Requesting people to stay on topic and try to make more effort than one liners of little value. If your one line is "yep you right" then just like that post. If your one line is "nope you wrong" then elaborate on that properly. If your one line is a "haha joke" then keep that to yourself.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame np: SV Ubers Stage 4 - Thunderstruck
- Thread starter Aberforth
- Start date
Leaning toward DNB but am currently undecided.
I came into this suspect expecting to vote DNB because I simply did not think Miraidon was broken enough to warrant a ban on paper. And honestly? It never felt disproportionately oppressive in practice, but of course, the vast majority of my games were HO - and I doubt this experience was unique.
Speaking as a relatively casual Ubers player, I quickly got sick of being forced to risk speed ties in almost every game. These speed ties were mainly between Glimmora, Koraidon/Miraidon, and Zacians, a natural outcome of an extremely offensive metagame. I do not think a tier where speed ties that almost always result in someone losing a mon should occur with such frequency. Miraidon bears at least some responsibility for this, given how limited its defensive counterplay is. I suppose relevant questions would be the degree of Miraidon's responsibility and whether the usual severity of losing a speed tie is sufficient for promoting an overall uncompetitive metagame (I've lost a few speed ties, and not all of them were game deciding).
On the other hand, I don't agree with banning a Pokemon because it would subjectively improve the tier, because the scope of this argument could be expanded to encompass much more than just Miraidon. I believe only egregious cases such as Mega Ray and Caly-S deserve to be banned from Ubers, and the gap between Miraidon's brokenness and other threats may be insufficiently large to warrant such action.
I came into this suspect expecting to vote DNB because I simply did not think Miraidon was broken enough to warrant a ban on paper. And honestly? It never felt disproportionately oppressive in practice, but of course, the vast majority of my games were HO - and I doubt this experience was unique.
Speaking as a relatively casual Ubers player, I quickly got sick of being forced to risk speed ties in almost every game. These speed ties were mainly between Glimmora, Koraidon/Miraidon, and Zacians, a natural outcome of an extremely offensive metagame. I do not think a tier where speed ties that almost always result in someone losing a mon should occur with such frequency. Miraidon bears at least some responsibility for this, given how limited its defensive counterplay is. I suppose relevant questions would be the degree of Miraidon's responsibility and whether the usual severity of losing a speed tie is sufficient for promoting an overall uncompetitive metagame (I've lost a few speed ties, and not all of them were game deciding).
On the other hand, I don't agree with banning a Pokemon because it would subjectively improve the tier, because the scope of this argument could be expanded to encompass much more than just Miraidon. I believe only egregious cases such as Mega Ray and Caly-S deserve to be banned from Ubers, and the gap between Miraidon's brokenness and other threats may be insufficiently large to warrant such action.
Last edited:
Reiterating my thoughts here compared to the original Miraidon suspect test, don't have much time but just editing what I said on that initial thread from a couple months ago. Sorry for any typos in advance, this was written on a phone.
I intend on voting ban on Miraidon for numerous reasons, but most notably it comes down to two main factors for me: its sheer power and the diversity it has in its sets and Tera's. Off the top of my head, Miraidon can feasibly run Pivot U-Turn, Specs, Scarf, CM + Taunt (albeit its basically a stall CT) and Double Dance, and can all have diversity in their movesets. On Scarf/Specs, ontop of the double STAB you can run (albeit more niche) Overheat to hit things like Iron Treads (a fake check), but I think the real issue in how diverse it is lies in the Double Dance set. On Double Dance alone, you can go between LO, E-Seed, WP and Leftovers with great effectiveness, can run Draco to nuke some ground checks (it is very niche, but Modest LO +1 Tera Dragon/Stellar Mirai OHKOs Ting-Lu) and Solar Beam works as a Ground type coverage option as well. On top of that, it abuses Tera so well, with Dragon or Electric to bolster its monstrous STABs, or to circumvent it's weaknesses it can pick and choose from Fairy, Ghost, Grass, Normal (granted Normal is kind of fake and super situational, but I have seen it on ladder before but it is ladder so take that with a grain of salt) and Flying. Theres probably something else I'm missing too but it is simply too much to cover for.
I also think it constricts the teambuilder a lot, where archetypes that aren't Stall or Offense often need to have a dedicated checks for it (see the rise in SpDef Arceus-Ground alone, which is a garbage set otherwise) and if not, just need pick one to sack. And for those saying "ah well, bulky Grounds exist!". Any semi-competent player knows that isn't a free switch or check, Max-Max Arceus-Ground takes like 60 from a Draco, and with Pivot Mirai you just switch out where you lose nothing, and your opponent is scrambling to find a switch or check to your Miraidon or what's coming in. Even the bulkiest Ground check it has, Ting-Lu, takes 35 something from Draco then gets U-Turned on (and if not, it just gets U-Turned on to anything that can handle a Ting-Lu). "Checks" like Gliscor can't even come near Miraidon, as any player will not always click Electric STAB into the telegraphed Ground switch in. This also brings me to my next point, which is that it gets too many hits off freely and although accumulating Draco drops isn't ideal, its ability to U-Turn out and prevent setup as well with it's Taunt set has just made it so consistent in the tier. On top of that, you need to account for Double Dance, where in some situations those "checks" turn into straight up set up fodder to Double Dance sets, to which point you need to throw as much priority you have at it as nothing on your team is going to outspeed it.
