np: USUM UU Stage 6.2 - Reggaetón Lento

[Silver1989]

@ Kink and DurzaOffTopic The discussion between the two of you is kind of devolving into argument rather than actual discussion on the state of Slowbro-M in UU as a whole. Not pointing fingers at either, but I felt it should be said. We should, as a collective, keep emotions in check and focus on the actual issue of how much of an impact the mon has in the tier, by itself.

On that note, my initial views on this lean towards unban, as a person who was initially expecting this mon to be game breaking. From personal (albeit primarily low-ladder) experience, I think that the tier does have enough things to deal with Mega Bro to make it fair to use. The amount of voltturn alone is extremely annoying for Bro to deal with, as it can be showered with super-effective attacks for an extended period of time. It is true, however, that many threats with these moves will not OHKO and many will be hit back for huge damage. However, it is not without weaknesses. Serperior is a prime example of a mon that will force out Slowbro. It can't take two Leaf Storms unless it has set up multiple Calm Minds, which is an example unlikely to happen against a Serperior.

Leaf Storm Calc

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

As you can clearly see, Serperior has a chance to OHKO on a high roll, and without one, will nearly do the trick. Yes, Slowbro does 2HKO in return, but that can only happen if Serperior is switched into Slowbro, and if Slowbro is already mega, at full health. In any other scenario, Slowbro flat-out loses. Serperior may not be a direct counter, but with the way that Slowbro is being played right now, it is an example that suits my purpose (again, it's 1AM don't @ me). I just want to prove that counter-play definitely does exist to Slowbro, and I personally think that it is not too hard to play around to have in the tier.

This is not a post that took days on days of research and play testing into account, just a first look, response to some previous conversation, and my current two cents. All opinion is subject to change :) (now if only I had some small text...)

 

[Silver1989]

By the way, that Serp calc was using a set from a previous post as well that I decided to borrow for my own Mega Slowbro team, so if you're wondering about that, refer to Moutemoute's post above with pokepast.es pictures included. It is also worth noting that Amoonguss, another very viable mon at the moment, is a direct counter to the set I used, even if Slowbro goes first. If you can scout for Psyshock and it doesn't carry it, Amoon forces out Slowbro with sleep and the ability to heal off Ice Beam damage. Plus, Clear Smog will remove stat boosts. Any Roar mon will also ruin Slowbro's hopes of setting up, especially with that abysmal base 30 speed.

 

[yeezyknows]

went 38-2 w the alt 'homme d'argent,' here are my quick 6 am spring break sleep schedule thots

durza and kink really brought out their thesauruses and honestly kudos to the two of them for whipping out some cogent and detailed arguments, but i'm going to side with the king. leaning like 65-35 dnb but i can 100% understand the pro-ban side and i'm perfectly amenable to hearing all pro-ban arguments.

I do think m-bro is the least objectively broken/not-broken mon we've tested since mlati, and I think the upcoming discourse is going to be pretty important, as I assume a lot of people don't have clear-cut opinions in place yet.

https://pastebin.com/dGETfbfh

this is the mbro team i used for reqs. decently standard BO, loses turn 1 to work up mpidge and non-scarf lati 6-0s if i don't land a toxic but other than that it's pretty solid. In 40 games i never found m-bro to be too overbearing for my opponents. It's essentially a bulkier, stronger, and slower suicune. I don't think this makes it inherently broken, and i don't think it's anywhere near as threatening as mons like azu and breloom.

imo cm/scald/psyshock/rest is by far its best set. you avoid status, have strong offensive stabs and are basically unkillable after +2. however, what makes it not broken, in my eyes, is that it's very difficult to actually get to +2. UU has tons of ways to pressure m-bro, ranging from serp, to scizor, to mane, to chandelure. Even at +1, you're still susceptible to being 2hkoed by tbolt/sball/leaf storm, and rest is far from reliable recovery. Slack off, however, means that you're easily worn down by toxic and pivoting/stalling.

While cm mbro is powerful as hell, I in no way consider it objectively broken, and this trade-off from using rest/slack off makes the cm set, its most 'broken' set, inherently flawed.

slack off 3 attacks is a set I admittedly didn't see on the ladder, but I don't consider it broken at all. I know my dude sage used it on stall to get reqs, and I'd love to hear how this influenced his thoughts on mbro.

