np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

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Euphonos

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  • - Cresselia
    turned out to be pretty underwhelming. It's as bulky as always, but super passive 'mons in general are extremely easy to punish in this meta with stuff like Bisharp and Sciz running around. On offence, it's outclassed as a Healing Wish / Lunar Dance user by Latias, Celebi, Alo, and even Clef due to their more helpful defensive typings, versatility, and offensive presence. As a CM user, again, Clef is just head and shoulders above Cress, due to its better Ability, typing, and ridiculous movepool. Not inherently bad, but competition + meta trends make her really hard to justify at the moment.


Not to mention Necrozma being a rather superior option for a defensive Pokemon thanks to Prism Armor and access to Stealth Rock (and Brick Break to lure Bisharp out; otherwise, Necrozma's movepool is way too odd).

I have two very successful teams that feature Necrozma (the first one being unusable thanks to the Gyarados ban), and because of my tendency to run balance most of the time, I find Necrozma being a good Pokemon to use on such archetypes primarily due to Stealth Rock and Prism Armor. Plus, Necrozma isn't that passive unlike Cresselia; its Special Attack is nice enough to deal damage even uninvested to a point that Psychic becomes a good choice as its STAB attack.
 

Sacri'

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Since the last time I've mentioned Alakazam in this thread, I've thought about how much Counter impacted the way it was dealt with and I've also tried to use it as much as possible. When it was brought up in Amaroq's post I just thought people were overating it's impact as Offense are very popular and that's the style Alakazam threatens the most. However, after using the counter variant by myself I've found it way more reliable than I thought, thanks to the coverage options it has + counter which allowed it to beat things like Gliscor and Hippodown 1v1 it is far from a dead weight vs balanced team/bulkier offenses. Something else that I felt concerned about when I had to vote on both Sharpedo & Alakazam was that if both left offenses would obtain much from freedom building wise and considering how strong and fast paced this meta is I thought letting offense grow even stronger would end up having a lot of negative side effects. In any case, Sharpedo seems to be here to stay and my experience using Zam gave me a lot of material to think. I honestly don't have that much to bring to the discussion, Sash + Counter is extremely strong vs offensive teams whereas LO can ruin most stalls and balanced without much problem. The versatility it has right now paired with how hard it is to handle lead me to believe Alakazam should remain banned.
 

Manipulative

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Pretty much on the same boat as everyone about Alakazam after having messed around with it. I actually prefer its LO sets though as they're a lot more consistent in pressuring the opposing team. LO CM in particular makes it ridiculously threatening to more bulky teams while Zam's speed tier and power still allow it to threaten offense. Obviously the sash set is good as well and Counter is a godsend for it. I'll be voting ban.



Here is a set that has been putting in a ton of work for me recently.
Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind / Psychic
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower

Clef hits a notable 317 Special Attack stat with max Special Attack investment and a Modest nature and LO helps it be all the more threatening. While the typical defensive sets are good, this set is typically much more difficult to check. Not a lot of things appreciate switching into even unboosted Moonblasts. Obviously Steel-types can't reliably switch in, and if you're running Psychic, you get to put hard pressure on many of the usual Clef switch-ins that are otherwise reliable (Gengar, Nidoking, Tentacruel, Volcanion, etc). I tend to prefer CM over Psychic though since Moonblast becomes that much more ridiculous to take after even a single boost. CM Also puts a lot more pressure on defensive teams since after 3 or 4 boosts you can 2HKO Blissey. Usually stall's answer to Clef is their own Unaware Clef, but that isn't switching in comfortably at all.

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Personally, I think this is Clef's best set. It's more suited for offensive teams and is hardly ever dead weight. It comes at the cost of a good amount of bulk, but it's usually well worth it in my opinion. It still manages to find opportunities to switch in on weak or resisted hits, and if not, you're probably going to revenge kill at least something with it.

I still stand by my opinion and think that Clef should go. Between this set and all of its more common ones, it's just simply too difficult to be prepared well enough for it.
 

Hogg

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Sacri' hit on something I think is pretty key. Counter on Zam makes it impossibly good versus offense, of course, but it also makes Sash lot better versus bulkier teams. Sash Zam was always great against offensive teams even before it got Counter, but it was always underwhelming against anything remotely fat, and it usually wasn't hard to check with stalwarts of balance like SDef Mew/Gliscor/Hippo or Mega Aero. Counter Zam throws all that out of the window, while also making it even BETTER against offense.