Another thing Miraidon has promoted in the builder is these cancerous double ground structures that don't do anything except for scare Miraidon on preview to prevent spamming Electro Drift, but then again this doesn't work that well as Miraidon still dominates the tier. These structures usually consist of some combination of Landorus-Therian, Arceus-Ground, Ting-Lu, Iron Treads and Gliscor most commonly, and depending on different teams different pairings work differently, and of course this isn't to say these are all Miraidon checks, but I do believe their usage -- particularly in tandem -- is a product of Miraidon being in the tier, and promotes a sort of unhealthy balance teambuilding where you are forced to slap Grounds on a team just to pray Miraidon doesn't touch you where the sun doesn't shine.
Miraidon can fit on baisically any structure (barring maybe Stall), and I think your at an active disadvantage not taking advantage of it. I haven't been playing the tier for long, but I think I've been playing enough to know that Miraidon isn't remotely healthy, and has made offense much more powerful than it should be. It genuinely baffles me that Miraidon has existed in the tier as long as it has, as it hasn't gained anything notable since release, but continues to be a dominant force with little -- no, actually NO consistent counterplay (even gimmicky counterplay like Iron Treads is actual dead weight on any real team) and an unhealthy presence on the builder and meta.
The biggest change in my opinions since the inital ban vote is I think Pivot Miraidon still reigns supreme, I think Double Dance Solar Beam Miraidon is extremely powerful and slapping a Life Orb on this guy makes it the most disgusting breaker in the tier, being able to easily cleave through literally any special wall with good play. Also I think Overheat Miraidon is much more powerful and a cool option over Taunt given how much more usage Iron Treads is getting, but not much has changed, this guy does the same shit and is still stupid busted and broken.
TL;DR: Miraidon is too strong, gets off to many hits freely, and just pivots out while they have momentum, or can sweep abusing Tera. It's raw strength in conjunction with the sheer versatility with its sets and Tera leaves it with no consistent counterplay, therefore it should be banned
I intend on voting ban on Miraidon for numerous reasons, but most notably it comes down to two main factors for me: its sheer power and the diversity it has in its sets and Tera's. Off the top of my head, Miraidon can feasibly run Pivot U-Turn, Specs, Scarf, CM + Taunt (albeit its basically a stall CT) and Double Dance, and can all have diversity in their movesets. On Scarf/Specs, ontop of the double STAB you can run (albeit more niche) Overheat to hit things like Iron Treads (a fake check), but I think the real issue in how diverse it is lies in the Double Dance set. On Double Dance alone, you can go between LO, E-Seed, WP and Leftovers with great effectiveness, can run Draco to nuke some ground checks (it is very niche, but Modest LO +1 Tera Dragon/Stellar Mirai OHKOs Ting-Lu) and Solar Beam works as a Ground type coverage option as well. On top of that, it abuses Tera so well, with Dragon or Electric to bolster its monstrous STABs, or to circumvent it's weaknesses it can pick and choose from Fairy, Ghost, Grass, Normal (granted Normal is kind of fake and super situational, but I have seen it on ladder before but it is ladder so take that with a grain of salt) and Flying. Theres probably something else I'm missing too but it is simply too much to cover for.
I also think it constricts the teambuilder a lot, where archetypes that aren't Stall or Offense often need to have a dedicated checks for it (see the rise in SpDef Arceus-Ground alone, which is a garbage set otherwise) and if not, just need pick one to sack. And for those saying "ah well, bulky Grounds exist!". Any semi-competent player knows that isn't a free switch or check, Max-Max Arceus-Ground takes like 60 from a Draco, and with Pivot Mirai you just switch out where you lose nothing, and your opponent is scrambling to find a switch or check to your Miraidon or what's coming in. Even the bulkiest Ground check it has, Ting-Lu, takes 35 something from Draco then gets U-Turned on (and if not, it just gets U-Turned on to anything that can handle a Ting-Lu). "Checks" like Gliscor can't even come near Miraidon, as any player will not always click Electric STAB into the telegraphed Ground switch in. This also brings me to my next point, which is that it gets too many hits off freely and although accumulating Draco drops isn't ideal, its ability to U-Turn out and prevent setup as well with it's Taunt set has just made it so consistent in the tier. On top of that, you need to account for Double Dance, where in some situations those "checks" turn into straight up set up fodder to Double Dance sets, to which point you need to throw as much priority you have at it as nothing on your team is going to outspeed it.
Another thing Miraidon has promoted in the builder is these cancerous double ground structures that don't do anything except for scare Miraidon on preview to prevent spamming Electro Drift, but then again this doesn't work that well as Miraidon still dominates the tier. These structures usually consist of some combination of Landorus-Therian, Arceus-Ground, Ting-Lu, Iron Treads and Gliscor most commonly, and depending on different teams different pairings work differently, and of course this isn't to say these are all Miraidon checks, but I do believe their usage -- particularly in tandem -- is a product of Miraidon being in the tier, and promotes a sort of unhealthy balance teambuilding where you are forced to slap Grounds on a team just to pray Miraidon doesn't touch you where the sun doesn't shine.
Miraidon can fit on baisically any structure (barring maybe Stall), and I think your at an active disadvantage not taking advantage of it. I haven't been playing the tier for long, but I think I've been playing enough to know that Miraidon isn't remotely healthy, and has made offense much more powerful than it should be. It genuinely baffles me that Miraidon has existed in the tier as long as it has, as it hasn't gained anything notable since release, but continues to be a dominant force with little -- no, actually NO consistent counterplay (even gimmicky counterplay like Iron Treads is actual dead weight on any real team) and an unhealthy presence on the builder and meta.
The biggest change in my opinions since the inital ban vote is I think Pivot Miraidon still reigns supreme, I think Double Dance Solar Beam Miraidon is extremely powerful and slapping a Life Orb on this guy makes it the most disgusting breaker in the tier, being able to easily cleave through literally any special wall with good play. Also I think Overheat Miraidon is much more powerful and a cool option over Taunt given how much more usage Iron Treads is getting, but not much has changed, this guy does the same shit and is still stupid busted and broken.
