np SV UU Stage 3.1 - Rain On Me

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Lily

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Hey all! As you may have seen, we got new shifts yesterday (no joke!).

---

Slowking moved from UU to OU

Decidueye moved from OU to UU
Iron Leaves moved from OU to UU
Pelipper moved from OU to UU
Quaquaval moved from OU to UU

Haxorus moved from RUBL to UU
Alomomola moved from RU to UU
Rotom-Heat moved from RU to UU
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua moved from RU to UU
Tauros-Paldea-Blaze moved from RU to UU

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Some big stuff here! Decidueye will likely have a small niche thanks to its great movepool and solid typing, but the real highlights here are Iron Leaves, Quaquaval and the return of Pelipper. Will rain be too much? Will the dancing duck destroy the tier? Will Iron Leaves be mid? Who knows! Tell us about any observations you may have! :D
 
The fact that Pelipper dropped at the exact same time as more Fire-Types rose from RU is very odd, given that that the fire-types in question rose as answers to Scizor. And Quaquaval is definitively something that you need to answer immediately in battle before it spirals out of control with Moxie. Also Rain returning means more usage of Quagsire and Gastrodon.
 
I HATE QUAQUAVAL I HATE QUAQUAVALI HATE QUAQUAVAL I HATE QUAQUAVAL

WHO LET THIS THING INTO UU??????????

I really only play offense teams because I find them the most enjoyable and they're what I'm best at. Quaquaval is the single most annoying Pokemon for offense to deal with, no questions asked. At least with other offense breakers like Gengar and Grafaiai, theres some decent pivoting and counterplay that you can use to limit their effectiveness, but against Quaquaval all you have is a single Mimikyu or Lokix to save you. The 3 Attacks variants with Ice Spinner and STABs are a nightmare to revenge kill. Your options are basically limited to Mimikyu and Lokix, and if you make a single mistake, the entire match gets thrown out the window and you lose.

And, even if you DO pivot around Quaquaval perfectly, you could get absolutely wrecked if it reveals something unexpected. It can roost to stay out of First Impression range, Tera into a type that resists Play Rough, or just get a little lucky with a single Play Rough miss and sweep.

If I'm wrong and Offense has some great Quaquaval counterplay, please inform me! I would love for this thing to be balanced, as it provides a lot to the builder with reliable recovery, hazard removal, and good offensive pressure. But for now, I just feel like I can't do anything consistent against Quaquaval on offense. I'm not calling for tiering action now, as that would be far too early, but Quaquaval is certainly on the radar for me.

I wish we still had Slowking...
 
WooHoo New Drops!

Personally I think that it's kind of a shame that we only really got offensive juggernauts through the Tier shifts and lost a defensive staple, which is definitely an overall net loss for fat in general. But then again I am le big stall player so take that with a grain of salt, especially since I seriously doubt that fat teams that previously weren't using Slowking are gonna change significantly. As for the individual drops I think they're all (aside from the Owl) gonna summent themselves as either Tier staples or even be somewhat broken depending on how their sets develop, but personally I've not really been struggling with any of them as of late. Anyhow I'd like to give my thoughts about each individual mon and how I think they will (or won't) affect the metagame, starting with the weakest one.


:SV/Decidueye:
Owl City

Starting off with the weakest mon is kind of a cop out, but I want an excuse to theorymon so hush. Decidueye has absolutely no business staying UU by usage at the end of the month unless someone figures out some kind of super cracked niche it randomly has access to before next May shifts. Generally I doubt that Offensive sets will be very worthwhile in the current metagame because of how stiff the Ghost-type competition is in UU, but Defensive sets definitely look atleast somewhat decent despite the numerous flaws they have attached to them.


Defensive Sets

Initially it's stats and movepool looks promising with access to a plethora of Utility options like Knock Off, U-Turn, Defog and Roost which allow it to play defense decently. This alongside the useful resistances to Ground, Electric, Water and the ever important Fighting Immunity would lead you to believe that it could somewhat consistently come in to get these tools off, right?

The main issue with this however is that it really just is not built for this role because of how it's Defensive Typing doesn't synergize with it's Defensive Stats whatsoever. It's built like a Specially Defensive mon but it's typing only really let's it check Shocks with such a spread, however as a Physically Defensive tank it has to rely on 78/75 bulk which is just awful. Personally I still think that these tools are the main thing Decidueye can do to differenciate itself from the superior options because of how it's the only mon with the Knock Off + Defog combination in the entire dex, but it's just so bleh.


Offensive Sets

Generally I don't think that Specially Offensive sets are going to see much usage because they're mostly outclassed by Gengar. This is mainly because Decidueye is both weaker and slower, while not really having a big leg up defensively either (the Fimp Resistance makes Gar much harder to revenge kill ironically enough). The tier is full of good Ghost resists which run a lot of special bulk specifically to deal with Gengar, which is why I don't think that sets focused on Special Offense are going to be very prevelant.