65-35 DNB

 

[Freeroamer]

My thoughts on Slowbro is that I felt genuinely hard pressed to want to put it on a team because you’d almost always want to use another Mega, because as role compression goes they offer a lot more that you can’t get elsewhere. Megas like Aerodactyl and Manectric provide a huge boon in the face of an offense matchup while something like Aggron provides Stealth Rock as well as being a catch all to a bunch of threats while Slowbro doesn’t offer you much past a bulky water and physical catch all, which for me wasn’t worth the expenditure of my mega slot when I could use something like Swampert and gain SR and a Ground, albeit at the lack of a fair few factors bro possesses. The natural reaction to this is that CM provides a bulky booster but any competent player I played was so overwhelmingly prepared for CM that I found it very mediocre and eventually switched to Scald / Ice Beam / Toxic with some Special Attack investment, which was cool as it severely limits switchins outside of Blissey but it did not remotely feel like a broken Pokemon. Maybe when people stop forcing themselves to use it for the suspect and others get it away from the forefront of the minds when building, CM bro will become really effective but from what I’ve seen so far I can’t justify keeping this mon banned.

 

[Amaroq]

In the 30 games I played for council reqs, I saw Mega Slowbro maybe twice. I didn't have trouble with it either time (one of my teams had Calm Mind RestTalk Suicune and the other was stall), but I'm not sure I see it being healthy for the tier on paper. It reminds me of Mega Latias: it's a bulky special attacker with the ability to boost and considerable offensive presence, although Mega Latias was better at handling special attackers, while Mega Slowbro is geared towards walling physical attackers. The most important differences between the two, in my opinion, are as follows: Mega Latias has much higher Speed, allowing it to pose a more immediate threat; regular Latias is much more useful than regular Slowbro; and Mega Latias has a much more balanced defensive stat spread, letting it wall and set up on more things. I'm not convinced that Mega Slowbro is broken, but I don't think it's healthy and disagree with adding more potentially broken elements to a metagame that's already saturated with threats on principle.

I'll probably try to get regular reqs using Mega Slowbro in order to develop a better understanding of its impact on the tier. I feel that few people have really attempted to explore its various options (or even use it at all) and would like to try out various sets myself as well. I'm surprised that no one's talking about the Calm Mind + Iron Defense set, as that was one of the sets that got Mega Slowbro banned to begin with. Rest allows Mega Slowbro to compensate for the vulnerability to Toxic associated with its standard sets at the cost of increased passivity, and Iron Defense lets it wall physical attackers even more effectively. I might post more once I have used Mega Slowbro a bit more, but, as of now, I don't think it's a healthy addition to the tier.

PS:
Comments like these make me scared because you actually think Breloom is unhealthy and that's just a wrong opinion.

Guess I scare you too.

 

[Sage]

Got my reqs, I don't have much to say but there's a couple things worth mentioning.

Slack Off 3 Attacks: This is probably the best set when fighting against anything close to Offense. You can punish switch ins with Ice Beam / Fire Blast or Psyshock when they're not expecting it, and just in general are a good pivot / blanket check to physical attackers, particularly Azumarill. With good prediction this set effectively threatens checks by hitting them wth coverage on the switch. However, you trade off your better offense matchup with a completely inability to do anything to special walls, which you could at least use as set up bait with CM / Iron Defense sets. Sylveon gets free wishes, Empoleon gets free Defog / Rocks, etc. Toxic is also a huge issue because this set can't run Rest to compensate for that or you lose too much momentum, especially if you're forced to Mega and lose regenerator. And it's not like Offense can't break the 3 attacks set. Here is a list of offensive Pokemon that beat 3 Attacks M Bro in neutral. Serperior, Mega Manectric, Celebi, Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, Raikou, offensive Azelf. Hell most of these can't be ohkoed even with the correct coverage move.



CM Iron Defense: Amaroq talked about this above, and there's one thing that is here now that wasn't the first time we banned Slowbro: Weed. Grass types have been running amok lately, with Serperior and Breloom being highly effective on many teams. Tsareena and Celebi have also seen relevant usage and both pressure M-Bro well. Mono scald let's in all them for free, having to rely on burns / Iron Defense to check Breloom and Tsareena, while Serp + Celebi doesn't give a shit no matter what. Psyshock leaves you walled by dark types.