I was sort of borderline on voting to ban Alakazam last round, and wanted a little more time with it. I've been using it on pretty much every team lately, and it's absurd how consistently it performs, and how difficult it is to play around with anything other than full stall (which, as others have mentioned, can always get surprised with CM LO). While I still really like this meta, and don't think Alakazam's presence keeps it from being fun, I do think it has risen beyond "really consistently good" and up into "nah, this is actually broken" territory for me.
 

Freeroamer

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Pretty much on the same boat as everyone about Alakazam after having messed around with it. I actually prefer its LO sets though as they're a lot more consistent in pressuring the opposing team. LO CM in particular makes it ridiculously threatening to more bulky teams while Zam's speed tier and power still allow it to threaten offense. Obviously the sash set is good as well and Counter is a godsend for it. I'll be voting ban.



Here is a set that has been putting in a ton of work for me recently.
Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind / Psychic
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower

Clef hits a notable 317 Special Attack stat with max Special Attack investment and a Modest nature and LO helps it be all the more threatening. While the typical defensive sets are good, this set is typically much more difficult to check. Not a lot of things appreciate switching into even unboosted Moonblasts. Obviously Steel-types can't reliably switch in, and if you're running Psychic, you get to put hard pressure on many of the usual Clef switch-ins that are otherwise reliable (Gengar, Nidoking, Tentacruel, Volcanion, etc). I tend to prefer CM over Psychic though since Moonblast becomes that much more ridiculous to take after even a single boost. CM Also puts a lot more pressure on defensive teams since after 3 or 4 boosts you can 2HKO Blissey. Usually stall's answer to Clef is their own Unaware Clef, but that isn't switching in comfortably at all.

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Personally, I think this is Clef's best set. It's more suited for offensive teams and is hardly ever dead weight. It comes at the cost of a good amount of bulk, but it's usually well worth it in my opinion. It still manages to find opportunities to switch in on weak or resisted hits, and if not, you're probably going to revenge kill at least something with it.

I still stand by my opinion and think that Clef should go. Between this set and all of its more common ones, it's just simply too difficult to be prepared well enough for it.
Love this set, the only comment I would make is that personally I run Fire Blast purely for:

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 413-489 (95.8 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

This is the Amoonguss spread on the analysis that's currently going through GP and as you can see, after any chip(switching into rocks on CM and getting Black sludge recovery, rocks in general) Amoonguss is blown away. I've never really had the PP be an issue and I can live with the accuracy. Of course if something has already been put to sleep this Clef set will bust through Amoonguss anyway but it could be annoying with regen cos it smogs then maybe goes bliss on defensive teams etc. I just prefer putting it out of its misery ASAP.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Voting for Alakazam is complete. Alakazam remains banned with only 2 "unban" votes out of the 8/12 supermajority necessary to free it.



Our next suspect will be Mewnium Z. Rotating Council will be announced soon.

The Immortal please ban Alakazam and unban Mewnium Z from the UU ladder. Thanks.
No other nominations? What about mega sharpedo or primarina?
 
No other nominations? What about mega sharpedo or primarina?
Suspect nominations happen with each tier shift. We just had a tier shift, and while Clefable and Mega Sharpedo were both suspected as well, neither got enough votes to be banned, unlike Alakazam. If Clefable and Mega Sharpedo remain problematic in people's eyes until the next shift, they may be voted on again.

As for Primarina, it's good but not broken. It's strong with good coverage and typing, but it is slow and lacks physical bulk.
 
Been doing some travel recently and had some time to kill in airports, so I wrote a few of my thoughts on some Pokemon in UU that I feel are meta-defining currently. Just want to spark some discussion, so here goes!

Clefable
: This fairy type is the best mon in the tier at the moment in my opinion, and I believe it is too much for UU. It combines great natural bulk, terrific coverage options capable of bopping it’s usual counters or supporting it’s teammates, two excellent abilities that are both viable and invalidate some ways to beat it, decent special attack stat without boosts allowing it not be terribly passive (especially not the offensive LO set), and one of if not the best typing in the game. I’ve heard people compare it to Suicune of past generations, but I think it’s more impactful than that. Suicune of past generations was exploitable for the most part if you ran a water immune Pokemon like Toxicroak or Heliolisk, or by boosting alongside it with something like Celebi or Cresselia or Slowking. Compared to Suicune, Clefable has a full immunity to take advantage of, better recovery in the form of Softboiled vs Rest/sleep talk, and better coverage options to hit usual counters. Additionally, the Magic Guard set prevents it from being worn down with hazards and status, and the Unaware set prevents you from boosting through its natural bulk. For example, Clefable lives an adamant Life orb Scizor Bullet Punch with ease (252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 244-291 (61.9 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) and can OHKO in return with Flamethrower (0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 296-352 (105.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Not all Clefable run flamethrower, but the fact that you have to be wary of coverage options and scout forces you to stack Clefable checks and that’s not easy to do in a metagame where every Pokémon on a team already has to cover multiple threats. Yes, a lot of Clefable’s checks are among the viable ones in the tier like Cobalion, Bisharp, Scizor, Gengar, Magneton, and Entei. But how many of them like eating a flamethrower or getting crippled with T-wave. The Nidos are arguably the best answer to Clefable, but they lack recovery and are Pursuitable by the likes of Mega Aero and Krookodile. Clefable just puts so much pressure on opposing teams, and it’s perhaps too splashable. Here’s a game against Rodri where after I haxxed him early game (sorry!), Clefable goes off late game and beats Amoongus, Whirlwind Hippo, Mega Aero, and Z-move Keldeo. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-540920147. And here is another on stall where playerW17 uses Clefable to wall Sacri numerous times and then CM sweep late http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-531782356.