TL;DR: Miraidon is too strong, gets off to many hits freely, and just pivots out while they have momentum, or can sweep abusing Tera. It's raw strength in conjunction with the sheer versatility with its sets and Tera leaves it with no consistent counterplay, therefore it should be banned
Also, as a note, I haven't recorded videos in a long time, but if anyone doesn't like reading and wants to see my thoughts (granted from a couple months ago) reiterated through a video, here's a sort of "podcast" type video I recorded a while ago with DBJ2024 about Miraidon and its presence in the tier around the initial suspect test
I'm rather perplexed by this bit. Bans are, in many cases, subjective at their core and it's simply a majority agreeing that something is broken, unhealthy, unbalanced, or some combination thereof. They're done with the intention of improving a tiers balance, competitiveness and/or enjoyment by removing things viewed as problematic/unhealthy. The gap between Miraidon (and Koraidon who is comparable to it) and the rest of the tier is pretty big when it comes to unbalanced factor, and the restraints Miraidon places on building not only pushing defensive teams out while making the tier overly offensive, especially HO focused in recent times is a product of its brokenness. Thus, removing something that has overly warped the tier and driven it to be this way is a step forwards in making the tier better. There's no guarantee this ban alone will solve every issue with Ubers, but there never really is a guarantee that any ban from any tier will solve all issues
Once again, Miraidon is on the chopping block for its numerous war crimes, and once again I am here as a witness to its nuclear bomb esque effects, both in destruction and unhealthiness to its surrounding environment.
While I am not the most experienced player in this tier, especially in its current state, I do have a unique position as someone who'd been playing it casually and watching tournament games since the very beginning of the tier, Pre-Home. And ever since, Miraidon has had a restrictive effect on teambuilding, necessitating bulky grounds that often struggled to check it in the first place while also not contributing much to a team aside from mainly checking Miraidon.
Arceus-Ground: Sp. Def sets are heavily inferior to the Phys Def + CM sets it could have ran since they can act as a soft check to Zac, NDM, Korai, etc. Furthermore, the existence of sets like Life Orb + Tera Grass Solar Beam, Tera Dragon/Stellar Draco make Arceus Ground a shaky check even with Sp. Def investment, especially with hazards up.
Ting-Lu: Called a sleeper shitmon in disguise, and I have to agree. Provides minimal offensive momentum to balance teams, has a massive target on its back from not only Koraidon and Zac, but the aforementioned Miraidon sets, and even the Pivot set, the weakest Miraidon set in terms of firepower, can make significant progress by just clicking Draco Meteor + U-turn into Koraidon or whatever else. Even if you decide to mitigate the hazard vulnerability issue by using boots, it means any and all chip damage sticks to Ting Lu, and that's not good considering Ting-Lu is just barely holding on against Miraidon while Miraidon users find more sets and ways to blow the moose out of the field. It's been 7 months, and in spite of some experimentation, we found no new ways to mitigate Ting-Lu's current issues.
I'd also like to offer up they fact that maybe the lack of innovation in Ting-Lu's sets means that (a. Ting-Lu can't be experimented more with since we've exhausted most of our options already, and (b. that Miraidon being the one players are experimenting and finding new sets with indicates that there is an inherent issue with our defensive options towards it. I'd like to ask the DNB crowd if they can realistically think of a defensive team structure that can AT LEAST soft check all of Pivot, Double Dance, Life Orb + CM/AG, and Choice Specs Miraidon alongside it's teammates. Or why it's been 7 months but player experimentation has instead led to new Miraidon sets instead of ways of beating the damn dragon.
Iron Treads: Hard counters non-Overheat/Solar Beam Mirai. This is basically a Ting-Lu that can pivot, provide hazard control, while being a decent switch in so long as it has significant investment in both Sp. Def and HP, making it theoretically excellent for balance teams. Too bad this thing gets U-turned on forever by pivot sets, the thing it's supposed to hard counter. Or that anybody who remembers Pre-Home metagame remembers to slap on Overheat and wave the thing adieu.
Also this thing can't provide any other defensive utility outside of checking the other sleeper shitmon in Stealth Rock Defensive Arc-Fairy (gets chipped by Dtail too, so you get chipped even then) and Defensive Eternatus. It's really better used in offensive teams looking for temporary reprieve, that can take advantage of Miraidon being forced out or weakening itself with Overheat Sp.Atk drops.
Imo, ironically one of the most consistent checks to Miraidon but only as a short term check. It can't do it long term unless against the right set, and even then it gets U-turned on.
Clodsire: dies to +1 Tera Dragon Draco + LO, 2 Modest LO draco, and a number of other calcs with calm mind. It also just gets 2hkoed naturally by Draco from Timid sets, which can taunt it and make it a sitting duck. Could MAYBE (and this is a MASSIVE STRETCH) work well with another ground, but that leaves you more vulnerable and passive to other big threats like Zacian, Arceus formes, Korai, etc.
The other grounds in the Tier; Groudon, Gliscor, and Lando, can only take one hit form it, if they don't just drop dead. To mention nothing of the fact that all of them die to Modest Life Orb + hazards, a calc that is now realistic to account for. Any other option relies entirely on out speeding and Ohkoing it, which is semi reliable against Life Orb/Specs sets, but not so much against the HDB sets that can pivot in and out forever.
While some of the ban crowd have made hyperbole of Miraidon's potential longevity and nuclear power, myself included, their statements are not so far from reality. Miraidon has Uber's level bulk, allowing it to take even a Super-Effective uninvested Judgement from Arceus formes, meaning it's sets have a lot of wiggle room against defensive pokemon. Those that can OHKO it on the spot get smashed themselves, needing to speed tie, use a sash to live and retaliate (which has become a legitamate option for some daring players, even in tournaments) or lock themselves with scarf and potentially lose the game.
