Ngl I was saying the opposite lol. I think the council will become more active. But that is enough from me about that subject I don't want to get chastised again xD.
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np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 14 - Hazy Shade of Winter
- Thread starter Finchinator
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it's no problem bud, you're relatively new and you seem willing to learn and grow. don't be afraid to say something just because you might be wrong and get corrected, just take it as a learning experience when it happens for now
Ty for understanding I appreciate you saying that. Also nice profile picture lol
In general, these broken checks broken arguments really shouldn't be employed but I kind of get it from a pragmatic perspective, since zap-king-lu is the unfortunate type of core that isn't broken enough to warrant tiering action but still makes the metagame unplayable (yes, unplayable, i'm not about to sit here and watch glowking click 0 attacks the entire game, lu take 3% from supereffective stab, and cheap zapdos punish me for clicking attacks or even knock).
However, I am very very doubtful that it would see a resurgence if Kyurem gets banned since we would still have gliscor and waterpon (
doesn't rly like lu, especially if vs tera king/lu or resttalk lu). I honestly think Gliscor holds it back more than Kyurem does though, which might be an issue to some people since Gliscor has been popping up in discussions recently. Further, it's fair to say it doesn't really like Kyurem even if it doesn't fundamentally stop it from doing what it does (either sd outlasting checks or clicking toxic/spikes), so a kyurem ban might put gliscor back under the microscope.
People are probably thinking that keeping kyurem is the lesser evil, which I think is fair given zapdos is probably the lamest mon ever. Also, some probably feel it necessary to come out with a strong reactionary response since all the mons discussed as potentially problematic, such as the recently banned
, 
, 
and to lesser extent and 
, also happen(ed) to be by far our most viable balance breakers. If all of these guys end up banned at some point, which i think is both very unlikely and very silly to do, then not only would zap-king-lu probably see a significant rise in viability, but also alo (cringe).
Still, kyurem is probably broken, and broken checks broken shouldn't be something applied on principle. I won't get reqs since I think this vote probably won't be close lol, and I also wouldn't lose sleep if it stays. Still, would rather kyurem banned than another balance breaker since people seem to be out for blood anyway.
However, I am very very doubtful that it would see a resurgence if Kyurem gets banned since we would still have gliscor and waterpon (
doesn't rly like lu, especially if vs tera king/lu or resttalk lu). I honestly think Gliscor holds it back more than Kyurem does though, which might be an issue to some people since Gliscor has been popping up in discussions recently. Further, it's fair to say it doesn't really like Kyurem even if it doesn't fundamentally stop it from doing what it does (either sd outlasting checks or clicking toxic/spikes), so a kyurem ban might put gliscor back under the microscope.People are probably thinking that keeping kyurem is the lesser evil, which I think is fair given zapdos is probably the lamest mon ever. Also, some probably feel it necessary to come out with a strong reactionary response since all the mons discussed as potentially problematic, such as the recently banned
, , and to lesser extent and , also happen(ed) to be by far our most viable balance breakers. If all of these guys end up banned at some point, which i think is both very unlikely and very silly to do, then not only would zap-king-lu probably see a significant rise in viability, but also alo (cringe).Still, kyurem is probably broken, and broken checks broken shouldn't be something applied on principle. I won't get reqs since I think this vote probably won't be close lol, and I also wouldn't lose sleep if it stays. Still, would rather kyurem banned than another balance breaker since people seem to be out for blood anyway.
Rq what makes the zapdos ting-lu glowking so good anyway? Also the lamest pokemon in the tier is Enamorus stop lying to yourself xDIn general, these broken checks broken arguments really shouldn't be employed but I kind of get it from a pragmatic perspective, since zap-king-lu is the unfortunate type of core that isn't broken enough to warrant tiering action but still makes the metagame unplayable (yes, unplayable, i'm not about to sit here and watch glowking click 0 attacks the entire game, lu take 3% from supereffective stab, and cheap zapdos punish me for clicking attacks or even knock).
However, I am very very doubtful that it would see a resurgence if Kyurem gets banned since we would still have gliscor and waterpon (
People are probably thinking that keeping kyurem is the lesser evil, which I think is fair given zapdos is probably the lamest mon ever. Also, some probably feel it necessary to come out with a strong reactionary response since all the mons discussed as potentially problematic, such as the recently banned
Still, kyurem is probably broken, and broken checks broken shouldn't be something applied on principle. I won't get reqs since I think this vote probably won't be close lol, and I also wouldn't lose sleep if it stays. Still, would rather kyurem banned than another balance breaker since people seem to be out for blood anyway.
Edit: No wait I am sorry Fallen 5 Gambit is the lamest pokemon lol. Clicking sucker punch is so lame but hey you know what they say play lame win games
thanks, i drew it myself! i'm very proud of it
The Kyurem vote will be a lot closer than the Gouging Fire vote as there was an overwhelming consensus that Gouging Fire was broken among good players. There are already more DNB opinions from players who regularly get reqs for this suspect test, which shows that the Kyurem vote won't be as one-sided. If you think Kyurem is broken, you should absolutely get reqs as the number of offense players that find Kyurem not broken is by no means a small number.
zapdos is dead! it's dead and buried. we have raging bolt now, and ice beam darkrai, and rockpon even, and iron boulder if you're not taking the game seriously. we don't have to live in fear of it anymore, kyurem or no kyurem. and considering that skarm-king-lu and corv-king-lu have been popular cores this dlc with minimal outcry, i think zapdos is the thing people were really taking issue with the whole timeIn general, these broken checks broken arguments really shouldn't be employed but I kind of get it from a pragmatic perspective, since zap-king-lu is the unfortunate type of core that isn't broken enough to warrant tiering action but still makes the metagame unplayable (yes, unplayable, i'm not about to sit here and watch glowking click 0 attacks the entire game, lu take 3% from supereffective stab, and cheap zapdos punish me for clicking attacks or even knock).