I haven’t even talked about the Unaware set on stall which makes that playstyle overpowered imo in a ladder game setting. You could see it in ULT laddering, a bunch of the qualifiers were using stall or semi-stall to great success on the back of Clefable blanket checking a ton of threats. It eats up powerful attacks including some of the most powerful Z-moves from the likes of Decidueye, Mew and so much more. Now stall got beaten down in playoffs, yes, but there were good players preparing for it using things like SD LO Pangoro to specifically break through it. It’s not always easy to fit a dedicated stall breaker on a team for ladder play. Stall ladder players know this and take advantage of common builds. Clefable answers so many mons for stall teams and makes a ton of regular builds unable to break through. Ban Clefable.

Mega Sharpedo
: Definitely one of the biggest threats in the tier as a late game cleaner, this thing has become a nightmare for a lot of teams to face. Access to psychic coverage in the form of Psychic Fangs allows Mega Shark to get by some of its previous checks/counters from last gen and limits its counter play. That in addition to the mega speed change give it much more ease in getting into battle safely and wreaking havoc. To me though, I don’t think its ban worthy because it requires a ton of support to successfully accomplish its goal. It needs chip damage on a lot of Pokemon to KO, so hazard support or effective team support are vital. It also is reliant on Protect to get a safe speed boost and outspeed a number of Pokémon, that creates a bunch of 50/50 situations. Protect is an opportunity for the opponent to safely switch in a check for free but sometimes you can attack with your Mega Sharpedo right away to get chip damage on a check while risking your opponent staying in and attacking. Protect can also be taken advantage of by the likes of sub-CM Raikou and other substitute users. Mega Shark also suffers a bit from 4MSS as it wants all of Waterfall, Crunch, Psychic Fangs, Poison Jab, and even Ice Fang to hit all its usual switchins in addition to the essential Protect. So you have to pick what Pokémon you want to beat with Mega Sharpedo. Lots of mons live a hit and fire back and KO thanks to Mega Sharpedo’s lackluster defensive skills. It is also weak to fighting priority with is pretty common with Bisharp around. Point is, Mega Sharpedo needs support and to be played just right to get the most out it’s potential in a lot of matches, and that shows it has lots of counter-play and therefore not broken.

Bisharp
: Perhaps a controversial opinion, but I feel that Bisharp is low-key broken in this meta, really stemming from its ability Defiant. On its own, Bisharp is a slow but strong attacker with a pretty good offensive and defensive typing helping its meh defensive stats. But Bisharp has a big niche as one of the few viable Defiant users in the tier, being able to deter Defog users from clearing entry hazards as coming in on a defog gives Bisharp a +2 attack raise. Not to mention other means of acquiring that Defiant boost like simply coming in on sticky webs (Webs aren’t the most viable strategy but it is pretty well unviable now with Bisharp around) or even getting a special attack drop from a Clefable Moonblast. Not many Pokemon in the tier enjoy eating a +2 Bisharp attack. What makes it tolerable in UU right now is that it has a lot of checks and counters that beat it easily 1v1 and therefore it can be revenge killed fairly easily from the likes of Keldeo and Cobalion and dark types like Krookodile and Hydreigon. Bisharp does get coverage to catch usual switchins on the switch like Low Kick for Cobalion and other Bisharp, but it struggles to find a place for it with the value of Sucker punch, Knock off, Iron Head, and SD/Pursuit depending on item choice. Bisharp beats every defogger in the tier except for defensive foul play Mandibuzz, making it one of the premier team supporters in the tier for hazard stacking squads. Yes, Sucker Punch creates a lot of 50/50’s, but I think Bisharp still finds consistency and is one of the biggest threats in the tier. I would lean towards banning Bisharp but I think it’s close to being okay in the tier and it’s not the most broken thing right now.

