np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 14 - Hazy Shade of Winter

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So I'm going to be trying for reqs for the first time, mostly on one principle: Kyurem kinda does everything Baxcalibur does and then some. If Baxcalibur is a broken mon, a mon that basically does the exact same thing and then 4 other things is also probably broken.

I'm open to my mind being changed over the course of the suspect. But given historical precedent and what traditionally makes a mon too much, Kyurem fits the bill. Set variety, pressure on teambuilding, consistently useful to outright oppressive in matches, and random hax? Yeah, this mon has the recipe.

Also he's just kinda weird-lookin. Guy only has half a face. We gotta stop letting Iron Valiant moonblast him so much, let's give him a vacation.
Ok, I'm sorry but Baxcalibur was 20x more broken than Kyurem and it's not even close. That thing was an absolute monster under snow to levels that Kyurem can only dream of, and while I do believe that Kyurem should be banned from the tier, this argument makes no sense.
 
Ok, I'm sorry but Baxcalibur was 20x more broken than Kyurem and it's not even close. That thing was an absolute monster under snow to levels that Kyurem can only dream of, and while I do believe that Kyurem should be banned from the tier, this argument makes no sense.
…now that i think about it, have we even seriously tried kyurem with veil support? atales hasn't really been what i'd call good since before kyurem showed up, and it caught a bit of a stray from sleep moves clause, but i reckon if you take something that's already banworthy and put it behind snow and veil, with the capability to sling around accurate blizzards, it can't hurt, can it?
 
…now that i think about it, have we even seriously tried kyurem with veil support? atales hasn't really been what i'd call good since before kyurem showed up, and it caught a bit of a stray from sleep moves clause, but i reckon if you take something that's already banworthy and put it behind snow and veil, with the capability to sling around accurate blizzards, it can't hurt, can it?
Feels like you would get a Baxcalibur at home.
You would want to run Physical set since there is no good Snow abuser out there that is physical (I miss Arctozolt). Then, it just feels like a Bax at home.
If you want to run Blizzard Kyurem, just run Glowking. It can pivot into Kyurem safely and set up snow for it to click Blizzard. Longer Snow turn doesn't mean much if your blizzard either kills something or makes no damage into something that Kyurem doesn't want to deal with.
 
In all of Kyurem's impossible to cover set diversity, there 3 moves that are part of its dark triad if you will: Freeze Dry, Earth Power, and Dragon Dance.

Without even 1 of those 3 moves, the things it could pull off would be much less. And therefore, the counterplay would become at least somewhat more manageable. But most of this has already been covered. What I feel has not been covered as much is just how much of an inherent problem DD is in a Tera metagame. But not just DD. Quiver Dance on Volc (or really anything that isn't like a 300 or 400 base stat range Bug) is also just broken in a Tera meta. Why? It boosts speed and power in set up one turn. I'll explain why this is just so problematic and I promise I'll bring this back to Kyurem.

It starts the one turn game flip. It's much more difficult to deny a free turn throughout the entire game, especially in a metagame where a Tera can often brute force you a free turn. A mon that never boosts speed can be more reliably RKed by offensive teams. We all understand that a mon that boosts speed and power becomes a lot more threatening. But the method to do so really matters.

Like I don't really have a problem with most BE speed mons, such as Valiant, Boulder, or Moth, that use a non-speed boosting setup move like Calm Mind, Swords Dance, or even Fiery Dance procs to get power. Why? Because this is a one entry thing. A single force out completely counters this temporary speed boost. Then there is double dance. A mon that uses one setup move for speed and another for power and maybe defense needs inherently more turns to do its thing. It's not a 1 turn swing. It's at least a 2 turn investment. You have more of a chance to react. Same with something like Tusk using Bulk Up and Rapid Spin. It's an inherently fairer situation.

However, what moves like Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance do is create the best potential for a 1 turn swing. While this is nothing new in of itself, it become far more potent with all the tools gen 9 gives offense. Power Creep, Tera, BE, etc. Many mons that would need like 2-4 setup moves to take a game now often only need 1 or 2. Tera allows you to mitigate a hit defensively and/or give you coverage you aren't supposed to have. Any pokemon that can increase their speed and power in a turn is going to be able to inherently use Tera Blast. But even if Tera Blast were to be banned at some point, defensive Tera, double STAB, and natural coverage moves are aspects many of these mons can exploit enough to still be potentially broken.

Look at the last 3 mons to be suspected. What do they have in common? DD or QD. Speed and power boosting setup moves. Volcarona and Gouging Fire had some of the highest votes for ban in their last suspects. Kyurem may or may not follow suit, but it's not a coincidence in this equation that Kyurem has viable DD sets. Before someone says it, no, I don't believe that every Dragon Dance mon is worthy of ban. But what it does do is push them a lot closer to the edge. Speed is the best stat in the game. Power boosts with all the potential for stacked multipliers in gen 9 can create much stronger attacks quicker. Combining these two aspects with a single setup turn is inherently cracked. I believe every DD mon that actually uses it in viable sets should be under a lot more inherent scrutiny, though this isn't the place to argue for that.

Kyurem's problem specifically is that it is a special attacker first that already has borderline broken wallbreaking ability. You often have to assume it's this first because this is where the immediate power and threat traditionally lies. DD then also turns it into a physical and mixed attacker. But this takes a setup turn. So you could theoretically switch in your DD set answer after the reveal if there weren't so darn many of them. Physical and mixed have entirely different counters before even getting into Tera Blast variants. A lot has been made of flavor of the season Sub/Tect sets, but one set a lot of folks aren't even mentioning is the evil PP stall with DD for speed boosts. Like I just listed off 4 archetypes of sets you'd have to differently account for just from that 1 move DD. For me, this is what pushes Kyurem over the edge more than anything else. If Kyurem was just a special attacker or non-speed boosting, I don't think I'd feel very strongly about it. But DD changes the entire dynamic of this mon almost singlehandedly.
 
