Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 12 - Moth To A Flame

[PragaSV]

Prefacing my thoughts with the disclaimer that I am not a tour player, and my opinions on rona have been purely formed based on the ladder.

Gotten reqs, I'm Pro-DNB. This will be yet another suspect where the main bone of contention is the ability to pick and choose checks, and perhaps no other mon does it quite better than Volcarona. You never truly know what you're up against until its too late in most games while facing the moth, and if your goal is to never lose a game against it, stacking 6 checks or running stall is probably your best bet. That being said, the mon doesn't feel broken inspite of this. The main feature of this generation is its unpredictable nature, the ability to flip matchups is what makes teambuilding and innovation so much more rewarding than in any other metagame. Volcarona is merely the scapegoat, and not the sole contributor to this mechanic. With the right set of 4 moves and a favourable tera type, almost every breaker and setup sweeper can work its way around commonplace counters. Sets like Ghost Gambits to 1v1 Skarm, or Breaking Swipe Poison Gouging Fire to break through Gliscors/Tusks/Dozos, the metagame will always adapt and find new ways to make the same mons overcome its weaknesses. This aspect of Gen 9 is what makes winning with balance consistently hard, but also what makes it fun, challengin and dynamic, in my personal opinion. I don't find Volcarona's case compelling enough to push it over the top, no more than any of the other versatile breakers and sweepers in the metagame.

Echoing SupaGmoney posts which make some great points, almost all Pro-Ban arguments I've read are short sighted and cherry picked, and fail to look at the mon in its totality. I'd like to address a few of the more recurring ones -

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1. "There have been too many DNB tests, it is time for a change''- Perhaps the worst of the lot. Past suspect results should play no role in determining if Rona is balanced or not. Every suspect only deals with one question - is the mon in question balanced/healthly for the metagame or not? Projecting frustration towards lack of a change in the metagame onto one suspect is absurd. The only reason there hasn't been any change is because none of the mons are imbalanced, plain and simple.​

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2. "Volcarona's defensive utility is easily replaced with other fire types, we have already seen a metagame without the moth which was fine" - True and true, but the point of the suspect isn't to find a reason to keep Volcarona OU, but rather a reason to ban it. The state of the metagame without it has no say whatsover in determining if its balanced. I don't care if it won't be missed, if it isn't broken don't ban it, period.​

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3. "Too much pressure on the builder, stacking checks is the only way to deal with it" - Closest to a reasonable argument that the Ban side has provided, but I still tend to disagree. For one, no team is without weaknesses. It is virtually impossible build a team of six mons that can account for every variant of every breaker in the metagame. Secondly, as SupaG points out, there are a handful of checks to volcarona that are already commonplace in the metagame with significant usage, in fact I would argue it is harder to build a team that doesn't consist of atleast 2 soft checks to the moth. Any well built team can challenge Volcarona consistently even if a conscious effort isn't made to build against it.​

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4. "Fiery Dance and Flame Body is too RNG dependent" - The same could be said for Moltres, Zapdos, Iron Moth, any thunder wave abuser, Lava Plume, Discharge, Scald, Ivy Cudgel crits etc. Luck is always going to play a part in determing games, that is the essense of playing pokemon. This isn't any different for Volcarona when compared to the rest of the playing field.​

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In short, I'm going to be voting Do Not Ban. If you do play the metagame frequently and care enough to complain about its state incessantly, I strongly urge you to challenge yourself and get reqs to vote, whatever side it be.

 

[Storm Zone]

Hello just dropping by to give my opinions on volcarona, i'll take a different approach in explaining this one, i will give arguments for each stance, let's start with the ban side:

1. Setup Opportunities: Quiver dance is a broken move, no matter how you spin it, it boosts 3 different stats in a single turn, on a pokemon as versatile and as strong as volcarona, can open for very unhealthy strategies especially in a fast paced high variance meta like this one, and can invalidate entire comps given the right setup opportunity, and given the surge of fairies, in a gholdengo meta, it gets unlimited setup opportunity if played well on a decent team.

2. Set versatility: it can potentially win any matchup given the right set, and the arguments against this are: oh but it gets revenged easily, each set gets walled by something , etc. What you are not accounting for, is that a team consists of 6 pokemon, and 9 times out of 10, the set it chooses will have very good support, so let me give an example of good support (and a bit of teambuilding tricks), lets say you want tera fairy blast volcarona, when you build around this set, you base your team support around beating what beats it, so lets name some things that beat fairy blast volcarona:
1. heatran with taunt
2. espeed dragonite (only if it teras)
3. Toxic clodsire
4. Blissey
5. Skeledirge

So now that we have its checks down, we can build the team support around breaking these checks, so lets name some pokemon that check these:
1. Samurott-hisui: checks skele, blissey, clod, tran, gets free spikes while firing off stab.
2. Great tusk: can check all 5 of these, spin, knock, and get rocks
3. Dragapult: if specs, checks skeledirge, if hex u turn, can check the rest
4. Corviknight: checks clod, dnite, blissey
5. Gliscor: checks blissey, skeledirge, clod, heatran and dragonite and clicks knock off vs everything

Constructing a team with these and volcarona, we named the checks, we can pick what pairs with volcarona, take samurott hisui, so we have volc + samu, spikes + knockoff + pivot into volcarona, building on that, we name things its weak to:
1. Lando-T
2. Tusk
3. Wellspring

Add Gliscor to the mix, can run sd protect knock facade, add tusk for spin and rocks support, the water resist pult falls into place right, and we can add another for backup like dnite, to make sure we are good vs wellspring.

So now We have our team: Gliscor, tusk, samurott, volcarona, pult, dragonite, both the gliscor and the volcarona are tera fairy to make up for the lack of fairies.
We have knock support, spikes, pivoting, breaking power in specs pult, 2 lategame cleaners in gliscor + dragonite, so when played well, this team would easily muscle past all 5 of those "fairy volcarona checks" that we named.

so the next time you argue that every volcarona set has counters, remember to account for the team support, and the fact that the only reason its so splashable is because it can pick and choose which counters it has, because it runs a specific terablast set to nullify most counters. So the counters it picks and chooses, can easily be deconstructed by the team support, there is no other pokemon that has a set for every single counter, not even kingambit, even gambit cant get past bu tusk or id zama if they tera themselves.

3. Reliable Recovery: This is super important in arguments about controversial pokemon, theres lots of pokemon(especially in this metagame) that people will say is broken, but very very few of these have reliable recovery, theres a big difference between "broken" and "broken with longevity" , this ties back to my second argument, the team support, say we have a good balance with longevity, volcarona can come out, get a hit off, heal up, and swap out to a defensive pokemon, and this can be done gradually throughout the game by strategizing and gameplanning against the opposing team, a so called cheese set cant win consistently on an offense with no longevity, but can you really handle it in a 100+ turn game, can you really keep your checks healthy vs it when its constantly getting knocked, spiked on(especially in gholdengo meta), and chipped throughout the game, whether its cheese or not, once it has longevity, thats a big problem that can cause dire consequences for any opposing team, especially if theres many comps it can fit on given its typing and defensive utility, which brings me to my next point.

4. Easily Splashable: whats that phrase people use to justify broken pokemon being okay/passable, its "hard to fit" , well sometimes, that argument can be valid. Being hard to fit means theres very limited teams that a pokemon can be used effectively on, which can ultimately ease the strains and restrictions it puts on teambuilding, for example, lets say a pokemon can only fit on balance to be good, then when preparing for balance, prepare for that pokemon, u dont have to worry about checking it on HO, which is a different story altogether, ur not expecting a clodsire on hyper offense just to give you an example. with volcarona, this thing can fit on all playstyles even stall, on balance with longevity, and on HO with constant offensive pressure, which is a much harder strain on teambuilding than if u just had to prepare for it on balance.

5. Its Ability: Flame body has been one of the most unforgiving, uncompetitive abilities in recent memory, and the fact that on top of all the other ban arguments that was made on volcarona, if somehow, a team manages to handle volcarona well, on all styles, that team can still be severely punished/crippled by a random flame body burn(or 2,3,4,5 or 6! XD) its sort of ridiculous, and just adds to the reasons why this suspect is taking place.

6. Speed, power and Bulk: Tying back to my first point, the fact that its boosting move can add to its speed, its special bulk, and its power, 3 things that it already has, means there is less pressure and concern for living special hits, killing stuff and outspeeding stuff(which is VERY important in this metagame), tying back to my 5th point, physical attackers are immediately threatened by flame body if there are contact moves involved, so most of the time this mon doesnt have to worry about having physical bulk, its ability accounts for that. This is not healthy in any scenario no matter how you spin it, there is no other pokemon in ou that is capable of achieving all of this, atleast not at the same time.

7. Coverage: Tying back to my second point, each type it teras into, can have free terablast coverage for it, alongside stabs, and niche moves like hurricane, giga drain, psychic, etc. Good coverage is very important matchup wise, and again, in a meta with super high variance, this thrives, but the argument here is coverage, not cheese, although i am fully pro tera, once it exists unrestricted, cheese will never go away no matter the pokemon, the meta will always have sky rocketed variance, and it will be changing weekly and sometimes even daily, thats just the way it is, theres nothing wrong with cheese, its in every metagame anyway, just with tera its more present.


Okay so this is the ban stance, the method i will be using here is outweighing, will the positives for volcarona staying outweigh the negatives, will there be more dnb points than ban points, we're about to find out, so diving into the dnb stance:


1. Defensive Utility: It brings a huge positive to the metagame in terms of checking top tier threats that may be difficult to check otherwise, and no, this is not a broken checks broken argument, not by my definition, hypothetically, if i am on the dnb stance, i obviously would say that volcarona is not broken, and for broken checks broken to be valid, both parties need to be broken, both volc and the mon its checking, thats the definition i go by. Some great examples of this are kyurem, iron valiant, enamorus, rillaboom, weavile(doesnt counter, but heavily threatens) , kingambit(only threatens, doesnt counter), clefable(can be crippled by twave clef), its great at fitting on lots of comps that lack defensive utility against these pokemon, which brings me to my next point.

2. Easily Splashable: This is a universal argument that can be used for both sides, which explains why its also on the ban stance. It is easy to fit on many unique comps that would otherwise be invalidated by the threats in the metagame, lets say for example great tusk gambit rotom pult pecharunt(unique wellspring check), those 5 lose to special valiant and enamorus, volcarona can fit there, immediately fixing that weakness, another example would be a comp of mine i havent used yet, lando empoleon(checks wake and gren) meowscarada gweezing specs raging bolt, these 5 lose to kyurem, cm enam, and cm val lategame, add a volcarona, and u fix those issues. So to sum up, it benefits the meta by adding more viable unique comps with its splashability and defensive utility.