All the major archetypes in my opinion have adequate counterplay to every Slowbro set. Stall outlasts it for the most part, being able to chip it's partners as it fishes for regen, as well as any Taunt users shutting it down in end game scenarios. For balance, Sylveon can WishPass safely on Bro so the breakers come in for free regardless of coverage, Amoonguss can spore it (and it can creep the creeping slowbros too :P), as well as teams generally carrying Toxic for bulkier walls it can struggle to break through. Offensive teams have Serp, Mane, Hydreigon, Celebi, and more that all pressure it well.

I support Amaroq's notion for more experimentation with Iron Defense sets as it's something I haven't personally used and only faced once. But for now, I will be voting unban.

 

[justdrew]

Yeet

Got my reqs. Out of the 40 games I played on this account I saw 0 mega bros, really sad.

A couple of things before I get into my thoughts on mega bro. I’m not an amazing UU player and I got reqs so I encourage everyone from all skill levels to try! Shout out to Yeezy who’s team which isabsolutely heater, I suggest checking it out, got my reqs. After 5 different failed alts testing teams I built I thought it was time I find a solid team someone else made and came across yeezys on this thread.

I am very unsure whether Mega bro should be banned or not. It has rest and calm mind, can’t be crit, and ridiculous special defense. But it can be set up on while asleep or worn down with toxic if it is slack off instead of rest.

After a lot of thought I’ve decided to vote unban. The only way it can’t be stalled out by toxic is with rest. Rest makes it easy to set up on with scizor, azu, and loom, all huge threats in this meta. It is a much needed stall breaker and a cool mon in general. Feel free to respond to my opinion I’m always open to change my mind.

 

[YouthBerry]

After achieving reqs in the minimum games limit, I feel like I should share my thoughts on the suspect test of Mega Slowbro. I’ll start off by saying that before I played any battles for this suspect test, I was heavily on the ban side of the argument. My reasoning was it ate physical attacks like snacks…even the hardest of super effective ones in the tier:

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega:182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO

- 252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 252 HP /216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 164-196 (41.6 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It just slacks off against these attacks which is ridiculous. And Mega Slowbro isn’t passive either as it can 2HKO most of it’s most common checks like Mega Manetric and Hydreigon with the right coverage meaning they switch in once:

- 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric-Mega: 130-154 (46.2 -54.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO. Turns into a guaranteed 2HKO with Rocks up

- 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 178-210 (54.7 -64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even Serperior and Celebi get 2HKO’d by Ice Beam (Celebi is after rocks) and while they mitigate that risk with Leech Seed/Giga Drain/synthesis recovery, it still shows that Mega Slowbro can pressure it’s common checks on the switchin and is not passive. So on paper, you have a mon that is borderline impossible to break on the physical side (Mega Sharpedo and Crawdaunt and SD Scizor can win 1v1 if they avoid burn. Even Life Orb Breloom needs 4 hits of Bullet Seed to have just a 6.3% chance to OHKO and nets a guaranteed OHKO with 5 hits), and can pressure it’s common switchins with the appropriate coverage. On paper, it sounds broken imo.

Now I’ve played about 60 games in total in this suspect test in total between 2 different alts, and I don’t think Mega Slowbro is as good in actual battle as on paper. I started the suspect testing by using a BO offence team that had CM Electrium Z Latias plus CB Scizor plus Mega Manectric to handle Mega Slowbro (I ended up facing just 2 Mega Slowbro in about 20 games) and that team was able to handle Mega Slowbro pretty effectively because I prepared for it. Now one game was more difficult because the opposition had an Alolan Muk alongside Mega Slowbro which made CM Latias pretty useless until I wore the Muk down…and in theory if my opponent had played well with doubles, Alolan Muk could have made it really difficult by chipping/removing Latias and Mega Manectric which would have opened up the game for his Mega Slowbro. Also note that Stall is coming posted a list of mons in the tier that can check/counter Mega Slowbro which is helpful, but look at how many if those Alolan Muk pressures, particularly the ones considered offensive checks/counters to Mega Slowbro. And it should be noted that for the offensive checks/counters, you kind of have to go into them right away as +2 Mega Slowbro starts to become too much for things like Hydreigon, Serperior, Celebi, and Mega Manectric to break. That need to go into your offensive check/counter early before Mega Slowbro starts setting up too much creates opportunities for doubles that mons like Alolan Muk can take advantage of to pressure common answers to Mega Slowbro. Just food for thought from a gameplay perspective.