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I understand all of you and I can see your points of view as well. I can understand why my opinion was slightly selfish of me to straight up clown SS for it's lack of fast pacing. I can see the reasoning behind why people want it banned. But I must ask what will become of Gliscor if we do ban Kyurem. (I am asking this purely as a doubt and not a new reason)
 
one of like three mons keeping our meta from devolving into gking lu/scor zap or alo plus gambit wincon jerk off contest similar to 2023 wcop snoozfest and there’s been precedent upon precedent showing us just how nasty defensive mons can be when centralizing the metagame (but we don’t ban defensive mons). Volc ban was already a mistake because last spl meta saw diversity and balance like never before seen but we wanted to get rid of volc for literally zero reason and then new threats emerged such as gouging fire (previously easily checked by dirge/dozo fats or offensively pressured by dragon volc) leading to its ban. Now we are seeing fewer and fewer checks to the fat balance styles while ho diversity hinges on like 3 flex slots. Guess what, volc used to be a kyurem check but we got rid of it because complainers can’t think 3 turns ahead and use a tera fire guy or just don’t switch around, and if flame body was an issue then how’s molt’s ridic usage in volcs absence not an issue all of a sudden? Let’s not try to ‘remedy’ mistakes with further mistakes, free gouging and free volc ideally but at the very least keep kyurem in ou so as not to obsolete the very few counters to scor, lu, alo, woger, samu among others and stop the further desecration of the ou metagame.

tldr: don’t fucking ban kyurem or prepare for extremely boring meta
 
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Gonna be fr with y’all, this fearmongering shit from DNB players like Magcargo Pais and CTC ain’t it. You are fine to have your opinions, but back it up with claims other than “if kyurem goes, gliscor becomes broken” and “the meta will become fat”.

First off, the meta has plenty of ways to break greedy fat builds without Kyurem. Waterpon is right there, as well as stuff like Knock Tusk, Specs Crown, AV Gking, Primarina, Roaring Moon, Gholdengo, Darkrai, SD Gliscor, Samu, Ursaluna, Hydrapple, Rockpon (super underrated mon, pls use), Hoopa-U, CM Tera Steel/Ghost/Ground Enam, etc. And can we let go of the fucking Zapluking argument already? It’s been a year already since that metagame, using it as a reason to not ban anything is overused and frankly ridiculous. Imo Gliscor is broken with or without Kyurem around, but it’s not like we don’t have very strong Waters and Ice types/moves running around to pressure kt.

I also find it funny that Espathra Dreaming uses Tera Ice usage as an argument to keep Kyurem, like its a good thing we’re using one of the most dogshit defensive Tera types just to respond to Kyurem. I’m a bit too busy with school to get reqs rn, but if I were to, I’d vote ban.

Kyurem has a billion different sets with varying counterplay, and is arguably more difficult to read than Gouging Fire for having the ability to run physical, special, or mixed. You pay Kyurem tax on ladder whenever you predict the wrong set, and while that can be true for other offensive threats in SV OU, none of them have the same combination of set diversity and immediate power like Kyurem does.

Sub-tect being imo the most broken set despite its reliance on keeping hazards off.

I piloted this team for the last suspect before moving on to HO.

https://pokepast.es/c90170b819bab76d

In games I’ve played, I witnessed Kyurem PP stall Slowking, Crown Tachyon, Zama and Corv Body Presses, and more. Kyurem imo can afford to invest in more bulk thus being harder to KO and let it Sub up on more stuff since most Gholds are bulky, and Samu/Tusk/Lando tend to not want to stay in on Kyurem.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2196502476-x0pdh8i6w9l7q8lfgdgl4edbg567sjbpw

Look at my opponent’s team. A Tera Fairy SpD Garg with ID, a Dragapult, and Iron Crown, yet Kyurem bullshits its way through via Tera. Is this not enough? Even if my opponent went for Tachyon turn 1, it would get PP stalled throughout a long drawn out game.

:sv/kyurem:
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 124 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power

Here’s a more optimized spread that avoids a 2HKO from offensive Cinderace’s Pyro Ball, lets you Sub up in front of Garg without burning Tera, 1v1s most Darkrais, can avoid an OHKO from Hex Pult’s Darts even after rocks, guarantees Sub stays up vs BP Corv after Tera, lives Primarina’s Moonblast and non-Specs Crown Tachyon at full, eats 2 Hurricanes from Zapdos, and more while still being as strong as max SpA Timid Kyurem.

It’s also not as difficult to support Kyurem in both bringing it in and keeping hazards off as people think. There’s a ton of strong pivots that pair excellently with Kyurem, Cinderace in particular being able to lure most of Kyurem’s victims and Court Change hazards away. Gking making Kyurem disgustingly bulky with Snow.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Kyurem in Snow: 312-368 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Kyurem in Snow: 260-308 (57.3 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Kyurem in Snow: 138-163 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

The support Kyurem needs is not hard to fit, and said suppoet enables it tremendously.

Banning Kyurem will not suddenly make the tier a snoozefest, Kyurem will just be replaced by other breakers like Hydrapple who has already shown to have an excellent Balance matchup and Darkrai who has a similar role to the strong breaker with Ice Beam.

Get blud outta here.
 
If you read better my post I don't necessary care about the meta leaning towards fat (SV has never been a tier for fat teams anyway lol), I think it just enables other wallbreakers (so offensive threats) to be better and eventually promotes some stupid interaction with some defensive threat in particular like zapdos/gliscor. I don't think banning Kyurem for moveset variance or other reasons stated is a good reason because there is no single kyurem set that can 6-0 every archetype and it's not impossible to punish kyurem. Every move you click with kyurem can actually have a drawback. As CTC said it's a situation similiar to Volcarona where people don't want to try to plan some turn ahead.

You mentioned Sub Kyurem to be a threat, but that mon is only good vs more defensive/balanced oriented teams, it fails hard to go vs more offensive builds that are shining again after OLT-ladder meta. I don't see why calcs you posted are necessary relevant since it's not necessary hard or impossible to punish a Galarking that want to set up the Chilly Reception, things usually are way more complex than that.

Post Scriptum: at the end of the day there is not an objective truth if a pokemon should stay or not, but it's totally fair that there are players like me, ctc or whoever wants kyurem to stay that we consider also the implications on the metagame in the case kyurem goes away.
 