However, I am very very doubtful that it would see a resurgence if Kyurem gets banned since we would still have gliscor and waterpon (
People are probably thinking that keeping kyurem is the lesser evil, which I think is fair given zapdos is probably the lamest mon ever. Also, some probably feel it necessary to come out with a strong reactionary response since all the mons discussed as potentially problematic, such as the recently banned
Still, kyurem is probably broken, and broken checks broken shouldn't be something applied on principle. I won't get reqs since I think this vote probably won't be close lol, and I also wouldn't lose sleep if it stays. Still, would rather kyurem banned than another balance breaker since people seem to be out for blood anyway.
When zapdos is projected to come to ou next month: (lol)
It's not worth trying to sympathize with an obsolete argument. Zap-King-Lu can be dismantled by Gliscor, Dragapult, Wellspring, Cornerstone, Weavile, Roaring Moon, Sun Wake, Rain Barraskewda, and Tera Dark LO D-speed. There are also plenty of mons that can very easily deal with at least 2 out of the 3 like Darkrai, Rillaboom, and Hamurott as well as stuff from lower tiers like Lokix. It's not that difficult to deal with Zap-King-Lu cores. Gen 9 still has too many offensive tools to trend away from offense that much for long. I say this as somebody who was against the initial Gliscor ban and disliked that meta immensely. It's never coming back to that extent. Kyurem is far from the only viable wallbreaking, either. OU has plenty of options to break defensive cores.In general, these broken checks broken arguments really shouldn't be employed but I kind of get it from a pragmatic perspective, since zap-king-lu is the unfortunate type of core that isn't broken enough to warrant tiering action but still makes the metagame unplayable (yes, unplayable, i'm not about to sit here and watch glowking click 0 attacks the entire game, lu take 3% from supereffective stab, and cheap zapdos punish me for clicking attacks or even knock).
However, I am very very doubtful that it would see a resurgence if Kyurem gets banned since we would still have gliscor and waterpon (
People are probably thinking that keeping kyurem is the lesser evil, which I think is fair given zapdos is probably the lamest mon ever. Also, some probably feel it necessary to come out with a strong reactionary response since all the mons discussed as potentially problematic, such as the recently banned
Still, kyurem is probably broken, and broken checks broken shouldn't be something applied on principle. I won't get reqs since I think this vote probably won't be close lol, and I also wouldn't lose sleep if it stays. Still, would rather kyurem banned than another balance breaker since people seem to be out for blood anyway.
Yes, hard agree with this. If you think kyu is broken, please try getting reqs or making at least some attempt to. Post about it as well. You can't rely on it going on its own because unlike with Gouging, some people want this thing to stay.
About scizor, it does beat common sets.... except maybe sub protect tera ground (and dd tera fire), and it has no recovery. Scizor is also not really common.
The problem is that Kyurem can come on the field easily, with a pivot, or by coming on a weak/resisted move. There are many pivots in this metagame, and the glowking - kyurem core is especially broken, because snow boosts kyurem defence, making it bulkier. When Kyurem comes, we just can't switch in to any mon without taking a massive risk, because it just has too many sets.
You can revenge kill it, but it easily boosts at + 2 speed with dd (especially with scale shot), and it can just tera. Under snow, it is harder to ko it.
Mons with good speed boosting moves need real counters, not just offensive checks (that doesn't even check every time)
The dragons? Roaring moon is mostly used without dragon type moves. Dragapult can ko, and .... that's all. (Latios isn't common)
If you tera, you take a hit and dd or you just ko them (same for fairy type pokemons. Iron Valiant can be great with encore against dd, but it only work once.)
The tera fairy may work for a bulky mon which resists ice and can then haze or ko, but it's not really easy to fit on a team and you need to lose your tera.
To be fair I have never even heard mention of tera fire kyurem before today but I understand what you are saying. However I disagree that tera fairy is hard to fit on a team. It isn't like super easy or anything but the whole point of tera is its flexibility. You could probably go tera fairy dragonite or something and that could do something (I don't know I am rambling a little bit). My point is kyurem can be beaten just like any other pokemon in the tier but it is up to us to figure out how. That is just my opinion I am not trying to offend you.
In the pre-home metagame, the tier was in a fantastic state by the end of it. There was a high variety of playstyles, a variety of top tiers such as Hydreigon, Breloom, Amoonguss, Toxapex, and even Hisuian Zoroark. It was a true utopia, where skill and variety dominated and almost anything could work.
Then Home happened. Following the bans of the initial drops like Chien Pao and Regieleki, we saw an evil core rise up to destroy the metagame:
This core ravanged the metagame, where "skillful play" was determined by which player got the game winning paralysis dice rolls the most in their favor. The once beloved and cherished SV OU metagame turned into a series of 50/50 dicerolls, where game outcomes were out of the player's control, and in the hands of the RNG gods, deciding which player got the game winning paralysis. Interactions like clicking rapid spin with great tusk became a liability, as tusk would merely get paralyzed and be cheesed while Ting-Lu and Samurott-H destroyed the tier with their Spikes. Thankfully, we had Baxcalibur in this time to save the metagame and not make
In DLC1, following the ban of Baxcalibur, Gliscor rose to the top of the metagame, being a virtually riskless pick that completely dominated matches with its ability to effortlessly set up Spikes, knock off Boots, and all around outlive every other threat in the metagame. Many of the best teams during this time needed to either be Grassy Terrain, or they would be overwhelmed by Gliscor's peerless longevity and progress making capabilities. The best counter to these gliscor teams was often your own SD Gliscor. In many ways, this metagame was refreshing compared to the paralysis spam 50/50s of the previous post-Home metagame. But here, there was a debate as to whether the cure to the problem was worse than the problem itself. Following Gliscor's ban however, the answer was evidently no.
