly because they're all still great. The metagame is basically circling back to BW2, and if you could figure out how to beat that meta, this one shouldn't be much different.
Yeah I agree that it's getting better with every metagame shift, and I agree that Tauros + BP hasn't changed. That said, I feel that it getting supported by Coil is probably the #1 pass that it can get, as it mends its Accuracy and Defense which are the primary downfall of its sweeping capabilities. Not arguing, just wanted to bring this shit to light XD


More disgustingness
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-257915972
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-257914785
 
I want to bring up the possibility of banning the weather rocks. I remember a discussion about weather teams being similiar to smashpass teams because both were matchup reliant and very straightforward. I agreed then and I still do. Just want to know what the general consensus is now
 
I don't think weather in general is nearly consistent enough to warrant a suspect in any form. It's not matchup reliant so much as teams are either weak to weather or not. The only reason why there are a sizable number of teams weak to it is because people choose not to prepare for it because of how rare it is. SmashPass is also impossible to prepare for really. Your team had to be able to handle pretty much every offensive Pokemon at +2/+2/+2 or have something for +2/+2/+2 Xatu as well as a phaser or have a Haze user, of which there are zero good users that don't mind using the moveslot on it. With weather, Kangaskhan + something for Kabutops pretty much covers it most of the time. Stall doesn't have much of an issue with it because it can afford to run two dedicated Water resists and a Quagsire (which covers most Kabutops and the occasional Belly Drum Poliwrath as long as they don't flinch). Mega Audino alone does a fair job handling weather barring Growth Victreebel because it can either set up Calm Minds on a weather setter or Wish + Protect stall weather.

I don't even personally think weather is usually worth running because of how inconsistent it is, let alone banworthy.
 
I don't think weather in general is nearly consistent enough to warrant a suspect in any form. It's not matchup reliant so much as teams are either weak to weather or not. The only reason why there are a sizable number of teams weak to it is because people choose not to prepare for it because of how rare it is. SmashPass is also impossible to prepare for really. Your team had to be able to handle pretty much every offensive Pokemon at +2/+2/+2 or have something for +2/+2/+2 Xatu as well as a phaser or have a Haze user, of which there are zero good users that don't mind using the moveslot on it. With weather, Kangaskhan + something for Kabutops pretty much covers it most of the time. Stall doesn't have much of an issue with it because it can afford to run two dedicated Water resists and a Quagsire (which covers most Kabutops and the occasional Belly Drum Poliwrath as long as they don't flinch). Mega Audino alone does a fair job handling weather barring Growth Victreebel because it can either set up Calm Minds on a weather setter or Wish + Protect stall weather.

I don't even personally think weather is usually worth running because of how inconsistent it is, let alone banworthy.
From my personal standpoint, i use weather quite often and I like to feel like I know the ins and outs better than the average person when it comes down to weather and its proficiency.

I agree, weather is not suspect worthy but, I feel like you undervalue its capabilities here, and don't validate what it's actually good at.
Weather doesn't like to play TSpikes + Kanga, Stall and Bulky Offense with the Correct counters, that is 100% true.
Weather loves to play against pure offense. And what does Offense have for weather, priority, fake out, uhm, that's it? And Weather is, by far, the most proficient way of beating offense teams and let's have a look what teams are being used most right now? Offense to Balance. People running around with Stall atm are at an all time low due to how wallbreak happy and offensive the meta is, which plays right into the weather users hands.
And between all the weather abusers you have, making the most of just one can tear apart a balance / stall team. Don't forget, there is a trade off in running stall vs weather in the fact that it takes much more to kill the weather setters meaning weather is up for longer, whereas with offense you are only really getting 14 turns to abuse weather, if that.

To finish this off, I'm gonna say that yea, weather isn't suspect worthy because it isn't broken or centralising enough to warrant a suspect test or even ban. But, if we look at this in the bigger picture, maybe if we ban the damp / heat rock, we will have a more fun meta, since offense isn't at such a huge disadvantage playing another playstyles.

And let's not forget, weather is getting more popular, and not the other way round, so the argument that weather isn't popular enough to warrant a ban isn't the valid reason you are hoping for.
 
I never cited its unpopularity as a reason not to ban it. It isn't that popular, but that's mostly irrelevant to how banworthy it is. I just said the reason why weather can often tear apart teams is because people choose not to prepare for it. Offense is not that good vs weather. Offense is also not that good against ___ (choose almost any A or higher ranked Pokemon).
 