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one of like three mons keeping our meta from devolving into gking lu/scor zap or alo plus gambit wincon jerk off contest similar to 2023 wcop snoozfest
uh… you do realize that glowking + ting-lu as a core also synergizes really well with kyurem, right? you yourself used a team featuring them to great success. i heavily doubt that banning kyurem is going to make them overwhelming, or bring zapdos back in a big way, or break alomomola, or even break gliscor (it's probably going to be a lot easier to cover in builder when we stop having to dedicate so many resources to covering kyurem)
and there’s been precedent upon precedent showing us just how nasty defensive mons can be when centralizing the metagame (but we don’t ban defensive mons).
we banned gliscor, remember? and i don't think there are many other precedents of a single defensive mon centralizing the meta that profoundly, aside from mega sableye at the end of oras (which also got banned), but if you have examples you're free to share them
Volc ban was already a mistake because last spl meta saw diversity and balance like never before seen but we wanted to get rid of volc for literally zero reason
volc was banned with a healthy 76% majority. surely there must be some reason that three fourths of the voters wanted it gone, right? this community doesn't just kill mons randomly
and then new threats emerged such as gouging fire (previously easily checked by dirge/dozo fats or offensively pressured by dragon volc) leading to its ban.
gouging fire re-emerged as a threat (not that it ever wasn't, really) because several new sets got popular at once, including fairy tera blast, which beats dragon volc handily—as an aside, fairy was the most popular tera on gouging fire in august. if volcarona had stayed, i don't think it would have made a difference against gouging fire
Now we are seeing fewer and fewer checks to the fat balance styles while ho diversity hinges on like 3 flex slots.
you gotta stop trying to scare people with fat balance, man. it's just not working anymore. offense isn't going anywhere, no matter how much gets kicked out of the tier
Guess what, volc used to be a kyurem check but we got rid of it because complainers can’t think 3 turns ahead and use a tera fire guy or just don’t switch around, and if flame body was an issue then how’s molt’s ridic usage in volcs absence not an issue all of a sudden?
the bottom line about volcarona wasn't flame body or anything. it's always been a big dumb setup wincon that was just barely held back by its crippling rocks weakness and complete inability to hit certain things without hidden power. then last gen gave it boots, this gen gave it an extra stab move of whatever type it wants, and as a bonus chansey and blissey lost toxic and can't put volc on a timer anymore. "use a tera fire guy" doesn't work against ground tb, and "just don't switch around" is very good advice that kinda just stopped working against volc. and the difference between moltres and volcarona is—and you might wanna be sitting down for this because it's kind of a shock—moltres doesn't get quiver dance
Let’s not try to ‘remedy’ mistakes with further mistakes, free gouging and free volc ideally but at the very least keep kyurem in ou so as not to obsolete the very few counters to scor, lu, alo, woger, samu among others and stop the further consecration of the ou metagame.
those bans weren't mistakes. mistakes would be overturning a 76% and 91% vote to unleash two very broken things back into the tier. banning kyurem wouldn't leave any of the mons you listed counterless—in fact, it's possible we'll see more counters to them pop up that were previously held back by kyurem's presence. lastly, why would you want to stop consecration? consecration is a good thing
tldr: don’t fucking ban kyurem or prepare for extremely boring meta
you keep saying this about things and the fun scores on the survey keep going up
 
People are entitled to vote for any reason they would like; that is the beauty of a public (reqs-blocked, but you get it) vote and thread after all. Everyone is good to have whatever vision of the tier in the current and future as they personally see.

Firsthand I worry more about the lack of switch-ins to Kyurem than I do about the consequences of a ban, which we do not know for sure, but it is not worth losing any sleep or derailing this thread over contrasting philosophies.
 
So I'm going to be trying for reqs for the first time, mostly on one principle: Kyurem kinda does everything Baxcalibur does and then some. If Baxcalibur is a broken mon, a mon that basically does the exact same thing and then 4 other things is also probably broken.

I'm open to my mind being changed over the course of the suspect. But given historical precedent and what traditionally makes a mon too much, Kyurem fits the bill. Set variety, pressure on teambuilding, consistently useful to outright oppressive in matches, and random hax? Yeah, this mon has the recipe.

Also he's just kinda weird-lookin. Guy only has half a face. We gotta stop letting Iron Valiant moonblast him so much, let's give him a vacation.
What made Baxcalibur so freaking broken is the fact that it could go all in on its monstrous Attack stat, something which Kyurem cannot do. It had access to Earthquake and what is essentially an Outrage that doesn’t lock you in, and its drawback can be mitigated through speed boosting to just become faster than anything that would otherwise revenge kill you. Kyurem doesn’t have either of those things and is oftentimes forced into selecting what it can target. DD sets will have to pick what they get walked by: dropping Freeze-Dry will leave it walled by bulky Water types, while dropping Earth Power will leave it walled by Steel types, and using Tera Blast will make it reliant on Tera. Special sets, obviously, can be walled. HDB has less consistency. Loaded Dice 4 Attacks sets and the dreaded SubProc are probably the hardest to wall, but the former has to deal with not having DD and being unable to fully EV both attacking stats and a fully optimized Nature.

A quick remark about the SubProc set: SubProc is unfun to play against because literally anything that runs Protect is unfun to play against. Do you enjoy seeing Al*momola alternate between Wish and Protect? Probably not?

Gonna be fr with y’all, this fearmongering shit from DNB players like Magcargo Pais and CTC ain’t it. You are fine to have your opinions, but back it up with claims other than “if kyurem goes, gliscor becomes broken” and “the meta will become fat”.

First off, the meta has plenty of ways to break greedy fat builds without Kyurem. Waterpon is right there, as well as stuff like Knock Tusk, Specs Crown, AV Gking, Primarina, Roaring Moon, Gholdengo, Darkrai, SD Gliscor, Samu, Ursaluna, Hydrapple, Rockpon (super underrated mon, pls use), Hoopa-U, CM Tera Steel/Ghost/Ground Enam, etc. And can we let go of the fucking Zapluking argument already? It’s been a year already since that metagame, using it as a reason to not ban anything is overused and frankly ridiculous. Imo Gliscor is broken with or without Kyurem around, but it’s not like we don’t have very strong Waters and Ice types/moves running around to pressure kt.
It’s not just ZapKingLu that stands to gain a lot from a Kyurem ban. Plenty of other extremely frustrating archetypes such as ClodGanacl and basically anything with Al*momola on it stand to gain a lot from this. Also, you’re ignoring that fact that everyone who wants Kyurem banned wants at least one of the moms that you listed banned as well.