The afforementioned reasons are mainly why I think that Choice Band is the set with the most potential, mainly because of how it has a couple of tools which make it unique in comparison to the other attackers in the tier. Long Reach gives it the freest punish on Talonflame ever thanks to Knock Off and also makes clicking stuff like Leaf Blade, U-Turn and Shadow Sneak a lot easier. Access to a decent Physical Ghost Stab in Spirit Shackle fixes the main issue most Physical Ghosts have to deal it while also making it rougher to pivot around in comparison because of the trapping effect. I still don't think this set will be very good because of how mediocre it is defensively and how it has to choose between more than 4 options, but it looks somewhat ok atleast.


Anyway now that I'm done with the bad one it's time to tackle the drops people are actually excited for, those being Iron Leaves and Pelipper and Quaquaval. I predict that all of them are going to have a gigantic impact on the UU metagame because of the many unique tools they bring to the table.


:SV/Iron Leaves:
5G Brainrot

Iron Leaves is an interesting mon that I really don't have a lot to say about because of how extremely obvious it's intended playstyle is. It has access to decent coverage alongside Swords Dance so it's obviously inclined to run that, which means that it'll most likely become a Hyper Offense staple overnight. Generally it has a lot going for it such as being one of the few good Offensive Grass-Types we have access to in the tier, which alongside it's solid bulk allows it to use mons like Scarf Pawmot, Tera Blastless Sandy Shocks, Gastrodon and Tauros-Water as setup fodder. Being a setup sweeper that also shits on Quagsire is also a nice bonus, especially since unlike other alternatives like Gyarados and Hawlucha the opportunity cost isn't as severe. Grass + Psychic + something for Steels can be a pretty rough combination to switch into as seen with Gallade, which Iron Leaves also has access to thanks to Close Combat or even Tera Blast Fire. 104 base Speed is also just a good speed tier in general, but also comes with the bonus of putting you above the likes of every Scarfer slower than Pawmot after a Booster Energy.

Now this looks all fine and dandy on paper, but the real issue with the SD variant is mainly just how easy it is to revenge kill. 90/88 Physical Bulk is nothing to sneeze at as far as Offensive mons go, but the real kicker comes with the typing. It can not be understated just how awful Psychic/Grass is defensively in this tier because of how dominated it currently is by strong Bug, Flying, Dark and Ghost types. The lack of a resistance to common priority like Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed is further exhasperated by the weakness to First Impression and Sucker Punch and it's Speed Tier is just bellow mons which carry Super Effective STAB moves like Gengar, Iron Jugulis, Kilowattrel and Noivern.

However this is where Terastilization as a mechanic comes in and basically saves this mon from the majority of it's flaws. Not only can it potentially use this mechanic Offensively by using a Tera which makes either Stab stronger or use something like Tera Blast Fire in order to smack fat mons that can tank it's type combo, but it can also use Tera defensively in order to circumvent it's biggest issue; the awful typing. Personally I've been experimenting with Tera Fire as the defensive typing since gives you a resistance to Bug and Steel while also making you immune to Talonflames omnipresent burns. There are still a lot of issues with this set of course like how Choice Banded Lokix can still OHKO you with Tera Bug First Impression, but hey you win some you lose some amirite :>.

Outside of Swords Dance I really don't think anything else is worth theorymonning over at the moment, since Choice Band and Choice Scarf both look solid on papers, so they could realistically speaking see some usage. I could also talk about how it totally will revolutionize Electric Terrain as a playstyle and make it even remotely viable, but I'd rather leave the coping to the experts if you catch my drift. Overall there really isn't much else to say about Leaves, it's just extremely good at what it does while also being very Tera reliant.


:SV/Pelipper:

"Skillless" does not even begin to describe this pokemon, I am beyond convinced at this point. After spending two months in OU they finally let this POS drop last minute because of some dumb weather wars they could've prevented by just banning the totally balanced Dinosaur. Anyhow because of OU's weather issues we now have to deal with this annoying playstyle, yaaaay. Outside of a rant I really don't have much to say about rain that hasn't already been said plenty of times already, especially since I both CT the shit out of it unintentionally and also never play it so it might aswell not exist.


:SV/Quaquaval:
Gay Duck

And finally we have Quaquaval which is definitely an interesting mon to theorycraft for solely because of how many tools it has at it's disposal. There's obviously an intended way to use it since it has access to some incredibly nutty tools in the form of Aqua Step + Swords Dance + Moxie, but it also has a lot of utility options alongside that. Options like Rapid Spin and Roost managed to make it's middle stage evolution viable in PU after all, so it wouldn't be surprising if we see something like that in UU aswell. Anyhow onto the actual theorycrafting, starting with offensive variants.