Your team had to be able to handle pretty much every offensive Pokemon at +2/+2/+2 or have something for +2/+2/+2 Xatu as well as a phaser or have a Haze user, of which there are zero good users that don't mind using the moveslot on it.

What about Quagsire? I ran Haze on my Quagsire for a while and it worked pretty well. Weezing and Mantine don't sound like bad Haze users, either.
 
What about Quagsire? I ran Haze on my Quagsire for a while and it worked pretty well. Weezing and Mantine don't sound like bad Haze users, either.

I ran Haze Mantine during the Typh/Camerupt era and a few times more recently, it was really helpful against rain teams. The move you'd usually be giving up for Haze is Toxic; I didn't mind losing out on it myself, especially since Scald still spreads status. Haze can help out against a handful of things outside of weather too (CM Psychics, Combusken, SD Samurott, Gurdurr, cheeky PuP users etc.) to keep it from being too niche. Mantine may have seen better days, but it can run Haze relatively effectively and doesn't mind finding room for it.

Also, using Haze to reset Memento drops and Bellywrath at the same time and seeing the opponent get salty is a good time
 
Personally, I don't think Haze Mantine and Quagsire are that viable, as both have very specific movesets to use. Weezing sounds interesting though. Speaking of Weezing, I feel like it got better in the tier shift as well. Weezing has Will-O-Wisp, Haze, and Pain Split, all great options for a staller. Uxie leaving was big for it, as it can no longer get stalled out by that pixie thing (what even is Uxie?). Checking most physical attackers helps too while mons such as Archeops, Tauros (which I know dosen't check reliably because Zen Headbutt), and Shiftry are very common in the meta.
 
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Personally, I don't think Haze Mantine and Quagsire are that viable, as both have very specific movesets to use. Weezing sounds interesting though. Speaking of Weezing, I feel like it got better in the tier shift as well. I understand that Skuntank outclasses it in some ways, but Weezing has Will-O-Wisp, Haze, and Pain Split. Uxie leaving was big for it, as it can no longer get stalled out by Uxie. Checking most physical attackers helps too while mons such as Archeops, Tauros (which I know dosen't check reliably because Zen Headbutt), and Shiftry are very common in the meta.
Skunk doesn't outclass Weezing in anything as their roles are completely different (Psychic stop and Fighting stop, respectively). However, you are correct that Weezing has gotten better in this tier shift, as Fighting-type responses that don't get Pursuit trapped are incredibly valuable in this meta, and Weezing is usually capable of handling two-thirds of the popular Fighting + Dark + Psychic cores as well. The likes of Vileplume and Pelipper have also gained popularity for this reason.
 
if anyone still thought weather was broken, here's a cute replay where i won with a team that i built and played drunk based around double memento + double drum throttling a solid rain team. my only water resist outright loses to ludicolo and somehow i still destroy

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-259025762

That looks like one of my old rain teams ._.


On topic: I feel weather is hit and miss. Rain is a lot easier to use than sun, and an be built creatively. Sun, I find,is a lot more difficult to use and I feel limits teambuilding a bit more than Rain does. Both suffer from their fair share of weaknesses are a bit too matchup reliant to work consistently.
 
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Rain and Sun are both super matchup reliant, and in my opinion aren't ever reccomended if seeking consistent wins. This said, I do feel that while Rain is less matchup reliant than sun due to the amount of flexibility it has access to as mentioned by Firemage, it is much harder for sun to fuck up good matchups. Rain more consistently will have matchups it can work with due to it often having a filler space for supportive pokemon such as Scyther, Vivillon, Sawk, or other powerhouses who synergize well with Rain Teams. This said, the abusers themselves aren't close to as powerful as Sun's. Sun will have a lot more matchups where it outright loses, but any matchup that is actually good for it will easily be overcome by raw power.

Either way, weather isn't really that strong in NU (semi weather sweeping cores are fucking fun though) and honestly is rather inconsistent in my experience.
 
if anyone still thought weather was broken, here's a cute replay where i won with a team that i built and played drunk based around double memento + double drum throttling a solid rain team. my only water resist outright loses to ludicolo and somehow i still destroy

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-259025762

That is quite the crappy rain team though...

But yeah, I agree weather is hit or miss, but I never found it exactly difficult to deal with.

