Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 10: Here I Go Again

[Actuarily]

Here I go again on my own
Going down the only road I've ever known
Like a drifter, I was born to walk alone
And I've made up my mind
I ain't wasting no more time

​

It’s time for the first suspect after the Indigo Disk DLC! After the discussion on the previous metagame thread and the most recent survey, the council has elected to suspect Flutter Mane!

With this being the third suspect of Flutter Mane this generation, it's no secret that its place in SV DOU has been contentious (See the metagame thread for the first suspect here, and the second here). We have talked in great detail about how it's a powerful offensive attacker with its Choice Specs set due to its sky high Special Attack, Speed, and excellent offensive typing. However another set has really emerged as of late, the booster speed set with icy wind. This set makes Flutter Mane outspeed all of the metagame, and even a lot of it in Tailwind, and use Icy Wind for speed control next to powerful allies that have great offensive synergy with Flutter Mane like Landorus-I, Chi-Yu, or Glimmora. These Pokemon are able to break through common Flutter Mane checks like Fire & Steel types, to then allow Flutter Mane to take over with its signature strong Fairy & Ghost attacks.

There has also been new changes to the metagame after the release of the Indigo Disk DLC that have made Flutter Mane even more of a staple, specifically multiple new Dragon Pokemon & Expanding Force. It's no secret why Flutter Mane would get better with more Dragon types running around, but it also pairs perfectly with Psychic Terrain teams, able to protect itself from priority moves and remove Dark types that are immune to Expanding Force. Between its excellent offensive coverage and how well Flutter pairs with most of the top offensive threats, many feel that Flutter Mane has made offensive teams too difficult to handle, not allowing more balanced style teams to be successful.

With that being said, Flutter Mane is not infallible. With its low physical defenses and reliance on special attacking moves, physical attacking Assault Vest or just specially bulky Pokemon can give it trouble, such as Rillaboom, Entei, Kingambit, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and others. Priority moves like Sucker Punch from Chien-Pao & Kingambit, or Grassy Glide from Rillaboom, can hit Flutter Mane first and often take it out before it is able to fire off its powerful attacks. Adequate speed control - either prankster tailwind from Tornadus & Whimsicott, or bulky Trick Room from the likes of Porygon2, Diancie and others - is also able to limit Flutter from attacking first, making it much easier to beat.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Flutter Mane.

Important: For this suspect, there will be two ways to qualify. The first is the typical laddering period, where players must reach the minimum GXE. The second is by winning a live suspect tournament, to be held in the Smogon Doubles Room. You may compete in the suspect tournament on any account, and will need to post proof of you winning the suspect tournament on the voter ID thread.

There will be two live suspect tournaments:

Suspect Tournament Times
Saturday, February 3rd at 12:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)
Sunday, February 4th at 4:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)

The laddering period will last for a total of nine days.

Laddering Period
Start: Friday, February 2nd at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)
End: Sunday, February 11th at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)

All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! Doubles OU ladder on a fresh alt with the prefix DOUFL [name]. For example, I might register "DOUFL Actuarily” to ladder with. You must follow this format to qualify.

To qualify to vote, you must achieve a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may subtract 1 game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Flutter Mane will be legal during this suspect.

 

[LuBiStar20]

Kill it with fire

 

[Schister]

Three Strikes and you're out

 

[Sapphire]

Surely it'll be banned this time...

 

[GenOne]

My thoughts haven't changed much since the last time I posted about Flutter Mane; I'll likely be voting to ban it for mainly the same reasons as before.

From my perspective, Flutter Mane's place in the meta has only become further solidified with the introduction of the Indigo Disk DLC, and the Doubles OU teambuilder continues to feel overly restrictive due to how many team slot options are invalidated by Flutter Mane's:

• blistering Speed
• "perfect" Fairy/Ghost STAB coverage, and
• formidable Special Attack and Special Defense stats

With a full 252+ EV investment and Protosynthesis boost, Flutter Mane can outrun virtually all other Protosynthesis and Quark Drive users (like Walking Wake, with the exception of Iron Bundle), weather beneficiaries (like Excadrill and Kingdra, with the exception of Lilligant Hisuian and Barraskewda), and even a large number of slower Pokemon that are recieving a Tailwind boost. Alternatively, Flutter Mane still gets to be one of the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the metagame even without Booster Energy.