Scizor
: When people ask what is good in UU right now in the UU room, Scizor is always my first answer. I think it’s probably the 2nd best mon in UU at the moment behind Clefable, combining great defensive typing with instant recovery, SD to boost its attacking presence, useful priority enhanced by Technician, and the ability to generate momentum with U-turn. I think it’s a great mon for the tier, using it’s typing to blanket check a bunch of Pokemon and keep things in order. What makes it fit well imo, is that the bulky roost set isn’t threatening offensively without out setting up, and the offensive sets like CB or Life Orb/Iron Plate with max Atk and Spe can’t perform the same defensive responsibilities and gets worn down. So it can’t do everything at once. I also think it’s an easier mon to adjust to as well as it’s 4x weakness to Fire is easy to prepare for. Do not ban as I believe it’s healthy for the tier.

Amoongus
: Another controversial topic I’m raising, note that I do not think it’s broken or deserves a suspect as I see it’s value in blanket checking a ton including the scary Keldeo, just wanted to say that Amoongus impacts the tier immensely thanks to guaranteed sleep with Spore and it can change games like the some of the UU tier’s best. Incapacitating a Pokémon on your opponent’s team is huge, turning the game into a 6-5. Those teams without a sleep absorber are always at risk as a sleeping Pokémon is useless, and in a tier where every Pokémon on a team already has to cover multiple threats, it really pressures teams. I have been a part of and seen a ton of games lost because Amoongus makes something go night-night and the sleeping Pokémon doesn’t wake up when needed and the game is over. It’s so splashable too, capable of being run on everything from full stall to bulky offense. In addition to Spore, it has a fantastic ability in regenerator which lets it come in time and again and heal back up which is great against Volt-turn Strategies. It also has access to moves like Foul Play for physical attackers and Giga Drain for Stab and healing, Clear smog to eliminate stay boosts, as well as HP Fire to lure Scizor and opposing Amoongus. That combined with its above average bulk means it’s not dead weight after it has incapacitated an opposing Pokémon with sleep. Do not ban, but note its impact on the tier is immense.

Togekiss
: Finally, everyone’s favorite/most hated UU Pokemon depending on what side of the field it’s on. It is among the, if not the most annoying mon to face in the tier at times. Nothing makes you want to smash your computer more than Togekiss haxxing you out the server as it floats there smiling haha. Honestly, I think it’s okay in this metagame thanks to it’s mediocre speed tier allowing it to be revenged relatively easily by the likes of Raikou and Mega Aero, but it’s one of the most consistent mons in the tier and I wouldn’t say no if it were to get the boot. Serene Grace + Air Slash makes flinching very common, and it can hax through would be counters with luck. There are 2 sets with those moves that are both extremely viable, first with Nasty Plot to hit harder and Heal Bell + Roost ensure Togekiss cannot be worn down or statused into the ground. This set is one of the premier stallbreakers in the tier. The other set can be more frustrating, it involves T-wave to further up the chances of your counter not being able to break through and hit Togekiss. I’ve recently also seen Z-Yawn become a bit more popular on Togekiss which gives it a boost in speed and makes the opposing Pokémon drowsy. Something to look for more in the future. Overall, I don’t think it’s ban worthy as there’s enough out there to combat Togekiss offensively, but it’s ability to break through bulky builds with hax can be infuriating and I think it deserves some discussion.
 
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Killintime

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New suspect and I haven't posted here in awhile so I thought I would leave a few thoughts on the meta so far:

With the banning of Alakazam it was definitely a smart idea to give mewnium another go with one of the pokemon that abused it being gone it could actually have a shot at staying. My opinion on the item itself is mostly mixed I want to play more games to see how it is, but originally mew in itself wasn't broken its always been what it does for a team. Which leads me into my main points in this discussion:
+

Now you have heard this a hundred times I know I know....but honestly when I get down to using Clefable it checks a decent amount of pokemon, has stupid good role compression, and can also function as an incredibly good win condition unaffected by status or hazard damage. I have to ask myself if the mons it counters are really that huge of a deal. I gave it some thought regarding what mons would fill its slots if it were to leave the tier being something like sylveon or florges both of which honestly have a hard time functioning with florges synthesis being crippled by sand and sylveon by whirlwind. With scizor on top of this can most teams really afford to throw up a wish and tect or synthesis with the possibility of sand crippling or will they just get easily pressured by the current meta. I want to think that clefable is a necessary evil in all of this even if it is stupidly good at what it does it still has decent answers and its not like it has the coverage space for everything with that severe 4mss even clefable can counter clefable if you wanted to go that far. So I want you guys to really give it some thought regarding what comes next if clef really did leave the tier, it would be nice if we had a suspect with clefable taken off so we can actually see if dark spam would get out of hand but I am not totally sure on how suspects are working with all these resuspects going on.