3. Each distinct set that volcarona has, comes with a penalty, if it is tera ground blast, it is revenged by dnite, weavile ice shard, scarf meow flower trick, aqua jet skewda, tera water wellspring, blissey etc. If it is tera fairy, it is revenged by heatran, dragonite, clodsire, skeledirge, blissey etc. If it is tera grass giga drain, its revenged by heatran, skeledirge, dnite, ice shard etc. If it is tera dragon, it is revenged by blissey, ice shard, espeed dnite, clod etc. Every single set it has opens the door for these pokemon to revenge kill you, remember when you tera into a different type, yes u cover the previous type's weaknesses, but you also gain a new weakness, so keep that in mind.

4. Punishes physical attackers, physical attackers run wild in this tier and to have some sort of restriction on them in the form of flame body, as much as i dislike the ability itself, there is a positive in threatening some of these physical attackers with the risk of a burn, although moltres can achieve the same and moltres is amazing so i guess this argument is disproven because theres more than 1 pokemon that can use flame body.


Alright so this is the dnb stance.


Looking at both stances, on the ban side we have:
1. Setup Opportunities
2. Set Versatility
3. Reliable Recovery
4. Easily Splashable
5. Good Ability
6. Good Stats(and a very good stat boosting move)
7. Good Coverage

on the dnb side we have:
1. Defensive Utility
2. Easily Splashable
3. Set Restrictions
4. Punishes physical attackers(Good Ability)

Now i will be taking my stance based on these arguments, on the ban side i was able to find seven super valid arguments on why volcarona should be banned, and on the dnb side, i could only find 4, which is defensive utility, the 3rd point was disproven in the second point of the ban stance, the 2nd and 4th point has a downside and is an argument for ban aswell. So really theres only 1 argument for dnb that can stand on its own, can't be disproven and is not also a ban argument, which is defensive utility.

I will conclude this post by unanimously taking the ban stance, this pokemon is too unhealthy to keep, and the negatives of it staying heavily outweighs the positives, i will be voting ban here, seems like its the best decision to make if we want a balanced metagame.

 

[Finchinator]

Volcarona to me is one of the harder Pokemon to tier. We have grown used to it over the generations, accepting it as an OU Pokemon no matter how frustrating playing it can sometimes be. As tier leader, challenging these norms and conventions has always intrigued me. I have documented my gripes against Volcarona this generation, in BW, and even in some other settings, which others have resonated with. We banned it earlier this generation, which coincided with one of the better periods of SV OU, and it has since returned and arguably coincided with some more chaos. This is not always a bad thing, but I do not personally like Volcarona's presence in the metagame and I do think it stretches our resources too thin both in the teambuilder and in the game. The initial quickban was regrettable despite this as we should have always had a community suspect on something with this profile, not a quickban, and I apologize for that misstep. With that in mind, I do intend to vote ban again as a suspect participant this time around.

The argument simply comes down to if Volcarona is broken or not to me, which can be defined by having sufficient offensive and defensive counterplay across the metagame. However, a lot of posts have disregarded this and tried to ignite their own sense of justice based off of defensive merit, status quo preservation, or whatever else they deem personally prevelant over tiering norms. This is fine as everyone is entitled to feel how they wish and whoever gets reqs can vote based off of whatever they want, but I disagree with a lot of it.

Let's take one recurring argument, for example. It goes along the lines of "Volcarona fits onto offense as a quick check to Fairy moves (Iron Valiant and Enamorus) and Ice moves (Kyurem), so it is a net positive for the tier" -- it is easy to view bans in the light of immediate net positive vs net negative, so I totally get why people think this way. However, this disregards any potential negatives it has altogether and causes the oversaturation of threats in the metagame. Having a large handful Pokemon that "may" be broken, but also have defensive merit will never end well. This is what this logic extends into.

Maybe banning one Pokemon makes other Pokemon worrisome (note: I do not think that is the case here if Volcarona goes), but if we keep something that itself is worrisome, then this is just going to end up with broken-checks-broken (or "kinda broken checks kinda broken") or a metagame where teambuilding is filled with obstacles. In reality, this is going to cause more long-term strain than it is going to truly be a net positive. This is why tiering is a multi-part act where one ban sometimes can lead to future discussions and action, not just one single stationary act that leads to a full-stop after all. If the metagame ends up in a place where future action is needed directly or indirectly because of Volcarona's presence being removed, then we will react accordingly. Maybe this is needed, maybe not -- I am not going to try and predict the future as theorymon is a silly practice as I explained here and here, but this thread has meandered into all sorts of crazy, almost off-topic avenues that I do not care for personally.

What I care about as a tier leader, suspect voter, and active player is if Volcarona is broken in the metagame or not. And, in my opinion, it is broken. Counterplay to it is scattered and overlap really only comes in the form of overwhelming priority like Choice Band Dragonite or extreme defensive measures, which only fit on limited amounts of teams, such as Unaware Clodsire, Calm Mind Blissey, or SDef Unaware Skeledirge. In fact, I will go through everything I think can realistically do well into Volcarona (ranked in the S, A, or B ranks in the current VR) just to show the lack of overlap and all of the conditions surrounding them.

• -- needs to be Choice Band or Thunder Wave + Dragon Darts and it needs to avoid Tera Dragon or Tera Fairy
• -- needs to be Tera Fire/Water, avoid Will-O-Wisp, avoid Sucker Punch on Morning Sun or Substitute, etc.
• -- needs to be SDef and Toxic on a non-Substitute turn
• -- needs to be Rock Slide/Rock Tomb and do it before Tera
• -- needs to avoid Bug Buzz or use Tera to scout for it and avoid Tera Dragon/Water at the wrong time
• -- needs to avoid Bug Buzz and Tera Blast Dragon/Fairy or use Tera to scout for it and avoid a few possible Tera interactions
• -- needs to avoid Substitute on Toxic or Tera Ground/Steel if relying on AV Psyshock
• -- needs to be Stone Edge and avoid awkward Tera interactions
• -- one of the best things here, but still needs to be packing ESpeed, avoid Wisp, and potentially Tera Dragon depending on health
• -- another potential check, but huge swing depending on Tera Ground, Giga Drain, Sub, and your own SDef investment and Tera
• -- more linear as it can damage Volc enough for sure, but has to avoid Tera Ground or Tera Dragon or time Tera around them
• -- another potential check, but has to avoid Giga Drain and potentially some neutral Teras as well
• -- needs to be SDef and avoid Giga Drain/Bug Buzz, PDef gets 3H by neutral Tera Blast if invested
• -- close to a good counter and at least a solid check, has to time itself ok around Tera Ground, overall can stop most Volc well
• -- a genuine counter assuming it is a good set, can get stalled out of Recover PP long-term maybe, but overall handles Volc well
• -- entirely Tera reliant on both ends, but can be a check with a Tera trade at the very least
• -- very careful around Tera and can end up a game loss, but barring that it can RK it at least
• -- can RK it with the right conditions
• -- like Clodsire, counter assuming it is a good set
• -- needs Brave Bird, but then tends to do ok into offensive variants

Yes, Volcarona is very beatable. Yes, it can be accounted for in the teambuilder and in practice. You see a ton of Pokemon above that have sequnces to defeat Volcarona, which makes this discussion so nuanced. However, there is so much conditional counterplay there are so few reliable stops, and it does not give off its set much at team preview whatsoever, leading to far too much trial by fire and far too few ways to skilfully deduce the set, play around it, and preserve necessary conditions while playing a productive game. The lack of overlap in counterplay and the exceedingly circumstantial nature of it all is what breaks Volcarona to me.

We have too many games where you go Primarina and end up losing 1.5-2 Pokemon to QD -> Giga Drain. Yes, you may be able to stop it afterwards without losing the entire game, but even without snowballing, Volcarona has done a ton of damage to the point that the gamestate is irrecoverable. You can say the same about going to Dragapult or Gouging Fire and losing them to Tera Blast. Having to preserve half of your team AND get the sequence right without much reassurance beyond guesswork is not a healthy dynamic for the metagame. Obviously Volcarona has insane snowballing/sweeping potential, too, but even disregarding that, it can be a hard Pokemon to minimize.

I will be the first person to admit that Volcarona is not an inner-circle Uber, having some counterplay. But when you lack one of the SDef Unaware Pokemon, Blissey, CB Dragonite, or one of the other small handful of things that were touched on above, you need to suffocate Volcarona or deduce the perfect line without having a ton of information that you need to know to make that decision.

Given this, I will be voting ban on Volcarona.

 

[658Greninja]

Just to examine a few of the replays SupaGmoney provided.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-742734

This replay demonstrates why “Just use Tera” is not a good argument for keeping Volc. Since Glowking had to Tera Water in front of Volc, Raptor’s opponent now has nothing for the Comfey as it starts to setup.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-742038?p2

Again, this is another example of the matchup fishy nature of Volc. Xrn made the right play by clicking Tera Flying on the Moon, but guess what? The Volc was Tera Steel Wisp and later Volc sets up on the Raging Bolt for the win. This game also demonstrates why stacking checks is not an argument. Those checks get worn down throughout a match in practice. It also ties back to the fact you don’t know the set. Ok, so you have a Prima, an AV Glowking, and a Dragonite on the team, you see Volc on team preview. Who do you preserve? It’s possible to preserve one or even two, but three? No, especially since these are all expected to check other threats on Volc’s team. Prima dies to +1 Tera Ground or Fairy or Giga Drain. Dragonite loses to Tera Fairy or Wisp. AV Glowking loses to Modest Tera Ground or Tera Steel Wisp, the former is the most common Volc spread in the 1825+ ladder which 2HKOs AV Glowking after rocks, even if it clicks Tera Water the next turn.

+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 252-296 (63.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Slowking-Galar: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There’s also been more experimentation with Volc, making it more broken and unpredictable each week. Substitute is picking up in usage which shuts down SpD Toxic Gliscor and non-Psyshock Glowking as consistent counterplay. Tera Ghost which smokes Dragonite and Glowking while 2HKOing Prima with max SpA. There’s also Tera Dark as mentioned by Trosko which is a response to the increased usage of Psyshock Glowking that also hits targets like Dragapult, Dirge, and hits most things neutrally while granting you a Sucker Punch resistance. Now you just need either Bug Buzz for Samu/Moon or Giga Drain for Prima.

SV OU being Matchup Fishy or over-saturated is what players have an issue with, and it doesn’t matter if something is more broken or match-up fishy than the other, it is a matter of making progress for a healthier tier. If I was a plumber and my client had several leaks, patching up one leak regardless of how big one is compared to the other, is still progress. This isn’t a skill issue either, several top players have voiced that Volc should be banned either on this forum or outside it.