Flutter Mane's Fairy/Ghost typing is literally "perfect" STAB coverage with zero resists and five super-effective matchups into Dark-, Dragon-, Fighting-, Ghost-, and Psychic-types. Very few Pokemon are able to achieve STAB coverage this perfect; Marshadow's Fighting/Ghost typing is the last example that comes to mind for me in past gens.

And finally, Flutter Mane's base 135 Special Attack makes it one of the naturally strongest special attackers in the format while its base 135 Special Defense makes it able to comfortably take a Special Attack or two even with no HP investment. In fact, it is common practice to divest a bit of Flutter mane's Special Attack into more bulk since it can still hit plenty hard without full investment.

In summary, it is no surprise that Flutter Mane continues to be one of the most-used Pokemon in the format given how many advantages it has going for it, and I believe that its presence is preventing the current metagame from developing into something more diverse and balanced.

 

[Yoda2798]

Congratulations to myself for successfully rigging winning the first suspect tour!
Finals replay, semis 1 replay, semis 2 replay

Bracket (27 participants)

 

[LovelyLuna]

Got reqs, and it's very straightforward

Flutter Mane is borderline broken from teambuilding strain alone, and is constantly a top threat barely kept in check by priority. Now what if you added another broken Pokemon that synergises with Flutter Mane offensively, that conveniently brought Psychic Terrain with it. Two breeze past pretty much everything and can run their own form of speed control to guarantee you won't be outspeeding them. Indeedee switch was one of the moves I clicked most because, I didn't need to worry about Flutter Mane, it's going to do what it does best and Indeedee guarantees it, not to mention how any form of support can cover Flutter Mane's supposed weaknesses exceptionally well. Haven't even looked over how I click the funny Tera button and 2HKO resists.

In short, it's too much, you're going to get outsped, you're going to take a bunch of damage, not going to be able to do anything about it. Banning Flutter Mane is the correct step forward.

 

[Yoda2798]

Congratulations to Actuarily for successfully rigging winning the second suspect tour!
Finals replay, semis 1 replay, semis 2 replay

Bracket (17 participants)

That's both suspect tours now done, so if you still want to be able to vote in the suspect test, you must ladder for eligibility according to the requirements in the OP!

 

[bagel]

As a proud member of the Flutter Mane fan club, I will be voting ban, as I have every other time in Flutter Mane suspect tests. Flutter Mane's raw power combined with its endless versatility make it extremely difficult to account for in the builder while also having the potential to bypass its check either by purely powering through them with sheer damage or with set/team choices.

Choice Specs Flutter Mane requires opponents have a fairy resist in order to switch into it. Pokemon such as Incineroar and Rillaboom that are normally considered bulky pivots able to take neutral hits can only switch into Flutter Mane 1-2 times considering hazards/chip from Flutter's partner.

Speaking of partners, Flutter Mane has so many great partners that it enables and can take advantage of. "True" Flutter Mane checks can be difficult to fit and are easy to identify in the builder. Amoonguss is passive and susceptible to Ogerpon-W and Chi-Yu, 2 Pokemon that have mutually beneficial relationships with Flutter Mane. Heatran is Tera-hungry as its threatend by lots of common Pokemon, and Volcanion needs to run Assult Vest to realistically attempt to trade with Flutter Mane. Additionally, Flutter Mane can just make use of Damage-boost from support like Sunny Day form Tornadus/Whimsicott, Beads of Ruin from Chi-Yu, or Helping Hand and suddenly you are OHKOing and 2HKOing resists.

Speed Booster allows Flutter Mane to fulfill a more support-role while still firing off strong attacks off of its massive SpA stat. Icy Wind and Taunt are common options that can enable strong breaking partners like Chi-Yu or Landorus. Flutter can outspeed the entire metagame and threaten either big damage or speed control with Icy Wind, while taunt can stop Trick Room or neuter support Pokemon such as Amoonguss.

For such a massive offensive threat, Flutter Mane can provide immense defensive value to teams. It's bulk on the special side is remarkable, allowing it to trade positively with basically any special attacker in the tier. It's Ghost type offers crucial immunities to Normal and Fighting, 2 extremely relevant types in the metagame. With such low HP and physical bulk, Flutter Mane seems weak to priority, but it can afford to EV to live certain hits and retaliate back due to its massive Special Attack and Speed. Additionally, partners such as Indeedee-F and Farigiraf that block priority can keep Flutter safe easily.