Generally I think that the main version of Quaquaval we're gonna be seeing for the rest of April is going to be some form of offensively spec'd Duck, mainly the Swords Dance variants. With access to a strong Water Stab that also boosts your Speed alongside a Life Orb Close Combat that can 2hko Quagsire, it very much seems like a strong choice in the current metagame, especially for Hyper Offense teams. Of course Swords Dance + 3 attacks isn't the only set it can run, since the speed boost you gain from Aqua Step can offset the mediocre speed you'd have by running a Bulky setup variant. You retain the ability to more consistently use Quagsire as setup fodder with Taunt + Roost and some Bulk, which also gives you more longevity. Pair this with either Bulk Up or Swords Dance and you've got yourself a solid, albeit one dimensional set. These are obviously two extremes as you could easily run something like Roost + SD + 2a or Taunt + SD + 2a or even Sub + SD + 2a, but theorycrafting every possible SD set would get kinda repetitive.

I also think that Choiced sets could potentially be decent. Choice Band is obviously the main set here and it's purpose is fairly obvious, it just hits really hard and ticks both the Priority and Pivot boxes thanks to Aqua Jet and U-Turn. Moxie + Aqua Step also makes it into a potentially formidable lategame cleaner even though it is initially a bit prediction reliant and also has to choose between a couple of moveslots. Scarf meanwhile sounds solid on paper because of how Moxie Scarfers typically end up being great cleaners, which alongside U-Turn and the spammable Close Combat makes it pretty formidable.

However I would also like to make a case for variants which use Rapid Spin, mainly the Offensively oriented ones akin to Tatsugiri. A general complaint I see regarding the formes of hazard removal in UU is that the mons which have access to them suck individually, which is understandable given that none of our Spinners would currently be UU by usage if not for Rapid Spin being in their arsenal. Quaquaval is interesting in this regard because it's just genuinely good as an individual pokemon, which might lead to Offensive Rapid Spin sets taking off and becoming standard. Granted this is just me theorymonning since I have never seen anyone actually use this yet, but it sounds interesting, especially since Quaquaval is the only Spinner with access to reliable recovery.


Alright so those are most of my thoughts regarding the drops we're gonna have to deal with throughout April. We definitely had a large metagame shakeup which I think is a good thing because to me UU has been feeling pretty stale as of late and desperately needed something to change. I could see Quaquaval and Iron Leaves being potentially broken in the future, but they've only been live for two days now and I haven't really played with or against them enough to form an opinion. Rain meanwhile is the worst and I want it gone >:(.
 
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gulch

formerly Melt Gibson
is a Forum Moderator
Pretty happy with these shifts! Shocks and Pawmot stayed, Leaves and Decidueye look super fun. I'll post more once I've played some more in this meta, but Rain is probably going to be just as lame and unfun as it was in beta, and I think Quaquaval might be banworthy. We'll see!
 
Decidueye and Haxorus seem fun to play around with!
Pelipper is in UU once again. *sigh*
Rotom-H seems interesting, probably it stops Scizor in its tracks.
Quaquaval in UU?! Oh how the mighty fallen. But Quaquav+Peliper teams sounds kinda fun. :D

...


WHY SLOWKING WHY DID HAVE TO LEAVE US :psycry:
 
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justdrew

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I think Decidueye looks better than Quageval. To me Quageval will be the same as Toedscruel--so much utility on paper, but just doesn't play that well. We lost Slowking but that will only increase Slowbro's usage. Decidueye and Brambleghast's Grass Ghost typing along with Gastrodon's Storm Drain and tera Poison and Ghost all mess with the duck.

Rain will probably be good, but I feel like the tier has enough answers to generally mitigate it. We have Alomomola + Tauros and Salamence with Intimidate. Though potentially people will have to prep too extensively for rain which might make it broken.

I do like the tier getting some new mons. I don't necessarily think either of these mons is broken or bannable, but if we were to suspect something soon I'm pretty sure Gengar and Sandy Shocks are the only two options.
 
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Estarossa

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Duck seems very solid to me on paper but I haven't necessarily seen it be used very well at all yet, so looking forward to seeing how a week of like UUFPL and UUPL sees it actually perform, since it looks kinda dumb on paper outside of slowbro. 3 attacks LO roost seems the most appealing one on paper to me, zero defensive answers other than slowbro considering all the mentions above are weak to the coverage slot and it isn't the most support reliant thing in the world when its got very usable bulk + a typing that gets it entries on like tink / ttar especially but some weaker grounds etc too. Think stuff like Bulk Up/SD, Spin + coverage, choice band u-turn etc all seem pretty usable too but it hasn't necessarily been explored enough yet.

Ive been more interested by aqua-tauros since shifts if im honest saying all of that and think its BU + Trailblaze sets are performing especially nicely atm for me so far since shifts, the better bulk and defensive utility from intimidate is definitely appealing.