After seeing the dark ages of the Home and DLC1 metagames, the playerbase has had enough. We have seen the alternative to a Kyurem metagame already and WE WON"T GO BACK. Kyurem keeps many of the playstyles that dominated the past 2 formats like Gliscor balance and ZapKingLu in check. Unlike Baxcalibur, Kyurem is no where near as dominant as a Ice-type, having to rely on either mixed sets or a forced Terastalization for coverage on its DD sets, while also being vulnerable to entry hazards (due to running Loaded Dice) in a metagame where entry hazards are more difficult to remove than ever. Its special sets are quite strong especially SubTect which has been making the rounds as of late. Nonetheless, we have already began to see new counterplay emerge, whether it be Iron Crown, Psychic Noise Tera Steel Latios, Scizor, and AV Hoopa Unbound, all of which utility in checking other common Pokemon such as Hatterene, Gliscor, Roaring moon, and general strong special threats like Raging Bolt respectively, in addition to players being more proactive in setting and maintaining entry hazards, which can pressure Subtect Kyurem over the course of a game. New options like Fezandipti have also began to see usage which players are using to check Pokemon other than Kyurem, like Iron Valiant, Darkrai, and Raging Bolt.
Speaking of entry hazards, this gets me onto my next point - the support Kyurem requires. Compared to many other top tiers gamers complain about like Darkrai and Gliscor, Kyurem actually requires a lot of support to get going. Hazard removal in a gen where hazards are nearly impossible to remove, pivots to bring it in safely against the Pokemon that it supposedly farms for free, like Gliscor (where Knock + Toxic destroy its threat level), etc. For a Pokemon that's supposedly quickban worthy, a significantly higher skill ceiling & level of support is required to use Kyurem and even then, its consistency and performance still can be lesser than many of its compatriots due to teams packing many of the Pokemon that it will naturally struggle against, such as Balloon Kingambit, Balloon Gholdengo, Zamazenta, Iron Valiant, etc. Speaking from experience, there is a massive amount of fluctuation in Kyurem's usefulness in a match - Gliscor and Darkrai are generally more splashable picks and arguably have higher upside as well due to Gliscor's better defensive profile, and Darkrai's better speed tier. Kyurem's defensive utility is quite poor in general next to many of OU's best Pokemon such as Kingambit, Primarina, Gliscor, Dragapult, and Gholdengo, which have significantly more utility checking threats while also being more effective general attackers due to their inherent traits, such as Kingambit's priority, Primarina's ability to block healing & act as a psuedo special wall on HO, or Gliscor's ability to ignore passive damage. Compared to these Pokemon, Kyurem needs to select its spots more carefully, and even then, it's structures can be prone to falling up short due to their inherent limitations, typically having a general vulnerability to key threats like Gholdengo, Darkrai, Zamazenta, and Iron Valiant.
There have been claims that Kyurem is limiting many balanced staples like Corviknight, Slowking-Galar, and Alomomola. However, I find this claim to be some cap. If anything, all of these balanced staples love Kyurem's presence as a queen piece that can make the most mileage out of their pivoting talents. Slowking-Galar's Chilly Reception boost Kyurem's bulk to let it better handle threats like Ogerpon-W, while it also lures in some threats Kyurem can take advantage of, like Samurott-H and Ting-Lu. Corviknight can safely bring Kyurem in against many of the threats its suppose to check like Gliscor and help Kyurem get rid of the hazards that so devastatingly limit it. Alomomola can help Kyurem regain its health that its likely to lose from entry hazards and appreciates Kyurem's (somewhat inconsistent) defensive utility against Ogerpon-W. The fact is, many balance staples are retaining a job because of Kyurem role as a partner to them. and this is reflected by many of the best Kyurem teams having one of Corviknight, Slowking-G, Alomomola, or another defensive pivot like Moltres paired with it. How can Kyurem be limiting the usage of the very Pokemon its commonly paired up with? It doesn't make sense.
The popular mechanic of the generation, Terastalization, has done wonders to help contain Kyurem, with many commonly used Pokemon like Raging Bolt, Kingambit, Gholdengo, and Garganacl running Tera Fairy and typically smoking most sets, with Garganacl mainly struggling against sub protect. Other Pokemon like AV Hoopa can make use of Tera Steel to grant enhanced safety against sets like Mixed Kyurem. Even Tera Fairy Ting-Lu is annoying for Kyurem to face, with it Whirlwinding Sub Kyurem away and forcing it to take increased entry hazard chip damage. Other common options such as Tinkaton have also begun seeing usage as well, which is in no way niche due to its utility against other common Pokemon like Darkrai and Raging Bolt with Encore. Despite complaints about it, the metagame has adapted itself to Kyurem quite well and will continue adapting to new sets like SubProtect, where options like Tera Steel Psychic Noise Latios, alluring voice users, and old favorites like Skeledirge are being explored to curb its impact, which have many other application use cases as well.