I think a tier with Flutter Mane in it will always gravitate towards Hyper-offense as players try to figure out the best ways to exploit Flutter Mane's absurd power. Hyper-offense on its own isn't problematic, I love to play hyper-offense myself. However it is a problem when Hyper-offense becomes so viable that it pushes out other playstyles because everything else gets rolled over by pure speed and power.

 

[Kenpwnchi]

All I gotta say is: about goddamn time. But DOU has a poor track record with FM, so I'm not confident it will get banned (if it didn't twice already).

 

[LuBiStar20]

I am obviously voting to Ban Flutter Mane. It has outstanding speed, able to outrun absolutely everything in the tier with Speed Booster, apart from Bundle Booster or Tailwind. Even if the opposing team has Tailwind support, they are required to run Pokemon above 304 Speed. If they don't, booster Flutter STILL outspeeds them. When has it ever been okay for a Pokemon to outrun Base 100s in Tailwind? (Barring if they're not max speed + Boosting nature).

It also has enough Special Attack to run almost Zero, using the free 256 EVs to invest in HP, Defense, and Special Defense to stay on the field way longer than it is supposed to be. It can even have Incineroar or Landorus-T as its partner. Landorus setting up Stealth Rock to let it run even LESS Special Attack because it can calc for things taking Rocks damage. Incineroar can provide Fake Out support for threats to Flutter or to stop Tailwind, and then also check steel types that resist Moonblast. Intimidate also makes its survivability much better, strengthening its physical bulk..

Flutter surviving Scizor Bullet punch after 1 intimidate:

Hide

-1 252 Atk Metal Coat Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 112 HP / 88 Def Flutter Mane: 222-264 (79.5 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Flutter 2HKOing AV Archie with Specs:

Hide

100 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 204-240 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It is plaguing every tier it's legal in. It got instantly banned from OU, and has Consistently been #1 in usage for VGC. I hope that it STAYS banned this time and never comes back. Although, there will have to be new ways to counter Deo-A Psyspam since there's no FLutter to outspeed and Icy Wind anymore. Dark, Ghost, & Dragon types will be coming up from DUU and used a lot more now that the single reason they're not used is out of the question. You will no longer have to calc for Specs Moonblast in sun, and there's much more freedom to teambuild. This will be a net-positive in the tier, and I really hope it stays gone.

While I am a relatively new player, only being in the format for a little over a year (Joined late November/early December 2022?), I'm glad to participate in my first ever suspect, and I hope this won't be my last. I've had a blast playing DOU, DUU, and the like, and it's all due to the community.

Ban Flutter, :3

 

[qsns]

Flutter Mane is pretty much the textbook definition of a broken Pokemon, and at this point we should really be getting rid of it.

This is our third suspect test and I don't really want to go over Flutter stats, and rather its place in the metagame. As DLC2 has developed, we have even less that can viably switch in to Specs Flutter Mane. Within the top 2 tiers of the current VR, there is one Fairy-type resist in Glimmora, which is not really the bulkiest mon and takes 80% from Shadow Ball anyway. You can argue "just pack more Flutter resists," but that doesn't work out in practice because of how weak the Flutter Mane resists are into literally everything else - Amoong struggles into the other, better Grasses on every team, Volcanion is okay? but its weak SpDef leaves it open to Flutter anyway, Heatran sucks into about everything, and Gholdengo doesn't work well into the very fast-paced teams everyone's using. Entei is cool and Pao teams have a favorable matchup into Flutter while pretty much instalosing to Diancie, Archaludon and Psyspam.

Most teams are then left with 2 options: position the game so you have Tailwind up and the opponent doesn't, or keep the non-resists that can take Moonblast at 100% like Ogerpon-W, AV Arch, and AV Rillaboom at full health for the entire game. Sometimes you can get *crazy* and use a TR Pokemon like Diancie or Farigiraf that dies to Flutter if TR isn't up, or use the (also should be suspected) Psyspam strategy to out-HO it. This leads to extremely linear games where 1. Flutter just Teras on Turn 1 and rips apart the opponent because they decided to conserve their bulky Pokemon or 2. Flutter gets favorable speed control later into the game, the bulky Pokemon come in and take some chip, and then Flutter rips apart the opponent.

This is not accounting for the myriad of damage boosts that Flutter Mane can receive (Helping Hand, Sunny Day, Beads of Ruin, etc.). The metagame is becoming even more warped around Flutter than it has previously been. It is a silly Pokemon that should go.