In general think we need more time to really appreciate how duck is gonna perform right now since despite a lot of on paper appeals its not really performing yet despite having the theoretical matchups too when i see it a lot of the time, probably from skill issue mostly.

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Thought I'd share a fun post shifts team anyway cause quite a lot of people were intrigued by the Appletun ive been using.

:appletun: :magnezone: :donphan: :talonflame: :scream-tail: :tyranitar:
https://pokepast.es/f12a12594993a0e5

Appletuns pretty fun on paper for the water-resist + thick fat making ice coverage not fuck it up too much either, so actually gives it some appeal for the water threats we're now expecting to see.

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Thick Fat Appletun: 228-272 (53.7 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Appletun: 171-202 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Quaquaval Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Thick Fat Appletun: 156-184 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Apple Acid + Draco Meteor is honestly kinda not easy to switch into outside of Tinkaton and lets it break in a p cool way tbh, on top of leech just being a nice mid ground tool and switch-in aider and stuff, with tera poison removing poison issues and giving it useful resistances vs like slither and stuff too while still avoiding 2hko from gastro ep when weak to it. Zone is definitely kinda necessary for it (although i have a team without thats still fun but has to play a slower game vs tink a lot) but does support it well.

Don't like relying on it solely for rain and stuff ofc so like scream tail offers a rly nice secondary quav check outside of that mu and ttar also good weather changing stuff, while scream just supports ttar / zone / apple / phan so well too and covers for some set up shit that apple might let get turns. Offensive 3a spin donphans a fun one tbh for also being actually quite difficult to handle so its nice to be able to get to run it here and it handles stuff like Tink and ttar very nicely too.

Hope u enjoy loool ;x
 
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Sulo

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I played a few games with Quaquaval on ladder and against some friends, and I think this thing is broken so far until I'm proven otherwise. I think SD + STABs + Roost / Ice Spinner is gonna be the best set personally, since you have a lot of entry points vs common Pokemon like Tinkaton, Hippowdon, Alomomola, Tyranitar, etc. If using Ice Spinner, it's pretty easy to just Aqua Step on switch-ins like Salamence and Noivern and Ice Spinner them the next turn (potentially having to Terastallize against the former if Ice Spinner doesn't KO after Intimidate against bulkier sets, but that's not too much of an issue imo as you can get an SD off instead and literally just snowball afterwards). Speaking of Terastallization, I think this is gonna be an incredibly good abuser of it; most of Quaquaval's counterplay (aside from Slowbro and Bulk Up Paldean Tauros-W) will most certainly lose after it Terastallizes, being completely barred from using super effective coverage in the slightest (e.g. Scream Tail will lose, especially if Taunt so you can't Wish / Thunder Wave, Wo-Chien can't Giga Drain you, etc).
Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Roost / Ice Spinner / Taunt
This is the set I've been using. Last moveslot is interchangeable of course. Tera Steel lets you beat the aforementioned defensive checks, and 200 Spe lets you outrun Talonflame at +1. Its biggest issue of course is most certainly 4MSS, but you can probably get away with SD + 3 attacks on some offense and absolutely dominate too.
 
While I think Quack is very good I hesitate to call it broken yet. It's not nearly as broken as Iron Hands was, and it has hard 4MSS. I am interested to see if any counterplay evolves or if it's basically picking its own checks. I'll loop back in a week or two on it.

Estarossa notes Appletun which I have also experimented with in March. It has a variety of interesting move sets, though its typing is definitely niche and I think most teams would be better off with something else. However, we lack good grass types to switch into Wo-Chien; Appletun is probably as good as it's going to get until home. Rain being back is a bummer, though Pelliper is always on the cusp of rising based purely on a good RMT. Decidueye is terrible, not much to say. It has a nice movepool but I anticipate it going to RU in May.
 

gulch

formerly Melt Gibson
is a Forum Moderator
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Fighting Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Okay, so we all agree Quaquaval is an issue, right? You bring in Gastrodon, Tatsugiri or Quagsire to stop Aqua Step, you get smashed by Close Combat. You use Slowbro? They switch out, Band sets U-Turn, or some SD sets just muscle through you and don't give a shit. You wanna out-offense it? Congrats, it just Aqua Stepped, maybe killing your mon, and now you're likely slower. It also resists every relevant priority option in the tier. Lokix has to Tera to kill it with First Impression.

This duck is so fucking lame.
 

TyCarter

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Obviously, the hot topic at hand is :Quaquaval: aka QUAVO. In isolation, it's already really constraining and unfun to play against. I've certainly encountered many variations of Quavo whether it's taunt, BU Roost, SD, or even scarf from experimenting on the ladder. :Slowbro: has been mentioned as a common check and even that can't fit onto every team structure, not to mention Quavo could use tera grass/electric to overpower it, this is basically UU's version of Seismitoad being on every OU team just to not lose to Dracovish kinda moment but not as bad. :Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: feels like a band-aid solution since it doesn't resist cc and really should be paired with another intimidator such as :Salamence:, it honestly feels like you have to actively cheat ur defensive coverage just to not get rolled over by the duck and rain which I have def seen ppl run it on.

