np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 9 - Let It Go

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SpritePony said:
https://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sv/kyurem/
Ice Shard isn't there, I'll give you that one, that's on me misremembering shit. But Outrage is still there, Level 72.
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The point is that a Pokemon having a good movepool does not instantly quality it for having 4mss. Nobody is using Dragon Claw, Zen Headbutt, Iron Head, Flash Cannon, Psychic, Shadow Claw, or Shadow Ball on Kyurem. Ice + Ground hits the vast majority of the tier and that is why it is so good.
 
Finchinator said:
The point is that a Pokemon having a good movepool does not instantly quality it for having 4mss. Nobody is using Dragon Claw, Zen Headbutt, Iron Head, Flash Cannon, Psychic, Shadow Claw, or Shadow Ball on Kyurem. Ice + Ground hits the vast majority of the tier and that is why it is so good.
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Yet, you still want a Dragon STAB, potential Tera coverage, DD, Sub... That's still six moves in a 4 slot mechanic.
 
SpritePony said:
Yet, you still want a Dragon STAB, potential Tera coverage, DD, Sub... That's still six moves in a 4 slot mechanic.
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You tend to see a few viable sets:
  • Boots with Beam / Freeze Dry / Earth Power / Draco Meteor or Scale Shot (you can occasionally see Rock Slide or Substitute, but neither is a need and it is hardly strapped for slots since it has coverage for the entire tier)
  • Specs with Beam / Freeze Dry / Earth Power / Draco Meteor (you rarely see Blizzard when paired with GKing Chilly Reception, but definitely not strapped for options
  • DD with DD / Icicle Spear / Scale Shot / Tera Blast (with options for Fire, Electric, and Ground even)
When you combine every single set, you have too many moves, but each individual set is pretty well-covered within 4 moves. I do not mean to beat a dead horse, but I think you have a misunderstanding of what "4mss" is because if we use this thinking, then any Pokemon with multiple movesets suddenly has it -- and that's not how it works.

Kyurem is a good Tera user, but no set is too dependent upon it -- DD is the least common variant and the most Tera dependent for sure, but even then it is not drastic enough to be a major cost factor and burden on the team itself.
 
Finchinator said:
You tend to see a few viable sets:
  • Boots with Beam / Freeze Dry / Earth Power / Draco Meteor or Scale Shot (you can occasionally see Rock Slide or Substitute, but neither is a need and it is hardly strapped for slots since it has coverage for the entire tier)
  • Specs with Beam / Freeze Dry / Earth Power / Draco Meteor (you rarely see Blizzard when paired with GKing Chilly Reception, but definitely not strapped for options
  • DD with DD / Icicle Spear / Scale Shot / Tera Blast (with options for Fire, Electric, and Ground even)
When you combine every single set, you have too many moves, but each individual set is pretty well-covered within 4 moves. I do not mean to beat a dead horse, but I think you have a misunderstanding of what "4mss" is because if we use this thinking, then any Pokemon with multiple movesets suddenly has it -- and that's not how it works.

Kyurem is a good Tera user, but no set is too dependent upon it -- DD is the least common variant and the most Tera dependent for sure, but even then it is not drastic enough to be a major cost factor and burden on the team itself.
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Let me give you both sets that I used today, and MAYBE you'll see where I am coming from (or just y'know, drag my ass through the dirt still.)

Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Timid Nature | Tera Ground
252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 4 Def
Ice Beam
Freeze-Dry
Draco Meteor
Earth Power

Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Jolly Nature | Tera Fire
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 Def
Icicle Spear
Scale Shot
Tera Blast
Dragon Dance

First set was ran on a Webs oriented team. It generally outperformed the DD Dice set, but still had issues against Boots/Flying/Levitate users. The lower speed was always a problem, unless coming in on something that took the Webs reduction or was naturally slower than itself.

Second set was on a more standard "balance" team style that I use. It could handle MAYBE one a half mons, but if the opponent had ANY kind of setup mon, Kyurem was either totally deadweight or entirely reliant on its Unaware partner -- which didn't always work out well. I committed Tera on this set far more often than the Boots set, just to TRY and get a DD off.

Sure, having both Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry on a set is not the best of forms, but the additional damage on an obvious resisted switch is worth it. But if you really want to argue having both is bad, then look at the list of other Special Attacks Kyurem gets and tell me which one fits best. Please, I'll wait.