And if you actually think that Hydrapple can come even close to replacing Kyurem, I just simply don’t know what to tell you.
 
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In an era where several Pokemon have immunities to status conditions and can heal themselves just by switching out, where we have a box legendary from LAST GENERATION that can 1v1 ALL physical attackers in the tier and most special attackers, we are going after a bulky mixed attacker from 10 years ago that only rose to prominence in the past generation. This is where Gen 9 OU is at now.

Whenever I see someone malding about Kyurem, the first thing that I always ask is, “Do you have a Ground type on your team?” Why? Because that’s the group that Kyurem threatens the most. Ground types are by far the most dominant that they have ever been in the history of OU. Although Landorus-Therian’s dominance is not as strong as in Gen 8, several new Ground threats like Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Ting-Lu, and Clodsire have been wreaking havoc, in addition to the miserable sack of shit that we refer to as Gl*scor. Ground-type coverage is more present than ever, with Enamorus, Garganacl, Glimmora, and others, including Kyurem, making use of it. Tera Ground is one of the premier Tera types. With Weavile and Meowscarada nearly guaranteed to fall to UU next shift, Kyurem is the only relevant Ice type in the tier, and the only relevant form of Ice type coverage is Darkrai’s Ice Beam. Kyurem is vital for keeping all of these threats in check, and several more, such as the bulky Water types of the tier. Now, one can easily argue that such Pokemon can be banned as well, and that’s not incorrect. However, this is only true in certain cases. Mons like Gl-scor or Ogerpon-W could certainly be banned afterwards, but who’s going to argue that Landorus-Therian or Great Tusk should be banned? This highlights another reason why I feel Kyurem is healthy for the metagame: it stops bans from snowballing (no pun intended). If Kyurem goes, who's next? If the subsequent mons go, which are next? Do we really want to live in a metagame where we have a new suspect test every month? Alright, that's enough ranting about Ground types.

I do not believe that Kyurem restricts teambuilding very much. A common argument by Kyurem's opposition is that no team can handle every Kyurem set. There is certainly an argument to be made for this, but what these people fail to realize is that there is no Kyurem set that can handle every team, and moreover, that every Kyurem set not only has its unique weaknesses, but also has shared weaknesses among very set. For the sake of brevity, I will only go after their shared weaknesses, but I do want to touch on one in particular a bit more than the others, and that is the SubProc set that the linked video states can only be beaten by "a Blissey or a Tera Ice special wall". This is not true at all, because it has the same shared weaknesses as the other sets. So, what are they?

If you are overly concerned about "Kyurem Proofing" your team, you really only need one or two of these things.

Knock Off: Fast or bulky Knock Off users can cripple or outright defeat Kyurem, as it cannot take a Knock Off followed by a supereffective attack. Items are also extremely important to how Kyurem functions, HDB removal means it can only switch in once or twice more at best, Loaded Dice removal kills its already shaky consistency, Specs removal will decrease its damage output significantly, and Leftovers removal limits how many times it can substitute.

Priority: Loaded Dice sets in particular fear priority moves as they negate Scale Shot boosts, and priority will force mindgames with status moves regardless of the set.

Hazards: Lack of hazard damage will immediately give away that it's a HDB set, and all other sets take massive damage from hazards. Getting hazards up before Kyurem comes in will severely discourage its presence, and getting them up while it's in will force it to stay in or risk punishment.

Status, Coverage, and Phazing: This is simply obvious.

These are all common things that every good team can should have and can easily fit, far from the exaggerations that people make.

Furthermore, Kyurem is shaky defensively and offensively. Mixed sets cannot reliably break without support, SubProc is heavily reliant on predictions, much like Gl*scor and the other cowards who use the move Protect, and Specs sets can be walled. The argument that it restricts teambuilding seems to mostly come from people who simply do not take threats similar to Kyurem seriously. Anything that's weak to Kyurem is threatened by several other things like Great Tusk and Darkrai that have coverage similar to Kyurem, but it can also be threatened back out by the same checks to Pokemon like that. Even Pokemon weak to Kyurem can threaten it out with their coverage.

I do not feel that Kyurem is as difficult to work around as other banned threats, especially since its set variety is also beginning to plateau. Aside from niche options such as Flash Cannon, Tera Electric, or physical HDB sets, there is not that much that Kyurem can do anymore, as its defensive and offensive profile is not as overly dominant. Special and physical variants are limited by their methods of attack, while mixed sets are limited by their EVs, and the infamous SubProc set has only two attacks to pick from, and can be walled just like a Specs set, contrary to what some people would have you believe. All of these, as stated before, are limited by Kyurem's typing, which makes it reliant on Tera. As a final example of why I do not consider Kyurem to be too dominant, I will bring up the Gouging Faceplate ban. There is an entire decade's worth of time between their debuts, and Kyurem lacks the qualities that made Gouging Faceplate so oppressive. For starters, Kyurem is defensively mediocre, while Gouging Faceplate has a better typing and more optimized stat spread. Thus, Gouging Faceplate is not as Tera reliant, and Tera broke it by allowing it to flip matchups. Kyurem cannot flip matchups as easily because all of its most popular Tera options have weaknesses shared with its same typing or weaknesses to another common type. Meanwhile, mixed sets have to choose between having a defensive stat be hindered by Nature, and it does not have access to Booster Energy or sun boosts. Snow boosts do not save it from SE attacks thanks to its crippling weaknesses. It is telling that bulky attacker Kyurem variants have not arisen like with Gouging Faceplate, because it lacks the consistency and defensive capability that made it such a problem. What is also telling is the lack of Choice Band sets despite Kyurem’s access to the same attacking options, as there are much better Choice Band users that have better speed and typing to match it. Kyurem being handicapped to Loaded Dice illustrates, at least in my opinion, why it isn’t too difficult to check, because it lacks the consistency and staying power that would be expected of a Choice Band user. Specs sets do not suggest otherwise, as they rely on matchup fishing to be successful.