Quavo single-handedly poses a major threat to common defensive cores that were previously seeing a lot of usages such as the infamous trio that really defined UU last month of :Wo-chien:, :Hippowdon: and :Talonflame: which has had tons of usage in UUPL as two out of these three mons on a team was not an uncommon sight leading up to the final week of UUPL before POs. A pokemon that also happens to be a new drop that can be a soft check is :Iron Leaves: who resists both of Quavo's stabs although it does need to respect Ice Spinner with that said. :Quagsire: and :Gastrodon: are also somewhat soft checks to Quavo just to prevent speed boosting if they are running Water Absorb and Storm Drain respectively. However, that has its own issues as Quavo would end up overpowering it with CC and maybe Taunt. Honestly if I saw :Gastrodon: start running clear smog I would not be surprised although it is worth noting :quaquaval: running Tera Steel has not been an uncommon sight presumably to dodge toxic.

Is Quavo broken? It's a major builder threat and it certainly backs up its prowess in game (so far) given it honestly has tons of room for customization in terms of what kind of set it can run.
 
Dropping is going to fundamentally alter how the tier plays (again) and I'm not sure its a positive thing. While I am personally not a big fan of rain, defensive counters exist and the toilet bird + pals can be hated out into low usage with the right team compositions. That said, building every team to somewhat survive Floatzel is going to be a drag and
suddenly becoming VERY manageable is going to open a ton of doors for pokemon like Scizor and Lokix who already did a ton for their teams and could only really be punished for throwing out big STABs with flame body.

As bad as its going to be to have to bring Talonflame when Pelliper is a permanent counter on the enemy team that comes in for free on anything AND scares you out AND sets up weather instantly, I think letting Lokix/Slither/Scizor spam your team with priority without fearing fire coverage and flame body might actually be worse.
 

Lizzie

formerly Liz Angeles
is a Tiering Contributor
On the topic of quaquaval, I'm not completely sure how I feel about it. I think its so bad into certain defensive cores, for example slowbro + mence is something I've used a lot since drops and there's no combination of moves that can break through both of them as far as I know. The problem with ququaval is it will cleave through unprepared teams like nothing else and preparing for it is pretty unreasonable. Essentially it has the keldeo problem, where you need a water resist that also resists fighting. There are very few pokemon that fulfil this role, and if they fold to +2 ice spinner then they're not particularly good at checking quaquaval. I haven't experienced this mon being broken yet but I really feel if you run sd stabs ice spinner on every team the only thing stopping it from completely tearing through the tier is slowbro, which is a much more exploitable mon than it's recently departed counterpart slowking. I just can't see this being balanced basically.

On some of the other drops, iron leaves is pretty good, having an offensive grass is cool. Haven't touched decidueye yet but I think it's probably a decent alternative to brambleghast for people like me who hate it. I think rain is like bad but it is restrictive, if anything is banworthy on rain it's floatzel but i wouldn't take action on it personally.
 
On the topic of quaquaval, I'm not completely sure how I feel about it. I think its so bad into certain defensive cores, for example slowbro + mence is something I've used a lot since drops and there's no combination of moves that can break through both of them as far as I know. The problem with ququaval is it will cleave through unprepared teams like nothing else and preparing for it is pretty unreasonable. Essentially it has the keldeo problem, where you need a water resist that also resists fighting. There are very few pokemon that fulfil this role, and if they fold to +2 ice spinner then they're not particularly good at checking quaquaval. I haven't experienced this mon being broken yet but I really feel if you run sd stabs ice spinner on every team the only thing stopping it from completely tearing through the tier is slowbro, which is a much more exploitable mon than it's recently departed counterpart slowking. I just can't see this being balanced basically.

On some of the other drops, iron leaves is pretty good, having an offensive grass is cool. Haven't touched decidueye yet but I think it's probably a decent alternative to brambleghast for people like me who hate it. I think rain is like bad but it is restrictive, if anything is banworthy on rain it's floatzel but i wouldn't take action on it personally.
Ice Spinner beats mence even with drops as it doesn't wanna ever take an ice move, and it can tera dark or pivot on slowbro, so it can still beat that core at the end of the day. So really the problem is that it can break through anything it wants with proper tera, and that's the issue. Also it gets u-turn to pivot out on mons like appletun that would wall it prior to boosts, and can chip slowbro with u-turn. You can also ice spinner on mence, slowbro comes in, you tera into something slowbro doesn't like like tera dark, tera blast and put it in a bad position, so it can in fact beat that core with good tera usage. Offensive sets are scary and probably make it banworthy, as really beating quaquaval comes down to guessing its tera in order not to get swept, which I don't see as very healthy at all.