While Miraidon is not as broken or overcentralizing as Calyrex-S from both gens and Mega Ray, and provides some genuine benefits, like it's HDB sets being a good offensive check to Ho-Oh, it is still immensely unhealthy for the tier by forcing suboptimal pokemon and EV investments that often don't even work due to Miraidon's teammates, it's own power and flexibility. It's either that or you just play "Electro Drift + Draco Meteor" simulator.
While it would be bearable if it was the only culprit in the tier, Koraidon, Zacian, and a host of other monsters existing in the same tier as it makes the negative impact of Miraidon even worse.
Furthermore, the metagame benefits it brings as a special nuke and offensive Ho-Oh check can be replicated by the likes of Kyogre, Eternatus, Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, etc; all of which become much better post Miraidon ban.
While banning it won't magically remedy every problem of the tier (cough cough Scale Shot), I believe that for the metagame to advance and grow further, Miraidon itself should go. Whether Koraidon is still unhealthy is a bridge that ought to be crossed once Miraidon's effects on the tier are not convoluting the discussion.
Hence, I shall be voting BAN.
While I am not the most experienced player in this tier, especially in its current state, I do have a unique position as someone who'd been playing it casually and watching tournament games since the very beginning of the tier, Pre-Home. And ever since, Miraidon has had a restrictive effect on teambuilding, necessitating bulky grounds that often struggled to check it in the first place while also not contributing much to a team aside from mainly checking Miraidon.
Arceus-Ground: Sp. Def sets are heavily inferior to the Phys Def + CM sets it could have ran since they can act as a soft check to Zac, NDM, Korai, etc. Furthermore, the existence of sets like Life Orb + Tera Grass Solar Beam, Tera Dragon/Stellar Draco make Arceus Ground a shaky check even with Sp. Def investment, especially with hazards up.
Ting-Lu: Called a sleeper shitmon in disguise, and I have to agree. Provides minimal offensive momentum to balance teams, has a massive target on its back from not only Koraidon and Zac, but the aforementioned Miraidon sets, and even the Pivot set, the weakest Miraidon set in terms of firepower, can make significant progress by just clicking Draco Meteor + U-turn into Koraidon or whatever else. Even if you decide to mitigate the hazard vulnerability issue by using boots, it means any and all chip damage sticks to Ting Lu, and that's not good considering Ting-Lu is just barely holding on against Miraidon while Miraidon users find more sets and ways to blow the moose out of the field. It's been 7 months, and in spite of some experimentation, we found no new ways to mitigate Ting-Lu's current issues.
I'd also like to offer up they fact that maybe the lack of innovation in Ting-Lu's sets means that (a. Ting-Lu can't be experimented more with since we've exhausted most of our options already, and (b. that Miraidon being the one players are experimenting and finding new sets with indicates that there is an inherent issue with our defensive options towards it. I'd like to ask the DNB crowd if they can realistically think of a defensive team structure that can AT LEAST soft check all of Pivot, Double Dance, Life Orb + CM/AG, and Choice Specs Miraidon alongside it's teammates. Or why it's been 7 months but player experimentation has instead led to new Miraidon sets instead of ways of beating the damn dragon.
Iron Treads: Hard counters non-Overheat/Solar Beam Mirai. This is basically a Ting-Lu that can pivot, provide hazard control, while being a decent switch in so long as it has significant investment in both Sp. Def and HP, making it theoretically excellent for balance teams. Too bad this thing gets U-turned on forever by pivot sets, the thing it's supposed to hard counter. Or that anybody who remembers Pre-Home metagame remembers to slap on Overheat and wave the thing adieu.
Also this thing can't provide any other defensive utility outside of checking the other sleeper shitmon in Stealth Rock Defensive Arc-Fairy (gets chipped by Dtail too, so you get chipped even then) and Defensive Eternatus. It's really better used in offensive teams looking for temporary reprieve, that can take advantage of Miraidon being forced out or weakening itself with Overheat Sp.Atk drops.
Imo, ironically one of the most consistent checks to Miraidon but only as a short term check. It can't do it long term unless against the right set, and even then it gets U-turned on.
Clodsire: dies to +1 Tera Dragon Draco + LO, 2 Modest LO draco, and a number of other calcs with calm mind. It also just gets 2hkoed naturally by Draco from Timid sets, which can taunt it and make it a sitting duck. Could MAYBE (and this is a MASSIVE STRETCH) work well with another ground, but that leaves you more vulnerable and passive to other big threats like Zacian, Arceus formes, Korai, etc.
The other grounds in the Tier; Groudon, Gliscor, and Lando, can only take one hit form it, if they don't just drop dead. To mention nothing of the fact that all of them die to Modest Life Orb + hazards, a calc that is now realistic to account for. Any other option relies entirely on out speeding and Ohkoing it, which is semi reliable against Life Orb/Specs sets, but not so much against the HDB sets that can pivot in and out forever.
While some of the ban crowd have made hyperbole of Miraidon's potential longevity and nuclear power, myself included, their statements are not so far from reality. Miraidon has Uber's level bulk, allowing it to take even a Super-Effective uninvested Judgement from Arceus formes, meaning it's sets have a lot of wiggle room against defensive pokemon. Those that can OHKO it on the spot get smashed themselves, needing to speed tie, use a sash to live and retaliate (which has become a legitamate option for some daring players, even in tournaments) or lock themselves with scarf and potentially lose the game.