Besides clefable I really want to talk about sharpedo, this mon is a real pain in the ass for offences without even the need for clicking protect it still has a great speed tier and resists or is at least neutral to the most common forms of priority right now. With mewnium being available this suspect its not hard to see that people will obviously pair mew and sharpedo together to further boost sharpedos psychic fangs.
Clefable:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable in Psychic Terrain: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Primarina:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina in Psychic Terrain: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Amoongus:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss in Psychic Terrain: 476-560 (110.4 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Conkeldurr:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr in Psychic Terrain: 504-594 (122.6 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Swampert:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert in Psychic Terrain: 187-220 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Being immune to priority mach punch while also carrying the chance to 2hko scizor after rocks with psychic fangs+crunch it becomes a lot more potent then it already was. It kills most of what offence can run with simply having rocks up although I still believe a jolly nature is for the best if you aren't pairing this up with the terrain as being out sped by common scarfers at +1 can really ruin a late game sweep. Honestly with alakazam gone pedro is probably the only other mon that bothers me right now apart from togekiss for obvious reasons. Well anyways I hope you all enjoy the suspect and prepare for UUPL as it draws closer. (.overpay)
 

G-Luke

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Why are you submitting sets featuring Psychic terrain? Mewnium Z Mew isnt supposed to be a terrain setter. Thats a waste of momentum and Mew's potential. Its supposed to be a nuke / sweeper. The terrain doesnt last long enough for Mew to pivot out to Sharpie and it only sets it once.
 

TSR

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Why are you submitting sets featuring Psychic terrain? Mewnium Z Mew isnt supposed to be a terrain setter. Thats a waste of momentum and Mew's potential. Its supposed to be a nuke / sweeper. The terrain doesnt last long enough for Mew to pivot out to Sharpie and it only sets it once.
The fact that it can set Psychic Terrain without being Tapu Lele is enough to warrant this thought, imo. Sure, if you have a +2 mew with the terrain already up you're not just gonna throw your momentum away just to send Sharpedo in, but it makes Sharpedo that much harder to check for a few turns in the case of Mew going down. It has synergy that won't necessarily come into play every game, but its there and can be useful.
 

Hogg

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Surprised there are so few thoughts on Mewnium Z. I've played about 40 games with it now (though it seems like almost no one but me is using it on the ladder), and it's definitely a really great addition to Mew's arsenal... though I'm not entirely convinced that it's actually broken. Still, it has consistently put in work in just about every game I've played with it, and if it remains it's definitely going to make Mew a top tier threat.

On paper, Mewnium Z should be broken as all get out. After all, we're talking about a V-Create level nuke that also boosts the power of subsequent attacks. It gives a ton of much-needed punch to Mew's already decent NP set. Psychic Terrain's secondary ability is also definitely a boon, even if it's not as crazy important as some people make it out to be.

The downside, of course, is that while Mew has great bulk and decent Speed, it has a mediocre defensive typing for the meta and struggles against faster offensive threats. It does really nasty things to slower, fatter teams—but NP Mew was already really good against fat teams, so that's not as huge of a boost as you'd think (and with the exception of Psychic + Psyshock sets, Genesis Mew is actually strictly worse versus hard stall). It's also hampered by the fact that Dark types, especially Bisharp and Shark, are so prevalent this meta. Mew of course has all the coverage it needs to break past Bish or Shark or Hydreigon or whatever, but they're all common enough that it means Mew risks wasting its Genesis Supernova and failing to get Psychic Terrain up (especially deadly versus Bisharp, which does 85% min with Sucker Punch).

Of course, Mew was already a really great 'mon, and this makes it a lot better. If Mewnium Z stays, between the power of NP and the raw utility of its bulkier sets, I fully expect to see Mew become one of the absolute best Pokemon in the tier. It's possible that Mew as a whole will eventually prove to be too much for the tier (though based on the games I've played thus far during this suspect, I don't think I'd go that far). But based on the Mewnium Z set alone? No, I really don't think it qualifies as broken.

I plan to keep testing, and perhaps my opinions will change as people start using it more, but if I were to vote today I'd be voting unban.
 
I disagree. Pure psychic typing isnt mediocre defesively at all. Looking through all the mons who are naturally faster than mew, few of them can ohko from full. The ones I see are fast dark types (Absol/Sharpedo), gengar and certain scarfers. Not to mention the fact that it instawins against slower bulkier teams. Being immune to priority also lets you plow through after taking a hit from the oppenents fast mon without being picked off by stuff like BP scizor.
 