Plus I think it should be noted that SPL wasn’t the only tour going on. There was also OST and ST.

Also no, Booster Valiant is not a good Volc response. It can switch right out and it has no trouble coming back in due to its typing + bulk. So you’ve basically wasted a Booster for a telegraphed Encore.

What people from the DNB side and even from the Pro Ban side misses is how versatile and how many more opportunities Volc has to sweep compared to other sweepers. Let’s take an example, Roaring Moon.

While Moon is a strong sweeper, it’s only gonna fit on HO so trading with Tera is more effective and preserving HP is more doable since the games are much shorter. Moon also only does one thing, click DD and click buttons. It doesn’t have the longevity to keep coming in, nor does it want to because it’ll lose the Proto boost (yes it learns Roost but nobody’s using that shit lmao). Chipping Moon into range of priority is much easier with rocks or other methods. Moon also rarely uses any Teras outside of Tera Flying or the occasional Ghost for Body Press mons and Dnite.

That doesn’t work with Volc, because Volc has several opportunities to come in and click QD. You can’t chip it with Rocks cause Boots. Chipping with Status is risky because Substitute is something Volcs are running more frequently. Even if you chipped it down, Volc can Morning Sun that progress. It can come in repeatedly because of its longevity and defensive profile, meaning it also fits on multiple builds.

Like Storm Zone said, Volc is supported by 5 other teammates. Volc can easily be preserved and built around with whatever Tera it uses. It can wait until its checks are battered or dead to commit to a sweep. As I stated earlier, every Volc set has checks, but you don’t know what the Volc set is in preview unless its a sample or you’ve seen the team before.

I’m one of the more optimistic and passionate players on the site, but I am willing to discuss issues within the tier. One of those imo being Volcarona. Plus you could argue some mons labeled as problematic like Wellspring Ogerpon become easier to check without Volc in the tier as Grass types like Serp and Amoonguss pick up in usage, though that is in the realm of theorycraft.

 

[weirdo faye]

Let’s keep something in mind: the ladder is not the real metagame. Of course, if all you do is running volatile HOs with Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, Glimmora… you will hardly think Volcarona is broken.

Please, be reasonable and ask the most experienced playerbase about this matter before doing anything about it. Let the metagame progress in the right direction. We’ve got a thousand breaking tools and worries from a team building perspective to the point that Volcarona won’t be missed, the same way it wasn’t a year ago.

only logged on during my precious weekend gaming times cos a friend said he posted. ok sorry boss, we might just let suspect tests be only for 'elite', 'esteemed' tier tournament players such as... urself, im guessing? rest of us peasants then dont have to bother wasting 1-2 hrs smashing buttons for the reqs. wats the point of having a suspect test thats sposedly community driven and community decided when 'ladder is not the real metagame', when majority of the ppl playing showdown are ladder players cos theyre casual or cba to schedule with tours. next time ill feedback to the relevant authorities (smogon ou leads?) we should keep the filthy ladder meta from the polished professional tour scene as 2 separate things, duly noted

L and snobby take, im not here to farm likes, just speaking my mind & i dont think im wrong here

 

[ant4456]

This is not an opinion that one would expect of me, but I find myself unable to find any actual compelling reason that Volcarona is more broken than the average power level of OU, or creates dynamics that are not otherwise present.

Finch's argument that broken check broken cannot be used as an argument for anti-Volcarona ban, especially, feels pretty off to me when that is essentially this meta. We have had actual, top level players, who influenced massively the course of this tier, pretty explicitly say that they wanted the meta shaped around extreme threats that check extreme threats. Volcarona may have a better matchup against less bulky Offense, but I for one welcome any recourse against the ladder infested full of the same HO cores, and I cannot find a reason that Volcarona is uniquely bad.

Like, deadass, I can think of less actual, consistent checks to Kingambit than Volcarona. Kingambit with its own sets can find itself tanking high-powered attacks, getting free Sword Dance boosts and then using priority in its favor. From there you have Encore and maybe status, but that's about it, and that's less than Volcarona having actual Pokemon that you can use to check it, and Pokemon that can be used on several teamstyles. Running Clodsire on a Balance team is not going to kill you, and in fact it is pretty damn good. Kingambit's recourse is essentially around limiting it by not just attacking it, or trying to catch it into Tera Catch 22's that are not consistent. And right now is considered one of Kingambit's weaker periods through the tier. If that Pokemon at its best was not broken, I find it hard to think Volcarona is uniquely busted.

You wanted your Tera Broken check Broken metagame, and that's what happened. Volcarona is a broken that checks some other brokens, which is the same as most other top tiers in this meta. Do not say "this is not what we wanted", because that is what literally a member of the council advocated for, and berated the rest of the council at the time for banning this thing. Volcarona is on its way to a DNB 50% 50% vote and the council back at square one, and at this point I just think it's funny. Use the Metagame Knowledge :tm: by playing in order to just know the Tera, EZ.

Now to be clear, because some would categorize me as saying "it should be banned but I don't want it to", this is not me saying that Volcarona should be banned, but that it should not be banned because it is literally just an average top tier in this metagame, let's be serious. Almost every top tier can do almost anything provided, this one literally has more counterplay on average.

Gonna apologize for this post, because it's not really aging very well. While I am not entirely sure about if the test will actually go one direction or the other, I definitely did not believe the Pro Ban sentiment would be this strong, or the demographics of that, at the minimum.

It was a pretty snide post, and talking to some people about it no one really seemed to like it. Still, I argued that I had a point, and in retrospect I don't think it was a valid one. I felt that the prevailing thought was that people wanted a broken check broken metagame, ie. talks of not banning Pokemon solely they can check others in a detailed ecosystem or something. "Every Pokemon is a precious tool, ban only what you must (ie. Bloodmoon)". But clearly that isn't really true, and that I was maybe just frustrated. It was going to be my last suspect post all gen in my head, because I felt the doomerism through my veins that the tier had no real shot of improvement.

And as someone who never really gets reqs, and is therefore technically the problem, that alone is pretty bad for me to have made that post. If it wasn't clear in the original post, my opinion that Volcarona was "not broken" was based on the idea that a broken check broken metagame was the goal, "Keep everything strong because it's fun" etc. etc., and I still do not think a Pokemon like Volcarona is much worse (if at all) than Kingambit outside of Tera Blast shenanigans. But since that does not seem to be the notion, I'm going to not be snide and just give my actual take on Volcarona:

Volcarona is an awful Pokemon to keep around in a Tera metagame. Period. It is a Pokemon that has few consistent answers, and all of which are fairly extreme, passive, etc. While there are answers to Volcarona in the game, and plays to limit it in match itself, it existing inherently will limit teambuilding. It is also a massive contributor to threat saturation, as it is essentially several Pokemon added to the extremely large roster of Pokemon to account for.

I find the argument that the checking it offers to certain Pokemon to be a disingenuous argument. The few things Volcarona adds defensively to the tier are absolutely made up for by removing like, what, 4+ viable very different answers in the builder? And on the other hand, it is not like Volcarona is unique in its ability to break Pokemon, or get boosts and revenge sweep. Which is part of why I said in my original post all that shit, I do not think it is entirely unique in actual play, but it is worse in terms of building. Nothing it adds to the tier will be missed, and in return the tier becomes much better. Much more fun to play.

And honestly, a Volcarona ban would singlehandedly make me more interested in the tier. So I really do hope it gets banned, and this tier can get on the right track. My apologies for the last post.

 

[Blue Sun]

Volc's real issue is that you concede that you are gonna lose to some variants of it even before you finish building your team. In contrast to some of the pillars of the meta like Kingambit which regardless, of their set or tera preference are checked by the same mons, Volc does not have splashable checks that fair well against the endless version that it can run. You can never slap something and tell yourself yes now im confident against volc. And it doesnt even has to do with tera - bulky qd, offensive qd + 3 attacks and the sub set are all so different with each other that are almost different mons and absolutely crush different playstyles.

I get the pro DNB arguments. Volc is one of the cases that can be dealt in practice through pressure, momentum etc. However it is within probability that one will lose more games to a random set that is niche enough to break his team than it is statistically acceptable. Is this within reason in a competitive setting? I believe it probably isn't but each can have his one opinion and tbh its one time that nobody can be wrong or right. Volc isnt Ursaluna-Bloodmoon...

Personally my mentality when it comes to suspect tests is one of consious passiveness. Idc enough to vote and I'll probably play whatever meta unfolds. I have no expectations for whichever result. I do believe however that the meta should not be what a close group of friends have in mind to be the perfect status quo. Smogon is a massive site and part of its allure is its big playerbase. The ladder is what most people play and its not unreasonable for it to be the primary focus when it comes to balancing.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Volc's real issue is that you concede that you are gonna lose to some variants of it even before you finish building your team. In contrast to some of the pillars of the meta like Kingambit which regardless, of their set or tera preference are checked by the same mons, Volc does not have splashable checks that fair well against the endless version that it can run. You can never slap something and tell yourself yes now im confident against volc. And it doesnt even has to do with tera - bulky qd, offensive qd + 3 attacks and the sub set are all so different with each other that are almost different mons and absolutely crush different playstyles.

I get the pro DNB arguments. Volc is one of the cases that can be dealt in practice through pressure, momentum etc. However it is within probability that one will lose more games to a random set that is niche enough to break his team than it is statistically acceptable. Is this within reason in a competitive setting? I believe it probably isn't but each can have his one opinion and tbh its one time that nobody can be wrong or right. Volc isnt Ursaluna-Bloodmoon...

Personally my mentality when it comes to suspect tests is one of consious passiveness. Idc enough to vote and I'll probably play whatever meta unfolds. I have no expectations for whichever result. I do believe however that the meta should not be what a close group of friends have in mind to be the perfect status quo. Smogon is a massive site and part of its allure is its big playerbase. The ladder is what most people play and its not unreasonable for it to be the primary focus when it comes to balancing.

I've actually been playing more regularly and I just am not seeing how volc is this huge problem. There are quite a few pokemon (Chansey, Skele, Clodsire) you can place on your team that instantly take away any volc vulnerabilities your team may have, and if you are willing to prepare a two pokemon core to defend against its even more answers. For a alleged top tier threat I don't think this is too much to ask. Kingambit necessitates at least two different checks/answers for any team you run, period. This is before you even go into the several different teras it can also run to turn these losing matchups into winning ones.

