np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]

[LovelyLuna]

, I'm personally leaning towards Do Not Ban. Ill be referring to the defensive set right now because I think that's what is being suspected right now, instead of Gliscor as a whole. Personally haven't found issue vs the Swords Dance sets.


I'm sure it's not outrageous to say that spikes have been a problem, even pre-DLC. A suicide lead hitting Top 5 in usage and being so common on slower teams, both because of spikes, is just not okay. I don't think itself is an unhealthy pokemon right now, but I'd rather not bring up , so I'll just suggest that isn't that much more problematic than or . While, yes, it has a lot of longevity, I think they put hazards on the field just as effectively and have their own ways of forcing progress.

Is the longevity it has, so bad, to the point it makes a pokemon considered perfectly fine, ban worthy? Protect isn't exactly reliable recovery and it's still getting chipped by rocks. I think that if one plays correctly into it, isn't that much of an issue. I think one thing that makes it so annoying is how patient you have to be to handle it. Gen 9 has been very hyper offensive for a while so a pokemon requiring patience isn't something people are used to. I think giving more time would be the right decision, letting people get used to a slower paced metagame which is imo, healthier then what it would be without .

I believe isn't great into most set up sweepers after a single boost, and has offensive checks, , , , , and to name a few. While slower teams who would not usually use these pokemon, are probably using their own already, pokemon like handle the EQ variants fine and things like thrive into the Knock variants. I think the meta is currently well equipped to handle and the pokemon should be given more time, letting people get used to slower games.

I do also think is pretty positive for the tier, an option against the dominating Hyper Offence and making Balance and Stall more viable. A knock absorber is in general appreciated, letting it help into opposing hazards even if it's part of the issue.

 

[Highv0ltag3]

Just ban tera at this point its making gliscor like 15x harder to kill than past generations.

Thats cap, Gliscor rarely ever wants to Tera. In fact, it is very good and splashable precisely because it is not Tera reliant at all.

Gliscor has one of the three typings that allow you to be spikes immune and neutral to stealth rock, which combined with Poison Heal makes it fully immune to hazards. If Gliscor changes typing, it loses it's main attribute, the full hazard immunity, so you really should avoid using Tera on this thing in most games.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Just ban tera at this point its making gliscor like 15x harder to kill than past generations.

1: We are suspecting Gliscor, not Tera. There's really not much reason to be saying "Ban Tera" here.

2: This isn't even true. Hell, if anything, Gliscor is probably the most tera agnostic Pokemon that has been suspected thus far. Ground/Flying is a superb defensive typing since not only does it have a very strong defensive profile, but it is one of very few typings in the game that grant an inherient immunity to spikes without coming at the cost of a Stealth Rock weakness.

 

[Highv0ltag3]

Leaning towards no ban, simply because if Gliscor goes away and Ghold stays, we go back to Samurott-H + Ghold and Ting-Lu + Ghold meta, which for me was much much worse.

And in case Gholdengo does get banned, we probably end up indirectly balancing Gliscor anyways, by enabling stuff like Corviknight.

I know my argument does not focus around the Pokemon itself, but Gliscor is a support Pokemon, it is better understood by taking into consideration how it plays for the team.

 

[Archer Kirby]

The reason why people aren't following the Gholdengo rule is because for some (like myself) the two are practically joined at the hip. I can't really talk about what makes Gliscor broken without mentioning Gholdengo's stranglehold on the tier and for me its the difference between what does and doesn't break Gliscor and I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a strong influence on what I'll likely be voting.

Gliscor is a pretty cracked mon, great stats and typing but as we know with Lando-T's current situation, it takes more then that to be good in this meta. Gliscor also has an amazing movepool and apart from losing Roost came through Dexit relatively unscathed. This movepool getting Spikes in this metagame was definitely the tipping point. I'd also say Gliscor is unique in that it honestly performs the same regardless of how the opponent chooses to tera, offensively or defensively. Its always just being a pain, setting up Spikes, Knocking and spreading Toxic while being a great wall.

