np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

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Bouff

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honestly i kind of shared your sentiments up until mguard + counter was legalized, that's what broke it for me. it was already really great against offense before, but counter just makes it so much better in that you can basically net a free kill against nearly every physical attacker in the tier lol. theres really not much else i can say because its that simple lol, zam is basically 80.45323746% of the reason why stuff like cloyster and dual chop haxorus are viable options because there are not a lot of other counterplay options against it without just flat out losing something.

sad that azu got banned but owell :(
 
I can see where you're coming from with it, and I kinda agree. I tend to use special mons and paralysis to just chip away at it so counter never worried me too much, but yeah that is a big issue.
 

HotFuzzBall

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wait I'm a bit confused here, Alakazam got banned but is getting re-suspected? Or do the 7/12 council votes mean that Alakazam will be on the chopping block and there will be another vote to ban/keep it?

Anyways, I do feel that Azumarill had the potential to stay for the reasons mentioned before (Banded sets are quite exploitable, reliance on Aqua Jet, Belly Drum set doesn't find too many opportunities to set up, slow, etc.) that do kinda balance out its good qualities of having a fantastic dual stab and coverage alongside surprisingly decent bulk. But oh well, I guess it can always be re-tested again some time in the far future (maybe) since it looked pretty split imo.

If Alakazam did get banned, I agree 100%. Prior to Counter, Alakazam was quite manageable with the OU drops such as Scizor and Bisharp as well as the popularity of Pursuit trappers in the meta such as Mega Aero and Krookodile still having a presence in UU during the transition to Gen 7. Counter however pushed Alakazam over the edge since it allowed it to deal with the physical attackers that were able to check Alakazam very well, which ended up removing quite a lot of counter play to it imo.
 

faded love

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I am honestly shocked that m sharp didn't get banned. One protect and it outspeeds basically every scarfer in the tier,never mind good STAB combo and strong jaw basically giving STAB to ice fang and it's infamous new toy, psychic fangs. It's extremely hard to play against,especially late game when it just racks up momentum. I thought this thing would be gone with the consensus being in support of that happening from what I have seen. And I agree with them. Ban pls
 

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To my mind, even if Alakazam is a great Pokemon I don't think it deserve the ban because you just need to break it's Sash with a special hit to don't care of Counter anymore. UU is a Bulky tier, even if Zam hits pretty hard, It's kinda difficult to save his Sash during all the match.
Since Sash Counter is a lot more spashable than LO version, it's pretty easy to handle it cuz' without LO, Alakazam can't secure some 2HKO / OHKO which mean it need to run away if he don't want is sash to be broken.
 
To my mind, even if Alakazam is a great Pokemon I don't think it deserve the ban because you just need to break it's Sash with a special hit to don't care of Counter anymore. UU is a Bulky tier, even if Zam hits pretty hard, It's kinda difficult to save his Sash during all the match.
Since Sash Counter is a lot more spashable than LO version, it's pretty easy to handle it cuz' without LO, Alakazam can't secure some 2HKO / OHKO which mean it need to run away if he don't want is sash to be broken.
The issue with this post is the Zam player won't just let there sash be broken if there is a physical threat versus there team (Bisharp,Mega-Sharpedo/Aerodactyl,Scizor etc) Unless Zam is able to kill whatever special threat you are referring to it likely will not be staying in if there is something more problematic that a counter will solve.

Edit - I'm currently torn on the suspect, while i have wanted a zam ban even prior to counter this resuspect is rather off to me when this could of been done after a different mon to see what the meta looks like without Alakazam.
 
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Rotating council for the Alakazam suspect test is Accelgor, pokemon sparrow, and Manipulative.

Also, since apparently it wasn't totally clear, nominations for council voting on current UU Pokemon will happen with each major tier shift. That's what happened with Alakazam (and Sharpedonite and Clefable). These Pokemon need a simple majority to be quickbanned. Pokemon in BL need a 2/3 supermajority of "unban" votes to be brought back to UU.
 