I found Kyurem to be mid at best for me. Very difficult to get in safely, scared of hazards, scared of many threats in and out of the tier.
 
SpritePony said:
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im going to completely ignore the meat of the post and im also not going to nitpick it like others are. i am more curious on how any of this applies to the main issue with kyurem being the building restraint it puts on builder. from a purely ingame perspective kyurem may potentially seem underwhelming to some considering the meta for 85%, including right now, has been geared towards offense. If you are playing ladder you are going to run into offense and weather the majority of your games, rain is the only real playstyle here that has a really really hard time with it more than your average really good pokemon. i feel this problem extends past something you can come to a conclusion to in a few ladder games.

the issue really comes when you sit back and actually try to build the tier, i have spent so much time in builder recently and kyurem effects the direction im forced to go with my teams so much to the point where it is actually demotivating. traditional offense is pretty much forced to run volcarona most of the team, while the pokemon is broken in its own right, being "forced" to run something is never fun. BO can only really run gking comfortably. Balance has the most options with volcarona and gking being viable picks with moltres being a little more nicher but an option. stall runs blissey so its mostly fine. there are about four pokemon that can "comfortably" check this guy. but they dont even check him that well, volcarona hates draco and isnt the best from a balance perspective, gking does not like the blizzard, all of these pokemon absolutely hate knock off which is not a move kyurem gets but a move that all kyurem teams should have. If you think about the problem and watch recent tour games such as spl you will realize how deep the roots run in the metagame better than just playing a few ladder games and judging it off its speed tier.

to put it simply, kyurem makes building not fun at all and limits structures into specific directions. removing it gives the metagame more room to grow. problematic repercussions that come up can be dealt with afterwards if it means giving teams more room to be diverse.
 
Baloor said:
im going to completely ignore the meat of the post and im also not going to nitpick it like others are. i am more curious on how any of this applies to the main issue with kyurem being the building restraint it puts on builder. from a purely ingame perspective kyurem may potentially seem underwhelming to some considering the meta for 85%, including right now, has been geared towards offense. If you are playing ladder you are going to run into offense and weather the majority of your games, rain is the only real playstyle here that has a really really hard time with it more than your average really good pokemon. i feel this problem extends past something you can come to a conclusion to in a few ladder games.

the issue really comes when you sit back and actually try to build the tier, i have spent so much time in builder recently and kyurem effects the direction im forced to go with my teams so much to the point where it is actually demotivating. traditional offense is pretty much forced to run volcarona most of the team, while the pokemon is broken in its own right, being "forced" to run something is never fun. BO can only really run gking comfortably. Balance has the most options with volcarona and gking being viable picks with moltres being a little more nicher but an option. stall runs blissey so its mostly fine. there are about four pokemon that can "comfortably" check this guy. but they dont even check him that well, volcarona hates draco and isnt the best from a balance perspective, gking does not like the blizzard, all of these pokemon absolutely hate knock off which is not a move kyurem gets but a move that all kyurem teams should have. If you think about the problem and watch recent tour games such as spl you will realize how deep the roots run in the metagame better than just playing a few ladder games and judging it off its speed tier.

to put it simply, kyurem makes building not fun at all and limits structures into specific directions. removing it gives the metagame more room to grow. problematic repercussions that come up can be dealt with afterwards if it means giving teams more room to be diverse.
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I have literally had no issues facing down Kyurem. Probably because of the fact that a lot of my teams tend to be more flexible and can handle something like Kyurem. Playing with AND against it allows you to see both sides of the equation, and a lot of people lack that insight.
 
SpritePony said:
I have literally had no issues facing down Kyurem. Probably because of the fact that a lot of my teams tend to be more flexible and can handle something like Kyurem. Playing with AND against it allows you to see both sides of the equation, and a lot of people lack that insight.
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dude how do you not understand that what makes Kyurem unhealthy is its restricting effect on teambuilding? Just because you run bunch of teams with Slowking-G doesn't mean Kyurem can't be banworthy. Baloor's reply was crystal clear and you are still missing the point.
 
SpritePony said:
I have literally had no issues facing down Kyurem. Probably because of the fact that a lot of my teams tend to be more flexible and can handle something like Kyurem. Playing with AND against it allows you to see both sides of the equation, and a lot of people lack that insight.
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I don't understand how this is a appropriate response to my post or refutes anything I said. Are you trying to imply that I do not play the tier enough to have insight into playing with and against Kyurem lol or that my teams are poorly made? I am kinda confused what you are getting at.
 