The 2nd team I used was the one I ended up getting reqs with, and it was a Mega Slowbro spike stacking team. I wanted to use Mega Bro to get the full picture of it’s viability in the tier and my experience with Mega Bro was very good but I couldn’t help but notice it’s limitations. I used a Calm Mind/Scald/Ice Beam/Slack off set with the standard calculator spread (252HP/216 Def/40 SpD). First, I will say that it is truly obnoxious on the physical side and it acted as a supreme physical wall and overall tank for me. I was able to use it to check/counter things like all the DD dragons (Mega Altaria, Haxorus, and Kommo-o), all the physical fire attackers, pretty much all the fighting types (Volt Switch Cobalion is a thing now in response), SD Gliscor, Stakataka and more. Even the Low Ladder favorite Ambipom gets walled. I did find Mega Slowbro to be very meh on the special side though, and even at +1 it wasn’t eating special hits very well. Furthermore, I noticed that it lacks relevant resists, the fighting and psychic resists gained by its typing over other bulky water type really only help it against Cobalion, Physically attacking Infernape, Terrakion, and physically attacking Lucario. On the opposite side, it opens it up to Bug types, dark types, and ghost types that other bulky waters like Suicune are less scared of. I also noticed that the lack of speed that Mega Slowbro has is really apparent, it is very consistently moving 2nd. That’s fine, but it’s constantly at the mercy of the opponent and always on the lookout for stray toxic’s or whatever which is a problem if you aren’t running rest (I’ll get into my thoughts on rest sets later).

Now I want to understand where people are getting this idea of Mega Slowbro being a stall breaker…what am I missing here because I think it does close to 0 in a stall matchup besides be a pivot with Regenerator (pre-evolved)? Doesn't Amoongus plus Blissey just slow it down?

If you're running CM Iron defense with rest then Amoongus is a hard stop if you're running Scald...especially with rest turns

If you're running CM Rest/Talk same thing

If you're running Psychic/Psyshock over Scald on either of those sets above, you get toxic stalled by Alomomla + Blissey + Amoongus can clear smog in rest turns. You also can't touch dark types and now Latias with recover (against psychic sets) and Scizor set up on you

If you’re running Ice Beam over Scald on either of the 1st two sets above, you now get walled by Blissey, steel and water types and potential Scizor set up on you

If you're running CM with both Scald and Psychic/Psyshock with Rest then Blissey walls you until you rest and then Amoongus comes in and Clear Smogs away

Amroq mentioned the lack of exploration of CM Iron Defense sets, but I think there is reason why it is being considered not the most viable of sets and Sage of the 6 covered it well. Mono attacking Slowbro is always vulnerable to something and that makes it less consistent than the other sets. Grass types are everywhere and that makes Scald lacklustre, Psychic/Psyshock will mean you get walled by dark types and now Scizor sets up on you, Ice Beam gets walled by Water and Steel types. There is no perfect coverage option and that makes it inconsistent at best in terms of viability. Rest sets are also kinda rough imo as they open up set-up opportunities at times and force you to run a cleric which is easily done but can also be taken advantage of. I really think the best sets are CM/Scald/Ice Beam with Slack off (could run rest too ifyou have a cleric), or the offensive variation with SpA investment that aims to catch typical checks/counters with a hard super effective move.

Overall, my opinion on Mega Slowbro went from the hard ban side, to after using it I’m a lot closer to neutral and that’s why I want to hear more opinions on the mon and how you think the tier would shape around it. I think in terms of viability in the tier, it’s not completely broken as there are a fair number of ways to break Mega Slowbro despite it’s ridiculous bulk and I think it would settle in around an A on the viability rankings. My question is how healthy is it for the tier having this physically defensive beast, and how does the tier shape around it. I don’t know about you, but I saw a TON of Volt-turn teams with Mega Manectric and Scizor and Hydreigon…and I think that will be common if Mega Slowbro is freed from BL. I also saw a bunch of fat balance/semi-stall teams that Mega Bro fit well on so I would expect that to continue as well. Would that style tier be satisfying for everyone?

 

[Miraklez]

I just want to point out a common mistake people make and that is thinking that against stall cm mbro is next to useless. This is simply not true, unless you are facing some wierd empoleon or serp stall. When playing against stall it is not hard to bait out random scalds. If your opponent gets 1 scaldburn on slowbro, mbro goes from easily dealt with to huge threat instantly. This ofcourse doesn't mean mbro is anywhere near broken, and nothing I said here reflects my opinion on whether or mbro is too much for UU or not. I just wanted to point this out.