Hey guys,

In my post I will go over what I feel makes Alakazam stands out (in a broken way) when compared to other offensive threats. Bear in mind that I am still new to playing UU in this generation so if there are any factual errors in my post feel free to point them out.There are two primary factors here I feel that we can talk about.

1) Sash+counter creates an advantage for the player using Alakazam, regardless of how well said player performed, by virtue of its ability to check all physical attackers. This automatically forces the player fighting Alakazam, regardless of how well he/she played and positioned, to risk 50/50s which would otherwise not occur when facing a similar offensive threat. Let's use an example showing how Alakazam's innate qualities push it over the edge compared to similar attackers.


Situation A: Player 1 effectively double switches into scarf Krookodile to revenge kill player 2's Gengar, which switched in on player 1's choice-locked Keldeo. Player 1 make the smart play and is, therefore, in a situation where he/she can either kill Gengar or damage an incoming Pokemon with little risk. Player 1 risks nothing in this situation -- they were rewarded for making a smart play.

Situation B: Player 1 effectively double switches into scarf Krookodile to revenge kill player 2's sash+counter Alakazam, which player 1 effectively anticipated player 2 to bring in. Despite making the correct play, player 1 has to take into consideration the potential for Alakazam to be sash+counter. This creates risk for player 1 just by facing Alakazam, regardless of any counterplay player 1 might have used to get into a good position, as Alakazam will always force player 1 to risk a 50/50: switch out anticipating counter, or switch into an attack.
-------------

This makes counterplay to Alakazam ineffective and rewards the player using Alakazam in many situations. This is because the opponent either risks Alakazam clicking counter, or risks switching into one of its attacks. Hence, it creates automatic 50/50s which are heavily in favour of the player using Alakazam, regardless of all other factors, including the performance of the opponent. I will do some research and find some replays to give a more concrete example.


2) Life Orb Alakazam puts too much pressure on defensive teams, as has the available moveslot needed to run either coverage or support moves to beat conventional checks found on these builds. Having the utility of being able to run encore, calm mind, and taunt while not giving up much in terms of coverage is extremely significant. The only thing that can really handle LO 3 attacks on balanced teams (usually psyshock/psychic, focus blast, shadow ball)+encore/taunt/calm mind is Mandibuzz, but that is forced to roost everytime it comes in, as LO focus blast does ~35%. This type of offensive power paired with the freedom to run any feasible coverage or support move needed with little cost makes Alakazam unrealistic for more defensive teams to handle. For this reason, in addition to the previously mentioned one, it needs to be banned.
 
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Rotating council for the Alakazam suspect test is Accelgor, pokemon sparrow, and Manipulative.

Also, since apparently it wasn't totally clear, nominations for council voting on current UU Pokemon will happen with each major tier shift. That's what happened with Alakazam (and Sharpedonite and Clefable). These Pokemon need a simple majority to be quickbanned. Pokemon in BL need a 2/3 supermajority of "unban" votes to be brought back to UU.
What is the logic behind a simple majority to ban but a supermajority to unban? Genuinely unsure
 
What is the logic behind a simple majority to ban but a supermajority to unban? Genuinely unsure
If a majority think something isn't healthy in the tier, regardless of how much the majority is, the thing gets banned. However, the opposite isn't true, because if something was broken and it was objectively proven so then it will have less of a chance to return. Having more people vote on unbanning it would effectively mean that people's minds have changed or the meta has changed sufficiently to let it in, without it being left up to a one or two person vote.

Sorry this is just my probably poorly worded idea on it. Just woke up.
 

sparrow

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Had to test Alakazam a fair bit to gain a better insight into how it plays in the tier. Counter-sash Zam is very straight forward & 1-dimensional - and could be considered effective, having faced and used it myself I know that it is certainly a nuisance and great at what it does; but I don't believe it is ban worthy on its own. This version of Alakazam, whilst great versus opposing HO builds, is very manageable versus BO & Balance builds. Let's take this set and look at it on its own.