But being honest, what broke Gliscor wasn't its addition of Spikes, its the metagame it came to SV OU in. For an extremely long time, we've been in a hazard centric metagame which has only gotten worse as we've ironically banned everything that could have helped lessened or stop this (More on this later) and we've reached the point where Hazard Stacking is so powerful, there is no reason to not run at least Spikes if not Spikes + SR and its crazy that we've hit a point where SR isn't even a top 2 move anymore (Spikes and Knock are way better). Due to Hazards being so powerful, having the ability to not only set them but also negate any of their damage is an amazing trait to have. Acting also a sponge for status, and with the ability to knock users forcing them to take hazards, there is only one other mon that can do this which is Clefable which is obviously worse due to its typing, low bulk and no access to Spikes. Due to Hazard stacking, Gliscor at least for me, is an absolute pain unless I bring along my own Gliscor when running more defensive teams. In previous gens, bulky walls could do well but even with regen now, that is simply negated by all the hazards as they get knocked while they fail to break it. Offensive teams don't fair much better, while they can break it more easily, they are still taking a ton of damage limiting their switch-ins made further worse by toxic, and Gliscor can choose to Protect to scout a choice move or just coverage again. I honestly feel that in this broken Metagame, Gliscor is a disease that can thrive and make the condition of it worse.

And what broke this Metagame was Gholdengo. With its ability to block three major forms of hazard removal, it is the simple standard on which hazard removers are judged. If they cannot clear hazards in the face of it, they are unsuitable for the role. If Gliscor is a disease in our meta, then Gholdengo is the cause in the first place and one that only gets worse (look at what we've banned and see how with the exception of maybe Palafin, they all beat Ghold). I won't go into more detail at the risk of having this post removed but Gholdengo is definitely something that makes Gliscor a lot worse to deal with and this does apply to other hazard setters.

This is also the reason why after I finish getting reqs, I'll be voting no ban. Simply put, I believe by removing the cause, the disease (Gliscor) can be dealt with. Sure, the metagame sucks at the moment and no-one will argue otherwise, but also I don't want to ban something that isn't broken just because its surroundings force it that way. I also feel this is the best way forward because following Gliscor's acquittal, we'll likely look into the true heart of the problem. Sure its not voting with the "Current" metagame in mind or its best interests, but it is looking a bit more forward to a metagame which is actually fun and tolerable to play. If we ever get to a place where Gliscor is banned and Hazards are actually removable, I hope it gets tested soon after.

One thing I will quickly touch upon is Gliscor's good points. apart from burying players with Spikes, I actually do enjoy its presence. We've had a lot of power creep and having a defensive wall that doesn't need to ever tera for the most part while providing utility and having great resists is incredible and something I feel has been sorely missing. I do feel losing that will open the hole further in terms of defensive options for numerous threats especially due to its ability to be immune to hazards.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

*Any posts along these lines will be deleted

i hope this wasn't an empty promise. people are a lot less likely to ignore the "don't talk about it" provision if it's actually enforced and there are real consequences (like, for example, losing one's ability to post in the voting thread)

 

[RS25802580]

I believe Gliscor deserves a ban. While I didn’t fully agree with the order of suspects (looking at you, Big Cheese), what matters is that Gliscor is getting suspected now, and it is no doubt broken in the current meta. Gliscor spikes have made the hazards scene more oppressive than ever this gen.

Right now there are really only two viable/splashable hazard removers in the meta, which are Tusk and Cinderace. As a spiker with access to knock/toxic and poison heal, Gliscor has an unprecedented ability to cripple and punish both of these removers while retaining excellent longevity over the course of the match. There are effectively no splashable removers in the current meta that can deal with Gliscor. That makes it banworthy in my view.

Compare Glisc to the repertoire of pre-DLC1 setters. Offensive setters like Hamurott and Meow had immensely worse longevity. Bulky setters like Ting Lu lacked the tools (knock, toxic) to cripple Tusk/Ace. Compared to these mons, Glisc is superior at reliably setting spikes over the course of the match and suppressing removal counterplay.