While Miraidon is not as broken or overcentralizing as Calyrex-S from both gens and Mega Ray, and provides some genuine benefits, like it's HDB sets being a good offensive check to Ho-Oh, it is still immensely unhealthy for the tier by forcing suboptimal pokemon and EV investments that often don't even work due to Miraidon's teammates, it's own power and flexibility. It's either that or you just play "Electro Drift + Draco Meteor" simulator.
While it would be bearable if it was the only culprit in the tier, Koraidon, Zacian, and a host of other monsters existing in the same tier as it makes the negative impact of Miraidon even worse.
Furthermore, the metagame benefits it brings as a special nuke and offensive Ho-Oh check can be replicated by the likes of Kyogre, Eternatus, Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, etc; all of which become much better post Miraidon ban.
While banning it won't magically remedy every problem of the tier (cough cough Scale Shot), I believe that for the metagame to advance and grow further, Miraidon itself should go. Whether Koraidon is still unhealthy is a bridge that ought to be crossed once Miraidon's effects on the tier are not convoluting the discussion.
Hence, I shall be voting BAN.
Last edited:
I wanted to address this real quick, because it contains an assumption that is implicitly present in many pro-ban posts, which is that banning Miraidon will lead to a more diverse, balanced, and healthy metagame. I think all of us know that we have no real idea what the consequences of a Miraidon ban are, but I'm going to put forth the argument that the resulting metagame from such a ban might actually be less diverse, balanced, and/or healthy despite Miraidon being an obviously centralizing force.
Assumption 1: Banning Miraidon will lead to a more diverse metagame
I thnk the opposite is the case. Looking through the VR thread, there are at least 3 Pokemon who are enabled by Electric terrain (Eseed Sneasler, Iron Treads, Iron Bundle), and there are ate last 3 additional Pokemon that become signifyingly less viable in a Miraidon-less metagame (Ting-lu, Clodsire, Blissey); I'm not sure what pokemon a Miraidon ban directly improves the viability of--maybe Zekrom and Arceus-Electric? Regardless, I would expect a Miraidon ban to decrease, not increase, the number of viable mons on the VR thread, indicating a less diverse metagame. In particular, the loss of Iron Treads as a viable option means that Hazard removal is ever-harder to include on teams, the only viable options left being Suicide lead Glimmora and Defog Griatina(-O).
TLDR: MIRAIDON NOT BEING BANNED WAS THE BEST DECISION OF ALL TIME AS IRON PINGU NEEDS THE SPEED BUFF TO THRIVE -- Icemaster
Assumption 2: Banning Miraidon will lead to a more balanced metagame
There's been an underlying assumption in this thread that for some reason, banning Miraidon will magically Make Balance Viable Again (or be a significant step to that effect).
I think this assumption is wrong.
First of all, to be clear, Balance and Stall are already viable in the format. Various balance and stall builds are strong in the format when they are disrespected in the builder because everyone overpreps for the HO matchup; it's why we see trends such as 90% of mirai being HDB (to ignore webs) and 90% of Zacian carrying play rough. On ladder, where there's little risk of getting counter teamed, a ton of playstyles are viable and even good.
Having said that, there's a difference between "Viable" and "should be brought more than 10% of the time in tournament play"; if anyone gets a reputation for bringing Balance/stall a large amount instead of Offense ppl will just c-team them and they will lose basically every game; the upshot is that ppl have to bring Offense at least 50-60% of the time to make people respect the matchup. On the other hand, people can bring Offense 80% of the time without significant risk of getting c-teamed because Offense is just that strong in this metagame. I can understand why tournament players, especially those playing in SCL, might be a little frustrated, and even sympathize with their concerns here.
However, I doubt a Miraidon ban will make balance more viable in a tournament context. The simple truth is that Ubers is filled to the brim with balance-deleting threats; the moment anyone starts to bring Balance/Stall significant amounts of the time they're going to start running into devastating Balance Cteams such as a lot of Kyurem-White/Black, Shadow Tag Gothetelle, Taunt Koraidon, etcetra. Balance isn't going to make a comeback into the tier with the simple removal of Miraidon.
In fact, a removal of Miraidon might actually make the metagame even more offense-biased. As good as Miraidon is on offense, it's actually also one of the main mons keeping offense in check. The presence of Miraidon's sheer combination of speed and power--particularly HDB variants that's exceptionally good against webs, for example--has shoehorned offense into running things like Play Rough Zacian, Agility Etern, and TR Caly-I, and these trends can be taken advantage of by a competent Balance builder. Without Miraidon, other breakers like Offensive Kyogre, Kyurem-B/W, and Various offense Arceus sets (instead of SPD arc-ground) may be more common, making it harder for defensive styles to account for the increased amount of breakers present.
Assumption 3: Banning Miraidon will lead to a more healthy metagame
This one, to me, bears a bit more credit; people have been complaining about incessant speed ties at 405 speed often being game-deciding in such an offensive tier, making the tier much less fun to play as a result. While it's true that speed ties are probably more common than is desirable, the simple truth is that banning Mirai is unlikely to reduce the number of speed ties significantly. Other posters before me have already pointed this out, but it's worth repeating: you're still going to run into Zacian speed ties, Koraidon speed ties, and speed ties of various Arceus formes. I don't think banning Miraidon is going to fix this issue.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Overall, I don't think people should be voting to ban Miraidon based on "Will it make the metagame better?", because no one here knows the consequences a Miraidon ban will bring (and if they say they do, they're lying). Instead, people should vote on if they think Miraidon is too much for the metagame right now--I personally think is it not, as the metagame has adapted to it with an increase in Zacian Crowned (among other adaptations, such as Scarf Lando-T for webs builds, for example), but I understand that others might think otherwise.