 

[eragon]

On Deo-A:

Pretty dumb mon that it's honestly unfortunate we didn't come to a consensus on early. This thing for me is up there with Terapagos/Kyub (the quickbanned stuff) as a mon that really isn't intended for normal competitive play. Eforce hits really absurd calcs against pretty much all the top mons and superpower hits practically everything eforce doesn't. Incin's basically the only relevant dark that can actually live a superpower-- basically every other bulky dark is pushed out of the metagame by Flutter. Terrain control is also relatively scarce-- Rillaboom is obviously helpful into psyspam but I would argue it's an all time low between the SV-neutered glide, the return of Incin, and the extremely fast paced nature of the metagame (torn stuff). All of these factors combine to make it extremely easy to throw off fast expanding forces off of 180 base special attack: a dumb move on a dumb mon. On top of this, it's pretty easy to stack helping hand from Indeedee for some truly stupid damage:

Some calcs

252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Helping Hand Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Flutter Mane in Psychic Terrain: 282-333 (96.9 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Helping Hand Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring in Psychic Terrain: 379-447 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus in Psychic Terrain: 294-346 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
-1 4 Atk Deoxys-Attack Helping Hand Superpower vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Incineroar: 284-336 (72 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OR
252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Helping Hand Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Incineroar: 420-496 (106.5 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (had this one a few times)
252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus in Psychic Terrain: 292-345 (91.5 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

This really just makes psyspam just far too strong for such a high variance and matchup-fish archetype, really not even something that should have to be argued-- it's just dumb and should have probably been quickbanned but unfortunately a lot of the playerbase (including myself) didn't respect this enough early on. Please Ban.

On Flutter:
Although Deoxys is clearly broken and needs to go immediately after this suspect test IMO, I will be making the case that Flutter Mane is a more systemic issue with the tier that we would be remiss to not ban in this suspect test. Flutter is a different kind of broken from the Basculegions, Annihilapes, and Deoxys Attacks of the world. This mon does obey the rules of the game, it just so happens to play the game far more effectively than any other mon in the tier. With the recent VR slate, Ogerpon-Wellspring has risen to tier 1 as well, but Waterpon (although closer than anything else) isn't even really in the same conversation. In the first week of DPL, Flutter received more than 80% usage; across all of Circuit playoffs Flutter compiled more than half again as much usage as the next closest mon and finished at nearly 70% usage. We can go back as far as we want, but ever since home released and this thing was let back into the tier it's been the number one mon by frankly an absurdly high margin. This kind of stand-alone dominance, while I won't say it's unprecedented (too many edge cases), it's certainly historic-- pretty much every other stable doubles format hovers around 3-4 tier 1 mons. In SV, we've basically seen 1 or 2 mons in tier 1 for like the entire time it's been a real tier (I'm excluding the unplayable garbage of pre-home sv here). And if we're being honest, Flutter was always the superior tier 1 even when it wasn't alone there (Lando-T was really good, but it wasn't Flutter). This high usage and centralization is really just kinda dumb for an offensive mon and that by itself makes it banworthy to me.

The Teambuilder:
Of course, there will be the inevitable arguments that usage by itself doesn't indicate whether a mon is broken. " But GSC Snorlax!! But SS Rilla! But SM Incin!! But XY Volcanion!! But BW Thund!!! Flutter's a glue mon!!!!!!! " For all the skeptics, great news! There's more that makes Flutter broken. To get a better understand of this, we need to take a look at the teambuilding experience. This is one of the easiest ways to get an idea of the impact of Flutter's centralization. Accounting for Flutter Mane is basically the number one task of the teambuilder. Flutter Mane's dominance basically pushes some tera types to realm of meme material-- Dark/Dragon in particular are far worse off as options primarily as a response to Flutter, both decent defensive options that would be very helpful to have around in this metagame, particularly for mons with a psyspam problem or for dealing with the elemental types. In contrast, tera types that handle Flutter (particularly the fairy stab) are pushed higher in usage (see fire/poison in particular). Although a less tangible point, I would argue that this imbalancing of teras caused by Flutter makes the metagame a lot more unstable and contributes to some of the frustrating matchup elements in the tier currently (primarily between psyspam, pao teams, diancie, and other flutter offense teams). Flutter centralizes and strains teambuilding to deal with offensive teams having such a ubiquitous and powerful tool at their disposal. This has been one of my biggest issues with Flutter for a while, and these days it's even more pronounced with the other stuff present in the metagame. It's very difficult to account passably for stuff like psyspam, pao teams, and the ever annoying TR stuff when Flutter having the chance to sweep your team lurks in the back of your mind. It's easy to argue that Flutter's apparent limitations in game prevent it from being broken, but even taking this at face value, its centralization and popularity are so difficult to deal with in the builder that it makes itself banworthy there alone.