In the case of bulky offence and balance, sash Alakazam users face the problem of being 1-dimensional - this particular set is not difficult to switch into and can be used as set up for Pokemon such as Hippowdon. On the subject of Hippowdon; Psychic fails to 2hko, Hippowdon attains SR and, it can Whirlwind out Alakazam if the user is aware of Counter. As you can see, this is an all too familiar scenario for users of Sash Zam considering they forego coverage and Thunder Wave, Pokemon such as; Latias, Slowbro, Clefable, Scizor (free defog), Mew, Hippowdon, Klefki, Primarina, Swampert, etc. all become reliable stops to it - dependant on the coverage in most cases (which is not difficult to scout).

According to the Smogon Stats for February, Sash Zam is seen approx. 59% of the time. Though I do not recognise the accuracy of these statistics, given the youth of the current metagame, I would like to point out how common this version of Alakazam appears to be. [edit: I would like to point out that these stats do not reflect the usage of Counter on Alakazam, point being, it wasn't a very well known set at the time. I was just using this to show how common Focus Sash is on Alakazam].

I will not discredit Focus Sash Alakazam versus offence builds at all, it's very effective. However, I would now like to discuss the other side of the coin, LO CM Alakazam - approx. 38% usage on ladder. This version of Alakazam in conjunction with the previously explored set is what makes it such a terror to face. Although not as common, LO CM Alakazam manages to threaten all versions of play style very easily. With Life Orb equipped, and coverage in Psychic, Focus Blast & Shadow Ball, Alakazam has no current switch ins once it gets to +1. Furthermore, it doesn't require +1 to do damage to opposing teams.

Seeing as 2/5 of Alakazam are LO, I would consider this set as not insignificant, that is, most adept players are wary of this sets existence; and the level of uncertainty alongside that creates a problem. Given the fact that Alakazam has the tools to beat all play styles, as well as a completely different list of checks and counters based primarily on which set it chooses to run - I have made an assessment.

I have come to the conclusion that Alakazam is indeed too strong for the tier, Sash Counter Zam is a legitimate threat to the tier and although easy to handle for bulkier builds; they are promptly shredded by the lesser used LO CM Zam set, which threatens all play styles. Both sets in conjunction with one another create a level of uncertainty for the player, especially considering their differing checks & counters. Alakazam has, once again, been pushed over the edge.

Edit: I've only explored two of Alakazam's most relevant sets and their influence on the metagame. The fact of the matter is that Alakazam has other, lesser used options, that also allow it to disrupt the meta, those being: Encore, Thunder Wave & Substitute.
 
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Hogg

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Since I've seen a few people asking about this on Discord and PS, I just wanted to reiterate what dodmen said...

Even though we are out of Beta, we are still keeping our usual method of banning and suspecting Pokemon following each tier shift and anything new dropping into the tier: first step is a quickban (which requires a simple majority), second step is a full suspect to decide whether or not to keep the ban (which requires a 2/3 majority to unban). This is spelled out in detail in our tiering policy:

During the next stages of UU Beta, the UU council will be formed. Approximately once every week, each member of the council nominates elements of the metagame that they believe to be banworthy, and the council collectively votes on whether or not to ban each of these nominations. Nominations that receive a simple majority of "Ban" votes will be banned from the SM UU tier. This process will be repeated until UU is out of its beta stage, and by this time, everything that is potentially broken should be banned. From then on, suspects will be reintroduced to the tier individually via suspect ladders, and a suspect discussion thread will be opened to the general public. For each suspect, after an appropriate amount of time, the UU council will vote on whether or not to unban it. A 2/3 supermajority of "Unban" votes will be required to permanently reintroduce the suspect to the UU tier. A vote will also be held following each major tier shift, where council members can nominate current metagame elements for a quickban as well as new drops from OU.
(Emphasis mine.)
 