While I appreciate the OU Council's swiftness in taking action against threats the playerbase deems to be a problem, the fact of the matter is that this suspect is far too soon after the Gouging Fire suspect. While I generally don't feel that Gouging Fire's ban affected the metagame too drastically, it noticably buffed all of Kyurem's main checks and counters like Galarian Slowking, Iron Crown, Scizor, Tinkaton, Gholdengo, and more. I feel Kyurem was one of the few Pokemon notably hurt by Gouging Fire's ban because of this and I feel more time was needed before we proceeded with this suspect to see if the rise in these Pokemon would help curb its impact.
The closest set to being broken in my eyes is the mixed DD set, which is OP vs stall specifically. To my stall friends who may consider voting ban on Kyurem due to its mixed dd set being frustrating to fight, understand they will target Gliscor next which will destroy stall (& balance) as a whole. They will be citing a "lack of Ice-type attackers" as the thing that pushes scor over the edge. We saw stall get utterly destroyed following Gliscor's ban in the last DLC. We won't make the same mistake again, and Kyurem's presence does a great job in helping Gliscor stay in the tier. Stall has tools to deal with Kyurem, like Tera Steel Cresselia (which has an amazing general defensive profile might I add) but it does not have the tools to deal with losing its best defensive piece and Knock Off absorber.
I will vote Do not ban on Kyurem.
Okay, I know I am late to the conversation, but I want to respond to this post, which has seemed to be the main focal point of the discussion, and make some other, tangential points. I have a lot to say about kyurem and the metagame in general, so I apologize in advance if I miss something.
I want to begin by directly responding to some of the points made in Magcargo's post. Magcargo begins by examining the post-home meta and the (in their opinion, unhealthy and uncompetitive) prevalence of ZapKingLu core. They also argue that the pre-gliscor-ban meta was unhealthy, with nothing to keep gliscor in check. Evidently, the playerbase agreed with the latter point, and gliscor was subsequently banned (which I actually disagreed with at the time, but I digress). Magcargo essentially argues that the kyurem is keeping the ZapKingLu core and gliscor in check, preventing them from overrunning the meta once more, essentially arguing for "broken checks broken." This claim is one that I vehemently disagree with. The reason that the aforementioned is less common than it was previously is due to the prevalence of other threats, including but not limited to ogerpon-wellspring and darkrai, which single-handedly beat or force a tera on both ZapKingLu and Gliscor.
Additionally, Magcargo argues that there is a lot of new counterplay to kyurem, and seems to imply that even a single slot on one's team can handle it (just splash on a scizor or AV hoopa). If that's the case, then ZapKingLu and gliscor balance should still be able to thrive in this meta paired with one of the "many" checks to kyurem. You can't have it both ways in my opinion. Its very clear that kyurem has no real answers and checks. Not even resists can take on a specs ice beam. The only mon in the game that can naturally (without tera) beat kyurem is bronzong, which obviously sucks. In fact, you don't even need specs to be a dangerous threat. Throw a boots-four attack kyurem on a hazard stack team and watch the wins pile up. And I'm just talking about the standard kyurem sets. In my opinion, magcargo is wrong on both accounts of his opening argument: 1) there aren't really checks to kyurem. It does significant damage to resists and blows up non-resists. Forcing mons to tera or forcing unviable mons to be used does not mean that there are real checks to a pokemon. Kyurem is an absolute nightmare in the builder. In my opinion, it is tied with ogerpon as being the mon that has the fewest checks and requires the most planning and forethought, especially since there aren't any real counters to it. 2) kyurem is not what is keeping fat, balance, or stall in check. There are other insane mons in the tier right now that do it even better, in addition to the fact that a well crafted hazard stack team will beat stall and fat. To quickly discuss this point, whether you like it or not, hazard stack is one of the best archetypes in this meta due to gholdengho, the loss of defog on many of its best previous users, and the wider distribution of spikes. The only way around hazard stack not being dominant is to ban ghold and other mons that don't deserve bans, so we can assume that hazard stack will remain a staple of the metagame. Notably, it beats stall. Stall has only two real mons that beat hazard stack plus a good knock off user and those are corviknight and gliscor (I will discuss why this isn't even a problem in a moment). To say that kyurem is what is keeping fat and balance in check is completely wrong. Yes, the mixed DD set destroys stall and balance, but it is far from the only thing that does so.
So let's discuss why gliscor wouldn't be broken if kyurem goes. The current meta has many mons that deal with it, whether it be deoxys, ogerpon, darkrai, primarina or weavile, or even predicting the switch in and hitting it with a massive attack from raging bolt, banded rillaboom, triple axel meowscarada, one of the many ice spinner users, and others. Not to mention the prevalence of psychic noise to stop some of the chip healing which helps (albeit does not beat it). Okay, so gliscor protects to scout and tera waters on your ice move. The second that gliscor teras, it starts taking hazards and you can quickly chip it down, especially on a hazard stack team. I truly cannot imagine a world in which gliscor becomes broken after the kyurem ban. And even if it does, we can just ban it again lol.
To my next point, something that I agree with Magcargo on, is the overabundance of hazards in this meta. They argue that most kyurem sets need a lot of support due to this fact, as hazards wear kyurem down too quickly. I think that this is truly the only argument that can be made against kyurem being banned. As mentioned earlier, this is a hazard-centric meta, and removal is tough. It can definitely be difficult to bring kyurem in. The fact of the matter is, however, I don't think that this alone can warrant not banning kyurem. I haven't even began to discuss DD sets and PP stall or the fact that chilly reception makes it even harder to KO and its already a problem.