I recently got reqs and I just wanna put my two cents out there
I feel like any team that is forced to run suboptimal sets on suboptimal pokemon due to a specific threat that they always have to account for, otherwise they risk to get 6'0'd, is unhealthy metagame and its not very fun as it encourages HO spam. This is not like Calyrex-shadow in Gen 8 because there you were forced to run Yveltal who was a really good pokemon. We are talking about running Spdef Arceus-Ground or Spdef Iron Treads, both pokemon which would much rather run other sets if they were given a chance. We are talking about Ting lu, who is an incredible momentum sink even for Balance teams and who can easily be worn down due to Miraidon's access to U turn, not to mention it can struggle to do any meaningful progress if it gets taunted and its also weak to spikes and toxic spikes (which are incredibly hard to remove).
All of that without saying that if Miraidon just happens to run the right set, it can abuse those checks and beat them anyways. Miraidon can pick and choose if it wants to 6-0 offense with its double dance sets or be an incredible pain for balance teams with its pivot set. And while it can't do both at the same time, its pivot set is still good vs Offensive teams because its hard to remove and impossible to switch into, and its double dance sets can very easily run with the game against a balance team if the opposing's ground type isn't spamming whirlwind vs it (which invites threats like Koraidon)
On the issue of speed ties, I actually run into a lot of speed ties during my reqs, but it was always due to Koraidon. I'd have a scale shot koraidon kill something and then they'd immediately bring a scarf Koraidon to try to win the 50/50. I did not like this dynamic at all as it meant that I'd have to either risk losing my Koraidon for just one kill or stopping my sweep. Oftentimes it was out of my control if I was going to be subjected into that situation, and it meant that even if I was winning in that situation I could easily be set back by the opponent threatening a 50/50. Overall, I do not think this is Miraidon's fault at all, so if you wish to reduce the speed ties in the tier, I'd recommend looking at Koraidon instead.
I also find some arguments of the anti ban crowd to be a bit misleading. Saying that we need to find innovation this deep into the generation feels like a fools' errand, as people have been looking for it ever since the start of the generation, and frankly the only one that I feel like I've never seen mention is using Tera Ground Ho-oh to potentially beat Miraidon, but this obviously wastes your tera and makes Ho-oh not a good check vs pokemon like Koraidon or Zacian. What innovation is there left to discover? It obviously needs to be a ground type with high spdef, but the best ground type for that job is Arceus-Ground, a shaky check at best. So checking it defensively is out of the question already, unless you mean to tell me that people should start using amazing pokemon such as Tera Fairy volt absorb mons to properly counter Miraidon? The only other way left is to check it offensively, which overall leads to a higher amount of HO in the tier since that is the style best suited to checking such threats.
I have yet to see a convincing argument from the DNB crowd. I can be swayed into it but so far I will be voting Ban on this bike.
I feel like any team that is forced to run suboptimal sets on suboptimal pokemon due to a specific threat that they always have to account for, otherwise they risk to get 6'0'd, is unhealthy metagame and its not very fun as it encourages HO spam. This is not like Calyrex-shadow in Gen 8 because there you were forced to run Yveltal who was a really good pokemon. We are talking about running Spdef Arceus-Ground or Spdef Iron Treads, both pokemon which would much rather run other sets if they were given a chance. We are talking about Ting lu, who is an incredible momentum sink even for Balance teams and who can easily be worn down due to Miraidon's access to U turn, not to mention it can struggle to do any meaningful progress if it gets taunted and its also weak to spikes and toxic spikes (which are incredibly hard to remove).
All of that without saying that if Miraidon just happens to run the right set, it can abuse those checks and beat them anyways. Miraidon can pick and choose if it wants to 6-0 offense with its double dance sets or be an incredible pain for balance teams with its pivot set. And while it can't do both at the same time, its pivot set is still good vs Offensive teams because its hard to remove and impossible to switch into, and its double dance sets can very easily run with the game against a balance team if the opposing's ground type isn't spamming whirlwind vs it (which invites threats like Koraidon)
On the issue of speed ties, I actually run into a lot of speed ties during my reqs, but it was always due to Koraidon. I'd have a scale shot koraidon kill something and then they'd immediately bring a scarf Koraidon to try to win the 50/50. I did not like this dynamic at all as it meant that I'd have to either risk losing my Koraidon for just one kill or stopping my sweep. Oftentimes it was out of my control if I was going to be subjected into that situation, and it meant that even if I was winning in that situation I could easily be set back by the opponent threatening a 50/50. Overall, I do not think this is Miraidon's fault at all, so if you wish to reduce the speed ties in the tier, I'd recommend looking at Koraidon instead.
I also find some arguments of the anti ban crowd to be a bit misleading. Saying that we need to find innovation this deep into the generation feels like a fools' errand, as people have been looking for it ever since the start of the generation, and frankly the only one that I feel like I've never seen mention is using Tera Ground Ho-oh to potentially beat Miraidon, but this obviously wastes your tera and makes Ho-oh not a good check vs pokemon like Koraidon or Zacian. What innovation is there left to discover? It obviously needs to be a ground type with high spdef, but the best ground type for that job is Arceus-Ground, a shaky check at best. So checking it defensively is out of the question already, unless you mean to tell me that people should start using amazing pokemon such as Tera Fairy volt absorb mons to properly counter Miraidon? The only other way left is to check it offensively, which overall leads to a higher amount of HO in the tier since that is the style best suited to checking such threats.
I have yet to see a convincing argument from the DNB crowd. I can be swayed into it but so far I will be voting Ban on this bike.
I understand what you are trying to say here, and worries that the metagame will be worse after a Miraidon ban are entirely justified. However, I don't think your vote in a suspect test should center around what the tier could be, it should be centered around what is unhealthy *now*. A lot of pro ban posts have as you said been sharing their excitement of what a Miraidonless meta could hold, but this is not without very real sentiment that Miraidon is currently a huge contributing factor to what makes this meta unhealthy, and unenjoyable. This is a conversation that has taken place a lot in OU as of late- encouraging people not to make votes in fear of what could becoming broken, what could make the meta less enjoyable, because the community will probably call for more suspects in the future if the new meta is in fact that atrocious.