I have played Alakazam a lot since the start of this gen, and while I love this Pokemon, I believe it deserves the ban because of how stupidly strong it is. As others have said before me, while Alakazam can run different effective sets, Counter is what really pushes it over the edge of brokenness and, just by itself, made HO a much more viable playstyle. The Counter Zam set allows offensive teams, which should typically struggle against priority moves and faster revenge killers, to have a very reliable one-time answer to these, as well as every non-Ghost type physical attacker, that also happen to be a fast and powerful special attacker, all in one team slot. This gives a big advantage to these teams, since they can then afford to run fewer answers to some threats because of the role compression Alakazam brings. What also makes this set very hard to deal with is that it has few reliable offensive answers, as it can almost always get a guaranteed kill with Counter or another move against these offensive mons. You basically need to sacrifice something to bring it down to 1 HP, and then revenge kill it with something else. You'd think Alakazam is very good against offense but lacks the power to pose a threat to bulkier teams, which would balance things out? While they seem to get less usage than the Counter set, Life orb sets are still very good. LO Alakazam still threatens offensive teams, but it is also a nightmare for bulkier teams because of how easily it breaks through the things that would otherwise wall it, like Blissey, especially if it carries Calm Mind. I'm not even going to talk about more unorthodox options such as Recover, Encore or Substitute, which can all effectively be ran. Alakazam's versatility and the fact that all of its sets are viable and dangerous are, in my opinion, what make it unhealthy for the metagame and the reason Alakazam should leave definitely.
 
Never played UU too much, but the argument against sash+counter being too good couldn't also be applied to Kadabra? Both zam and kadabra have a decent sp attack stat of 369 and 339 (Both timid) respectively, and an hp stat of 251 and 221, which with counter become roughly an effective damage of 500 and 440 hp, the latter OHKOing anything with an hp base stat lower than 119 (with max hp investment).
 
Never played UU too much, but the argument against sash+counter being too good couldn't also be applied to Kadabra? Both zam and kadabra have a decent sp attack stat of 369 and 339 (Both timid) respectively, and an hp stat of 251 and 221, which with counter become roughly an effective damage of 500 and 440 hp, the latter OHKOing anything with an hp base stat lower than 119 (with max hp investment).
Alakazam is much faster than Kadabra (120>105 by a lot especially since 108/110 are main speed tiers to beat), and can do things other than sash+counter (ie: cannot afford to go LO).

From my experience against Alakazam my main qualm is (kind of like BD vs Band Azumarill) each different set gets played around differently, and until then you're sort of in this odd guessing game as to what its going to do. Sash(+counter) you usually bring in some defensive wall and chip at it to break sash, probably with something like Hippo or Clefable. However, against more offensive builds, its a guaranteed revenge kill at any point in the game thanks to MG+Sash, which is kind of a pain since breaking sash is a risky ordeal. LO variants, on the other hand, need to be handled much more offensively with pursuit or priority because it can use more defensive stuff like Hippo/Clefable as fodder/encore bait, which puts a ton of pressure to guess right. Granted it gets put into guessing games against some stuff that's pretty good right now (Scizor/Bisharp/Clefable),but they're all slower and get bopped by the right move/set/coverage. Would support ban but want to try it out more.
 

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Never played UU too much, but the argument against sash+counter being too good couldn't also be applied to Kadabra? Both zam and kadabra have a decent sp attack stat of 369 and 339 (Both timid) respectively, and an hp stat of 251 and 221, which with counter become roughly an effective damage of 500 and 440 hp, the latter OHKOing anything with an hp base stat lower than 119 (with max hp investment).
The main difference in the effectiveness of Alakazam compared to Kadabra comes in its speed. Alakazam has an amazing base 120 speed, which outspeeds most of the unboosted or unscarfed meta. However, Kadabra only has base 105 speed, which puts it below crucial mons such as Latias, Infernape, Keldeo, Raikou, Cobalion, Azelf, Gengar, and Zygarde-10%, most of which Alakazam could easily kill without using counter.

Kadabra also is significantly worse at using the Life Orb set, for the same reasons.

In addition, the special attack difference does matter somewhat, as you can see with a shadow ball vs Latias:
252 SpA Kadabra Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 132-156 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO

and the HP difference prevents Counter from KOing Max HP Bewear, which, while suboptimal,
is seen on the ladder occasionally.