Magcargo also argues that kyurem makes amazing use of tera. While this is true, something that is unique to kyurem than most other bans this gen is that it does not need tera to be broken. Yes, it makes great use of tera, but so does every other powerful mon in the tier, and kyurem can do it without tera. You see kyurem tera most often on the DD sets, but the mixed DD set doesn't even need to tera to rip massive holes in teams. The fact that kyurem doesn't actually NEED tera to be broken speaks to its need for a ban. You can often muscle past teams without tera-ing. Lets compare it to volcarona, for example. Volc has natural counters, such as dragonite and heatran, and it needs to tera to get past them. Volc was a tera hog. Kyurem, however, is not at all similar. It already has perfect coverage. This means that tera only takes it a step up, or you can save tera for something else on your team, a quality that many other banned mons did not have. I once again vehemently disagree with magcargo's opinion on kyurem as it related to tera.
In my opinion, even the special kyurem alone would be enough to warrant a suspect test, especially when paired with glowking to allow for entry points and the defense boost, due to the nightmare it creates in the builder. However, the DD sets, whether it be mixed or physical, tera abusing or not, coupled with the PP stall sets, make this mon absolutely broken. The fact that you can't predict what set it'll be at team preview and that one wrong move can lead to an instant loss to this mon makes it even worse. I don't think there is a doubt in my mind that kyurem should be banned.
As I have explained before, I also do not think a kyurem ban will lead to a great change in or collapse of the meta and the tier. I think that this will only help the tier and teambuilders since there are other powerful threats to keep fat in check. I understand that gliscor will be amazing, and even broken in some people's eyes, with a kyurem ban, I think that there are far more mons to keep gliscor in check than there are for kyurem. If you are losing to gliscor on team preview, its more of a skill issue. With kyurem, there is nothing viable in the builder that can naturally check it.
I will be voting BAN on kyurem and so should you
I don't disagree in this case, but feel it's worth pointing out that's exactly how we got here. "Just ban Volcarona, sure Kyurem will become broken but we'll totally deal with it then" and now we are dealing with it and it's throwing the entire ecosystem further out of whack - and we all knew it would! You're right that tiering for SV won't be over once Kyurem is banned; it'll only have just begun. The revolving door of mons to ban will only keep moving until the Tera Blast problem is solved and problematic bans that create worse conditions for the tier such as Volcarona's are reversed. Kyurem is broken and should be be banned, because of the situation past tiering action has created. Magcargo raises many good points as usual about Gliscor balance being empowered in a post-Kyurem world. This isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but if Gliscor were to get banned due to a Kyurem ban as predicted when Volcarona's controversial suspect was announced, then get ready for
.Kyurem's ban would be the most correct path to take down the incorrect road we are already on. But let's recognize the mistakes that led us here, and the fact that we will certainly have to go back to square one when the Tera Blast problem is dealt with. "We'll cross that bridge when it comes, let's tier in a vacuum with no foresight" was a bad outlook this entire generation and it's the reason the playerbase is still working to fix this tier - but we can be optimistic that people are finally raising alarm about the mire known as Tera Blast's OU.
I don't disagree in this case, but feel it's worth pointing out that's exactly how we got here. "Just ban Volcarona, sure Kyurem will become broken but we'll totally deal with it then" and now we are dealing with it and it's throwing the entire ecosystem further out of whack - and we all knew it would! You're right that tiering for SV won't be over once Kyurem is banned; it'll only have just begun. The revolving door of mons to ban will only keep moving until the Tera Blast problem is solved and problematic bans that create worse conditions for the tier such as Volcarona's are reversed. Kyurem is broken and should be be banned, because of the situation past tiering action has created. Magcargo raises many good points as usual about Gliscor balance being empowered in a post-Kyurem world. This isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but if Gliscor were to get banned due to a Kyurem ban as predicted when Volcarona's controversial suspect was announced, then get ready for
Kyurem's ban would be the most correct path to take down the incorrect road we are already on. But let's recognize the mistakes that led us here, and the fact that we will certainly have to go back to square one when the Tera Blast problem is dealt with. "We'll cross that bridge when it comes, let's tier in a vacuum with no foresight" was a bad outlook this entire generation and it's the reason the playerbase is still working to fix this tier - but we can be optimistic that people are finally raising alarm about the mire known as Tera Blast's OU.
I understand what you're saying, but I really don't think that kyurem fits into the same box as the other banned mons. Its issue is not solely with tera- its a monster and suspect worthy even if you get rid if tera blast. Also, I didn't think gliscor deserved a ban the first time, but I think that there's no way it gets banned this time around even if kyurem goes
I agree, it's not a Tera related issue, it's a "ban all its counters due to Tera and suddenly it becomes broken" issue. Like I said I don't disagree that Kyurem is now broken and now deserves a ban. The situation is just as Pais described, brought about by an unnecessary ban on Volcarona, due to the "just vote ban without thinking of the consequences" attitude encouraged in suspects
Yeah fair enough. I am questioning whether a kyurem ban is only happening because of the volc ban, though. I think it could still be suspected even with volc, but I understand that volc could be a check to kyurem (although you don't want to switch a volc into a kyurem attack)
You're telling me banning tera blast is the easiest and only way to solve the tiers problems? when the tiers problems are the oversaturation of high variance tera abusers that cause the metagame to be unstable and volatile? and tera blast ban effects just volcarona and a little bit on kyurem (who still is a freeze spammer) and kingambit's tera fairy... ?_?I don't disagree in this case, but feel it's worth pointing out that's exactly how we got here. "Just ban Volcarona, sure Kyurem will become broken but we'll totally deal with it then" and now we are dealing with it and it's throwing the entire ecosystem further out of whack - and we all knew it would! You're right that tiering for SV won't be over once Kyurem is banned; it'll only have just begun. The revolving door of mons to ban will only keep moving until the Tera Blast problem is solved and problematic bans that create worse conditions for the tier such as Volcarona's are reversed. Kyurem is broken and should be be banned, because of the situation past tiering action has created. Magcargo raises many good points as usual about Gliscor balance being empowered in a post-Kyurem world. This isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but if Gliscor were to get banned due to a Kyurem ban as predicted when Volcarona's controversial suspect was announced, then get ready for
Kyurem's ban would be the most correct path to take down the incorrect road we are already on. But let's recognize the mistakes that led us here, and the fact that we will certainly have to go back to square one when the Tera Blast problem is dealt with. "We'll cross that bridge when it comes, let's tier in a vacuum with no foresight" was a bad outlook this entire generation and it's the reason the playerbase is still working to fix this tier - but we can be optimistic that people are finally raising alarm about the mire known as Tera Blast's OU.