I also don't see how it puts more of a strain on team building than any other A/S tier threat in the tier. worst case scenario you force it to tera check one, check two comes in kills it and you still have your tera left and they lose a wincon. It can run 100 teras yes, but decently made teams are not just going to immediately fall over to one quiver dance, a tera, and then volc just runs through your team. If it gets a sweep it most likely was set up by the rest of the team. I don't see how this is unhealthy. Stall doesn't care about it at all, balance has so many answers and counter play for it, and there are even shrewd ways for HO to get around it.

But it seems it definitely has been the pokemon pariah for the last few decades so it will probably get banned again, I just don't see the issue with it.

 

[FayaWizard]

I've actually been playing more regularly and I just am not seeing how volc is this huge problem. There are quite a few pokemon (Chansey, Skele, Clodsire) you can place on your team that instantly take away any volc vulnerabilities your team may have, and if you are willing to prepare a two pokemon core to defend against its even more answers. For a alleged top tier threat I don't think this is too much to ask. Kingambit necessitates at least two different checks/answers for any team you run, period. This is before you even go into the several different teras it can also run to turn these losing matchups into winning ones.

Claiming that you can just place Chansey (which isn't even viable in OU, as Blissey is much more valued for its ability to carry boots), Skeledirge, or Clodsire on any team is just... wrong. Blissey only fits on stall, due to its loss of Toxic and Teleport. Clodsire and Skeledirge are slightly more splashable, able to fit on bulky balance teams as well as stall, but are also both shakier checks to Volcarona as Skeledirge loses to any tera that hits it super-effectively (252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 234-276 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), while Clodsire has to keep itself healthy lest it fall into 2HKO range (252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 194-230 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO).

As for the Kingambit comparisons I keep seeing people make in this thread, you can see the post I made here, but TLDR: Kingambit's counters are far more splashable and viable compared to Volcarona's, with Iron Defense Zamazenta in particular being a near full stop to any set Kingambit runs, while Volcarona's counters are hard to fit on most teams, as described above.

It can run 100 teras yes, but decently made teams are not just going to immediately fall over to one quiver dance, a tera, and then volc just runs through your team. If it gets a sweep it most likely was set up by the rest of the team.

I don't see why a Pokemon has to be able to sweep through entire teams by itself to be considered "broken". Look at Archaludon, the last mon we considered broken. It certainly wasn't sweeping a lot of teams, but instead could utilize its bulk to blow holes into enemy teams, often trading 2 or even 3 for 1 and allowing its teammates to sweep.

Stall doesn't care about it at all, balance has so many answers and counter play for it, and there are even shrewd ways for HO to get around it.

Of course Stall doesn't care about it: it's the ONLY style that can comfortably fit the only Volcarona counters. Meanwhile, Balance's "answers", usually mons like Slowking-Galar, Ting Lu, Skeledirge, or Dragonite all drop to common set variations (Tera Ground for Gking and Skeledirge, Tera Water for Skeledirge and Ting Lu, Flame Body procs/Wisp/Tera Dragon for Dragonite). Hyper Offense is another style that has a decent matchup into Volc as it can force trades by saccing mons into Volcarona, but even then a well-timed Tera can quickly flip the game, like Tera Ground into Stone Edge Zamazenta, or Tera Dragon into Gouging Fire.

 

[Bold School]

2. "Volcarona's defensive utility is easily replaced with other fire types, we have already seen a metagame without the moth which was fine" - True and true, but the point of the suspect isn't to find a reason to keep Volcarona OU, but rather a reason to ban it. The state of the metagame without it has no say whatsover in determining if its balanced. I don't care if it won't be missed, if it isn't broken don't ban it, period.

You say this, but there were plenty of people arguing it was important to keep Volc for the defensive utility. Most of the posts pointing out it can be replaced by other Fire types and such were direct counters to those points. As you yourself said, the point of a suspect isn't to find a reason to keep Volcarona in OU. But this applies to the folks who were touting Volc's defensive utility.

4. "Fiery Dance and Flame Body is too RNG dependent" - The same could be said for Moltres, Zapdos, Iron Moth, any thunder wave abuser, Lava Plume, Discharge, Scald, Ivy Cudgel crits etc. Luck is always going to play a part in determing games, that is the essense of playing pokemon. This isn't any different for Volcarona when compared to the rest of the playing field.

The difference between Volcarona and something like Moltres is how one is a threatening setup sweeper and the other is primarily used as a more defensive mon. It's entirely different. If Moltres gets a burn proc, it won't then go on to sweep the opposing team. It isn't something that urgently needs to be revenge killed. Moltres also isn't boosting its special defense at the same time it is threatening passive burns. Volc is covering both sides of the opposing attacking spectrum with this QD/FB cheese.

Before somebody says it, the difference between that and Gouging Fire would be that Gouging Fire often has trouble fitting Burning Bulwark on most of its sets. Volc has the ability. It doesn't need to take up a move slot for it. It can run something like Wisp. But it doesn't need to.

Volcarona also gets more RNG than the vast majority of the tier and other borderline threats. It has access to both Flame Body and Fiery Dance, which can each potentially steal a game even if you don't run into the wrong set for your team. To deal with that on top of trying to deal with all the different sets and Tera combinations it can run is a lot.

I also don't see how it puts more of a strain on team building than any other A/S tier threat in the tier. worst case scenario you force it to tera check one, check two comes in kills it and you still have your tera left and they lose a wincon. It can run 100 teras yes, but decently made teams are not just going to immediately fall over to one quiver dance, a tera, and then volc just runs through your team. If it gets a sweep it most likely was set up by the rest of the team. I don't see how this is unhealthy. Stall doesn't care about it at all, balance has so many answers and counter play for it, and there are even shrewd ways for HO to get around it.

The problem everyone is dealing with is threat saturation. The meta has a threat saturation problem and yet there are people who want to ban nothing. If you need two pokemon for Volc, two pokemon for Gambit, and two physical walls because of all the physical threats like Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and Waterpon, how is this reasonable across all playstyles? Unless you are playing stall, you can't run two defensive walls and have checks to all the special threats in the meta in addition to Volc. You cannot cover all of the borderline special threats in Volc, Kyurem, and Bolt with the same team like that. You can justify any of the borderline threats in a vacuum. But you can't expect people to devote two or more mons to every big threat in the meta. You only get 6 pokemon.

Furthermore, team support is a problem in Volc's case because you can pick and choose your counter. A good player will optimize their team around this. Even if Volc isn't the one that wins with the sweep, the pressure this creates is much larger than it appears. And this is even worse in a meta that already has a threat saturation issue.

Almost all the heavily defensive teams need HBD because of hazards. And every team that isn't heavily defensive needs priority because there are too many checks to cover without RK and the speed tiers are too warped for non-priority to ensure RKs. This is the state of the meta. But Volc cannot even be reliably RK'd because it boosts special defense for Thunderclap, has Flame Body for all the physical priority, and can even heal. Sub sets are also a thing.

 

[PragaSV]

You say this, but there were plenty of people arguing it was important to keep Volc for the defensive utility.

My intention was to highlight that this shouldn't play a factor in determining your stance. Theorycrafting a meta without Volcarona and using that to justify its brokenness or lack thereof is an incorrect approach imo. Volcarona's defensive utility to the meta should hold no water in both Pro-Ban and Pro-DNB sides.

The problem everyone is dealing with is threat saturation. The meta has a threat saturation problem and yet there are people who want to ban nothing. If you need two pokemon for Volc, two pokemon for Gambit, and two physical walls because of all the physical threats like Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and Waterpon, how is this reasonable across all playstyles? Unless you are playing stall, you can't run two defensive walls and have checks to all the special threats in the meta in addition to Volc. You cannot cover all of the borderline special threats in Volc, Kyurem, and Bolt with the same team like that. You can justify any of the borderline threats in a vacuum. But you can't expect people to devote two or more mons to every big threat in the meta. You only get 6 pokemon.

You make some great points in terms of the direction the meta and this generation as a whole is headed. Any rational builder needs to come to terms with the fact that it is virtually impossible to build a team that has sufficient defensive counterplay to every variant of every breaker in the tier, even if you are to resort to a pure stall lineup. This is where certain playstyles do trump others, and perhaps personal preferences over the type of playstyle that should dominate the meta differs from person to person. That being said, I do believe you are overstating the number of slots you are giving up to deal with some of the breakers you've mentioned, and you have completely ignored role compression which I do believe is an underrated aspect of the metagame.

To illustrate, you mentioned 2 mons for Volc + 2 for Gambit + 2 physical walls giving you a template for a full team of 6 already. (On a side note -Why are your physical walls not the same as your slots for gambit answers?)

1. A SpDef Gliscor with SD provides a soft check to Volcarona, Raging Bolt, and if need be using Tera to face Kyurem, doing all this while providing a reasonable threat to Gambits with EQ.
2. HP invested Zamazenta with ID+Roar acts as a great check to many physical threats including gambits, while also providing an emergency answer to most variants of Volcarona.
3. A Glowking with Psyshock+Toxic/Twave provides an instant answer to most variants of Volcarona, and if need be uses tera to counter tera-ground variants. It's great into Bolt, provides some relief vs Kyurem and also provides defensive utlity against most special attackers in the meta.
4. Primarina, which I strongly suspect will climb multiple spots in usage, is an extremely versatile mon that can run a variety of sets and perhaps best illustrates the importance of role compression. Its typing makes it a decent answer to many physical breakers with some defensive investments, Encore is always handy vs set up sweepers like Gambit and Rona, the surprise custap can come in clutch in many situations, and even the standard AV set provides a sponge for attacks while giving momentum with flip turn.

These are just a few examples of one pokemon providing a soft answer to a myriad of threats. Unlike the rain infested meta that archaludon had dominated, there is no shortage of variety in team structures and cores right now. You aren't limited to using the same handful of checks every game just to stand a chance to win.

Yes, you can cook up a tera type and a set that can any breaker can run to circumvent any of these so called "answers" that I mentioned above, but as I have mentioned earlier, that isn't unique to Volcarona but is merely the nature of the metagame. If you are so intent on building purely from a defensive perspective, and expect to have solid checks to every breaker in this metagame, you will indeed be disappointed. Banning Volcarona and expecting that to lead to your "ideal" metagame where balance and bulky offense plays a central role is optimistic to fault, you are once again projecting your frustrations with the state of the metagame as a whole onto one single mon which hasn't even proven to be the problem.

 

[658Greninja]

My intention was to highlight that this shouldn't play a factor in determining your stance. Theorycrafting a meta without Volcarona and using that to justify its brokenness or lack thereof is an incorrect approach imo. Volcarona's defensive utility to the meta should hold no water in both Pro-Ban and Pro-DNB sides.