(im not going to include the full comment that im responding too, just to save space. It doesn't mean im ignoring points, this post will already be long enough as it is)
This point is not the most important because a vote on saving or banning Miraidon should not be reliant on the sole point of "metagame diversity" and what that could look like post Miraidon ban. A metagame does not even need to be fully "diverse" to be enjoyed by the playerbase. People who have presented future metagame diversity as a possible outcome, but again have paired it with other points in regards to how Miraidon currently restricts teambuilding, and how it currently has a negative effect on play in their opinions.
A lot of the points made here are kind of all over the place and theory monning, but I'm going to try my best to make sense of all this.
As aurora already said, this ladder is not the most reliable. It is very common to find top ladder players running stall simply because a large portion of ladder players are not good enough to beat it. I have experienced this multiple times when trying to make top ladder runs, and my friends can also attest to this. Something notable in this as well is that Miraidon is not just heavy duty boots to avoid webs, the boots set also threatens a lot of teams reliant on general hazard setting (such as stall) because it helps keep Miraidon healthy in the face of Pokemon that will generally struggle to do damage to it. Paired with the fact these sets almost always run taunt, I feel that you fundamentally misunderstand what boots Miraidon accomplishes, and why it has becoming so limiting on real balance teams. There are plenty of posts in this thread explaining how Miraidon does this, i encourage you to read them.
I think this is very dismissive of what tour play is. People do not just run something like balance because they think its neat, people are trying their best to load what is not only good in the current meta, but good into the current meta as well. This currently is more Hyper Offense builds, as other teamstyles simply are not as reliable when it comes to higher level, and therefore more consistent levels of play, where you should much more reasonably expect the better player to win a game. And in terms of people loading offense because it doesn't have a significant risk of getting c-teamed, with how this meta has developed offense IS the offense counter team. Pokemon like Miraidon, Koraidon, And Zacian are so defensively warping that that leaves most teams best ways of handing them being their own Miraidon, Koraidon, and Zacian. (There is obviously more pokemon that get used, but im not going to get into explaining the whole tier dynamic when there are many posts that have done so better here, I think LBN does a phenomenal job). Ultimately i think this is a but of a null point and shows that you haven't actually put any thought into why SCL has gone the way it has so far, other then a very shallow claim that loading offense is an easy way to avoid counter-teaming.
As I said before, I don't believe points like this are relevant. The point of people pro ban in terms of balance right now is that Miraidon is one of the most obvious threats to balance in the tier. It has the raw power to nuke the defensive counterplay to its partners, and is often able to overwhelm its own defensive checks. THIS is what the suspect should be voted on, not worries that Gothitelle, or Kyurem Black will suddently skyrocket to counter balance in tour play, or the fact that this tier does in fact have strong offensive threats outside of Miraidon. Does Miraidon itself beat a lot of offensive Pokemon? Yes! Will those pokemon potentially become more powerful in wake of a miraidon suspect? Also yes! However do we know what that meta will look like without Miraidon in it? No, because we haven't gotten to play it.
I think this point is ultimately very reductive conclusion on what the Pro Ban crowd has been saying, speed ties are something that do happen in pokemon, and yes they will still exist after a Miraidon ban. However, the posts I have seen complaining about this are complaining about the frequency in which speed ties between both of the bikes (not just one) have a tendency to decide the outcomes of games. Since the defensive options for these pokemon are incredibly limited, if you are not able to maneuver your Zacian to be able to outspeed the bike (provided it is not scarf) many games will have to risk the speed tie at one point, as has been the case for many people documenting their suspect runs. Saying that "you will still run into speed ties with miraidon gone" doesn't further any dnb argument, because the hope with the pro ban crowd is that with Miraidon gone, it will give way consistent winpaths that will be able to more consistently avoid speed ties, which is something this iteration of the meta does not have.
Claming that no one knows the consequences of what a Miraidon ban will bring after you spent half this post making claims about what a post Miraidon meta will be, and using these as your defining points for why Pro Ban voters are wrong, shows in itself why your argument here is incredibly weak. In both your posts the only way you have tired to make any real argument is by dismissing other players concerns and claiming that they don't actually know what they are talking about, which comes off as incredibly rude and condescending. Your entire thesis that people should vote on how they feel about Miraidon as it effects the meta now is already something many people think, including me.
I guess my point here is, try and find a reasoning keep Miraidon in the tier that does not involve trying to discredit and question the capabilities of everyone who disagrees with you, there are a lot of pro ban people here who are well respected as gifted players for a reason, and the simple fact that they have a view of the metagame you are unable to understand properly does not mean your condescending tone will make your points any stronger.
ps, using ditto in HO hell does not equate to using balance, nor does it indicate a "competent balance builder"
EDIT:
Editing to poke at the fact that you quoted icemaster's rmt, when ice is not only pro ban but also mentions that miraidon not being banned was stupid, and only mentions miraidon being banned as a good thing in a joking manner as it enabled the iron bundle this team used. If this was an attempt at satire, it doesnt work.
Last edited:
Before the suspect ends, I want to bring up the speedtie issue. It's no secret that SV Ubers is incredibly prone to speedties between the bikes or Zacian, a problem which Miraidon is a huge contributor to in part due to the ease at which it can hold Heavy-Duty Boots. The no-ban camp chalks this up to the players choosing to go for speedties, but the reality is that players are trying everything to mitigate the issue.