All in all, I personally do not feel that Kyurem is banworthy. I personally do not feel that I have very much trouble with taking it down, nor do I feel like my own use of it is too consistent or powerful. I will conclude by reiterating that Kyurem’s position in the metagame is an important one, checking several Ground and Water threats, some of which would be oppressive without its presence and others which would not be as oppressive but increase in dominance even more. It provides a mixed attacker that OU is quite lacking in, without being too consistent or dominant. Banning it will set a dangerous precedent that will lead to more bans by kicking the can down the road and allowing threats such as Gl*scor and others to restrict team building in the same way that Kyurem is accused of doing.

So now I ask you, do you want to live in a metagame where we have a new suspect test every month? And I also ask you, do you have a Ground type on your team?

I will be voting DNB, and you should too.
Ok so I know this post was a bit...controversial but I agree with most of their points. I have some things I would like to add to this though.

1. Just want to say a good portion of my post is personal bias.

2. Personally I think of kyurem is banned garchomp is just going to come back. Not only is it basically kyurem-lite on the physical side (though honestly garchomp is faster so it comes pretty close in power) but it would also be a great Tera user that has the move fire fang. I am not an expert on the tier and I have not used this myself but I guarantee Tera fire garchomp would be basically what we have with Tera Ground kyurem but slightly weaker (and faster). To be fair garchomp doesn't have dragon dance which hinders it a lot but swords dance and scale shot can achieve the same thing and garchomp is faster which can give it better opportunities. This is also yet another ground type in the tier which...I mean why. Finally I do want to mention that I really don't want garchomp back in ou for the 5th Gen in a row so take all this with a grain of salt.

3. With kyurem gone we will have a suspect test very often as they have said but I want you all to understand how much the tier will change if they ban kyurem. First off ogerpon w will be suspected no questions there. Then gliscor will be next. Without gliscor Zama will become even more oppressive and need to be suspected. Without any of these pokemon (and especially ogerpon) alomola and stall will begin dominating the tier and we might even ban some of these pokemon. The tier will be way less healthy with all these changes and can become over-centralized very quickly on more defensive play. The only plus side I can think of this is darkrai will be banned (and thank God destroy that mf) but even that will come with downsides with certain pokemon being banned.

All I am saying here is banning Kyurem would change a lot and most of it will be for the worse. I am not an expert in competitive pokemon and a lot of the stuff I am saying is just stuff I noticed other people say (the garchomp section being almost a complete exception) but I do feel like you all should consider my points and maybe vote do not ban? That is all I am going to say if you leave any replies please be respectful I am not trying to make people upset this is just my opinion.
 
Ok so I know this post was a bit...controversial but I agree with most of their points. I have some things I would like to add to this though.

1. Just want to say a good portion of my post is personal bias.

2. Personally I think of kyurem is banned garchomp is just going to come back. Not only is it basically kyurem-lite on the physical side (though honestly garchomp is faster so it comes pretty close in power) but it would also be a great Tera user that has the move fire fang. I am not an expert on the tier and I have not used this myself but I guarantee Tera fire garchomp would be basically what we have with Tera Ground kyurem but slightly weaker (and faster). To be fair garchomp doesn't have dragon dance which hinders it a lot but swords dance and scale shot can achieve the same thing and garchomp is faster which can give it better opportunities. This is also yet another ground type in the tier which...I mean why. Finally I do want to mention that I really don't want garchomp back in ou for the 5th Gen in a row so take all this with a grain of salt.

3. With kyurem gone we will have a suspect test very often as they have said but I want you all to understand how much the tier will change if they ban kyurem. First off ogerpon w will be suspected no questions there. Then gliscor will be next. Without gliscor Zama will become even more oppressive and need to be suspected. Without any of these pokemon (and especially ogerpon) alomola and stall will begin dominating the tier and we might even ban some of these pokemon. The tier will be way less healthy with all these changes and can become over-centralized very quickly on more defensive play. The only plus side I can think of this is darkrai will be banned (and thank God destroy that mf) but even that will come with downsides with certain pokemon being banned.

All I am saying here is banning Kyurem would change a lot and most of it will be for the worse. I am not an expert in competitive pokemon and a lot of the stuff I am saying is just stuff I noticed other people say (the garchomp section being almost a complete exception) but I do feel like you all should consider my points and maybe vote do not ban? That is all I am going to say if you leave any replies please be respectful I am not trying to make people upset this is just my opinion.
Oh one more thing I forgot the only thing I kind of disagree with is the Knock Off thing that applies to a lot of pokemon besides kyurem so I don't think it is super valid but it is an interesting take.
 
It’s not just ZapKingLu that stands to gain a lot from a Kyurem ban. Plenty of other extremely frustrating archetypes such as ClodGanacl and basically anything with Al*momola on it stand to gain a lot from this. Also, you’re ignoring that fact that everyone who wants Kyurem banned wants at least one of the moms that you listed banned as well.

And if you actually think that Hydrapple can come even close to replacing Kyurem, I just simply don’t know what to tell you.

I’m tired of this fearmongering. Waterpon exists to completely goob Mola as well as slow teams in general, and is actually used less now because of Kyurem.
 
Like Clockwork, not only do more "don't ban because then XYZ becomes oppressive" arguments get posted, one comes from the same party arguing it with the last ban subject (and look how well that turned out when it stayed the first time). And with the same attitude that made the original Gouging Thread (nevermind its meta) such a trainwreck. DNB voters can vote on whatever criteria they choose with their reqs, but that doesn't mean the reasoning is consistent with tiering policy or the posting compliant with the rules