Set of tera blast/u-turn, aqua step, close combat, ice spinner with the right tera can break that core easy.
 
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gulch

formerly Melt Gibson
is a Forum Moderator
I'm going to take a small break from discussing Quaquaval, since it seems that for the most part everyone is in agreement that it's stupid and needs to go. Instead, I wanna give my more detailed thoughts on Rain, and why I (and I believe most other people) hate it so much.

----

In theory, the typical Rain team consists of Pelipper :pelipper:, Floatzel :floatzel:, and Kilowattrel :kilowattrel:, with three filler slots that usually consist of some combo of a Steel (see: :tinkaton::scizor:), a Grass-type hazard remover (see: :tsareena::brambleghast::decidueye:), and one or more extra Rain abusers, usually something like Drednaw :drednaw:, Golduck :golduck:, or Barraskewda :barraskewda:.

Rain's Turn 1 is pretty much almost always sending out Pelipper. Sometimes you might send out Kilowattrel and click a quick U-Turn, or Tinkaton to set rocks, but you're usually just getting your Rain up as fast as possible so the next seven turns go your way. Then you dance around with your newly enabled dumbshit stupid breaker and try to kill as much as you can as fast as you can.

The single most annoying thing about Rain is that, while it's easy to beat in practice, it's not fun. Outpacing Kilowattrel and Swift Swim Floatzel without setting up or using shenanigans like Trace Gardevoir (viable but not something you can fit on every team) is pretty much impossible. Most relevant priority doesn't help too terribly much, Intimidate doesn't really stop Floatzel from doing insane numbers. Your only real option is to turtle it out and wait for the rain to go away, and if you have Tyranitar or Hippowdon, wait for an opportunity to get them in and set Sand. Getting an opportunity to kill Pelipper is nice, but if the Rain player has a brain (unlikely) then they're probably not going to let you have that while it's still relevant.

However, Rain as a playstyle isn't a thing you have to commit a full team build to. You can run Semi-Rain with just Pelipper and Floatzel, maybe Kilowattrel, and then three mons of your choice, and you'll still be able to generally do the same shit without being limited to doing it while Rain is up. This is the problem: Rain's core setup is so non-committal that you have to have a check to it on every single team, because even teams that aren't Rain teams can suddenly make you play the Rain matchup. Rain itself provides a lot of boons for would-be teammates. Most things in the tier appreciate the lessening of Fire damage, and now that Slowking is gone, Pelipper is the best slow pivot in the tier. While it is, in practice, easy enough to play around with some patience, it has the builder in such a chokehold that it severely narrows down what kind of teams are and are not viable. Rain rib-checks your defensive core before the game even starts. It doesn't help that most common answers to Floatzel and Barraskewda get dumpstered by Kilowattrel either. Wo-Chien and Hippowdon is about the closest you get to covering it with a splashable core that fits on more than one playstyle. Stall has no problem with it, they have Alomomola which just completely halts Rain's shenanigans in general. Most fatter teams can afford to build into the defensive core required to wait Rain out. But highly specialized offensive teams that aim to do the exact same thing that Rain did do in the beta and currently does now are nearly extinct because they can't compete with the splashability and team support Rain has to offer.

I don't think I would personally take action on it, however, if I had to say what the best course of action is, I think a Pelipper/Drizzle/Damp Rock test is the best way to go about things. Floatzel isn't the most problematic element of rain - You can use Barraskewda with similar enough results if it were to disappear. If there were to be a test on Floatzel, however, I'd probably vote ban just because it's annoying and unfun and I'd rather not see it anymore.
 

Lily

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Just a quick post about the council's views on Quaquaval since it's getting a lot of discussion here; we're not going to do anything just yet, but it's definitely on the radar. This is definitely not to say we're not keeping an eye on Quaquaval, just don't expect an immediate quickban; it is a big threat but we do feel there are adaptations that are being made that make it possibly balanced, so we want to give it a little bit more time to have its sets worked out. Same goes for rain and Iron Leaves, although the latter doesn't seem to be too hot a topic rn.

Please do keep discussing though! It's great to see thread activity like this. Here are a few things I've been liking to help deal with the gay duck.

:ss/slowbro:
Been talked about already but Slowbro is (imo) better than Slowking was anyway, at least defensively; yeah, no Chilly Reception sucks, but Slowbro is really annoying to switch into. Body Press does a decent chunk to Wo-Chien, Psychic owns the duck, Ice Beam smacks Noivern/Salamence, Flamethrower chunks Tinkaton and drops Scizor, and you can do some other cute stuff with Thunder Wave and Trick (since you're getting knocked by Tinkaton realistically). Lots of great options on this guy and the physical bulk difference over Slowking is sooooo good.