Take Entro vs. Fade from SCL. Entro loads Glimmora HO with Ekiller, Kingambit, and (most likely) Trick Room NDM into webs. He has several forms of speed control and ways to mitigate webs, but ends up losing because he was put in a position where he had to go for a bike speedtie on turn 11.
Allow me to reiterate. Entro, arguably the best SV Ubers player in the entire pool, loaded all of Ekiller, Kingambit, and TR NDM and still lost to a speedtie. Numerous other SCL games highlight this further, but this game perfectly exemplifies the issue. Players are actively trying to avoid going for speedties, but the hyper offensive nature of the tier that Miraidon promotes by pushing consistent bulkier builds out literally forces players to go for speedties anyway. The simple truth of the matter is that current Ubers isn't a skill conducive tier, and speedties have been one of the biggest contributors to this. This is an aspect that Miraidon has promoted to an extremely unhealthy degree and it’s time we do something about it.
Take Entro vs. Fade from SCL. Entro loads Glimmora HO with Ekiller, Kingambit, and (most likely) Trick Room NDM into webs. He has several forms of speed control and ways to mitigate webs, but ends up losing because he was put in a position where he had to go for a bike speedtie on turn 11.
Allow me to reiterate. Entro, arguably the best SV Ubers player in the entire pool, loaded all of Ekiller, Kingambit, and TR NDM and still lost to a speedtie. Numerous other SCL games highlight this further, but this game perfectly exemplifies the issue. Players are actively trying to avoid going for speedties, but the hyper offensive nature of the tier that Miraidon promotes by pushing consistent bulkier builds out literally forces players to go for speedties anyway. The simple truth of the matter is that current Ubers isn't a skill conducive tier, and speedties have been one of the biggest contributors to this. This is an aspect that Miraidon has promoted to an extremely unhealthy degree and it’s time we do something about it.
Last edited:
I've been trying to formulate my thoughts in a way that isnt just repeating what I put in the suspect in February and I'm struggling to find words that arent just repeating myself but I'll try before the test closes.
This tier hasnt been fun for me in a long time. I've been fairly vocal about disliking using HO over multiple gens, so my SCL usage is probably pretty telling of my opinion of the meta (I have used HO every week bar one). HO just feels like the most consistent way of playing to try to win. Other styles are just so prone to being destroyed by a well played Miraidon that it skews the risk-reward of using other teamstyles too far out of whack.
Do I think this is solely Miraidon's fault? No of course not, there are multiple incredibly strong threats that contribute to this, but for me Miraidon is the one that skews teambuilding the most with the relative quality of its checks. To use the obvious comparison, Koraidon is kept in check with mons like Kyogre, Arceus-Fairy, and Ho-oh, while Miraidon is the reason Iron Treads is used at all. The relative quality of the mons Miriadon makes people use are worse than any other comparable top tier threat unless you commit to dealing with it offensively, which leads to the kind of meta we have now that I simply do not enjoy. This is very subjective, and if you like it, thats great. But I dont, and thats the cornerstone of why I'm voting ban for this mon again.
This tier hasnt been fun for me in a long time. I've been fairly vocal about disliking using HO over multiple gens, so my SCL usage is probably pretty telling of my opinion of the meta (I have used HO every week bar one). HO just feels like the most consistent way of playing to try to win. Other styles are just so prone to being destroyed by a well played Miraidon that it skews the risk-reward of using other teamstyles too far out of whack.
Do I think this is solely Miraidon's fault? No of course not, there are multiple incredibly strong threats that contribute to this, but for me Miraidon is the one that skews teambuilding the most with the relative quality of its checks. To use the obvious comparison, Koraidon is kept in check with mons like Kyogre, Arceus-Fairy, and Ho-oh, while Miraidon is the reason Iron Treads is used at all. The relative quality of the mons Miriadon makes people use are worse than any other comparable top tier threat unless you commit to dealing with it offensively, which leads to the kind of meta we have now that I simply do not enjoy. This is very subjective, and if you like it, thats great. But I dont, and thats the cornerstone of why I'm voting ban for this mon again.
Good riddance, Miraidon
ok but seriously lets talk mons i think could rise:
It's already good afaik, but no more Miraidon means that Meteor Beam Eternatus basically takes its place on HO builds, since they both smack Ho-Oh pretty well, as well as Eternatus being able to pull off its own Double Dance with Agility. Defensive sets are still solid, especially since the next rise being...
Kyogre doesn't have to worry about Miraidon destroying its CM sets, or easily revenge-killing its Scarf Water Spout sets, while Kyogre does the same as its always done. It also doesn't have to run Tera Ground anymore, which is a bit more useful for Choice Specs variants, although I'm not 100% if those are good or not. Arceus-Water falls under the same boat as well, while its still great for handling Calyrex-I and Necrozma-DM.
Similar story to Kyogre, one less bike to be revenge-killed by. Although they did like Wild Charge and Fusion Bolt being slightly boosted in Electric Terrain I guess. The latter also handles Dondozo and Alomomola for the tier too, in case those two become too strong (they won't).
Basically just all the niche physical walls become better since they're less passive as a whole. Zamazenta-C seems pretty good actually since it walls a lot of physical attackers like NDM, Caly-I and even Koraidon if it's boosted or has used Tera.
TBH I don't know what it did prior to the ban but for now, I'm guessing mixed Dragon Dance sets could be cool, although justifying it over Kyurem-B is difficult NGL.
Future Paradox Pokémon lost today bros
apologies for a short post but i think dozo in particular gains from being able to use rest easily due to terrain leaving
Basically just all the niche physical walls become better since they're less passive as a whole. Zamazenta-C seems pretty good actually since it walls a lot of physical attackers like NDM, Caly-I and even Koraidon if it's boosted or has used Tera