If Gliscor didn’t get spikes this gen, it would be fine. If Spikes Gliscor was present in a meta with removers like Tapu Fini, Taunt Torn-T, and a more reliable Corviknight, it would probably be fine. But the situational combination of new tools and a removal-suppressed generation makes Gliscor absolutely problematic in the current meta.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Imma make this short but sweet.

Gliscor has an excellent niche, but it’s only broken due to the envoirment around it.

I will not be mentioning the “envoirment” because I think a lot of people know that I’m referring to a spesific pokemon that also begins with a G. I will however be talking about how to deal with gliscor & why I think it’s not that bad.

I belive that Taunt & Trick are a good countermeasure to Gliscor personally. Whenever I run a team with Wellspring or Manaphy, I never have a problem with Gliscor. I’ve also seen Gliscor’s defensive niche exploited due to how often people pair pokemon up to annoy it.

I also feel like we’re in a state where whenever we ban a pokemon, something else becomes broken.

For these reasons. I’ll be voting no ban personally.

so you start off by saying it's broken due to the current competitive climate (or "envoirment", as you call it—not sure why, gardevoir is nowhere to be seen), then you spend the rest of the post saying you don't have problems with it and end by saying not to ban it? if it's broken, ban it. doesn't matter why it's broken, that's not a factor in the test

 

[LovelyLuna]

Multiple posts talking about how to not mention Gholdengo

People talk about Gholdengo..

If you consider Gliscor ban worthy right now, we get it banned, then Gholdengo may be suspected later and could also banned. Even if Gliscor is unbanned after that, it's fine. The majority, or at least the people who voted on the survey, find Gliscor the bigger problem and that's why it's being suspected right now.

 

[LovelyLuna]

What We mean is that gliscor is the product of gholdengo's brokenness and gliscor Cant be considered broken w/o ghold and ghold is an argument in wether Or Not ban glisc

I kind of responded to this already, Gliscor got more support on the survey, it's getting suspected first.
Post #2 is also a detailed version of what I've said, there's really no need to talk about how broken Gholdengo is.

 

[Roshino]

I must say that I entirely disagree with the whole patience thing. You see, though Gliscor punishes overcommitment (Protect scouts intent incredibly easily), it also requires you to deal large amounts of damage to it since anything less just doesn't cut it, and gets shrugged off.
Furthermore, as mentioned by other folks, it is immune to status, Knock Off, and can repeatedly switch on hazards - all methods used by what I would call patient players. So much so that it is both known as a great stallmon and ALSO as a great stallbreaker (not to mention its versatility with incredible movepool).

Now, when it comes to its supposed dependency on other aspects of the meta, here's something I said the other day to avoid repeating myself:

While I do agree with most of this, I suggest a truckload of care when overthinking about future implications when voting on a suspect or similar. There was the Kingambit suspect and whilst most people agree that Tera is a big part of the reason why it is busted (I'm using word of mouth here, but I believe someone mentioned it has over 40% usage in high elo?), the suspect itself was a close vote, in which a non-negligible amount of voters attempted to exercise restraint in hopes that Tera would be banned. Now we are likely stuck with it until DLC2 at least, perhaps more.

My main worry is we do something similar this time - letting Gliscor go expecting a Gholdengo suspect and ban, which may not happen.