When I wondered why I never had trouble with weather when running offense, I realized it was because of Leavanny. It looks like a worse Pinsir or Leafeon at first, until you realize it is a Bug-type with Chlorophyll. That alone means it is allowed to absolutely take a dump on sun, no questions asked. Regirock is actually the biggest problem as you cannot deal enough to it (your moveslots are all spent on physical attacks and Synthesis to foil Sucker Punch) as well as Victreebel because it only takes 75% from X-Scissor, so weakening those is not a bad idea. Also make sure it doesn't get paralyzed if you can, for obvious reasons. Be also wary of Torkoal for obvious reasons, but if the Fire-type on sun is Magmortar or Pyroar, it loses if it switches into Knock Off after SR (and thanks to Chlorophyll, Leavanny outspeeds even if they are Scarfed).

It is no slouch versus Rain either as it defeats most Rain sweepers once rain wears out, though it obviously cannot switch in. Again, be aware of T-Wave users like Volbeat and Liepard, and I do not think you can OHKO Beartic either. Swanna and Pelipper can also be a handful, and so is Mantine since they all can either take a Leaf Blade (Mantine, Pelipper) or outspeed even without rain (Swanna). It requires obviously more care than against Sun but you can make sure it puts in work.
Also, on the ladder people have a tendency to switch Swanna into a Leaf Blade (tip: it takes 96% minimum).

Edit: Leavanny needs to carry a Life Orb in this role.
 
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I love how this thread has already almost descended into just "ban baton pass" posts lol

As we enter an BW-esque metagame, Skuntank+Sawk cores etc, I'd like to bring everyone's attention back to an old favourite, something that is often overlooked and right now is frankly under-prepared for in the higher ladder. This man:

images

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up
- Mach Punch

Pretty normal spread and set, as it always has been. Gurdurr benefits from the loss of Uxie, and the loss of Fletchinder as well as setting up on ALL THREE of the new drops! Barring Disjunction's extrasensory Shiftry.
228+ Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 85-102 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- 47.9% chance to 4HKO
228+ Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 58-69 (15.5 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 160-190 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 241-285 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 322-379 (91.7 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 71-86 (18.9 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 192-227 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Shiftry: 390-462 (121.4 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Shiftry: 312-368 (97.1 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 138-164 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Drain Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 94-110 (25.1 - 29.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 211-249 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 282-333 (117 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Other relevant calcs:
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 290-344 (77.5 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 194-230 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Awesome survival calcs^
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 165-195 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gets Archeops into defeatist at no boosts
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 246-291 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 132-156 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
Drain+Mach Punch wins after a bulk up.

Calcs are boring so you get the idea, basically Gurdurr gets a million set up opportunities in the current meta and after a Bulk Up is incredibly hard to take down. This is partnered by it's fantastic ability in guts meaning it doesn't care much for Toxic Spikes, and burning it only makes it stronger. Gurdurr can't even be wittled easily since it's Drain Punch becomes so strong at +1, and with a guts boost, you aren't wittling it, but rather making it's ability to recover easier. Start preparing people :]
 
250px-567Archeops.png

Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost

Hey guys, as I've been playing this meta and getting comfortable with the new drops, I've found a set that works really well. Archeops in general seems to get better every tier shift but mixed Archeops is a whole different story. HP grass does 70 to Quag making it 2 hit by Acro + HP grass so you dont even have to predict. It does 70ish to dual dance Rhydon and 3 hits sp.def Rhydon with ease. Heat Wave is also an option if your especially weak to Ferroseed/Mawile but acro 3 hits Ferro and eq can handle Mawile. If you're feeling particularly real, you can run specs Archeops to ohko Rhydon with focus blast and basically destroy the "normal" switch ins to Archeops. Only thing is, specs Archeops loses to Roselia shoutout Omfuga.


110px-531Audino-Mega.png
and
250px-328Trapinch.png




Audino @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 232 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack
- Toxic
- Rock Slide

So at first glance, this core might seem gimmicky, and to some extent it is. I've been using max hp max def Mesprit to lure in Skunk, you get up rocks then slow u turn out to avoid pursuit, and trap safely with Trapinch. The reason im max hp evio is to just live any hit from Skunk and ko. This is where Mega Dino comes in. Obviously Mega Dino cant do much when its being taunted and hit with poison jab. With Skuntank being removed from play, this mon can essentially just win. This obviously isnt always the case haha however it certainly opens up the door for Audino to sweep.
 
mesprit.gif
zorua.gif
sandslash.gif
combusken.gif
octillery.gif
fearow.gif

Code:
Mesprit @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Signal Beam
- Healing Wish
- U-turn

Zorua @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Extrasensory
- Grass Knot
- Memento

Sandslash @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

Octillery @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Substitute

Fearow @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drill Peck
- Drill Run
- Return
- Roost
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-260189809
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-260187030
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-260064259
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-260191652

Me and Oshony PokeGod 's innovation I can't believe this shit fucking works. Pretty much since passing Combusken's speed with actual boosts such as Bulk Up / SD is illegal, we said fuck it! That won't stop us. Introducing CritPass.