  • No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Kyurem is banworthy or not;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Kyurem vs other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
From which I cite
one of like three mons keeping our meta from devolving into gking lu/scor zap or alo plus gambit wincon jerk off contest similar to 2023 wcop snoozfest and there’s been precedent upon precedent showing us just how nasty defensive mons can be when centralizing the metagame (but we don’t ban defensive mons). Volc ban was already a mistake because last spl meta saw diversity and balance like never before seen but we wanted to get rid of volc for literally zero reason and then new threats emerged such as gouging fire (previously easily checked by dirge/dozo fats or offensively pressured by dragon volc) leading to its ban. Now we are seeing fewer and fewer checks to the fat balance styles while ho diversity hinges on like 3 flex slots. Guess what, volc used to be a kyurem check but we got rid of it because complainers can’t think 3 turns ahead and use a tera fire guy or just don’t switch around, and if flame body was an issue then how’s molt’s ridic usage in volcs absence not an issue all of a sudden? Let’s not try to ‘remedy’ mistakes with further mistakes, free gouging and free volc ideally but at the very least keep kyurem in ou so as not to obsolete the very few counters to scor, lu, alo, woger, samu among others and stop the further consecration of the ou metagame.

tldr: don’t fucking ban kyurem or prepare for extremely boring meta
Being able to play a game well doesn't necessarily make one an authority on how to conduct its development or interact with its community, as I consider posts like this to demonstrate. False equivalences (Moltres and Volcarona in OU share nothing besides a 4x Rock weakness and Flame Body), insults to the opposite position (76% and 91% bans are significantly harder to argue with than a close race like Kyurem's 58% survival last time), appeal to an essential Slippery Slope argument ("if we ban these breakers then Fat Balance will dominate") all appear in this thread again, though without much of Gouging's "why aren't we testing Oger/Bolt/King?" at least.


Ok so I know this post was a bit...controversial but I agree with most of their points. I have some things I would like to add to this though.

1. Just want to say a good portion of my post is personal bias.

2. Personally I think of kyurem is banned garchomp is just going to come back. Not only is it basically kyurem-lite on the physical side (though honestly garchomp is faster so it comes pretty close in power) but it would also be a great Tera user that has the move fire fang. I am not an expert on the tier and I have not used this myself but I guarantee Tera fire garchomp would be basically what we have with Tera Ground kyurem but slightly weaker (and faster). To be fair garchomp doesn't have dragon dance which hinders it a lot but swords dance and scale shot can achieve the same thing and garchomp is faster which can give it better opportunities. This is also yet another ground type in the tier which...I mean why. Finally I do want to mention that I really don't want garchomp back in ou for the 5th Gen in a row so take all this with a grain of salt.

3. With kyurem gone we will have a suspect test very often as they have said but I want you all to understand how much the tier will change if they ban kyurem. First off ogerpon w will be suspected no questions there. Then gliscor will be next. Without gliscor Zama will become even more oppressive and need to be suspected. Without any of these pokemon (and especially ogerpon) alomola and stall will begin dominating the tier and we might even ban some of these pokemon. The tier will be way less healthy with all these changes and can become over-centralized very quickly on more defensive play. The only plus side I can think of this is darkrai will be banned (and thank God destroy that mf) but even that will come with downsides with certain pokemon being banned.

All I am saying here is banning Kyurem would change a lot and most of it will be for the worse. I am not an expert in competitive pokemon and a lot of the stuff I am saying is just stuff I noticed other people say (the garchomp section being almost a complete exception) but I do feel like you all should consider my points and maybe vote do not ban? That is all I am going to say if you leave any replies please be respectful I am not trying to make people upset this is just my opinion.
So a few points I feel I should refute here. Please do not regard any of these personally as I acknowledge your statement you're not an expert in the matter, but some of these arguments just do not go with how we handle tiering. I want to make this disclaimer because I know this is following a post I regarded much more harshly.

2. Garchomp cannot replicate Kyurem's role on the tier at large, at most it mimics a few of its sets but not the presence the mon itself has. Garchomp is decent bit less bulky than Kyurem (20 less HP and barely-equal Defenses), and is clearly Physically biased in its offensive stats, which hampers Mixed sets and leaves Special Attacking totally out of the question in OU. Specs, Mixed DD, and SubTect Kyurem are all far outside of Garchomp's ability to replicate at all, much less at a Diet-Kyu level, especially without moves that grant it the coverage of something like STAB Freeze-Dry. Garchomp's fall from OU comes down to a LOT more than Kyurem as check or competition (Dragapult, Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Landorus-T, Roaring Moon, Gliscor, and during-their-time even stuff like Meowscarada make life absolutely miserable for it). Swords Dance and Scale Shot isn't a bad combo, but requiring two turns to get the combination of speed and power is a major downside compared to any DD user, not even just Kyurem. The last point I know you state as an opinion but I still need to deconstruct: Why would we want to keep another ground type OUT of the tier? The type distribution in and of itself doesn't really have a meaning unless it reflects in unhealthy meta developments, which Garchomp has never been a major factor of since Gen 5 or 6. This is phrased like burden of proof is on those who would add another Ground Type when the inherent negative of such isn't exactly apparent.

3. To this I say: irrelevant. Whether or not we have a lot more work to do with suspects after Kyurem leaves, the tier with Kyurem in it now is the concern. If the current OU is not a healthy or competitive environment, then tiering philosophy is for Kyurem to go and the following metas to suspect their problem actors in turn. And this is all speculative: we don't know if Gliscor or Zama will become problems, but general consensus is that Kyurem IS a pain right now (whether or not to ban-worthy levels being the point of this thread).

I mean if kyurem is gone ogerpon w will be next so...
Disregarding the "focus on this suspect" and no guarantees of Future Suspects, I think this is assuming too simple a change. Kyurem's removal will massively alleviate pressure on several mons that it exploits but Ogerpon-W doesn't like dealing with such as Dragonite, Raging Bolt, Sinistcha, Rillaboom, and Ogerpon-Teal, just off the top of my head. Not even to say this ensures it stays honest, but just that losing Kyurem isn't a strict shot to broken without other consequences for Wellspring.
 
Like Clockwork, not only do more "don't ban because then XYZ becomes oppressive" arguments get posted, one comes from the same party arguing it with the last ban subject (and look how well that turned out when it stayed the first time). And with the same attitude that made the original Gouging Thread (nevermind its meta) such a trainwreck. DNB voters can vote on whatever criteria they choose with their reqs, but that doesn't mean the reasoning is consistent with tiering policy or the posting compliant with the rules


From which I cite

Being able to play a game well doesn't necessarily make one an authority on how to conduct its development or interact with its community, as I consider posts like this to demonstrate. False equivalences (Moltres and Volcarona in OU share nothing besides a 4x Rock weakness and Flame Body), insults to the opposite position (76% and 91% bans are significantly harder to argue with than a close race like Kyurem's 58% survival last time), appeal to an essential Slippery Slope argument ("if we ban these breakers then Fat Balance will dominate") all appear in this thread again, though without much of Gouging's "why aren't we testing Oger/Bolt/King?" at least.