:ss/gastrodon:
Gastrodon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Ghost

Generally not necessary but Gastrodon (or other Water immunes like Tatsugiri or even Quagsire, though that's realistically better off with just going Unaware + Tera Fairy or something) can run Tera Ghost to completely blank Quaquaval's STABs, and you're not really threatened by Ice Spinner too much (unless you're Tatsu). You don't really lose much, Ghost is a great Tera type anyway and stuff like Fairy and Poison are still good too. It does mean you can't run Electric for Gyarados but oh well. Speaking of Gyarados!

:ss/gyarados:
Ability: Intimidate

Great check for offense, can abuse the heck out of Quaquaval for a setup opportunity and go to town, esp with Screens support. "Defensive" Gyarados (i.e. just not Dragon Dance, you still want offensive spreads) is something worth considering too.

:ss/oricorio-pom-pom:
Oricorio-Pom-Pom @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dancer
Tera Type: whatever
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature

Aqua Step is a dancing move, and with this spread you can switch into it decently well and KO back. Far from a super reliable check esp vs life orb / rain variants but it's pretty good as an emergency answer.

:ss/pelipper:
Pelipper @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 96 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk (don't forget to lower the attack ivs, it's important for bramble matchups)
- Surf
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Roost

Even outside of rain, offensive Pelipper is a surprisingly good mon. Not many things really like taking the combination of Modest Surf + Hurricane - ironically your best switch in is like Brambleghast but that can't recover much bc of Pelipper's abysmal Attack and it doesn't take Surf particularly well. It blanks the duck pretty well, not taking too much damage even from Life Orb CC, and can start doing big damage with its attacks from there. Decent slow pivot too, you can support mons like Floatzel with it without even needing to commit to hard rain.

:ss/tauros-paldea-aqua:
Defensive Water Tauros is surprisingly decent at taking hits from the duck and slowing it down pretty well. It might seem niche but it's honestly pretty cool in this meta anyway thanks to being a good Floatzel stopgap and it can still check other stuff like Tyranitar and Bisharp.

:ss/salamence:
Don't get Ice Spinnered but you're chilling otherwise. Tera Fairy completely owns.

:ss/noivern:
The above but shakier.

:ss/scream tail:
Owns most sets but you do have to be careful about Rain variants.

:ss/brambleghast: :ss/decidueye:
Both pretty shaky bc of Ice Spinner but they can situationally check it fairly well and being a Water resist that entirely blanks CC is always nice.

:ss/pawmot: :ss/sandy shocks: :ss/mimikyu: :ss/gengar: :ss/talonflame: :ss/rotom-heat: :ss/staraptor: :ss/iron leaves: :ss/iron jugulis: :ss/kilowattrel:
Surely more I'm forgetting. These guys can all do the job of offensively checking it pretty well, although they can't switch in or have to be very careful when doing so. All situational ofc but worth keeping in mind.

So ya it's okay for now I think, I'd like to see how the meta develops before doing something about quack but it's definitely worth keeping an eye on. Lemme know if you feel differently though of course!!
 
The single most annoying thing about Rain is that, while it's easy to beat in practice, it's not fun. Outpacing Kilowattrel and Swift Swim Floatzel without setting up or using shenanigans like Trace Gardevoir (viable but not something you can fit on every team) is pretty much impossible. Most relevant priority doesn't help too terribly much, Intimidate doesn't really stop Floatzel from doing insane numbers. Your only real option is to turtle it out and wait for the rain to go away, and if you have Tyranitar or Hippowdon, wait for an opportunity to get them in and set Sand.
I've been running Strom Drain Tatsugiri and betting on Wave Crash predictions and that generally helps. Furthermore, the guaranteed switch to something else can let me get Rapid Spin for speed boost or just slam whatever's coming in, hit even harder by Tatsu's water move cuz of their own rain and the SPA boost. It's hard countered by the aforementioned Gardevoir though, and idk exactly how long I can do this before rain players catch on, but it helps right now.
 
Just a quick post about the council's views on Quaquaval since it's getting a lot of discussion here; we're not going to do anything just yet, but it's definitely on the radar. This is definitely not to say we're not keeping an eye on Quaquaval, just don't expect an immediate quickban; it is a big threat but we do feel there are adaptations that are being made that make it possibly balanced, so we want to give it a little bit more time to have its sets worked out. Same goes for rain and Iron Leaves, although the latter doesn't seem to be too hot a topic rn.

Please do keep discussing though! It's great to see thread activity like this. Here are a few things I've been liking to help deal with the gay duck.

:ss/slowbro:
Been talked about already but Slowbro is (imo) better than Slowking was anyway, at least defensively; yeah, no Chilly Reception sucks, but Slowbro is really annoying to switch into. Body Press does a decent chunk to Wo-Chien, Psychic owns the duck, Ice Beam smacks Noivern/Salamence, Flamethrower chunks Tinkaton and drops Scizor, and you can do some other cute stuff with Thunder Wave and Trick (since you're getting knocked by Tinkaton realistically). Lots of great options on this guy and the physical bulk difference over Slowking is sooooo good.