The goal is simple. Zorua is the optimal memento user for this team. With its ability to act as any other pokemon on the team, its memento is well hidden and unpredictable, allowing for a potential setup opportunity at any corner. It is also surprisingly strong if you are trying to get off just a little bit of damage / clean.

Combusken passing to Octillery / Fearow is insanely easy and once you get there its easily gg. Especially with theri speed and sniper, they are capable of easily sweeping as shown by the above replays.

if you cant deal with the hype innovation gtfo
 
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mesprit.gif
zorua.gif
sandslash.gif
combusken.gif
octillery.gif
fearow.gif

Code:
Mesprit @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Signal Beam
- Healing Wish
- U-turn

Zorua @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Extrasensory
- Grass Knot
- Memento

Sandslash @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

Octillery @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Substitute

Fearow @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drill Peck
- Drill Run
- Return
- Roost
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-260189809
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-260187030
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-260064259
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-260191652

Me and Oshony PokeGod 's innovation I can't believe this shit fucking works. Pretty much since passing Combusken's speed with actual boosts such as Bulk Up / SD is illegal, we said fuck it! That won't stop us. Introducing CritPass.

The goal is simple. Zorua is the optimal memento user for this team. With its ability to act as any other pokemon on the team, its memento is well hidden and unpredictable, allowing for a potential setup opportunity at any corner. It is also surprisingly strong if you are trying to get off just a little bit of damage / clean.

Combusken passing to Octillery / Fearow is insanely easy and once you get there its easily gg. Especially with theri speed and sniper, they are capable of easily sweeping as shown by the above replays.

if you cant deal with the hype innovation gtfo
Wouldn't Surf be better than Hydro Pump for this team? I mean a crit Surf still 1 to 2hko's anything a crit Hydro Pump would, so is the risk of a miss worth it?
 
Wouldn't Surf be better than Hydro Pump for this team? I mean a crit Surf still 1 to 2hko's anything a crit Hydro Pump would, so is the risk of a miss worth it?
252+ SpA Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Audino: 192-226 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO (OHKO)
252+ SpA Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Audino: 157-186 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (2HKO)

252+ SpA Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 196-232 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO)
252+ SpA Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO (2HKO)

252+ SpA Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Miltank: 225-265 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (OHKO)
252+ SpA Octillery Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Miltank: 184-217 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Chance to OHKO)

basically every immenselly bulky pokemon doesn't appreciate hydro as much as surf I can show more calcs if needed :/
 
252+ SpA Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Audino: 192-226 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO (OHKO)
252+ SpA Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Audino: 157-186 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (2HKO)

252+ SpA Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 196-232 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO)
252+ SpA Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO (2HKO)

252+ SpA Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Miltank: 225-265 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (OHKO)
252+ SpA Octillery Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Miltank: 184-217 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Chance to OHKO)

basically every immenselly bulky pokemon doesn't appreciate hydro as much as surf I can show more calcs if needed :/
Well without crits I understand, I was just thinking with crit boost in mind Surf is better. Best case vs worst case thinking I guess.
 
Well without crits I understand, I was just thinking with crit boost in mind Surf is better. Best case vs worst case thinking I guess.
no thats what Im saying multiple all those values by 2x thanks to Sniper, and it makes a huge difference. The 2HKOs become guaranteed OHKOs while the surfs all cant clutch anything.
 
That is the most ridiculous fucking team that actually works wtf. I've been trying to use Oct lately and that seems like one of the best outside of a full on TR. Actually putting Sniper to use is nice too.
 
no thats what Im saying multiple all those values by 2x thanks to Sniper, and it makes a huge difference. The 2HKOs become guaranteed OHKOs while the surfs all cant clutch anything.
Well according to the results I'm getting from the Showdown Calculator

252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Audino on a critical hit: 355-418 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr on a critical hit: 361-427 (96.5 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Miltank on a critical hit: 414-487 (105.3 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'd still think those as decent results. With SR however

252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Audino on a critical hit: 355-418 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr on a critical hit: 361-427 (96.5 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

it really doesn't make much of a difference and with anything bulkier Hydro Pump and Surf are both 2hko's

252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino on a critical hit: 315-370 (76.8 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino on a critical hit: 256-303 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though I will coincide to this

252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino on a critical hit: 315-370 (76.8 - 90.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank on a critical hit: 343-406 (87 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

But then I'd rather not risk miss and PP stalling over getting some 1hko's on these.
 
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