You make some great points in terms of the direction the meta and this generation as a whole is headed. Any rational builder needs to come to terms with the fact that it is virtually impossible to build a team that has sufficient defensive counterplay to every variant of every breaker in the tier, even if you are to resort to a pure stall lineup. This is where certain playstyles do trump others, and perhaps personal preferences over the type of playstyle that should dominate the meta differs from person to person. That being said, I do believe you are overstating the number of slots you are giving up to deal with some of the breakers you've mentioned, and you have completely ignored role compression which I do believe is an underrated aspect of the metagame.

To illustrate, you mentioned 2 mons for Volc + 2 for Gambit + 2 physical walls giving you a template for a full team of 6 already. (On a side note -Why are your physical walls not the same as your slots for gambit answers?)

1. A SpDef Gliscor with SD provides a soft check to Volcarona, Raging Bolt, and if need be using Tera to face Kyurem, doing all this while providing a reasonable threat to Gambits with EQ.
2. HP invested Zamazenta with ID+Roar acts as a great check to many physical threats including gambits, while also providing an emergency answer to most variants of Volcarona.
3. A Glowking with Psyshock+Toxic/Twave provides an instant answer to most variants of Volcarona, and if need be uses tera to counter tera-ground variants. It's great into Bolt, provides some relief vs Kyurem and also provides defensive utlity against most special attackers in the meta.
4. Primarina, which I strongly suspect will climb multiple spots in usage, is an extremely versatile mon that can run a variety of sets and perhaps best illustrates the importance of role compression. Its typing makes it a decent answer to many physical breakers with some defensive investments, Encore is always handy vs set up sweepers like Gambit and Rona, the surprise custap can come in clutch in many situations, and even the standard AV set provides a sponge for attacks while giving momentum with flip turn.

Yes, you can cook up a tera type and a set that can any breaker can run to circumvent any of these so called "answers" that I mentioned above, but as I have mentioned earlier, that isn't unique to Volcarona but is merely the nature of the metagame. If you are so intent on building purely from a defensive perspective, and expect to have solid checks to every breaker in this metagame, you will indeed be disappointed. Banning Volcarona and expecting that to lead to your "ideal" metagame where balance and bulky offense plays a central role is optimistic to fault, you are once again projecting your frustrations with the state of the metagame as a whole onto one single mon which hasn't even proven to be the problem.

1. SpD Gliscor is 2HKOd by +1 Modest Volc Flamethrower which again, is the most common EV spread in high ladder. Meanwhile Gliscor doesn’t OHKO back.

+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

2. Zama is taking 50% from +1 Fiery Dance or Flamethrower. It can Roar it out but doesn’t check it again. Stone Edge variants would be able to beat pre-Tera Volc, but you’re also banking on an 80% accurate move to check it while Volc 2HKOs you. Plus Volc can Terastilize and make that irrelevant anyways.

3. Vs non-AV Glowking, Volc doesn’t really need Tera to beat it, as Modest Bug Buzz can outright 2HKO Glowking with a bit of chip. Landing a T-Wave is risky if it’s Tera Ground. Landing a Toxic is risky if it’s Tera Steel or Sub. Not to mention Tera Ground Blast 2HKOs. You also can’t Tera Water vs offensive variants because Modest Tera Ground 2HKOs anyways.

+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Tera Water Slowking-Galar: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even if you do manage to trade a Toxic with Volc, you’re now playing a dangerous game where you have to dance around it, which is risky if Fiery Dance boosts are in the picture. Also Terastilizing vs Volc is not always ideal, because like the replay with Volc + Comfey, you become vulnerable vs Volc’s teammates. Congrats, you’ve just lost your Raging Bolt “check”. (I put check in quotations cause Glowking isn’t actually a good Bolt check, it gets 2HKOd by +1 Tbolt or Dpulse, but Glowking can safely bring in teammates like Tusk or Ting-Lu.)

4. Like many others have said, Primarina gets 2HKOd by +1 Tera Blast or Giga Drain. Plus, it isn’t hard to chip it in range. As Storm Zone said earlier, Volc’s ability to pick and choose its checks allows you to fill in the gaps. Your Volc loses to Prima? Pair it with Knock from Samu or Weavile and it starts eating chip. Samu will force Prima to eat chip from it and Spikes. Unlike most other sweepers, Volc can outlast checks like Prima due to Boots and/or Morning Sun.

Checking Volc from a defensive perspective is often the only option, because Volc is getting +1 to its speed and few things are actually outspeeding it. Your options are limited to the only priority moves that deal decent enough dmg to Volc, Dnite’s E-Speed and Gambit’s Sucker. Both of which get ruined by Wisp variants without Tera Fire, or they risk getting burnt cause of Flame Body, then you lost your valuable Dnite/Gambit. Compare this to breakers like Wogre and Ursaluna who can get out-offensed by faster threats or chipled by hazards. Volc though has multiple opportunities of coming in.

 

[PragaSV]

Checking Volc from a defensive perspective is often the only option, because Volc is getting +1 to its speed and few things are actually outspeeding it. Your options are limited to the only priority moves that deal decent enough dmg to Volc, Dnite’s E-Speed and Gambit’s Sucker. Both of which get ruined by Wisp variants without Tera Fire, or they risk getting burnt cause of Flame Body, then you lost your valuable Dnite/Gambit. Compare this to breakers like Wogre and Ursaluna who can get out-offensed by faster threats or chipled by hazards. Volc though has multiple opportunities of coming in.

I am familiar with all of these calcs, at no point did I ever quote any of these sets as a sureshot answer / counter to Volcarona, I was merely providing an illustration on role compression and how you don't need 6 slots to have decent defensive counterplay to the more common breakers in the meta. If you pay closer attention to my post, I was deliberate and accurate in the way I described the kind of utility each mon provides defensively, notwithstanding the numerous calcs provided by you. Gliscor is a soft check, Zama an emergency answer as you correctly point out its one time measure of roar, a glowking providing a reliable answer to most variants, and the encore and momentum utility provided by primarina.

Repeating myself as this directly addresses everything you've stated in your post.

Yes, you can cook up a tera type and a set that can any breaker can run to circumvent any of these so called "answers" that I mentioned above, but as I have mentioned earlier, that isn't unique to Volcarona but is merely the nature of the metagame. If you are so intent on building purely from a defensive perspective, and expect to have solid checks to every breaker in this metagame, you will indeed be disappointed.

Below quote perfectly deconstructs the cental argument of your post, in fact certain tera types like steel have been missed out which you have considered in your post lmao. And this isn't unique to Volcarona either. 4MSS for some reason just flies over every Pro-Ban argument's head and is dismissed as trivial, but it is indeed a real thing. So is the opportunity cost of tera.

Like Vert said, “Volcarona is very easy to say is broken when you tell me it's running flamethrower, bug buzz, quiver dance, morning sun, tera blast-water, giga drain, fiery dance, tera blast-ground, substitute, tera blast-fairy, psychic, and tera blast-ghost all on the same set.”

Another problem I have with your calcs and reasoning of checks lacking the same longevity that Volcarona posseses is that you fail to account the natural flow of the game. Any good breaker will seem overpowered if you begin your calc with a positive nature, +1 boost and 10 different moves + tera types. If your gameplan is to chip away at a check (sorry I called it a check, I should call it a "check assuming volc doesn't run x move and x tera type at x number of boosts") like Primarina, be it through a complementary breaker like Weavile or Samu-H, guess what, your opponent also has a win con too, and he probably has a different breaker and is simultaneously trying to execute his gameplan. Maybe he is running rocks and is forcing progress with knock offs which Volc can't afford to catch, maybe he is using your weavile as an entry turn to start setting up with his Tera Fire Zamazenta. Maybe you don't have any other defensive counterplay than to try and burn the opposing banded pult on a turn he clicks uturn, and instead catch dragon darts to your face. Or worse still, he has a better defensive answer to Samurott/Weavile like Skarmory, and runs HDBS on Primarina to ensure longevity.

It is so easy to look at one mon in a vaccum and call it overbearing when you assume it is going to be better positioned to set up and is carrying the right tools for that particular matchup. The truth of the matter is, positioning better than your opponent gives you an advantage, period. That isn't unique to Volcarona, Roaring Moon or any other set up sweeper.

 

[Bold School]

Yes, you can cook up a tera type and a set that can any breaker can run to circumvent any of these so called "answers" that I mentioned above, but as I have mentioned earlier, that isn't unique to Volcarona but is merely the nature of the metagame. If you are so intent on building purely from a defensive perspective, and expect to have solid checks to every breaker in this metagame, you will indeed be disappointed. Banning Volcarona and expecting that to lead to your "ideal" metagame where balance and bulky offense plays a central role is optimistic to fault, you are once again projecting your frustrations with the state of the metagame as a whole onto one single mon which hasn't even proven to be the problem.

You have a lot of assumptions here. I primarily play balance and more offensive teams. Rarely do I build purely from a defensive standpoint or play bulky offense myself. Every playstyle should be viable. It's way too easy this gen to just lose in the builder rather than games be decided by skill in match. Volc is arguably the biggest matchup fish offender there is.

As for your assumption that I think a Volc ban will fix the meta, it's not even top 2 for me. But that isn't the point. We have a threat saturated meta. I don't know if banning Volcarona would completely fix the current meta. But that never was the point in the first place. It's that it would be a step in the right direction. If not Volc, then we need to ban something besides Arch sometime. Likely multiple bans. The issue is nobody can agree on what. What are left after Arch are all borderline threats or at least mostly seen that way. Any one can possibly be justified in a vacuum, but you can't judge it in a vacuum. You have to judge it within the current meta.

As far as Volc's brokenness specifically goes, this is your opinion that it isn't. The thing was already quick banned before. I personally think it is too much in a Tera metagame. I'd be curious to know what you would blame the current meta on instead. We do have multiple options to fix the meta besides banning Volc. But I would have little confidence the community could come together and actually do that, whatever it is, since we can't seem to get a proper consensus on what to do as a community. Even more so if the Volc suspect results in no ban.

As for why I think banning Volcarona would be helpful, well the first bit is threat saturation. I would take a ban on any of the main borderline threats since DLC 2 besides Raging Bolt and be relatively happy with that. However, Volc has climbed in importance for me as this metagame has gone on due to the way it abuses Tera and RNG. It would also take a lot of pressure off the builder to take away the main speed boosting special setup sweeper from a tier with a lot more physical threats. Then the borderline special threats like Kyurem and Bolt mostly only need to be checked from a wallbreaking perspective plus the priority for Bolt. You are then less worried about boosted speed tiers and outright sweeping on the special side. Another bonus is a potential increased ease in running Grass mons, making checking things like Wellspring and Bolt easier on the builder. Although, that last thing is pure theorymon and we do have many fire types.