If I get my reqs, I'll vote ban for sure

edit: grammar

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i'm going to increase the font size since so many people are clearly having difficulty reading the posts saying we should focus on gliscor:

can we just, for a few days, pretend that airplanes in the night sky are shooting stars this suspect will be the only meta development for the rest of time? that there will be no dlc2, no action on ghold, no action on tera, no action on spikes, nothing except this suspect, here and now? that's how you're supposed to view a suspect. nothing else is certain or inevitable. the only thing that matters is what's happening now, not what might happen in the future. that is how suspects are supposed to be looked at. if you're voting a certain way because of anything except gliscor itself, you are doing it wrong.

context for future readers: there were multiple pages of people complaining that gholdengo should be suspected instead

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

gliscor itself isn't problematic as it is a tocic staller Just like Other gens. Its access to spikes in a meta where hazard are unremovable is Not a sigb of brokenness as it is caused by ANOTHER POKÉ

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

gliscor itself isn't problematic as it is a tocic staller Just like Other gens. Its access to spikes in a meta where hazard are unremovable is Not a sigb of brokenness as it is caused by ANOTHER POKÉ

i'm genuinely not certain whether you understand how cause and effect work in competitive pokemon. gliscor's access to spikes is not caused by another mon, it's caused by the fact that game freak gave it spikes
(also, are you ok? do you need, like, a new keyboard or something? i can recommend you some speech-to-text software if you're having actual trouble typing)

 

[poiuygfd]

i am very sick of people throwing around the "b-but it's gholdengo's fault that gliscor's spikes don't go away!" as if that suddenly makes everything else the mon does ok. does counterplay exist? maybe, but so what? ursa bloodmoon had some level of counterplay, roaring moon had some level of counterplay, even firepon had counterplay, that doesn't make them ok pokemon when they invalidate most of the tier and force specific niche counterplay. the same applies to gliscor, most of the counterplay boils down to stuff that just isn't that viable in an ou setting, its able to force so much progress be it through toxic, knock off or earthquake, getting tons of permanent passive reliable recovery where recovery moves have drastically reduced pp and knock off is everywhere to eliminate leftovers, its immune to status, has a great defensive typing, can slot in moves like u-turn for momentum or taunt for mons like corv, and of course that's just the defensive set.

even if you prepare your team specifically to be able to handle the defensive set (which already demonstrates it warps team building so much you have to build specifically around it) they might just break out the offensive set that eats the defensive set's answers for breakfast and sweeps. its extremely versatile to the point where countering every set all at once is pretty much impossible, kind of like valiant (which imo is already a questionable mon in its own right) but also its one of the most problematic mons for the hazard issue too. even if ghold goes and corv becomes relevant again, gliscor is so tanky it can just come back in on the field later down the line because it never dies and can set more spikes up. it also has the option to run stealth rock or toxic spikes if you'd rather. and of course, in matchups where its typing can be exploited it can tera to completely change its matchups too.

please, i ask people whose reason for voting no ban is as stupid as something like "well it wasn't broken in gens 7 and earlier and powercreep has only gotten worse so clearly it can't be broken now" or "smogon players are just lazy, just adapt bro" to seriously reconsider their argument and take a good, long look at the mon in question, not in the context of any other meta but in the context of this meta. also if your argument is "just adapt" then i ask you, why don't you "just adapt" to gholdengo? it has counterplay too, so clearly it's fine, right?

tldr: gliscor is warping the meta and team building to an unhealthy degree, is way more than just a bulky hazard setter and absolutely deserves to be banned. also please shut up about people just "not adapting" cause you can make that flimsy argument about literally any mon. fucking miraidon has counterplay technically speaking that doesn't mean its ok.

 

[njnp]

Cleaned up some posts, lets attempt to keep things on topic

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

(also, are you ok? do you need, like, a new keyboard or something? i can recommend you some speech-to-text software if you're having actual trouble typing)

I'm on phone so the keyboard is Too small

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I'm on phone so the keyboard is Too small

that's fair, phone keyboards did only just recently start getting to the level of "accessible to normal human fingers"

"well it wasn't broken in gens 7 and earlier and powercreep has only gotten worse so clearly it can't be broken now"

i legitimately believe that anyone using this as their argument hasn't played a single game of post-dlc ou or even looked at gliscor's movepool. like, i can understand how people might not grasp some of the subtler ways gliscor's been buffed, like how the combination of power creep and dexit has all but eliminated most viable ice-types and even the few that remain are dwindling in usage, or how the recovery pp nerf makes a mon that can stall for a much longer period of time with a higher-pp move like protect far more valuable than it used to be. i get how people can miss little details like that. but do they not at least see spikes? do they not understand how it didn't have spikes before and it has them now? did they go into a thread full of people talking about how easy it is for gliscor to set spikes and just not read any of the posts? i'm baffled that this argument was used even once, let alone multiple times