You plan to stabilize the perpetually unstable tier by nerfing like 1 and a half pokemon... ?????????????????????????
and by the way volcarona is still an uncomp mon fire dance and flame body is a very stupid combination and is a very stupid thing to want in the tier to begin with, let alone banning something for it to be the tier.
Yes there might be more bans, yes eventually we will reach a point of stabilization in the metagame through enough work in the community, no banning tera blast effecting volcarona and a few sets on 2-3 mons is not going to stabilize the entire SV OU tier. You wanna know what is the problem in this tier? The absurd amount of offensive high variance tera abusers that make the tier flip flop constantly on what works this week and what stops working the next week.
Something to say to community: to reiterate, what is up with this gen's playerbase and being completely accepting of uncompetitive pokemon (this extends to high variance tera abusers). Kingambit forces way too many endgames that aren't uhhh exactly the most skill based, and this isn't a 'git gud' this happened several times in OLT and I mean just last week did any of you see the storm zone game? LOL and then volclarona for some reason had supporters, the mon with 50% fiery dance boost and 30% flame body burns, and then kyurem people just *pretend* this mon doesnt freeze semi consistently unless its vs HO/some offense lol like come on we've done the math 3 freeze dry/ice beams is 27% ur getting a freeze like 1 in every 4 to 5 games if ur not terrible at the game and can't get it in. I'm not gonna forget about raging bolt but at the point you should get the idea I *HOPE*. like please wake up can we like, do ANYTHING about pokemon that demean the skill of the game, or at the very least talk about it? Like we have people who genuinely want to ban moves to keep a mon with 50% boost and 30% burn procs on top of it bieng inherently matchup fishy, this is like 1 of the most unserious OU gens and this isn't even the councils fault. For whatever reason the playerbase just loves uncompetitive pokemon. like did tera lower everyones standards for whats not bullshit anymore or something, like this shit would not fly in SS or late gen SM playerbases lmfao. Maybe it's cus all the dumb shit like kings rock and sand veil is already banned so people don't have an idea of how this shit works? i really have no clue but this is getting ridiculous, never in my life could I have predicted people would advocate for a *FREEZE SPAM HIGH VARIANCE TERA ABUSER* ?_?
this last point also semi extends to tera being uncompetitive-ish, it really just depends on how high variance the tera abuser is which is why I make the distinction. To clarify by high variance I mean how drastically different the counterplay is depending on the tera's it has which this is obviously not limited to just tera blast which is why the OP point doesn't make sense from a practical play or paper analysis pov
EDIT: I'm ready for the haha reacts but, I will stand by this, I don't hate anyone. It's just weird to me how way too many of yall are just completely ok with the status quo of uncompetitive pokemon such as kingambit, volc, kyurem / high variance tera abusers (the list is too long).
or maybe im just getting old and high variance is just the future of mons
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we have several other mons in the tier that can pressure glowking/ting-lu/zapdos teams besides kyurem so i'm genuinely not sure why this rhetoric keeps popping up every time we suspect a mon. i do kinda agree volcarona getting banned played a huge role in pushing kyurem over the edge since sub kyurem was basically setup fodder for it, but at the same time i feel like a second kyurem suspect was inevitable regardless of whether or not volcarona was legal. but why was that the only kyurem check you listed in this post? is it because you couldn't think of any pokemon that currently checks it? no disrespect but i really don't see why we need to prevent tiering progress from being made for no reason besides avoiding this hypothetical boogeyman that gets brought up every 2 weeks, and at the very least i wanna hear about how you tend to build and/or play around it when running balance or fat. if you wanna convince people to vote DNB then it'd be nice to have genuine insight on how the playerbase could adapt to kyurem, because otherwise this post just reads as complaining about a metagame that might not even exist
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I’m in the camp that Kyurem was broken even with Volcarona in the tier. Volcarona or not, Kyurem still makes use of Tera Blast, Dragon-type STAB in Scale Shot, etc. Although it wasn’t common at the time, I’m certain Substitute + Protect would still have put an asinine amount of pressure on the tier — including non-Bug Buzz Volcarona to an extent — if it popped into the mainstream while Volcarona was around. But even if Volcarona is a bonafide culpable instance of broken checking broken, it doesn’t change the fact that Volcarona was in and of itself also immensely problematic and possessed a horrible dynamic with the wider metagame. Literally it’s the same argument with post-Kyurem Gliscor but in reverse. It was broken, we acted on it. Kyurem is potentially broken now, so we are acting on it. If Gliscor is potentially broken later, we act on it then too.
This is really just how tiering works and always has. Hypothetical and future metagames are not good to make present decisions around; there is no concrete way of knowing what a dedicated metagame would look like without time and seeing how it plays out across many games and over an elapsed time period.