 

[PragaSV]

You have a lot of assumptions here. I primarily play balance and more offensive teams. Rarely do I build purely from a defensive standpoint or play bulky offense myself. Every playstyle should be viable. It's way too easy this gen to just lose in the builder rather than games be decided by skill in match. Volc is arguably the biggest matchup fish offender there is.

As for your assumption that I think a Volc ban will fix the meta, it's not even top 2 for me. But that isn't the point. We have a threat saturated meta. I don't know if banning Volcarona would completely fix the current meta. But that never was the point in the first place. It's that it would be a step in the right direction. If not Volc, then we need to ban something besides Arch sometime. Likely multiple bans. The issue is nobody can agree on what. What are left after Arch are all borderline threats or at least mostly seen that way. Any one can possibly be justified in a vacuum, but you can't judge it in a vacuum. You have to judge it within the current meta.

As far as Volc's brokenness specifically goes, this is your opinion that it isn't. The thing was already quick banned before. I personally think it is too much in a Tera metagame. I'd be curious to know what you would blame the current meta on instead. We do have multiple options to fix the meta besides banning Volc. But I would have little confidence the community could come together and actually do that, whatever it is, since we can't seem to get a proper consensus on what to do as a community. Even more so if the Volc suspect results in no ban.

As for why I think banning Volcarona would be helpful, well the first bit is threat saturation. I would take a ban on any of the main borderline threats since DLC 2 besides Raging Bolt and be relatively happy with that. However, Volc has climbed in importance for me as this metagame has gone on due to the way it abuses Tera and RNG. It would also take a lot of pressure off the builder to take away the main speed boosting special setup sweeper from a tier with a lot more physical threats. Then the borderline special threats like Kyurem and Bolt mostly only need to be checked from a wallbreaking perspective plus the priority for Bolt. You are then less worried about boosted speed tiers and outright sweeping on the special side. Another bonus is a potential increased ease in running Grass mons, making checking things like Wellspring and Bolt easier on the builder. Although, that last thing is pure theorymon and we do have many fire types.

You use phrases like "Fix the Current Meta" or "Blame the Current Meta" clearly indicating your displeasure in the current state, and that is your opinion. I myself like the meta rn, find certain mons more overbearing than others but none to an extent of being ban-worthy yet, but overall do not believe a drastic change is required as the meta will continue to develop. I believe threat saturation has been greatly exaggerated, people are still innovating and using new underused options like Hoopa-U and Cresselia with consistent results. Team structures are varied, and every playstyle is still viable, even BO and Balance. If you think Volcarona being banned would help change the meta for better, that is valid and possibly even true, but I don't think that is sufficient reason to vote for a ban if the mon itself isn't broken.

 

[Alternator]

villain arc

i swear half of these posts are incredibly surface level and now ill repeat myself from the kyurem thread, don't address the issue the elephant the room but the headache of covering volcarona in builder. as mentioned before volcarona is a very pick your poison pokemon which works for and agaisnt it, on one hand you have the ability to get past particular checks you might come across, on the other you are "deadweight" vs another. for example, grass tera can get past garg but not skeledirge etc...

the issue is, when building a team you don't know what kind of volcarona you are going to face whether that be in a tour game and more so ladder. this leads to stacking checks to a insane degree. stacking checks isnt anything new in pokemon in general but dude, of course you're "not having troubles" when you're running fucking tera fire gambit + shock toxic gking + dnite lol. its an insane level of over compensation that is just dumb.

also saying that volcarona legitimately feels like deadweight just shows a lack of understanding with team building. volcarona defensively covers a ton without needing to qd and is incredibly valuable regardless of its actual performance. i seriously doubt even good players who do not want volc banned will ever tell you volcarona is a deadweight pokemon lol. stall isnt going to have this issue because of blissey and stacking unaware but outside of that you do have to bend over backwards a lot. just because the mon isnt autowinning vs your team with 4 soft checks doesn't really mean squat. tour games can be especially annoying when you can prep for a singular game, allowing you to be more outlandish. sub tera ghost, steel, bug are legitimate sets that can auto troll wins into if you are so hyperfocused on the idea that "volc isnt broken because it doesnt auto win etc...", it quite literally just has too many sets which leads to dumb overcompensation which effects the quality of the tier.

it seems to be a trend where we bitch about the tier but then are like "but a few bans will lead us in the right direction", where is that direction or the intuitive to make the tier better? i only know a handful of people who actually like the tier in its current state and while i respect them as friends and players its just absurd that the community chases its own tail on the problems in front of us. fearmongering about valiant and enam being better was already shut down by finch but i just want to go back to calling that stupid since people don't seem to get the point. we had two metas were volc was banned and neither was banworthy, good yes, but not as close to broken as some of the things we've even voted do not ban on. things do not improve by doing nothing, all that will happen is the cycle of which pokemon fall in and out of favor at any given time, which is not improving the tier at all.

No matter how true "It causes pressure in the builder," may be, most players cannot build worth a hot damn. Without specific examples, it's just not a compelling argument because the average player literally does not know what it means.

"Sure, (Insert Suspect Test Mon Here) requires multiple checks, but they're good mons anyway, and so does (Insert Former Suspect Test Mon Here), which didn't get banned. What makes (Insert Suspect Test Mon Here) different?"

I'm not saying that's a good argument, but for a player whose skill doesn't extend to team building, it's an honest one.

 

[AK]

Below quote perfectly deconstructs the cental argument of your post, in fact certain tera types like steel have been missed out which you have considered in your post lmao. And this isn't unique to Volcarona either. 4MSS for some reason just flies over every Pro-Ban argument's head and is dismissed as trivial, but it is indeed a real thing. So is the opportunity cost of tera.

4MSS doesn't fly over anyone's head, everyone is aware that it can't run every single move in it's movepool at the same time, but you have to respect the simple fact that it can have all these options and thus makes revenge killing/checking inconsistent which is what all of us believe to be a non healthy component to our metagame. Unless you wanna argue that Volcarona is inflexible like some other DNB'er did earlier in this thread which is one of the most blatant lies i've read, that it doesn't have many options and thus easy to revenge kill then that argument is not valid, but spoiler, that is not the case. I'm not going to adress any "just scout" argument because that is extremely situational and you don't always have the luxury to do that.

Another problem I have with your calcs and reasoning of checks lacking the same longevity that Volcarona posseses is that you fail to account the natural flow of the game. Any good breaker will seem overpowered if you begin your calc with a positive nature, +1 boost and 10 different moves + tera types.

I don't think the calcs he posted are in bad faith, obviously if you wanna highlight Volcarona you need to take into account the fact that it will set up, and yes, it is that easy. All these calcs match the eye test with my experience on playing the game, these are real situations that will happen so I don't see how it's dishonest or a problem. Maybe the fact that you yourself call Volcarona overpowered in these calcs has something to do with the fact...that it is overpowered and you've admitted to it there.

It is so easy to look at one mon in a vaccum and call it overbearing when you assume it is going to be better positioned to set up and is carrying the right tools for that particular matchup. The truth of the matter is, positioning better than your opponent gives you an advantage, period. That isn't unique to Volcarona, Roaring Moon or any other set up sweeper.

...Except it literally is. Unlike "any other set up sweeper" Volcarona does not require better positionning than your opponent simply because unlike them it has access to the most broken move in the game in Quiver Dance. No other set up sweeper is able to invalidate at the same time faster revenge killing and special revenge killing while boosting SpA at the same time, it's just not the case and Volcarona certainly doesn't have the set up cost that any other set up sweeper have like Roaring Moon (since that's the one you mentionned) at all, it's night and day honestly and comparing them is silly and far from the truth.

--

I wanted to make a longer regarding moth but honestly Baloor/Finch/Trosko/Storm Zone have all made very good posts that cover most of the stuff I wanted to talk about so I encourage everyone to read these instead. Ban the Moth.

 

[COALLA]

Okay after the homie Vkhss reached out I figured it was time to hop in and really read what everyone has to say on this.

Initially I was pretty firm in the DnB camp as I run stall probably half my games on ladder and the rest of my teams i have made it a point to not get my grave Quiver Danced on by Volc, so i usually fair pretty well vs it.

But After reading SZ’s and Finch’s posts earlier in this thread, they made great points in the Ban camp that made me think “hmm, i need to give this some more thought.”

There isn’t much I can say that those 2 haven’t already pointed out and my guy awyp made a lot of great points too.

Anyway here is my 2 cents as well as a few examples from experience that really highlight the unhealthy aspects of this mon and why it should be banned.

1) It has multiple tools in it’s arsenal that are controversial and considered broken by many on their own. QD boosting 3 stats in a single turn as well as flame body to cripple mons that could exploit it’s frailty on the physical side are already insane tools, slap them on a mon with 550BST that is already well min-maxed and resists metagame staples and it can get crazy.

2) TERA. There are a lot of mons that are made much worse to deal with due to this mechanic still not being touched somehow, but Volc hands down uses this mechanic to a level none of the others do because of the sheer unpredictability. Gambit is a huge exploiter of this mechanic, but it is almost guaranteed it is Dark/fight/fly/fairy/fire. Gambit is the next most extreme example in my opinion after volc so it’s good to compare it to. If you keep its checks healthy even tera dark at 5 fallen won’t beat tusk/val and can get burnt if it’s not lum. Flying/fairy with fairy blast smokes tusk but lacks crucial steel coverage or kowtow and cant do much in the midgame as it relies on these teras to win in the endgame vs tusk and if they’ve knocked lefties or burned you while keeping another check alive outside tusk its still not an auto-win. Fire is strong and avoids the crucial burns, but again this still gets brutalized by its main check (tusk) and loses to a lot of other checks like a lando T or dondozo. Now Volc on the orherhand, through the sheer power of quiver dance, if it gets in front of the check it wants and teras it gets to a level of power that it can’t lose the game at unless you dedicate 2-4 mons and maybe your own tera to take it down. And here is the insanely long list of teras it can viably run: Dragon/Grass/Fairy/Steel/Water/Ground/Flying/Dark/GHOST even. This list is a lot longer than even the list gambit runs and all the other tera abusers run 2-4 types max and that's it. If Volc gets in front of a mon your opp NEEDS to keep healthy but can’t touch volc then you get a free +1 to 3 stats and they go to their “volcarona check.” if you decided in your builder to run tera steel or ghost and they went dnite you just won the game or crippled their team in the worst case scenario. If they went clodsire and you chose to run tera ground tera blast with sub you dust the clod and then crush their team. And the list goes on and on. The point is that with 1billion possible teras you can straight nullify checks and win games wheras even an abuser like gambit, though powerful, doesnt usually win games off the rip do to using one of its 5 teras.