EDIT: It seems I got sniped rip
 
I have played a lot of Alakazam in UU tier and i can say that both LO sets and counter sets have both screwed me over and have pulled through to net me the win. for that reason even though i love Alakazam i have to say that he should be banned. I've mostly only been able to take care of Alakazam with another focus sash setup which often fails, a focus sash dark type, or my own Alakazam special set (and if i'm using another counter set the other player would either switch out or would have a special LO set.) Alakazam will also probably have good team coverage like a fighting type, another dark type, and a fire type to take care of scizor and other steel types, or at least Pokemon with moves of that type. meaning on both a team with a great player or a team with a bad player, if they have an Alakazam they can probably get one kill knowing what stats and moves are. especially if the player sends out Alakazam late game when most threats would be taken down already.
 
As a BO / Balanced player I've only run Zam a couple of times. However, I've faced it quite often. My opinion may be biased by my playstyle, but from what I've seen it isn't really that broken imo. Counter can be seen as a toy to mindgame your opponent, as it is a free switch on whatever you want (such as a special attacker).

Furthermore, since Focus Sash is a single use, he can't really take the risk of doing something else (I admit it depends on the player, but I'm willing to bet that a large majority of us would do nothing but Counter against a Scizor or a Scarf Krook). Once you've determined whether it's Sash or LO it's pretty simple to get rid of it from my point of view. The ridiculous amout of priorities and Scarfed mons prevents LO Zam to be its main set, while other stuff less used like CM Sash really is dangerous, I can't argue with that. It might be its most dangerous one to me, but luckily it isn't as used as the other sets.

Remember that this is my opinion as a Bulky player, I've barely used it. From what I heard and read in and versus Offense, it makes a HO Teambuilding much easier by dint of Counter, but it seems to be somewhat of a double-edged sword VS these other HO as well.

I might use it more often during the suspect test, and edit this post consequently if what I'm saying is bullshit.

tl;dr : I dont think it's broken for now, maybe I'll change my mind after a few tests but it clearly has its flaws making it handable and not "meta-centralizing".
 
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Sharpedo is a frail, very fast sweeper with coverage, however anything that can live a hit from it, or from good prediction, because it does not like getting burned or paralyzed. Apart from that it is forced to run protect, giving it no support options, and besides that, it becomes almost useless if a switch is forced if mega evolved.
Besides that, Cm clef walls it, and OHKOes it without a boost.
Sharp v clef:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clef v sharp
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sharpedo-Mega: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Honestly most bulky Pokemon require 2 hits from sharp, and they dont take a huge chunk if they resist crunch as shown above, so Sharpedo, in my opinion, is balanced.
 
Sharpedo is a frail, very fast sweeper with coverage, however anything that can live a hit from it, or from good prediction, because it does not like getting burned or paralyzed. Apart from that it is forced to run protect, giving it no support options, and besides that, it becomes almost useless if a switch is forced if mega evolved.
Besides that, Cm clef walls it, and OHKOes it without a boost.
Sharp v clef:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clef v sharp
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sharpedo-Mega: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Honestly most bulky Pokemon require 2 hits from sharp, and they dont take a huge chunk if they resist crunch as shown above, so Sharpedo, in my opinion, is balanced.
Except in practice, sharpedo functions best in the late game, when walls have been broken down and damaged. That clef is more likely to be chipped down if not dead by then, as will most bulky Pokémon.

Also, destiny bond sharpedo is a thing, and can take out that clefable for something else to sweep. It might not be broken in the early to mid game, but who leads with their win con unless it wins from turn one?
 
Not sure how common it is, but I've also seen Poison Jab Sharpedo which, given a good prediction + some chip, pretty much incapacitates Clefable since it can't switch in on Crunch afterwards (or you know live another Poison Jab).

252+ Atk Sharpedo-Mega Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sharpedo-Mega Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 214-252 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not saying its the best option but when are you not clicking Crunch 90% of the time?

Edit @ below: Crunch+Psychic Fancgs+Pjab+Protect, replace waterfall (so many water-types in UU) or whatever the 4th move is
 
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Moutemoute

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Not sure if it's a good idea. Psychic Fangs are kinda nice and it's not difficult to run something to deal with Clefable (Nido's Sr for exemple, Gengar, bisharp, Cobalion etc..).
Poison Jab is a little bit situationnal to be good (can't deal with things like Keldeo).