 

[Jade]

Hello, I would like to show my opinion on this suspect.

In my opinion, this has been the most controversial suspect since Mega Latias. There is arguing everywhere, and if you don't agree, you get bashed (there is no "right opinion). This has made me stay neutral, after many debates both here and on PS. You may not agree with me, but let me just say this: don't feel scared about people bashing you for you not agreeing with them. There is nothing wrong with having a different opinion. I love everyone here on the forums, even with all the bashing and arguing.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel some people have been looking at mega bro just on paper and not in practice. Most people I've watched get reqs and say mega bro is broken haven't even faced or used it, which seems awkward.

Anywho, sorry for this little rant. I just hope everyone has a good day, and don't be afraid of the bashing going around.

 

[xMarth]

For this suspect I wanted to use Mega-Slowbro to its fullest. After reading many comments on how it's a very passive Pokemon I decided there would be no better place for it than stall teams. This is where I really found its true potentially broken aspect. I made a very generic stall team outside of SpDef Stakataka and then replaced Alomomola with a standard set of CM/Slack Off/Scald/Psyshock Mega Slowbro. I was surprised how effective Mega Slowbro actually makes stall and if it gets unbanned I'm seriously considering bringing stall to all of my future tour games.

First point I want to address is that Mega Slowbro is really not that passive. Passive Pokemon like Alomomola or Blissey or Amoonguss do not require an immediate response and that is certainly not the case with Mega Slowbro. If a player wants to check Mega Slowbro offensively they have to switch into their offensive check asap otherwise it has too many Calm Minds to break through. This becomes a huge problem when playing against stall as the games last too long for offensive Pokemon to keep Mega Slowbro in check. Toxic becomes a non issue for Mega Slowbro on stall because the only users of Toxic that aren't directly threatened by Mega Slowbro are too passive to actually threaten the myriad of status absorbers stall has at its disposal. This means whenever you send in something like Mantine for example to counter Mega Slowbro it never really lands the Toxic.

I've had questions of what Mega Slowbro brings to the table on stall when compared to something like Alomomola. Well it actually gives stall a fantastic win condition as well as a physical counter to threats that stall previously had no solid answer for.

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 212-250 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 272-324 (90.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 243-286 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 118-141 (40.2 - 48.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Haxorus and Heracross are considered premier counters to stall and Mega Slowbro is able to either take a hit and OHKO in the case of Heracross or force Haxorus to Outrage which makes Haxorus far more exploitable. These Pokemon are without a doubt two of the most threatening Pokemon for stall to face and Mega Slowbro can switch into and beat them both where as Alomomola would just switch out.

I've been seeing it mentioned over the past few months that stall is already too strong of a play style and Mega Slowbro just makes it stronger. I went 40-1 for reqs using stall and it was simultaneously the easiest and most painful suspect test I've ever participated in. I'm firmly voting BAN on Mega Slowbro and I'll finish this post with a couple of replays that show Mega Slowbro at its finest.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-717614582
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-717554776

As a side note, I was wondering why this suspect was done before a possible Scizor suspect? If there were any plans for a Scizor suspect in the future it really should have been before Mega Slowbro because the result of a Scizor suspect would undoubtedly effect this suspect if it were banned as the play style that Mega Slowbro is weakest against, VoltTurn, would be much worse w/o Scizor. I haven't lost hope that Scizor suspect will happen eventually I was just confused why Mega Slowbro was chosen first as both posts had about the same support.

 

[CantoakaChris]

Welcome friends,

I'm by far not the most experienced player, but I want to ad a M-Bro-Set to the discussion, which I haven't seen in this Thread so far.

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 32 SpAtk / 160 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Echoed Voice
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Rest

It works like the similar Mono-Attack Bro's but E-Voice is better for sweeping because:

1. Only Ghosts are immun to E-Voice and these are (thanks to Pursuit-Muk/Krook) easy to catch.
2. Echoed Voice usualy sucks, because you never have the time to not-recover after a while. But M-Bro at +6 Def/+6SpDef has this time.
3. Echoed Voice gives M-Bro a good Stall-Matchup.... right? I mean, I've played only once against stall, but it beats Unaware Quag and Blissey with (boosted) E-Voice, thanks to the stacking damage.