3) Utility options. Its one thing if this mon is just an unpredictable offensive juggernaught like an iron valiant, darkrai, or deo-s, but it also gets access to freaking morning sun for reliable recovery and will-o wisp to burn on the switch or give a greater chance to burn than just flame body. with these options volc can run a bulkier spread that can actually cruise past blissey/dragonite without even using tera. How is it fair that a mon that CAN apply as much offensive pressure as volc can also be allowed these tools to allow it to again nullify and beat it’s checks? The unpredictability and versatility to this mon with tera is insane.

I know I’ve droned on and have likely done a pour job articulating to this point cuz my thoughts are everywhere right now and I hate writing, but here is why some would say (including me just this morning) that volc shouldn't be banned.

1) Defensive utility. Volc offers a lot of defensive utility and can check insanely busted mons like Gholdengo, Kyurem, and Kingambit, along with a lot of the strong fairies and Rillaboom’s disgusting self. This is the strongest point to keeping Volc in the tier and is honestly a very good reason, BUT it’s grounded in what has been pointed out to me to be fundamentally flawed thinking. Broken checks broken is not a good line of thought. In a perfect world, we remove broken mon, in this case volc, and the community then sees how disgustingly busted the other mons are without it and we deal with those mons accordingly. It is a slower process as you then have to deal with those other brokens individually, but in a perfect world we have a shot to arrive at a metagame that is healthy and has little to no broken cheesy things going on (this is a pipe dream, but if we even get 80% there that’s great). The alternative is keep brokens to check brokens and stay at the current place we are which is a metagame with a ton of horrifying threats that packs too much variance and unpredictability. We banned sleep, we all complain about static/flame body, we all hate losing a mu at preview once tera is revealed and you realize there was nothing you could have done that game to win from turn 1. My point is that wild unpredictability and losing to things we can’t control STINKS and we should attempt to limit that as much as possible. Volc introduces a ton of unpredictability and is therefore part of the problem. I fear, GREATLY, what gholdengo and kyurem will do without it, but hopefully the playerbase can deal with them properly next time around.

2) MU fish that does nothing when it doesn’t get the mu. This is true that Volc being the fish that it is can, and often does, find itself in a game where it’s impact can be very little. The thing is, even in these games the fact that your opp doesn’t know what it is can give you openings for aggressive doubles and bliffs that can still be a benefit and at the end of the day its still a mon with a solid speed tier and high base spatk that worst case can give important chip, it’s never really a “do-nothing” mon. And for every 5 of these games where it isn’t the juggernaut it can be, there is that one important SPL or SmogTour game where it hits it’s mu and the opp has little-to-no chance of winning from preview, even if they play well and come what they thought was prepared.

After all that rattling on i’d like to share one personal experience that highlighted to me the issue with volc. In my one OUPL game I played i put together a pretty solid 6 that did very well for me on ladder and in testing and i felt confident in bringing the team. Upon testing with the GOAT awyp he noticed a pretty glaring weakness to volcarona. He proceeded to bring 3 teams with different compositions and different teras for volc and murdered me off the rip. I then made a ton of set adjustments and changes on the team to where i was finally confident i could handle volcarona and not lose turn 1 only to be left with a team that, though solid, was much more shaky and less consistent vs other things. It doomed me in my OUPL game and highlights to me the effect volc has in the teambuilder. You can’t just bring 1 or 2 checks and play well. To guarantee that mon doesnt beat you takes 3-4 mons and/or some goofy techs that otherwise are objectively inferior.

I started the suspect firmly in the do not ban camp, i got to place this morning where i was do not ban, but persuadable, and after really analyzing it and putting biases aside and looking at the whole picture I am now firmly in the BAN camp. I do not want this metagame to continue as it has and i want it to improve and i feel this is a step in the right direction IF EVERYONE WAKES UP AND ADDRESSES KYUREM/GHOLDENGO afterword. The alternative is we can all become stall lords and volarona will be an issue 0% of the time lol.

Anyway…there is my poorly written, drawn-out way of addressing this issue and i appreciate any feedback that comes hereafter. You all rock, ban camp or do not ban camp, and I’d like to hear more from both sides. Lets make this metagame better!

 

[658Greninja]

Below quote perfectly deconstructs the cental argument of your post, in fact certain tera types like steel have been missed out which you have considered in your post lmao. And this isn't unique to Volcarona either. 4MSS for some reason just flies over every Pro-Ban argument's head and is dismissed as trivial, but it is indeed a real thing. So is the opportunity cost of tera.

Yes, there is a 4MSS with Volc and yes, Terastilizing Volc is an opportunity cost like with anything, but this isn’t the end-all argument you think it is because

You can never tell the set or moves its running on team preview and checking Volc is dependent on the Tera Type. If you try to scout it, either you risk losing a Poke or it sweeps the team. So Volc is always gonna have an advantage even if the Tera type doesn’t sweep the whole team. Worst case scenario, Volc punches a big hole on the team.

Compare this to other sweepers like Moon, Bolt, Gambit, or Valiant.

Moon is gonna be running the same set. Tera Flying/Ghost with Knock, Acro, and EQ/Brick/Taunt. So this can be handled consistently by proper checks or team compositions like Lando + Rbolt or physd Gliscor + Gambit. It’s also easier to limit as Booster is a one-time boost and without it, Moon’s ability to sweep becomes worse.

CM Bolt can be stopped with Encore or faster threats that are immune or resistant to Thunderclap like Tusk because Bolt has no way to increase its speed, unlike Volc. Bolt is mostly gonna be Tera Fairy or Flying, and there’s very few surprises when it comes into the field. A majority of the time it’s gonna be CM, Thunder Clap, and STABs.

Like Bolt, Gambit is a bulky setup sweeper with priority. It can be stopped with Encore as well. The Teras it can use are more varied than Bolt, but most of the counterplay remains the same. It even has reliable checks regardless of Tera like Roar Zama, BU Tusk, Taunt Helmet Lando (soft-check), Encore, and Dozo. Again, compare this to Volc who only has two hard checks in Clod/Blissey who only fit on Stall or Fat.

Valiant is similar to Volc in that you don’t know the set in team preview. It can either be physical, special, or mixed, but Val is much frailer, has less longevity, and ofc only has a one-time speed boost. It gets less opportunities to come in and is easier to pick off with priority.

Neither of them have the mix of Volc’s bulk, longevity, versatility, and unpredictability.

Because Volc is impossible to read in team preview, your response to Volc is gonna dictate the match. Lets look at this replay again.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-742038?p2

Xrn’s response to Volcarona here was Roaring Moon, which by all accounts is a good play since Tera Flying Moon can tank any +1 hit from Volc and threaten an OHKO back. Moon is gonna take this game and…oh wait it was Tera Steel Wisp, never fucking mind. In retrospect, Xrn could’ve preserved the Primarina, but it could’ve been Giga Drain, and Tera Flying Moon seemed to the more consistent answer. Even if Xrn knew it was Tera Steel Wisp, the Primarina was Custap which would get worn down by the spikes Ting-Lu was setting. Again, it points to both Volc being unpredictable asf and easy to build around which was the point SZ made about it.

Another problem I have with your calcs and reasoning of checks lacking the same longevity that Volcarona posseses is that you fail to account the natural flow of the game. Any good breaker will seem overpowered if you begin your calc with a positive nature, +1 boost and 10 different moves + tera types. If your gameplan is to chip away at a check (sorry I called it a check, I should call it a "check assuming volc doesn't run x move and x tera type at x number of boosts") like Primarina, be it through a complementary breaker like Weavile or Samu-H, guess what, your opponent also has a win con too, and he probably has a different breaker and is simultaneously trying to execute his gameplan. Maybe he is running rocks and is forcing progress with knock offs which Volc can't afford to catch, maybe he is using your weavile as an entry turn to start setting up with his Tera Fire Zamazenta. Maybe you don't have any other defensive counterplay than to try and burn the opposing banded pult on a turn he clicks uturn, and instead catch dragon darts to your face. Or worse still, he has a better defensive answer to Samurott/Weavile like Skarmory, and runs HDBS on Primarina to ensure longevity.

I mentioned the calcs because Modest is the most common Volc on the 1825+ ladder, and Volc is perfectly capable of getting a +1 or even +2 boost cause of that aforementioned defensive profile.

Yes, the opponent is gonna have their own win condition, but they also have to make sure Volc doesn’t sweep, and Volcarona is very good at controlling the pace that way. Even with the example you gave with Tera Fire Zama, any good team built to support Volc + Samu/Weav is gonna have something for a Tera Fire Zama like Prima, Hatt, or a Gholdengo (good with Samu anyways). It also doesn’t matter if Prima is holding Boots. It risks getting Knock’d or it gets chipped anyways with repeated hits due to no recovery.

(also skarm is shit and free entry for volc unless you run bb which loses to samu/weav)

 

[Tio Chico]

Okay, I've always been a casual player, sometimes dependent on google translate, but this "Defensive Utility" argument is being used by the DnB side, seriously?
While it has an absurd sweep potential and we deal with Schrödinger's Moth both in teambuild and in preview and play, does it still provide defensive qualities? Wouldn't that be an extra factor to consider this bug out of the curve?
That is, you need to carry priority, offensive checks, defensive responses to a wide range of sets and Tera-types, while it is still used to defensively "answer" other threats. For me, this makes Volcarona even more ban-worthy than we imagined at the beginning of the suspect.
If all this doesn't throw Volcarona against the wall I don't even know what else to say.

 

[PragaSV]

Yes, there is a 4MSS with Volc and yes, Terastilizing Volc is an opportunity cost like with anything, but this isn’t the end-all argument you think it is because

You can never tell the set or moves its running on team preview and checking Volc is dependent on the Tera Type. If you try to scout it, either you risk losing a Poke or it sweeps the team. So Volc is always gonna have an advantage even if the Tera type doesn’t sweep the whole team. Worst case scenario, Volc punches a big hole on the team.

Compare this to other sweepers like Moon, Bolt, Gambit, or Valiant.

Moon is gonna be running the same set. Tera Flying/Ghost with Knock, Acro, and EQ/Brick/Taunt. So this can be handled consistently by proper checks or team compositions like Lando + Rbolt or physd Gliscor + Gambit. It’s also easier to limit as Booster is a one-time boost and without it, Moon’s ability to sweep becomes worse.