Kyurem is really interesting to me. I'm pretty mixed on the mon as is. I think the best set is def specs with the optional sets of scarf/special boots/physical loaded dice being good surprises for when the opponent is expecting specs. I mainly laddered with specs so I'll give my opinion there.

Idk its kinda gross. Specs just clicks buttons in a lot of games, mainly Ice beam which surprisingly few things in the tier want to switch into (especially since the threat of freeze dry is very real). You'd think Ghold or Kingambit would help deal with this but I've seen people be very hesitant at going into either of these since a lot of Gholds want to keep their air balloon and Kingambits want to be super healthy for endgame cheese sweeps. Most steel types are good answers from what I've found, earth power kinda feels ass to click in a lot of games. Besides that some things can take 2 hits but its usually way too sketch for anyone to want to stay in on for long, so you pretty much just get to claim a mon. Dirge does ok vs it.

On the other hand, this thing is pretty hard to get out imo. Rocks exist and are an obstacle but really i just don't see great situations to get it out usually. It's kind of pitifully slow and most of the things slower than it either have coverage to hit it/have priority/have pivot moves. Pivot moves are the big thing since if i want to get this out on Glowking/Gliscor/Corv they disappear so fast. In a matchup where you have to face a good number of things that outspeed Kyurem the boy feels entirely useless. Everything and their mother has a move that can hit this guy or pivot out it feels and the only exception is maybe just ting lu, who deserves a bully imo. I don't totally mind kyurem being in the tier if its a good option to break team structures but is hard to work around in the first place... but again on the other hand I'm not sure there are any true consistent checks to Kyurem short of using our Kingambit's early most games we see it. Or yknow just make the right play bro :) When I see Kyurem I never go Iron Crown on Earth Power or Hawlucha on Ice Beam. I simply just make the right play.

So TLDR I'm mixed I think he can be a little hard to get out in a number of games but when you get him out he's insane. Wouldn't really mind if he stays or goes. I probably won't get reqs so I don't think I'll need to decide. Just wanted to throw my thoughts out there in case anyone else thinks the same way.
 
gregdawiz said:
So TLDR I'm mixed I think he can be a little hard to get out in a number of games but when you get him out he's insane. Wouldn't really mind if he stays or goes. I probably won't get reqs so I don't think I'll need to decide. Just wanted to throw my thoughts out there in case anyone else thinks the same way.
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Totally in the same boat as you are. The only reason i could see this thing staying is the fact its so hard to get onto the field. Thing is, when it hits the field, it clicks buttons and suddenly half of your teams missing. It's sheer strength in numbers is absurd, considering it can comfortably OHKO/2HKO most of the tier. It requires a lot of movement to outplay when it is on the field, but preventing it to get onto the field is actually somewhat easy; it hates hazards, and the sets that use HDB are usually slower to get going.

The thing that personally takes kyurem over the edge is its set variety. If you're looking at a kyurem on the other side of the field, its somewhat hard to guess what set its running. This thing is the potential man of OU, being able to run all kinds of breaker and revenge killer sets, its genuinely nasty. You might've predicted a specs kyurem, and then boom, loaded dice.
 
Finchinator said:
  • Specs with Beam / Freeze Dry / Earth Power / Draco Meteor (you rarely see Blizzard when paired with GKing Chilly Reception, but definitely not strapped for options
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As a small addition to this, I did see someone using trick on specs kyurem (an option that would presumably help scarf sets see viability as well, but that’s besides the point) allowing it to simply ignore whatever check you’re bringing in because it’s likely dependant on its item to not fall apart against it.
 
That_Dwayneee said:
As a small addition to this, I did see someone using trick on specs kyurem (an option that would presumably help scarf sets see viability as well, but that’s besides the point) allowing it to simply ignore whatever check you’re bringing in because it’s likely dependant on its item to not fall apart against it.
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im sorry what? kyurem learns trick? are you tricking me right now?

all seriousness, if kyurem ran trick best believe i'd be the first to abuse the shit out of it.
 