The best pro-Kyurem arguments I’ve seen came from heileone who actually discussed present metagame dynamics and explained why he felt it was fine in the metagame without using these hypotheticals. I disagree with him but his arguments are well articulated and well framed because they are grounded in observable evidence. I heavily recommend pro-Kyurem posters to check out his posts here to get a good idea on what angles to take regarding pro-ban sentiment. Arguing around “what-ifs” is not the way to go about it imo.
This is really just how tiering works and always has. Hypothetical and future metagames are not good to make present decisions around; there is no concrete way of knowing what a dedicated metagame would look like without time and seeing how it plays out across many games and over an elapsed time period.
The best pro-Kyurem arguments I’ve seen came from heileone who actually discussed present metagame dynamics and explained why he felt it was fine in the metagame without using these hypotheticals. I disagree with him but his arguments are well articulated and well framed because they are grounded in observable evidence. I heavily recommend pro-Kyurem posters to check out his posts here to get a good idea on what angles to take regarding pro-ban sentiment. Arguing around “what-ifs” is not the way to go about it imo.
Yeah, banning Tera Blast will not solve anything. Only Espathra, Regieleki, Volcarona, and Kyurem will be banned largely 'cause of Tera Blast. Gouging Fire was broken even without Tera Blast, and it was just the option to use Tera Fairy Tera Blast that contributed to it getting a 90+% ban vote instead of 70ish%. Tera Blast is such a small part of OU that isn't the main reason for the tier's problems.
This isn't really what this thread is about, but introducing a new spinner with 200 speed and reintroducing a powerful setup sweeper with a very useful typing into the tier that compresses roles very well would certainly reshape the tier, and I don't really see why people say "nothing would change." Especially given that one of those pokemon is Volc, a pokemon we are still dealing with the consequences of banning
"If Gliscor is broken after Kyurem we'll ban it" is not a promise, it is a threat. This is a reason to NOT ban Kyurem - better to not even take the chance of Gliscor being removed. I'm not even defending Kyurem here but you are making a Kyuremless metagame sound undesirable. And "what happens to Gliscor when you ban its most solid counterplay" and "what happens to the tier if Gliscor is banned" is not "theorycrafting" or "a hypothetical," we saw it all unfold during DLC1
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First of all I said we’ll act, not ban. Taking action does not mean banning it, it means taking steps to evaluate it more formally. That could lead to a ban, but it might also not. Please don’t fear monger over me, a council member, outlining literal protocol for a tier I help run and communicating how tiering works.
Second of all, what?????? Yes it very much is a hypothetical??? DLC1’s landscape was drastically different to DLC2’s, as we received a massive influx of new Pokemon, including an unbanned Darkrai, Deoxys-Speed, Raging Bolt, and Iron Crown to name a few, and moves like Triple Axel have re-entered the metagame. DLC1’s metagame is fundamentally different from DLC2’s both on principle and in how literally every archetype functions with and in response to these new Pokemon.
Furthermore Kyurem is not Gliscor’s best counter, and not even a counter at all, actually. Kyurem still has to contest Gliscor’s gameplan, and is threatened by Tera SD sets, Knock Off, and Toxic. Their dynamic with one another is not a clear cut “wallbreaking mon hits type-weak target”, as Tera complicates this and Gliscor’s potency is in part defined by its ability to passively pressure potential offensive checks like Kyurem. Because of this, it can’t hard switch-in like you’d want from a counter, limiting its opportunities to break Gliscor, and Protect leverages it hard when you consider potential Choice locks, Toxic, hazards, and potential teammates that can buffer offensive Pokemon like Kyurem and help Gliscor win the war of attrition. It’s a check and a Pokemon that threatens it, sure, but keeping Kyurem is not going to change the fact that Gliscor is still doing Gliscor things, as evidenced by its high survey score even with Kyurem present. Your post is blatant misinformation.
One of many posts calling foresight ‘fear mongering’ yet if u ask these kids to post elo after claiming to have ‘piloted w ease’ and ‘cleaved thru the ladder’ like greninja guy and other claim, no screenshot above 1700 will be produced I guarantee you. We have already seen a metagame develop into hyper centralized slosh after a former ice dragon got banned, just look at post bax meta with an overwhelming number of lu gking zap clicking momentum moves until eventually gambit swept. Please do not conflate your average player’s lack of foresight and ability to deduce logically with a hopeful curiosity that ‘maybe the meta will get better w more bans’. Notice how sub protect kyurem rose for only a period due to the bea tink cind team with sufficient removal to sustain it becoming popular during cycle one, then my edit of the blim team also became popular with corv cind double removal. However with offense going back on the rise it really snuffed out sub tect kyurem usage because A. It hits too soft and cannot trade with offense and B. Rocks plus a strong mon to force it out once strips it of its bulk advantage. Not to mention several drawbacks such as it requiring tera to have muscle and longevity, and that using protect vs offense is simply one of the most costly things a fat structure can do (this set is difficult to build around and mostly fits on fat). Now for the ban toters flexing their mediocre unoriginal teams such as the one gren guy posted which is standard stall w a rock weak guy for other fat but further exacerbates offense mu, and the ausma team which is basically empo offense with lokix over val, you guys are not making the argument you think you’re making. These structures are established and u can throw a high floor set such as kyurem on there and thrive in the 1500, sure, but let’s see you try that vs any decent player let alone tour player. Kyurem has a very high floor and is easy to use vs players with less experience or awareness on how to gameplan around it, sure, but it also has devastating drawbacks that hold it back from what bax used to to. The special sets need to tera to muscle past special walls such as gking and molt(can’t even muscle), while choiced or non boots sets struggle vs rocks on offense. Bax used to have boots and band had virtually no switchins while keeping priority vs offense, but specs has neither the prio for offense nor the breaking power vs fat. I urge the voters to think for themselves, why has the meta ‘chosen’ new threat upon new threat after each subsequent ban? Could it be that the metagame adapts and each new environment is suitable for a new threat to emerge? Surely banning more mons wouldn’t lead to more bans due to shifts in the meta due to the irreplaceable niches they provide being removed? Notice how the only fire bug type able to resist kyurem’s dual stabs and force it to either run physical and not greedy mixed and completely eradicate sub tect being gone made certain sets seem situationally cheap. But banning more mons with unique niches wouldn’t cause unforeseen circumstances to ‘fear mongering’ mongerers, sure.Gonna be fr with y’all, this fearmongering shit from DNB players like Magcargo Pais and CTC ain’t it. You are fine to have your opinions, but back it up with claims other than “if kyurem goes, gliscor becomes broken” and “the meta will become fat”.