On the Metagame:
A perhaps more visible indicator of how Flutter Mane negatively impacts the tier can really just be seen with the way the tier has generally evolved over the last several months and become so centered around hyper-offensive styles. Others in this thread have already noted this (see qsns' and bagel's excellent posts above) so I saved it for last, but really the direction the tier has gone since mid summer just shows the sustained impact the mon has had on the tier. June and July were basically the months of bulky stuff, but over time we realized that the most effective strategies were really just attacking and blowing stuff up with Flutter/other assorted offensive mons. With the arrival of the first DLC we further started to see this develop, as the strategies popular in September/October centered around setting up with mons like Kommo-o just got totally pushed out of the metagame by offensive teams with flutter/scarf lando-t/wellspring/torn/fire type. This team style really was basically optimal IMO. I think a big factor here was the rise of Wellspring, such a powerful enable that fits on so many teams and whose follow me support Flutter really appreciates. By the end of the DLC, the majority of teams were generally following the trend towards more offensive structures, primarily enabled by Flutter, who now started abusing the booster energy set to further enable offense.

With the arrival of the second DLC, this trend just continued, now aided by incin further enabling flutter and lando i rising to pair with flutter too. We've now arrived at a metagame state that is dominated by these offensive styles to an extent it's really just impossible to ignore. It's easy to see the rise of psyspam the last few weeks as the enabler and architect of this metagame state, as I've seen argued a few times on discord. It could very well be argued that Deoxys is the straw that broke the camel's back in this regard. However, the longer-term view really shows how Flutter has been driving this trend for a very long time, for more than half of the tier's lifespan. Banning Deo is definitely something we should do, but really the core issue is Flutter Mane, was Flutter Mane, and will be Flutter Mane until we address it. With this mon in the tier, offense is far too heavily rewarded. We might not be witnessing the format-eviscerating power of pre-home Flutter + Chi-Yu, where we had basically no fairy resists and everything died to dgleam, but fundamentally Flutter is still doing the same thing it did then-- pushing offense above everything else and really driving the uncompetitiveness of the format. Thankfully, we can do something about it. Vote Ban on Flutter Mane.

​

 

[tyo]

people of the world, do not let the americans gaslight you into voting ban on flutter mane. the world will win once again and keep flutter freed

 

[Nephtyrix]

Just ban Deoxys-A and free Flutter !
On which Pokemon Chien-Pao and Kingambit will use Sucker Punch now ? :'(
Where will be Flash Canon from Archaludon ? :'(
Where will be Sludge Bomb from Lando-I with his Tera Poison ? :'(

To have fun in DOU, let free Flutter ! (and ban Deoxys-A)

ps: Just a proof that Flutter is not a problem

45% winrate is not a problem for me.

This is a real problem.

 

[Level 51]

ps: Just a proof that Flutter is not a problem
View attachment 601988
45% winrate is not a problem for me.

genuinely don't know if this is just bait, but just in case you forgot how mirrors work: when both teams use flutter mane, one is guaranteed to lose. a pokemon with 100% usage rate would have a 50% winrate.

 

[LuBiStar20]

ps: Just a proof that Flutter is not a problem
View attachment 601988
45% winrate is not a problem for me.

View attachment 601989
This is a real problem.

The only reason Flutter Mane is at a 45% win-rate is because if almost everybody is using it, it's going to have around 50% win/loss rate since they're matching into each other. Half of 83.33 is ~42, so it's not even that when flutter isn't used it loses. Also, a single Pokémon should not be used 83% of the time, that just shows how unhealthy it is in the metagame. If you don't use it, you better have a laundry list of reasons why it's not on your team. The only teams I Don't see it on is Hard Trick Room. I agree that Deo-A is also a problem, But Flutter is the star of the show here.

On which Pokemon Chien-Pao and Kingambit will use Sucker Punch now ? :'(
Where will be Flash Canon from Archaludon ? :'(
Where will be Sludge Bomb from Lando-I with his Tera Poison ? :'(

90% sure this is bait but I want to write this anyway
1- A weakened Pokemon that gets KO'd & outspeeds Gambit/Chien Pao sucker punching GG Rilla. Also good for trick room!
2- Genuinely haven't seen a flash cannon set on Archaludon ever, but it's useful for Glimmora or Hatterene (Even though mfire exists) or something. Don't use flash cannon, Body Press Dragon Pulse Electro Shot Snarl is a better set IMO
3- Flutter Mane is Neutral To sludge bomb due to its Ghost typing. Also, Ogerpon-Wellspring is TIER 1. There is a strong competition for grass types this format, there is tons of opportunities to sludge bomb when Sandsear/Earth Power is resisted.