So a few points I feel I should refute here. Please do not regard any of these personally as I acknowledge your statement you're not an expert in the matter, but some of these arguments just do not go with how we handle tiering. I want to make this disclaimer because I know this is following a post I regarded much more harshly.

2. Garchomp cannot replicate Kyurem's role on the tier at large, at most it mimics a few of its sets but not the presence the mon itself has. Garchomp is decent bit less bulky than Kyurem (20 less HP and barely-equal Defenses), and is clearly Physically biased in its offensive stats, which hampers Mixed sets and leaves Special Attacking totally out of the question in OU. Specs, Mixed DD, and SubTect Kyurem are all far outside of Garchomp's ability to replicate at all, much less at a Diet-Kyu level, especially without moves that grant it the coverage of something like STAB Freeze-Dry. Garchomp's fall from OU comes down to a LOT more than Kyurem as check or competition (Dragapult, Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Landorus-T, Roaring Moon, Gliscor, and during-their-time even stuff like Meowscarada make life absolutely miserable for it). Swords Dance and Scale Shot isn't a bad combo, but requiring two turns to get the combination of speed and power is a major downside compared to any DD user, not even just Kyurem. The last point I know you state as an opinion but I still need to deconstruct: Why would we want to keep another ground type OUT of the tier? The type distribution in and of itself doesn't really have a meaning unless it reflects in unhealthy meta developments, which Garchomp has never been a major factor of since Gen 5 or 6. This is phrased like burden of proof is on those who would add another Ground Type when the inherent negative of such isn't exactly apparent.

3. To this I say: irrelevant. Whether or not we have a lot more work to do with suspects after Kyurem leaves, the tier with Kyurem in it now is the concern. If the current OU is not a healthy or competitive environment, then tiering philosophy is for Kyurem to go and the following metas to suspect their problem actors in turn. And this is all speculative: we don't know if Gliscor or Zama will become problems, but general consensus is that Kyurem IS a pain right now (whether or not to ban-worthy levels being the point of this thread).


Disregarding the "focus on this suspect" and no guarantees of Future Suspects, I think this is assuming too simple a change. Kyurem's removal will massively alleviate pressure on several mons that it exploits but Ogerpon-W doesn't like dealing with such as Dragonite, Raging Bolt, Sinistcha, Rillaboom, and Ogerpon-Teal, just off the top of my head. Not even to say this ensures it stays honest, but just that losing Kyurem isn't a strict shot to broken without other consequences for Wellspring.
Ok I do apologize for talking about ogerpon w that was wrong I didn't read the rules enough. For the garchomp part I was just saying my opinion (though I did mention that I was talking about the physical side not in general) and that goes for the whole thing. Please understand that I didn't intend to upset anyone or make things worse I was just replying to someone else while stating my own takes. Thank you for understanding (I hope).
 
"Is kyurem broken/uncompetitive?" is the subject.

Stop making theories about what will happen if we ban it, because nobody really knows. We will never go back to the zap ting lu metagame, because time travel doesn't exist. The metagame always evolves, it never goes back in the past. If mons become broken after kyurem ban, they will also be banned, until the metagame become unjoyable and competitive.

Darkrai, Roaring Moon, Primarina, Raging Bolt and many others weren't here in the zapdos Ting Lu metagame, so no, it will never ever be the same.

If you don't want Kyurem to be banned, explain which mons counter/check Kyurem, and why it is balanced for you.

I think that Kyurem is way too unpredictable to be healthy in this metagame. Freeze is also a very uncompetitive thing but Kyurem is broken even without it. There is no pokemon in the whole game that can handle every good Kyurem sets.

You go on glowking? Dragon dance on the switch, then tera ground or elec (to avoid para) and second dragon dance. The game is almost over at this point. Sub tera ground also works. Offensive tera ground earth power also deals a lot of damage. Mixed destroys slowking.

You go on prim? Dd tera elec OHKOes AV set, freeze dry deals too much damage and primarina can't heal (except with the rare draining kiss)

You go on Iron Crown? Same as glowking against tera elec. Takes too much from earth power.

You go on Dondozo? Worst idea ever, Freeze Dry OHKO depending on the set

Toxapex? Weak to ground and freeze dry, can't do anything to sub protect.

Corvilknight? If it's physically defensive, special sets destroys it. If it's specially defensive, physical sets destroys it.

Tinkaton? Heatran? Kingambit? Ghold? Once your balloon is broken, you just get destroyed by one or two earth power.

Alomomola? Weak to freeze dry, must be av. Against dd, you have to pray for a burn.

Garganacl? Sub protect destroys it (especially with tera), earth power deals too much damage

Blissey? Destroyed by mixed and physical sets.

Kyurem has 0 counter. Even if you play something weird (like the psychic steel thing with levitate), there still is a kyurem set that destroys your pokemon (dd tera fire for this one). The pokemon is also really bulky, and you can tera to change your weakness. It puts too much pressure on teambuilding and is unpredictable in game.
 
one of like three mons keeping our meta from devolving into gking lu/scor zap or alo plus gambit wincon jerk off contest similar to 2023 wcop snoozfest and there’s been precedent upon precedent showing us just how nasty defensive mons can be when centralizing the metagame (but we don’t ban defensive mons). Volc ban was already a mistake because last spl meta saw diversity and balance like never before seen but we wanted to get rid of volc for literally zero reason and then new threats emerged such as gouging fire (previously easily checked by dirge/dozo fats or offensively pressured by dragon volc) leading to its ban. Now we are seeing fewer and fewer checks to the fat balance styles while ho diversity hinges on like 3 flex slots. Guess what, volc used to be a kyurem check but we got rid of it because complainers can’t think 3 turns ahead and use a tera fire guy or just don’t switch around, and if flame body was an issue then how’s molt’s ridic usage in volcs absence not an issue all of a sudden? Let’s not try to ‘remedy’ mistakes with further mistakes, free gouging and free volc ideally but at the very least keep kyurem in ou so as not to obsolete the very few counters to scor, lu, alo, woger, samu among others and stop the further consecration of the ou metagame.