:ss/gastrodon:
Gastrodon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Ghost

Generally not necessary but Gastrodon (or other Water immunes like Tatsugiri or even Quagsire, though that's realistically better off with just going Unaware + Tera Fairy or something) can run Tera Ghost to completely blank Quaquaval's STABs, and you're not really threatened by Ice Spinner too much (unless you're Tatsu). You don't really lose much, Ghost is a great Tera type anyway and stuff like Fairy and Poison are still good too. It does mean you can't run Electric for Gyarados but oh well. Speaking of Gyarados!

:ss/gyarados:
Ability: Intimidate

Great check for offense, can abuse the heck out of Quaquaval for a setup opportunity and go to town, esp with Screens support. "Defensive" Gyarados (i.e. just not Dragon Dance, you still want offensive spreads) is something worth considering too.

:ss/oricorio-pom-pom:
Oricorio-Pom-Pom @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dancer
Tera Type: whatever
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature

Aqua Step is a dancing move, and with this spread you can switch into it decently well and KO back. Far from a super reliable check esp vs life orb / rain variants but it's pretty good as an emergency answer.

:ss/pelipper:
Pelipper @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 96 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk (don't forget to lower the attack ivs, it's important for bramble matchups)
- Surf
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Roost

Even outside of rain, offensive Pelipper is a surprisingly good mon. Not many things really like taking the combination of Modest Surf + Hurricane - ironically your best switch in is like Brambleghast but that can't recover much bc of Pelipper's abysmal Attack and it doesn't take Surf particularly well. It blanks the duck pretty well, not taking too much damage even from Life Orb CC, and can start doing big damage with its attacks from there. Decent slow pivot too, you can support mons like Floatzel with it without even needing to commit to hard rain.

:ss/tauros-paldea-aqua:
Defensive Water Tauros is surprisingly decent at taking hits from the duck and slowing it down pretty well. It might seem niche but it's honestly pretty cool in this meta anyway thanks to being a good Floatzel stopgap and it can still check other stuff like Tyranitar and Bisharp.

:ss/salamence:
Don't get Ice Spinnered but you're chilling otherwise. Tera Fairy completely owns.

:ss/noivern:
The above but shakier.

:ss/scream tail:
Owns most sets but you do have to be careful about Rain variants.

:ss/brambleghast: :ss/decidueye:
Both pretty shaky bc of Ice Spinner but they can situationally check it fairly well and being a Water resist that entirely blanks CC is always nice.

:ss/pawmot: :ss/sandy shocks: :ss/mimikyu: :ss/gengar: :ss/talonflame: :ss/rotom-heat: :ss/staraptor: :ss/iron leaves: :ss/iron jugulis: :ss/kilowattrel:
Surely more I'm forgetting. These guys can all do the job of offensively checking it pretty well, although they can't switch in or have to be very careful when doing so. All situational ofc but worth keeping in mind.

So ya it's okay for now I think, I'd like to see how the meta develops before doing something about quack but it's definitely worth keeping an eye on. Lemme know if you feel differently though of course!!
Suspecting it should definitely be prioritized but yeah it doesn't necessarily have to be quickbanned. as all these checks you listed can lose to it through the right tera, making Quaquaval a massive guessing game, and if you guess wrong, you probably lose straight up or get put into an unfavorable position. Gyarados/Pelliper loses to tera electric, scream tail loses to tera steel/poison, slowbro loses to sets that use u-turn or tera dark, gastrodon gets 2hko'd by CC and can play around gastrodon's tera ghost by running dark tera blast, water tauros loses to brave bird/tera flying, you get the idea at this point. None of the potential answers to it are really all that great, as trying to guess all the possible teras it may have often run is kinda nightmarish, as if you guess wrong, chances are good you get swept or get nearly swept by it. Quaquaval should be suspected as the mon is already starting to put a strain on teambuilding. You can offensively deal with it, but dealing with it defensively is just a stupid matchup fish that basically relies on tera type matchups and guessing games.
 
Either Rain or Floatzel has to go. When you 2hko Max defense Slowbro with a resisted physical attack your broken.
Quaquaval can also 2hko slowking as well off of a life orb/choice banded cc, and that seems to be the elephant in the room because it seems that Quaquaval is pretty restricting on the builder and even outside of rain it is capable of wreaking havoc upon uu and probably has to be dealt with before rain. Rain is busted, but I think Quaquaval takes priority here for the next suspect/quickban.
 
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I am pro Drizzle ban. I think rain generally rewards ooga booga playstyles and requires dedicated counterplay at the expense of tier-wide creativity in the builder. I wouldn't be shocked if we have 2-3 more Pelliper rises/drops before the end of the generation.
 
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