Hogg

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I'm sorry, but how is pure Psychic typing not mediocre defensively in this meta? The only top threats that it provides any resistance against are Latias, Cobalion and Keldeo - all of whom outspeed and have other STABs to hit Mew with (Specs Keldeo does a nasty 80-90% with Hydro Pump against offensive Mew, and LO Latias does 70-84% with Draco, so it doesn't exactly take much chip to put Mew into range of these). On the other side of the coin, it's actively weak against major threats like Scizor, Bisharp and Mega Sharpedo, and while its coverage options mean that these can't switch into Mew comfortably, they all prevent Mew from setting up. I didn't say that pure Psychic is a bad typing defensively, but it sure as hell isn't great.

And yeah, few things faster can OHKO Mew from full, but Mew also very rarely just sets up for free, and between hazards and any chip it takes in setting up, it's not particularly difficult to revenge unless you're running a slow team... which NP Mew was already really good versus even without Genesis Supernova. It's definitely a major buff, and as I said I think it makes Mew a top threat, I just think that in practice it ends up being less insane than it seems on paper.
 

Bouff

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idt ive talked about a suspect in a while so im just going to give my thoughts on mew stone i guess...haven't been able to play with it as much as i wouldve liked at the moment, but over the games ive used it, it hasnt really been anything overwhelming to me surprsingly. being able to tank knocks and get that nuke off is really nice, but from my experience there hasn't been any opportunities where it can actually set up safely, and without the +2 even pterrain psychs aren't as strong as i would like. like hogg said the psychic-type hurts it pretty bad defensively imo. i think against certain teams it is threatening as shit especially considering its boosted psychics coupled with the coverage it gets (pretty much everything it needs to), but the current state of the metagame isn't kind enough to it to make it banworthy at the moment...so i'll probably vote no ban. think i overestimated this thing's capabilities when it was introduced but owell :pirate:
 

HotFuzzBall

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is an Artist
Mewium-Z I feel has the potential to stay after using it quite a bit on the ladder. Though I rarely saw anyone else using it (I guess people thought the ladder hasn't been updated yet?)

Anyways, Mewium-Z does look a bit too much to handle on paper since you get a Psychic nuke alongside the benefit of Psychic Terrain. Mew also has an arsenal of moves to choose from as well as Nasty Plot and/or Rock Polish if it wants to go double dance (haven't tried it yet but it sounds kinda meh on paper). While Psychic Terrain is great for mons like Mega Sharpedo and Gengar, I don't think there will ever be a chance where Mew would want to directly switch into either of those mons so they could benefit from the terrain. Which means that either of those mons would only get 3 turns of terrain benefits, (2 if Sharpedo uses Protect for the Speed Boost). Also Mew doesn't really want to switch out once it gets to +2 since it can do its own sweeping.

I also agree with what else has been said about Mew so far, I just wanted to focus this post on the Psychic Terrain ^^
 
I've only just started playing this tier seriously, but I've been doing a lot of building and finding different ways to take on top level threats, and came up with this:


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Soft-Boiled

It's your basic CM Clef, but with Encore over Thunder Wave / coverage move. I mainly was using this for opposing CM Clefs since that certain team was weak to it, but it turns out Encore buys Clefable a lot of setup opportunities vs some of the fat Pokemon that can beat it or phase it out, namely Hippowdon and Gliscor (locking it into SD). This also works well vs other slower bulky setup sweepers like Reuniclus, Suicune, etc. Obviously you can add some more Speed creep for other Clefs creeping and such.
 

Kushalos

Everything is better when you're everything
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I've only just started playing this tier seriously, but I've been doing a lot of building and finding different ways to take on top level threats, and came up with this:


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Soft-Boiled

It's your basic CM Clef, but with Encore over Thunder Wave / coverage move. I mainly was using this for opposing CM Clefs since that certain team was weak to it, but it turns out Encore buys Clefable a lot of setup opportunities vs some of the fat Pokemon that can beat it or phase it out, namely Hippowdon and Gliscor (locking it into SD). This also works well vs other slower bulky setup sweepers like Reuniclus, Suicune, etc. Obviously you can add some more Speed creep for other Clefs creeping and such.
You're late bud. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/underused-teambuilding-lab.3596785/page-2#post-7264162
 
I am surprised that people feel Mewnium-Z isn't broken. It is among the strongest nukes in the tier (comparable to scarfed Darmanitan's flare blitz or life orb Hydreigon's Draco Meteor) but it doesn't deal recoil damage or drop Mew's stats in any way. Instead it provides a buff to it's stab attacks and prevents it from being revenged by priority for the next four turns. Mew is already the most unpredictable mon in the game and Mewnium-Z gives it another tool it didn't have previously, namely the ability to OHKO most of the tier without boosting. Its coverage also makes it a complete bear to play against, as it can U-Turn to damage and gain momentum on incoming dark types or OHKO with coverage moves like Dazzling Gleam or Aura Sphere on the switch.