 

[Nephtyrix]

Oh no you all discovered that it's a bait :(
Btw I add this an hour after because someone told me that and I laugh so hard that I wanted to share to you too :D
I responded to him the same way than you xD
I'll not post the private message, the user can be mad and wouldn't talk to me ever again :'(
Btw the response are constructive and that's cool

 

[Schister]

Flutter Mane and (DO)You
​

This pokemon needs to go. Full stop. Flutter Mane has been the single largest force shaping DOU for the better part of a year now and, as eragon, qsns and Bagel have all stated in their posts above, it's been shaping the tier to be more and more offensive. As the list of reliable switch-ins to flutter mane shrinks with each passing meta development the most reliable way to stop flutter mane has consistently emerged to be out-offensing it, or simply using pokemon that have the raw bulk to eat its hits (of which there are few). I do not wish to reprise the words of so many others in this thread before me, it would be somewhat pointless to do so. Despite my and many others' beliefs that Flutter Mane warps the meta in an unhealthy way, and is just simply broken in its own right, I know that there are those who will argue that they enjoy the direction the tier is heading in, that they don't mind flutter mane's power level relative to everything else, or that such extreme centralization is even a good thing. I could not disagree more, and I hope that i can demonstrate why in this post.

To be blunt, I believe it's impossible to deny that Flutter Mane pushes the tier in a more offensive direction at this point. There are simply not enough defensive tools to counteract the partners that best go with Flutter Mane in the tier. We saw this when KLIFO absolutely DOMNIATED the first couple of weeks of DLC2, a structure that was simply built around giving Flutter Mane and Landorus the best teammates possible to support them. We've already seen this team decline rapidly in popularity and not because of an uptick in strong balance teams or bulky offense cores that handle its members well, but because teams with even more aggressive and immediately threatening cores rose to take its place. Volatile structures such as Chien Pao offense, Archaludon rain and of course Deoxys Psyspam all make Klifo look like an old outdated Balance team and the team's not even a month old. The metagame is developing rapidly into a space with frailer attackers and less stable pokemon capable of acting as good generalist checks because the mons that could fill such a roll simply can't deal with the threats in the tier right now. Just a few months ago following Flutter mane's unbanning Chien-pao, Psyspam and trick room teams were considered fringe because the tier was stable enough for most teams to reliably have answers to them. Nowadays these more matchup-fishy archetypes are much more common because of their ability to steal the momentum of a game in an instant once they blow past few viable checks still at the top of the tier on opposing teams. These types of teams, while fun to play, create immense strain on structuring the builder and produce short games that can end off of one single bad prediction or even instance of a move missing/haxing with little room to recover for any team caught on the receiving end. You can argue that this makes the tier require more skill to pay otherwise or makes it more interesting to watch/play, but I don't see things that way at all.

In my opinion, the best matches in SV DOU have always been games that last around 12-15 turns and pit two balance/bulky offense or even trick room structures against each other and revolve around each player leveraging their own unique tools to win the match while trying to deny the tools and win conditions of their opponent. That's a long and wordy explanation so why don't I just show what I mean:

"Best Tournament Match" Games

Fey Vs Xqiht
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9predlcdoublesou-718334
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9predlcdoublesou-718332

Nails vs JRL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-733700
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-726704

Nido-Rus vs SMB
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2003944571
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2003937085
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2003928223
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2003899133
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2003892392
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2003886751

SMB vs Bagel
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-703306
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-703302

Keen eyes may notice that this is just the list of the "best tournament games" from the DOU awards last year. Which would mean that a large portion of the community would agree that these types of games, slower than those we've been seeing most commonly in tournaments for the past few months, are the ones that we should encourage. Flutter Mane speeds up the metagame and prevents us from seeing this more balanced and positional gameplay from appearing as of late, therefore it should have no place in the tier if you're like me and believe this is more interesting gameplay than the 6-turn blowouts that have become more and more frequent as of late. I would at least like to see this side of SV get a fair shot to be played without Flutter Mane in the background, but maybe that's just me.