 

[LovelyLuna]

does counterplay exist? maybe, but so what? ursa bloodmoon had some level of counterplay, roaring moon had some level of counterplay, even firepon had counterplay, that doesn't make them ok pokemon when they invalidate most of the tier and force specific niche counterplay. the same applies to gliscor, most of the counterplay boils down to stuff that just isn't that viable in an ou setting.

Don't get me wrong, very fair points and I can understand how frustrating some posts can be, some arguments paying 0 attention to the meta, but this part in particular bothers me. I don't think you have to go out of your way and use pokemon unviable other than checking Gliscor, the same way the other mentioned pokemon need. Looking at usage or vr, you'll find good pokemon that do well into Gliscor (i.e, Mana). At least I'm sure you don't think Gliscor never needs to switch in a match, and that there are pokemon that beat/force the pokemon out.

Noteworthy that I don't play often, anyone is free to correct me

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Don't get me wrong, very fair points and I can understand how frustrating some posts can be, some arguments paying 0 attention to the meta, but this part in particular bothers me. I don't think you have to go out of your way and use pokemon unviable other than checking Gliscor, the same way the other mentioned pokemon need. Looking at usage or vr, you'll find good pokemon that do well into Gliscor (i.e, Mana). At least I'm sure you don't think Gliscor never needs to switch in a match, and that there are pokemon that beat/force the pokemon out.

Noteworthy that I don't play often, anyone is free to correct me

this is technically true, there are mons that check it in the traditional sense of switching into it and threatening it out. however, gliscor's access to stuff like toxic, spikes, toxic spikes, stealth rock, knock off, and u-turn mean that it has many different ways to still make progress or generate momentum in the face of these checks if played correctly (and, because of how braindead easy this mon is to use, sometimes even if played wrong). a lot of things check gliscor until it turns from a scorpion into a crab and suddenly it resists your ice beam instead of dying to it, and now you're toxic'd and have to switch out

 

[Chaabi]

I will be voting Ban on Gliscor

Gliscor is simply a horrible presence to have in the game, very few mons capable of threatening Gliscor actually want to switch directly into it, as they really don't want to get Knocked or be Toxic'd due to their limited longevity, and that would be a somewhat okay(?) dynamic if it wasn't for the lack of tools to bring those mons safely against Gliscor, there is no splashable mon that can be used as a pivot against a Gliscor (without counting Tera, which is a terrible thing to waste to just pivot vs Gliscor let's be honest) except for your own Gliscor, which is not a good sign.
You also cannot count on Choice Items to put a dent on Gliscor, as it will scout what move you'll use with Protect and then switch into an appropriate mon of choice, so it limits your options even more in that regard.

Playing patiently against it isn't a viable strategy either, as it'll win this battle with its access to Knock Off, Toxic and Spikes, basically forcing them to click their very PP limited recovery moves, putting them in uncomfortable positions, or outright beating them.

And it's not like you can do the same to it either, as it doesn't care about Knock Off once its Toxic Orb is used (which it basically always will because Protect), immune to Spikes with its stellar defensive typing, all that while being immune to status.

I could also talk about how versatile it is, making it even harder to build and play around it properly, but I think other people have and will talk about that better than I could.

tl;dr: Gliscor is a pain to switch into without putting yourself at great disadvantage and thus has very little means of reliable counterplay, limiting options in the builder, making it a toxic presence to have in today's metagame.