Basically, Mewnium-Z forces you to run a dark type to check it and prevent psychic terrain from coming up, but even if you have an appropriate check like Bisharp or Sharpedo you still have to play a 50-50 on whether to switch in to void the Z-move or risk getting OHKO'd by Mew's coverage. The fact that Mew can't be touched by Sucker Punch after setting terrain and can run something like Rock Polish to boost its speed on Sharpedo's protect makes it even harder to build against. I actually think Rock Polish is one of the moves that makes Mewnium-Z so broken, as it will outspeed the entire tier (except scarf Ninjask, lol), can't be hit by priority, and guarantees it will slug out a few more psychic-terrain boosted hits.

I grant that Mew does have subpar typing for the meta and only above-average attacking stats without a boost. However, Mew's unpredictability more than makes up the difference because you're forced to scout its moveset, which affords ample opportunity for it to set up, and it has the coverage to take on literally any threat that the rest of the team can't handle. Mewnium-Z patches up one of its only weak points, the lack of instant wall-breaking potential, and turns it into a premier offensive threat along with its existing defensive capabilities. Really hoping that Mewnium-Z is banned so I don't have to deal with it beyond this suspect test.
 
Surprised there are so few thoughts on Mewnium Z. I've played about 40 games with it now (though it seems like almost no one but me is using it on the ladder), and it's definitely a really great addition to Mew's arsenal... though I'm not entirely convinced that it's actually broken. Still, it has consistently put in work in just about every game I've played with it, and if it remains it's definitely going to make Mew a top tier threat.

On paper, Mewnium Z should be broken as all get out. After all, we're talking about a V-Create level nuke that also boosts the power of subsequent attacks. It gives a ton of much-needed punch to Mew's already decent NP set. Psychic Terrain's secondary ability is also definitely a boon, even if it's not as crazy important as some people make it out to be.

The downside, of course, is that while Mew has great bulk and decent Speed, it has a mediocre defensive typing for the meta and struggles against faster offensive threats. It does really nasty things to slower, fatter teams—but NP Mew was already really good against fat teams, so that's not as huge of a boost as you'd think (and with the exception of Psychic + Psyshock sets, Genesis Mew is actually strictly worse versus hard stall). It's also hampered by the fact that Dark types, especially Bisharp and Shark, are so prevalent this meta. Mew of course has all the coverage it needs to break past Bish or Shark or Hydreigon or whatever, but they're all common enough that it means Mew risks wasting its Genesis Supernova and failing to get Psychic Terrain up (especially deadly versus Bisharp, which does 85% min with Sucker Punch).

Of course, Mew was already a really great 'mon, and this makes it a lot better. If Mewnium Z stays, between the power of NP and the raw utility of its bulkier sets, I fully expect to see Mew become one of the absolute best Pokemon in the tier. It's possible that Mew as a whole will eventually prove to be too much for the tier (though based on the games I've played thus far during this suspect, I don't think I'd go that far). But based on the Mewnium Z set alone? No, I really don't think it qualifies as broken.

I plan to keep testing, and perhaps my opinions will change as people start using it more, but if I were to vote today I'd be voting unban.
I definitely agree with what you've said about defensive typing and limited ability to setup against offensive teams. However, Genesis Mew is actually better than regular NP Mew vs hard stall because of how much it pressures Unaware Clefable, with Genesis + Terrian boosted Psychic KOing Clefable even after a Protect, and Terrain boosted Psychic itself doing 50-60%. Mew also does 94% minimum to Blissey with +2 Genesis followed by +2 Terrain Psychic, so it doesn't even need Psyshock to break through that. Mewnium Z also takes away a big part of how fatter teams that aren't hard stall deal with standard NP Mew as well, which is priority from Scizor or Bisharp, rather than fast and strong attackers. This is a big part of what differentiates it from standard NP Mew for me and part of why I'm leaning toward voting ban on Mewnium Z right now.