First off, the meta has plenty of ways to break greedy fat builds without Kyurem. Waterpon is right there, as well as stuff like Knock Tusk, Specs Crown, AV Gking, Primarina, Roaring Moon, Gholdengo, Darkrai, SD Gliscor, Samu, Ursaluna, Hydrapple, Rockpon (super underrated mon, pls use), Hoopa-U, CM Tera Steel/Ghost/Ground Enam, etc. And can we let go of the fucking Zapluking argument already? It’s been a year already since that metagame, using it as a reason to not ban anything is overused and frankly ridiculous. Imo Gliscor is broken with or without Kyurem around, but it’s not like we don’t have very strong Waters and Ice types/moves running around to pressure kt.
I also find it funny that Espathra Dreaming uses Tera Ice usage as an argument to keep Kyurem, like its a good thing we’re using one of the most dogshit defensive Tera types just to respond to Kyurem. I’m a bit too busy with school to get reqs rn, but if I were to, I’d vote ban.
Kyurem has a billion different sets with varying counterplay, and is arguably more difficult to read than Gouging Fire for having the ability to run physical, special, or mixed. You pay Kyurem tax on ladder whenever you predict the wrong set, and while that can be true for other offensive threats in SV OU, none of them have the same combination of set diversity and immediate power like Kyurem does.
Sub-tect being imo the most broken set despite its reliance on keeping hazards off.
I piloted this team for the last suspect before moving on to HO.
https://pokepast.es/c90170b819bab76d
In games I’ve played, I witnessed Kyurem PP stall Slowking, Crown Tachyon, Zama and Corv Body Presses, and more. Kyurem imo can afford to invest in more bulk thus being harder to KO and let it Sub up on more stuff since most Gholds are bulky, and Samu/Tusk/Lando tend to not want to stay in on Kyurem.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2196502476-x0pdh8i6w9l7q8lfgdgl4edbg567sjbpw
Look at my opponent’s team. A Tera Fairy SpD Garg with ID, a Dragapult, and Iron Crown, yet Kyurem bullshits its way through via Tera. Is this not enough? Even if my opponent went for Tachyon turn 1, it would get PP stalled throughout a long drawn out game.
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 124 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
Here’s a more optimized spread that avoids a 2HKO from offensive Cinderace’s Pyro Ball, lets you Sub up in front of Garg without burning Tera, 1v1s most Darkrais, can avoid an OHKO from Hex Pult’s Darts even after rocks, guarantees Sub stays up vs BP Corv after Tera, lives Primarina’s Moonblast and non-Specs Crown Tachyon at full, eats 2 Hurricanes from Zapdos, and more while still being as strong as max SpA Timid Kyurem.
It’s also not as difficult to support Kyurem in both bringing it in and keeping hazards off as people think. There’s a ton of strong pivots that pair excellently with Kyurem, Cinderace in particular being able to lure most of Kyurem’s victims and Court Change hazards away. Gking making Kyurem disgustingly bulky with Snow.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Kyurem in Snow: 312-368 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Kyurem in Snow: 260-308 (57.3 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Kyurem in Snow: 138-163 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
The support Kyurem needs is not hard to fit, and said suppoet enables it tremendously.
Banning Kyurem will not suddenly make the tier a snoozefest, Kyurem will just be replaced by other breakers like Hydrapple who has already shown to have an excellent Balance matchup and Darkrai who has a similar role to the strong breaker with Ice Beam.
Get blud outta here.
The argument to ‘ban the next threat when it comes’ is myopic and irresponsible because you relinquish the responsibility have to think ahead for now and just pile on the burden of discretion further down the line, but as the greatest builder this generation has seen, I’m telling you, I will take on that burden and lay out exactly what would happen with each metagame shift, as I have done for every shift.
Centralization is one of the banes of a healthy meta, and with diversity compromised after the two mostly unnecessary bans post spl where diversity flourished, I fear further bans will lead us down a road of centralization, and this is a visceral, realistic fear, call it mongering if you will.
In addition, to those citing the high rate of approval for the previous two bans: low requirements is something iv always complained about. ‘You may be better than me but that doesn’t make you more right than me’ is not the argument you think it is. The pedestrian opinions of the general public is in fact one of the Achilles heels of democracy, which is why we have representative democracy. In simpler terms, if the collective opinions of average people were so accurate, you wouldn’t go to a doctor for a professional opinion, just ask uncs at the family reunion what their stance is on vaccination.
Here I’m offering expert opinion at your discretion.
Love,
Goat
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