It is always the same. "This mon can do all these things at once". But it rly cannot. In Kyurem's case, it doesn't hit nearly as hard as people are pretending it does.
"Specs draco can beat Volcarona (as if that was true 100% of the time, and as if clicking draco has no drawback), perfect coverage (even though neutral hit isn't menacing), great bulk (but no recovery and weak to hazards), can set up to be a threat (even though its speed is average, it is slower than valiant, roaring moon and boulder after +1, and needs loaded dice to work properly) blablabla".
Kyurem has always been an ok mon, it was RU at one point back in the day, and nothing has changed, just hype or whatever, cause it is versityle.

So, DO NOT BAN.
 
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Marcelloc2 said:
It is always the same. "This mon can do all these things at once". But it rly cannot. In Kyurem's case, it doesn't hit nearly as hard as people are pretending it does.
"Specs draco can beat Volcarona (as if that was true 100% of the time, and as if clicking draco has no drawback), perfect coverage (even though neutral hit isn't menacing), great bulk (but no recovery and weak to hazards), can set up to be a threat (even though its speed is average, it is slower than valiant, roaring moon and boulder after +1, and needs loaded dice to work properly) blablabla".
Kyurem has always been an ok mon, it was RU at one point back in the day, and nothing has changed, just hype or whatever, cause it is versityle.

So, DO NOT BAN.
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Kyurem was RUBL in 7G because he didn't have Freeze Dry, Dragon Dance, Icicle Spear, HDB, or Loaded Dice.
It was RUBL in 8G because people underestimated the potential of this Pokemon with these new moves and items, and also because there were other bigger threats at the time.
Kyurem's ban in 8G, and soon in 9G, is not due to hype but came after long months/weeks of play.
 
Again I shall say my thoughts here. As we all know by now kyurem is a menace it's mostly it's specs set that sets it apart from Bax and we all know how Bax was banned from OU because of loaded dice scale shot granted kyurem is still better at being a special attacker because of its prowess in checking dragons I can see why it's getting suspected again I can't vote but this is all just my thoughts on the suspect. And I totally forgot it was also banned in gen 8 OU because maybe specs or scarf but all in all I can definitely see why kyurem is getting a suspect test. Ice and ground does threaten like half the tier and plus baxcalibur was doing that but with eq kyurem is just doing it with earth power instead .
 
I just got reqs earlier today but to me it is a clear and obvious ban. going into it I assumed that specs was the most obviously broken set and while it still puts a hole in every team that doesn't put a lot of prep into it I think the most broken set is dd loaded dice. Anyone who predicts specs is just fucked when facing it I could constantly bring it on gliscor who would click protect to scout and then just get demolished after the dd you go to any special wall also you are now getting packed up with the tera fire in the back for the steels, it does have a few drawbacks like not ohkoing gambit from full and losing to heatran but at least in my opinion the mon is to strong and offers to many sets to be left in the tier
 
Marcelloc2 said:
It is always the same. "This mon can do all these things at once". But it rly cannot. In Kyurem's case, it doesn't hit nearly as hard as people are pretending it does.
"Specs draco can beat Volcarona (as if that was true 100% of the time, and as if clicking draco has no drawback), perfect coverage (even though neutral hit isn't menacing), great bulk (but no recovery and weak to hazards), can set up to be a threat (even though its speed is average, it is slower than valiant, roaring moon and boulder after +1, and needs loaded dice to work properly) blablabla".
Kyurem has always been an ok mon, it was RU at one point back in the day, and nothing has changed, just hype or whatever, cause it is versityle.

So, DO NOT BAN.
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I feel like every other month I read a Suspect Test thread and see someone say "Variety of sets isn't an argument to ban something", yes it is. It very obviously is to most people, because it creates worse interactions.

If a Pokemon has many sets of pretty equal power, you cannot play around it as well. If you think it's one set so you switch to the Physical Kyurem counter, and it's the Special one, you are probably going to get blown up. Vice versa. Variety in Pokemon absolutely does make individual mons more broken, because if there is not individual Pokemon that can reliably wall most sets, it's going to become essentially impossible to prep adequately for every set.

Not sure why people think bringing up a variety in sets is a fallacy with every suspect test.
 
I am actually rather neutral on this situation, kyurem is a bit hard to defend but a large part of my brain still wants it to stay

whatever the case is, kyurem with roost would have me PRAYING for its demise, i was a small player in gen 8 and i even knew subroost dragon dance kyurem wasn’t an ou level pokemon anymore
 
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