I also feel that Genesis Mew has more freedom with its coverage; regular NP Mew has to pick two of Flamethrower / Dazzling Gleam / Grass move alongside Psyshock, leaving it walled by certain Pokemon but Genesis Mew can just get away with the former two due to Genesis or Terrain boosted Psychic blowing away the targets of a Grass move (Hippo, Slowbro, Suicune, Quagsire). The only Pokemon that's safe against this combo is Empoleon (+2 Genesis still does 50%+, but phasing it once is enough to prevent it from doing too much after that). It's also true that using Genesis on an incoming Dark type is risky for Mew, but it's also at least equally risky on the part of the defender to switch a Mew answer directly into a potentially boosted attack (and even if it's unboosted, it's also risky as hell to throw your Dark-type into an unrevealed Mew set (Wisp?) in the hopes of stopping a Genesis).

As an offensive setup sweeper, Mew is exceptionally powerful (2HKOing Blissey with special moves after a boost, OHKOing Clefable with +2 Terrain boosted Psychic), rather difficult to revenge kill (not hit by priority, Scarf Krook does 65 average, Mega Absol does 75 average, 95% of neutral moves from faster Pokemon won't even OHKO it after rocks), and has essentially perfect coverage. It's definitely not the most broken thing we've tested, and it's not going to 6-0 most teams, but with how much I've played with and against it, I'm not quite comfortable voting to let it back into the tier.
+2 252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 387-456 (54.2 - 63.8%)
+2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%)
 

sparrow

kacaw
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Genesis Supernova (GS) Mew, at first I questioned why we even considered it suspect worthy to begin with, so I decided to play around with it. Tbh, if you run GS in the interest of solely setting up a team members sweep, you're using it wrong. Looking at Mew's match up versus different play styles, it's able to adapt quite easily (see: depth of move pool), threatening the entire tier with out losing much in return.

The set I've been running has been a simple double dance (DD) set with Nasty Plot + Rock Polish, I've also been able to run a Modest nature due to the fact that it's able to boost its Speed. Running Aura Sphere, its able to cover most Steel Type switch ins, as well as offensive threats such as Hydreigon.
Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere
- Nasty Plot
- Rock Polish
As dodmen, has eloquently stated; GS Mew does have a better match up versus Stall, and running Modest makes this easier. In fact, the only real threat to DD Mew, on stall, is Mandibuzz which is already pressured by a ton of special attackers present in the tier, see Keldeo, Primarina, Clefable (see: viable teammates for Mew) - making it quite the uncommon Pokemon in the first place. Also, Cresselia - which I haven't seen since god knows when.

Looking at offensive and bulky threats to DD Mew, we have Latias, Empoleon, Scizor, Klefki & Celebi. Simply pairing Mew with a trapper such as Scarf Krookodile, for example removes; Latias, Empoleon, & Celebi (and Klefki to a lesser extent) from this list. Of course, I am not saying that this alleviates these threats all together, but it makes it a heck of a lot easier.

Relevant Calcs versus bulky & offensive checks:
Latias:
252+ SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 110-129 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Psychic Terrain: 80-95 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- 43.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Latias cannot beat Mew after prior chip or if Mew has set up both NP & RP.

Empoleon:
+2 252+ SpA Mew Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 228-270 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Empoleon threatens to pHaze Mew out, though Mew hasn't used its z-move; also not a difficult Pokemon to wear down.

Scizor:
+2 252+ SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 330-389 (117.4 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor in Psychic Terrain: 241-284 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 283-333 (82.5 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 188-224 (55.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mew beats Scizor with +2 GS and has a decent chance with Psychic after rocks on psychic terrain.

Klefki:
+2 252+ SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 216-255 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Celebi:
+2 252+ SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 275-324 (80.6 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Double Dance Mew is great at combating against both bulkier teams and offence builds. It's not difficult to set up and due to its great bulk with versatile move set, it's a very potent sweeper and breaker in one.

Mew is difficult to stop, especially once it's at +2 speed, running Double Dance allows its user to cover a wide array of play styles without limiting themselves much more than running its other sets. Its limited checks are not difficult to weaken/KO aiding Mew's sweep later on. It's for this reason that I strongly believe we should be looking at banning Mewnium-z from UU.

I must apologise if I have accidentally omitted some checks & counters, but I have been using Mew quite a bit on ladder and have based my decision upon my own experience using it.
Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere
- Nasty Plot
- Rock Polish

Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Iron Tail

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Defog
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Energy Ball

Hawlucha @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 28 HP / 248 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Substitute
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
tl;dr - ban mewnium-z

edit: yes I have omitted Sableye, Spiritomb & Bronzong as counters. From those I've seen Bronzong the most; though I don't think they've been used enough to warrant a mention. Also adding more replays!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-554082537 <-- shredding a team midgame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-553647001 <-- 1v1 a Blissey
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-553676498 <-- assisting wallbreak for Prima
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-554431905 <-- pursuit trap + mew
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-554378042 <-- breaking mid game
 
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