+ If you fail your anticipation you may get rekt :(
 

ehT

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Hey everybody, I hate to derail, but I just thought I'd give a three-week-late summary of Research Weeks 3 and 4! Life's been really busy recently, but this hopefully shouldn't be an issue in the future.

Week 3
  • - Healing Wish Alomomola
    proved to be conducive to a very fun, unique playstyle, centered around playing extremely aggressively early-game with powerful wallbreakers, then healing mid- to late-game with Wish and / or Healing Wish. Kreme demonstrated this to great success by using it alongside CM Z-Move Keldeo, essentially giving him two Keldeos as well as a stupidly bulky pivot to mitigate the pressure placed on it. A niche pick, but a potent one if you have things that appreciate its support.
  • - Taunt Bisharp
    saw some decent success, but in my honest opinion, I don't think it was being used to its fullest potential. The trouble is, once the gig is up and you've revealed Taunt, you no longer have surprise factor on your side, so it requires very careful prediction versus, say, Hippowdon / Alomomola / Blissey to land your Taunt without getting punished. Not having SD, Pursuit, or even Grass Knot also means it isn't as straightforward as most Bisharp at threatening fat teams, but blocking a status move at just the right time can turn a game on its head.
  • - Double Powder Amoonguss
    is kind of similar to Taunt Bisharp in that it's a high risk, high reward sidegrade to standard HP Fire. Being bait for Bish / Sciz bait once something's been put to sleep is really shit, but being able to para something immediately after sleeping something else is a game changer in the right scenario, e.g. when the opponent attempts to regain momentum after putting something to sleep by bringing in a fast threat like Zam or Lati. If your team can play around the things that HP Fire is meant to cover then it's definitely worth considering.
  • - And lastly, Pivot Mew proved to be quite a letdown. U-turn is great and all, but there are 'mons that do it better both defensively and offensively, and more often than not you want to stay in and do traditional Knock / Will-O shenanigans until you're forced out. AoA sets don't fare much better, since you lose the defensive utility of a fat Mew as well as the setup potential of a traditional offensive Mew, while really only having the added benefit of being able to potentially catch things like Bisharp off-guard.
Week 4
  • - Cresselia
    turned out to be pretty underwhelming. It's as bulky as always, but super passive 'mons in general are extremely easy to punish in this meta with stuff like Bisharp and Sciz running around. On offence, it's outclassed as a Healing Wish / Lunar Dance user by Latias, Celebi, Alo, and even Clef due to their more helpful defensive typings, versatility, and offensive presence. As a CM user, again, Clef is just head and shoulders above Cress, due to its better Ability, typing, and ridiculous movepool. Not inherently bad, but competition + meta trends make her really hard to justify at the moment.
  • - Curse Gastrodon
    was... meh. Gastro's pretty anti-meta, but like Cress, a boosting mon that's initially so passive and weak with that typing is really easy to take advantage of, especially with things like Latias, Hydreigon, Celebi, and Clefable running around. If your team can justify Gastro over any of its Water-type competition, namely Swampert, then you're usually better off making it the standard defensive set and making something else your wincon, but Curse can be pulled off if you can manage to take the pressure off of it from those aforementioned threats.
  • - Dual Chop Haxorus
    is really only useful for breaking Zam's Sash with a DD set. The cost in power versus Outrage and the cost in accuracy versus Dragon Claw is really only worth it on HO, IMO, where Counter Zam is basically a free kill versus any given physical attacker otherwise. It's OK for really offensive teams that are short on countermeasures to Zam, but outside of that isn't really worth it vs Outrage.
 
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Sharpedo is odd. I always find it a little restrictive in team building(mandatory scarfer of over 105 speed), and its very scary to play against, but I don't find it that helpful when I play. It's a late-game cleaner, but other late game cleaners bring more to the table throughout the match. If BP were allowed I'd say ban for sure, but as-is it's hard to say.
 
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