tldr: don’t fucking ban kyurem or prepare for extremely boring meta
first off "volc ban was a mistake" is wild lmao. Sure it checked kyurem, but thats not good logic to keep something broken lol, as backed up by the 75% of people who voted to ban it. Also "we don't ban defensive mons" is crazy when gliscor literally got banned in DLC1. Also any ice type coverage move can break through the lu scor zapdos core lol, we don't need to keep a broken one like kyurem around to do that. Weavile cooks this core for obviously reasons (yes zapdos can para it with static, but icicle crash is honestly better and can get around that pretty easy. Darkrai also cooks this core pretty easy, hitting glowking super effectively and putting a lot of pressure on ting-lu with focus blast. Also, idk if you noticed, but DLC2 added a lot more pokemon than just kyurem, so its not like removing 1 mon will suddenly just revert the metagame back to DLC1. Also worth mentioning gliscor is really just not a good abuser of tera lol, since it can't hold boots and really hates becoming vulnerable to spikes.
 
"Is kyurem broken/uncompetitive?" is the subject.

Stop making theories about what will happen if we ban it, because nobody really knows. We will never go back to the zap ting lu metagame, because time travel doesn't exist. The metagame always evolves, it never goes back in the past. If mons become broken after kyurem ban, they will also be banned, until the metagame become unjoyable and competitive.

Darkrai, Roaring Moon, Primarina, Raging Bolt and many others weren't here in the zapdos Ting Lu metagame, so no, it will never ever be the same.

If you don't want Kyurem to be banned, explain which mons counter/check Kyurem, and why it is balanced for you.

I think that Kyurem is way too unpredictable to be healthy in this metagame. Freeze is also a very uncompetitive thing but Kyurem is broken even without it. There is no pokemon in the whole game that can handle every good Kyurem sets.

You go on glowking? Dragon dance on the switch, then tera ground or elec (to avoid para) and second dragon dance. The game is almost over at this point. Sub tera ground also works. Offensive tera ground earth power also deals a lot of damage. Mixed destroys slowking.

You go on prim? Dd tera elec OHKOes AV set, freeze dry deals too much damage and primarina can't heal (except with the rare draining kiss)

You go on Iron Crown? Same as glowking against tera elec. Takes too much from earth power.

You go on Dondozo? Worst idea ever, Freeze Dry OHKO depending on the set

Toxapex? Weak to ground and freeze dry, can't do anything to sub protect.

Corvilknight? If it's physically defensive, special sets destroys it. If it's specially defensive, physical sets destroys it.

Tinkaton? Heatran? Kingambit? Ghold? Once your balloon is broken, you just get destroyed by one or two earth power.

Alomomola? Weak to freeze dry, must be av. Against dd, you have to pray for a burn.

Garganacl? Sub protect destroys it (especially with tera), earth power deals too much damage

Blissey? Destroyed by mixed and physical sets.

Kyurem has 0 counter. Even if you play something weird (like the psychic steel thing with levitate), there still is a kyurem set that destroys your pokemon (dd tera fire for this one). The pokemon is also really bulky, and you can tera to change your weakness. It puts too much pressure on teambuilding and is unpredictable in game.
Yes you are right I shouldn't have mentioned what might happen after the kyurem ban (and I am sorry about that) but don't you think you are overexaggerating just a little bit? For one thing there is one pokemon that I know for sure counters every kyurem set I can think of (scizor [if I am wrong feel free to curse at me and scream loudly xD]) and another thing even if this isn't true kyurem can still be played around. There are other stronger and faster dragon types in this tier that can beat kyurem before he subs or dds. First off though it absolutely needs to be careful, once you know that it is sub kyurem dragon darts dragapult is pretty good against it. Second off I think any pokemon that goes Tera fairy against the physical sets has at least a realistic chance of beating kyurem. Nothing is concrete (except maybe scizor) but there are checks and counters to kyurem. I am not going to tell you what to do I just ask you to open your mind a little bit about the other options to beat what I will now call Mr dry ice.
 
Ok I do apologize for talking about ogerpon w that was wrong I didn't read the rules enough. For the garchomp part I was just saying my opinion (though I did mention that I was talking about the physical side not in general) and that goes for the whole thing. Please understand that I didn't intend to upset anyone or make things worse I was just replying to someone else while stating my own takes. Thank you for understanding (I hope).
well, there are a lot of differences between garchomp and kyurem that will probably prevent garchomp from directly taking kyurem's place, even as a physical attacker. first off, garchomp doesn't get dragon dance, so boosting its attack and speed would take two moveslots (sd + scale shot) and at least two turns, which makes it a lot less scary as a setup mon. second, garchomp doesn't have ice stab (or any ice moves at all), and i highly doubt it's going to invest into ice tera blast to compensate for that. ice is a very good offensive type and synergizes very well with ground, which is one of the reasons kyurem's so scary with earth power or physical ground tb sets. third, garchomp is just kinda completely outclassed as a physically offensive dragon-type by roaring moon, which has higher attack, higher speed, an ability that helps it offensively, dragon dance, knock off, taunt, roost, and plenty of other tools that make it a way more threatening setup sweeper and breaker than garchomp could ever hope to be this gen. i hope this will explain some of the reasons why garchomp isn't going to be replacing kyurem
 
Not to do a 1 liner but there's no real way to put substance into this.


You guys realize that if fat becomes broken after kyurem ban (which isn't even a well substantiated thought / predicting the outcome of a ban in a volatile and unstable meta is impossible) ...we just do another suspect test on the next broken thing? like ok if gliscor is broken...we figure that out and ban glisc? LOL like do you guys think after we ban kyurem council is done until 2026 for the new gen lmfao, like do yall think finchinator is just gonna say "alright guy's were done, no more discussion" and then hes just gonna lock all discussion threads??? like am I missing something here or a lot of these post just pretending tiering for SV is over after kyurem ban lmao
 
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