 

[SpumClunge]

I don't think I am gonna make reqs(I had like 79 GXE at 20 games but It just keeps going down now...). But please ban this mistake of a pokemon.

Not only does it's Ghost/Fairy typing give it superb offensive coverage. It also only has 2 weaknesses, to Ghost and Steel. Steel isn't a great offensive type. Combine that with the nature of Ghost type, Flutter Manes insane speed and great coverage. And most other pokemon that could serve as checks to Flutter Mane end up being outsped and taking huge damage from Fluttermane before they can KO it. Which means the best answer to Flutter Mane ends up being itself a lot of the time. Which is real bad for the meta.

Just looking at it's base stats you can see that it's broken. Most pokemon only use one type of attack, special or physical. Making the points in the attacking stat they don't use effectively wasted. Flutter Mane only has 55 attack. Meaning it uses 515 of its 570 total stats. Compare that to Archaludon or Landorus-I, both of whom nominally have higher BST than Flutter. But both effectively lose more than 100 of their base stats. Leaving Flutter Mane with a higher effective stat total.

Flutter Mane's sheer speed and power are unmatched by anything in the tier.

 

[Actuarily]

Wanted to quickly give my thoughts. I'm on the fence, but I'm leaning ban on Flutter Mane. In the pre-DLC2 metagame, I didn't think it was banworthy, just a very strong T1 pokemon, but since the release of DLC2 there's been some metagame shifts that I think push it over the edge. The biggest shift after the Indigo Disk has been the rise of psyspam, which obviously has empowered Flutter Mane. Not only is Indeedee-F a great redirector next to Flutter, but also in order to combat psyspam dark types have become a much bigger part of the teambuilding process, which has only made Flutter stronger. Ideally players would be able to use steel types to be able to handle both psyspam & Flutter Mane, but all the steels that are DOU by usage have a secondary type that makes them not as good against Flutter Mane as we'd like them to be:

Now, this isn't to say people can't use other steels, (for instance Heatran is probably being underused), but still goes to show how the current metagame is very ill-suited to deal with Flutter Mane. Many of the other answers to Flutter Mane like priority attackers are not as popular, and can be mitigated through psychic terrain & redirection by the likes of Ogerpon-Wellspring. Right now the most surefire way to deal with Flutter Mane is either specially bulky physical attackers or through speed control, and while this can be effective, often times these teams still get overrun by Flutter and it's common allies.

 

[Yoda2798]

You can see my thoughts on Flutter Mane from the last suspect test here, where I voted no ban. Since then things have changed with the most recent metagame though, as notably reflected by Flutter Mane's high usage even by its standards.


Incineroar is one of the biggest new additions, which benefits Flutter Mane in a few ways. Firstly, Incineroar is a great partner, as it can both Intimidate and Fake Out the Pokemon which threaten a KO on Flutter Mane, allowing it to survive longer than before and that extra turn can go a long way. On the other side though, Incineroar is also a Fire-type which doesn't resist Fairy, when that's typically where one comes from (see Actuarily's post regarding Steel-types against Flutter Mane). However, it's also both of those things and does not threaten a KO on Flutter Mane with standard spreads, where other pivots like Rillaboom and Iron Hands can, or sometimes also other Fire-types as well like Volcanion, Ogerpon-Wellspring, or Entei. This means Incineroar's presence on either end works in Flutter Mane's presence relative to the other Pokemon it's taking the place of.


As others have mentioned in more detail, the empowering of psyspam with Deoxys-Attack has also benefitted Flutter Mane, as it pairs nicely to deal with Dark-types and benefit from Psychic Terrain blocking priority, while it can also function as a check against psyspam due to its special bulk and ability to outspeed Deoxys with Protosynthesis using Booster Energy or Sun. Either way, this again makes Flutter Mane better than before.


The rise of Ogerpon-Wellspring, while not being entirely new to the metagame, has also significantly shaken up the meta. On top of pushing out Amoonguss, one of the Pokemon most annoying for Flutter Mane to face, 'Waterpon' also pairs excellently as a partner. Due to how strong it is as both an attacker and redirector, Waterpon works extremely well with Flutter Mane, being able to redirect any pesky priority or strong physical attacks, while keeping offensive pressure against everything else. Before, other redirectors were typically too passive to work that well alongside Flutter Mane, while priority (particularly Sucker Punch) could often neutralise Flutter Mane with more offensive partners, but now that's not so much the case. One thing important to mention though is that Ogerpon's unique tera giving it a Sp Def boost does help it function as a check against Flutter Mane if needed.