CM Bolt can be stopped with Encore or faster threats that are immune or resistant to Thunderclap like Tusk because Bolt has no way to increase its speed, unlike Volc. Bolt is mostly gonna be Tera Fairy or Flying, and there’s very few surprises when it comes into the field. A majority of the time it’s gonna be CM, Thunder Clap, and STABs.

Like Bolt, Gambit is a bulky setup sweeper with priority. It can be stopped with Encore as well. The Teras it can use are more varied than Bolt, but most of the counterplay remains the same. It even has reliable checks regardless of Tera like Roar Zama, BU Tusk, Taunt Helmet Lando (soft-check), Encore, and Dozo. Again, compare this to Volc who only has two hard checks in Clod/Blissey who only fit on Stall or Fat.

Valiant is similar to Volc in that you don’t know the set in team preview. It can either be physical, special, or mixed, but Val is much frailer, has less longevity, and ofc only has a one-time speed boost. It gets less opportunities to come in and is easier to pick off with priority.

Neither of them have the mix of Volc’s bulk, longevity, versatility, and unpredictability.

Because Volc is impossible to read in team preview, your response to Volc is gonna dictate the match. Lets look at this replay again.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-742038?p2

Xrn’s response to Volcarona here was Roaring Moon, which by all accounts is a good play since Tera Flying Moon can tank any +1 hit from Volc and threaten an OHKO back. Moon is gonna take this game and…oh wait it was Tera Steel Wisp, never fucking mind. In retrospect, Xrn could’ve preserved the Primarina, but it could’ve been Giga Drain, and Tera Flying Moon seemed to the more consistent answer. Even if Xrn knew it was Tera Steel Wisp, the Primarina was Custap which would get worn down by the spikes Ting-Lu was setting. Again, it points to both Volc being unpredictable asf and easy to build around which was the point SZ made about it.



I mentioned the calcs because Modest is the most common Volc on the 1825+ ladder, and Volc is perfectly capable of getting a +1 or even +2 boost cause of that aforementioned defensive profile.

Yes, the opponent is gonna have their own win condition, but they also have to make sure Volc doesn’t sweep, and Volcarona is very good at controlling the pace that way. Even with the example you gave with Tera Fire Zama, any good team built to support Volc + Samu/Weav is gonna have something for a Tera Fire Zama like Prima, Hatt, or a Gholdengo (good with Samu anyways). It also doesn’t matter if Prima is holding Boots. It risks getting Knock’d or it gets chipped anyways with repeated hits due to no recovery.

(also skarm is shit and free entry for volc unless you run bb which loses to samu/weav)

In response to that particular replay, please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Xrn's team weak to Volcarona in general from the get go? Scizor+Weavile core doubly weak to burns and fire, offensively only Roaring Moon provides an answer, and Custap offensive primarina is hardly reliable enough to act as a check to Volcarona especially in a team weak to it. I don't believe this game is representational on a larger scale as last mon moth managed to sweep against a team weak to it, though zioziotrip made some great plays and used his timely tera to great effect.

I do admit the unpredictability and versatility of Volcarona is greater than I gave it credit for, and might even be the most varied mon in OU in terms of sets and tera types. That being said, I personally don't find myself overwhelmed by its presence, perhaps its the check-heavy cores that I often run or just favourable matchups in general, so this isn't an objective opinion.

4MSS definitely isn't the end all argument for Rona's DNB Case, but I do believe it isn't given enough credit that it deserves, since multiple hypotheticals brought up in Ban arguments always seem to try to account for every possible set and type. Like I said, over the course of multiple games, if your goal is to never lose to any variant of Volcarona at all costs, I can definitely understand the nightmare that it is to build against sans Clodsire. But over a larger sample size against varied structures, I don't find it as overbearing as it is made to seem. We're probably splitting hairs and much relies on personal preference on the kind of playstyle and flexibility you like to build against. Cheers.

 

[veti]

got reqs so I feel qualified to give my opinion now.

Volcarona should be banned, its a dumb mu fish/hax mon that strains the builder, we've experienced volcless metas before so its proven valiant/enam will not be broken at all, just baseless fearmongering. Outside of stall / fat balance or bo with av/boots prima+psyshock gking there really is no team thats volcproof, even stuff like tera cbnite/tera rmoon still get flame bodied and effectively eliminated, which is awful if you expend tera to beat volcarona and immediately ur terad mon is now useless.

I'd like to turn around one of the most common dnb arguments being its defensive utility, the argument not only goes against tiering policy but is the reason volc is broken. Said defensive utility allows it to gain the free turns to set up that make it broken, even if it lacks the sheer power of other offensive threats.

 

[Magcargo]

I will be voting BAN, though this is moreso out of circumstance rather than an explicit desire to.

Unlike several other players who have posted here, I generally agree with all the DNB arguements (particularly from Ctann ). As a ladder player, I generally feel that Volcarona doesn't feel entirely restrictive to deal with in the builder compared to certain other threats. It may have 14+ possible set variants that are roughly equal in viablity, but I find that most checks like Slowking-Galar, Moltres, and Clodsire (which I'm using mostly irrespective of Volc aside from Moltres) are able to deal with roughly 10 of the 14 variants, with other checks Tera Fire Meow, Tera Fire Kingambit, and Tera Fire Samurott able to check a handful of other variants in the pinch. I typically don't suffer the consequences from not running checks to some of the rarer variants because I don't face them. Furthermore, many of Volcarona's Tera types aren't really beneficial to it defensively. Types like Rock lack any sort of utility outside of coverage and Dragon will make Volcarona weak to the stuff it is suppose to be checking like Valiant and Enamorus. If Volcarona is forced out after the initial setup oppurtunity, it typically will be difficult to get another chance. Another thing worth noting is that struggling against a regen mon like GKing is infinitely worse than struggling against Dozo, since the regen mon will be gaining health for free. If Volcarona gets Toxic'd, its over, so you have to make consistent doubles to Gambit or whatever in order to get the advantage vs Gking & not let the opponent get momentum. Tera Steel and Tera Ground do remedy this and I think this touches more on a particular point - Volcarona's presence in a ladder format vs a tournament setting. In tournaments, I believe that Volcarona's ability to run 14+ viable sets and Tera-types that are equally viable to be problematic, since you can counterpick based on what you expect the opponent to bring. Yes, it does thud harder than Roaring Moon or Kingambit when things don't go its way, but when Volcarona gets its groove going, it can feel like there isn't any possible avenue of counterplay besides getting lucky. The main issue is that getting turns wrong against Volc is a lot more lethal than other sweepers, since avenues of counterplay become increasingly impossible to execute. Hence, I do believe it is far more problematic for tournaments than for ladder.

Aside from this, I feel that the metagame is in dire need of change. There are too many threats to account for and covering them all feels impossible to do. It feels extremely easy to autolose on preview to various mons, whether it be Primarina, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Darkrai, Waterpon, Gliscor, or Gouging Fire. While Volcarona can help combat this threat saturation to an extent, I find it ends up being another body to check that stretches our already weary defensive Pokemon like Galarian Slowking, Clodsire, or Ting-Lu too thin. Against bulky offense, the avenues for checking it become even more slim. Many Lando-T squads I've seen have a tendancy to get 6-0'd by Volcarona, with Tera Fire Kingambit as their sole check (which isn't even reliable). Running other mons like Dragonite with Lando-T leads to weaknesses to other commonly used mons like Kyurem or Weavile. With Gouging Fire staying and many top players I've talked to saying they'll vote DNB on Ogerpon-W, this is very likely the best chance for ANY change to occur in this metagame short of a possible Tera retest. I personally would have preferred Tera Blast to be banned (especially given the move's unhealthy impact on lower tiers) but that ship has sailed.

I feel that Volcarona very likely would have been healthy (ladder-wise at least) in a metagame saturated with less threats or without Tera Blast, but as is, I find it to contribute to the problem of threat saturation too heavily. With other bans being unlikely to occur, I believe this is a chance for more notable change to occur in our metagame, and more consistent teams to be built rather than the MU fishing nightmare that it is currently.

 

[Sylveon used calm mind]

My reasons for not voting ban on volcarona:

I think volcarona needs too much support to instantly sweep an opposing team, the argument that with the right set it could beat blissey is true but pretty much every special attacker can beat blissey with the right set

Even after a qd ist still unable to outspeed a lot of the metagame that either runs booster energy or choice scarf and its still weak to priority like espeed and sucker punch

+ being forced to run heavy duty boots is pretty tough cause ur limited in your item choice

with tera ground things like dnite, blissey and primarina beat you, ur not becoming an unstoppable sweeper after 1 qd cause you can still be easily revenged

without bug buzz roaring moon cooks you
and gambit still revenging you even after u got +1 cause gambit can still tera and pack volc up with either +2 sucker punch or neutral kowtow cleave into sucker

also encore is pretty relevant on thing like dnite and valiant


Volcarona is not broken at all, its a good special attacking sweeper but has enough counterplay, and its definitely not restricting team building, sure you can't just have a team that gets cooked by volc after 1qd but you can argue the same for any other mon, take zamazenta for example, you can't just have a team with 5 physical attackers and a pult with will o wisp to check zamazenta cause then u insta lose to tera fire zama, doesn't mean you're restricting team building with that, you just need to build a team that has enough counterplay to relevant meta threads

regarding the argument that volcarona can literally sweep every team with the right tera: you can say the same thing bout a lot of other mons in the metagame: iron valiant, great tusk, roaring moon, gambit, zama - they can all 6-0 certain teams with the right tera and the right set, if you're loading tera ghost volcarona for example you could sweep a team that has skeeldirge + dnite as a counter to volc but then you dont have tera ground for other matchups

 

[Ehmcee]

I plan on voting ban, Volcarona's an especially oppressive threat in the current metagame, and is currently the most egregious abuser of Tera.

We see this mainly in part to the combination of Quiver Dance + Tera Blast. Volcarona is able to set itself up to win the game, and you typically have to just guess what tera type it is if you hope to check it.

The sheer amount of different options Volcarona can run is frankly absurd, Water, Ground, Dragon, Fairy, Grass and Steel are all viable tera options with widely different counter play. Additionally, the proper counter play to volcarona alters greatly depending on it's moves. We've seen Will-o-Wisp, Morning Sun and Substitute as status options which all widely change how to check Volcarona, not to mention the sleue of coverage it gets with Fiery Dance / Flamethrower, Bug Buzz, Giga Drain and whatever Tera Blast it chooses.

I think the degree with which Volcarona can alter itself to beat it's checks is frankly unreasonable, and leads to unhealthy guessing games towards finding out Volcarona's Tera Type and Moveset, usually ending up in knowing that information too late to stop a Volc sweep.