 

[poiuygfd]

Don't get me wrong, very fair points and I can understand how frustrating some posts can be, some arguments paying 0 attention to the meta, but this part in particular bothers me. I don't think you have to go out of your way and use pokemon unviable other than checking Gliscor, the same way the other mentioned pokemon need. Looking at usage or vr, you'll find good pokemon that do well into Gliscor (i.e, Mana). At least I'm sure you don't think Gliscor never needs to switch in a match, and that there are pokemon that beat/force the pokemon out.

you do raise a good point, and perhaps my point was a little overblown due to my frustration at people's non-arguments, gliscor does have more conventional, ou-viable checks than the other mons listed, but as others have also stated not many of these really like having to actually come in on gliscor and take a knock off or toxic which will cripple them for the rest of the game, not to mention the potential for gliscor to tera and completely flip its matchups, perhaps not to the extent that something like kingambit is infamous for but it is still something gliscor can do very effectively to get out of an otherwise disadvantageous matchup.

 

[LovelyLuna]

this is technically true, there are mons that check it in the traditional sense of switching into it and threatening it out. however, gliscor's access to stuff like toxic, spikes, toxic spikes, stealth rock, knock off, and u-turn mean that it has many different ways to still make progress or generate momentum in the face of these checks if played correctly (and, because of how braindead easy this mon is to use, sometimes even if played wrong). a lot of things check gliscor until it turns from a scorpion into a crab and suddenly it resists your ice beam instead of dying to it, and now you're toxic'd and have to switch out

Gliscor can definitely force progress but I find that a lot of pokemon can do that, weather it's defensive pokemon through status/knock, or offensive pokemon chipping their checks. I think if the opponent plays correctly, they will do fine vs Gliscor. It has enough checks in the tier that you don't have to use bad pokemon or moveset to beat Gliscor. I also don't think the pokemon can save you from getting outplayed, even if easy to use. Tera can definitely get it out of some situations, things like Mana will answer it regardless and it does lose things like the hazard resistant typing, making it easier to deal with unless it's an endgame.

 

[LovelyLuna]

you do raise a good point, and perhaps my point was a little overblown due to my frustration at people's non-arguments, gliscor does have more conventional, ou-viable checks than the other mons listed, but as others have also stated not many of these really like having to actually come in on gliscor and take a knock off or toxic which will cripple them for the rest of the game, not to mention the potential for gliscor to tera and completely flip its matchups, perhaps not to the extent that something like kingambit is infamous for but it is still something gliscor can do very effectively to get out of an otherwise disadvantageous matchup.

This just seems to apply to other pokemon to me, they will usually have options to force progress if they're good and Tera will let them push past things they wouldn't otherwise, notably coming with an opportunity cost, especially for Gliscor, who loses its amazing typing.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Gliscor is broken..

Yes... you do not have to use bad pokemon to beat it... but the presence it has on the meta is negative. First of all our removal option great tusk really sucks into it unless its running spinner and good luck if you are defensive and they are phys def... they can eat the hit and just screw with you. Knock gliscor and toxic gliscor do share different answers but those moves are both excelent moves that gliscor can viably run without much cost

"I think if the opponent plays correctly, they will do fine vs Gliscor."

And what if my opponent is also playing well with gliscor and is able to just keep spikes up and make sure great tusk has the most painful time spinning. Running 6 boots shouldn't be an answer, so is running worry seed amoonguss, or running double removal to just be safe vs gliscor hazard stack... you shouldnt be running such teams to just not suffer vs it.

All the sample teams show that you either run
- a lot of boots on a team making so that spikes have a minimal impact on y
- run double removal to help vs gliscor even using smth as maushold or court change cind which struggles to switch into it even and has to come in later in the game to try to remove it.
- Have an offensive asf team to pressure gliscor or to make sure that those spikes arent generating as much value as they like by taking advantage of it with things like encore azu, tera flying
- Running your own hazard stack team to make sure against gliscor you can guarante your own hazards

What about this is healthy for the meta? This just shows how much adaptation it takes to run to deal with it or to be fine vs it... What did it add to the meta by being here? Sure it may be "balanced" in that its not 6-0ing teams but gliscor sure does show how much a support pokemon can take over a meta and strangehold it.