Those are the most notable meta changes, but those three are also part of a wider meta shift towards more offensive teams with the likes of the rise of Landorus-I or Glimmora getting access to Meteor Beam, and less of bulkier Pokemon like Iron Hands or Landorus-Therian, or especially the likes of teams built around Cresselia, than before. To look at things another way, I feel like in the past Flutter Mane edged a bit ahead of the other top Pokemon like Iron Hands, Landorus-T, and Rillaboom, where now Ogerpon-Wellspring sits alone at that level now, and Flutter Mane has jumped up a level above to where it's no longer just the best, but a step too far above everything else, so for that reason I now lean on the side of ban.

 

[zCriTiCaL]

Hahaha. This has to be an absolute joke. Instead of literally raining fire on that monstrosity called Raging Bolt (and for the love of all things holy... that Terrain/Deox combo) people are yapping about Flutter Mane. And I might not be a top 10 player, but as someone who's been at N⁰13 (1800+) these comments seem more like excuses. And I don't even use Flutter Mane, 90% of the time. What are they crying about? The unbelievably low HP and Defence stats? The manageable speed, with TR/Tork-Lil/Scarf? When did the game become so pathetic? I don't like many things that hard counter me. Does that mean I vote to ban them? No. Being a good player has become more about crying and asking to shift the game, instead of adapting. Wanna ask them to ban Urshifu from VGC too, folks? Cause last time I saw people used Ogerpon, hard countering it.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Hahaha. This has to be an absolute joke. Instead of literally raining fire on that monstrosity called Raging Bolt (and for the love of all things holy... that Terrain/Deox combo) people are yapping about Flutter Mane. And I might not be a top 10 player, but as someone who's been at N⁰13 (1800+) these comments seem more like excuses. And I don't even use Flutter Mane, 90% of the time. What are they crying about? The unbelievably low HP and Defence stats? The manageable speed, with TR/Tork-Lil/Scarf? When did the game become so pathetic? I don't like many things that hard counter me. Does that mean I vote to ban them? No. Being a good player has become more about crying and asking to shift the game, instead of adapting. Wanna ask them to ban Urshifu from VGC too, folks? Cause last time I saw people used Ogerpon, hard countering it.

Just, ?

Raging Bolt, the Pokemon that loses to Flutter Mane, Psychic Terrain, and has Thunderclap shut down by Follow Me Ogerpon, as well as loses to other common threats like Archaludon, is more problematic than the thing that is both good with and into Psyspam and to an extent, Archaludon? Keep in mind we have 4 Fairy resists in T1-T3 on the VR, one of them weak to Flutter Mane's primary STAB, two more being incapable of threatening it, and Amoonguss being esily answered by the most popular Pokemon (Excluding Flutter Mane) and Flutter Mane partner.. (We have 10 Electric resists ftr, notably 2 weak to your Dragon STAB but they are either faster or anther Raging Bolt).

The defensive stats that hardly matter because its going to kill you anyway, probably has Intimidate support, and even worse with Psychic Terrain? Manageable speed right, its only..the second fastest relevant Pokemon in the format, lmao. Not going to note the ridiculous ability to 2HKO almost everything in the metagame?

By the way, Ogerpon is not an Urshifu counter because it almost always runs Scarf and U-turn, and meta would probably be better if it was banned because ignoring Protect and defensive play is stupid and unfun.

 

[tyo]

Hahaha. This has to be an absolute joke. Instead of literally raining fire on that monstrosity called Raging Bolt (and for the love of all things holy... that Terrain/Deox combo) people are yapping about Flutter Mane. And I might not be a top 10 player, but as someone who's been at N⁰13 (1800+) these comments seem more like excuses. And I don't even use Flutter Mane, 90% of the time. What are they crying about? The unbelievably low HP and Defence stats? The manageable speed, with TR/Tork-Lil/Scarf? When did the game become so pathetic? I don't like many things that hard counter me. Does that mean I vote to ban them? No. Being a good player has become more about crying and asking to shift the game, instead of adapting. Wanna ask them to ban Urshifu from VGC too, folks? Cause last time I saw people used Ogerpon, hard countering it.

i'm also on the no ban side of flutter but using ladder rating to put down other people's arguments is not great, a blind dog can get to top 10 on DOU ladder if it was trained to lead deoxys indeedee and click expanding force every turn