Quagsire Calcs

It's hard to deliver good calcs, because E-Voice isn't in the Calculator. But I used Tri-Attack (80), Techno Blast (120) and Hyperbeam (150) as comparison. As U know, E-Voice goes to 200; but Toxic exists.
32 SpA Slowbro-Mega Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%)
32 SpA Slowbro-Mega Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 157-185 (39.8 - 46.9%)
32 SpA Slowbro-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -> so E-Voice does less

I would be very happy, if some of you guys would give this set a chance and help me to find it's value in the Metagame. I collected some replays for you guys, which aren't High-Ladder material, but still show what E-Voice bro is capable of.

This is the most important replay. E-Voice 'bro does not struggle in front of Psychic or Water immunitys. He 6-0's a Team with Volcanion and Krook. (Roar on Aggron would've changed the game.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718483669

Other replays

Bro (would've) 6-0'ed players who predicted the wrong set/had no Phazer.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718530652
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718534179
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718453111

Bro cleans lategame
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718489788

Dislaimer: Sorry for my poor language, but i think you got my point ;) E-Voice > Scald/Psychic

 

[WMAR]

Welcome friends,

I'm by far not the most experienced player, but I want to ad a M-Bro-Set to the discussion, which I haven't seen in this Thread so far.

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 32 SpAtk / 160 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Echoed Voice
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Rest

It works like the similar Mono-Attack Bro's but E-Voice is better for sweeping because:

1. Only Ghosts are immun to E-Voice and these are (thanks to Pursuit-Muk/Krook) easy to catch.
2. Echoed Voice usualy sucks, because you never have the time to not-recover after a while. But M-Bro at +6 Def/+6SpDef has this time.
3. Echoed Voice gives M-Bro a good Stall-Matchup.... right? I mean, I've played only once against stall, but it beats Unaware Quag and Blissey with (boosted) E-Voice, thanks to the stacking damage.

Quagsire Calcs

It's hard to deliver good calcs, because E-Voice isn't in the Calculator. But I used Tri-Attack (80), Techno Blast (120) and Hyperbeam (150) as comparison. As U know, E-Voice goes to 200; but Toxic exists.
32 SpA Slowbro-Mega Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%)
32 SpA Slowbro-Mega Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 157-185 (39.8 - 46.9%)
32 SpA Slowbro-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -> so E-Voice does less

I would be very happy, if some of you guys would give this set a chance and help me to find it's value in the Metagame. I collected some replays for you guys, which aren't High-Ladder material, but still show what E-Voice bro is capable of.

This is the most important replay. E-Voice 'bro does not struggle in front of Psychic or Water immunitys. He 6-0's a Team with Volcanion and Krook. (Roar on Aggron would've changed the game.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718483669

Other replays

Bro (would've) 6-0'ed players who predicted the wrong set/had no Phazer.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718530652
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718534179
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718453111

Bro cleans lategame
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-718489788

Dislaimer: Sorry for my poor language, but i think you got my point ;) E-Voice > Scald/Psychic

Funny Meme man but this thread isn't for these memes

 

[CantoakaChris]

Funny Meme man but this thread isn't for these memes

Hey friend, would you please back up your claim that E-Voice M-Slowbro is a meme? I wouldn't post this, if I would think it's a meme. If you disagree with me, explain me why this set isn't worth any consideration; it would help me a lot.

Claim 1: Rest-Calm Mind-Iron Defense is the strongest Slowbro-Set, if you want to use it as wincon.
Claim 2: If you want to use Mono-Attack 'bro, a Normal-Type move is superior over water or psychic, because Normal has less Hard-counters.
Claim 3: The preperation to "catch" a ghost type is easier then for Dark-types in general or Water-Absorbers/Suicune.

- - -

Edit: Spelling

 

[Jade]

I wouldnt say rest/cm/iron defense is a good wincon. Yes, it can be useful late-game, but it takes ages to set up. It's also easily pressured. Serperior, Hydreigon, Mega Manectric are just a few of the many mons that can pressure this set. EV is very weak on the first and second turns and relies on your opponent letting you set up. Id say CM + Slack Off + 2 attacks is better, honestly. Everyone is overprepped as hell for Calm Mind, so I feel CM honestly isnt its best set atm. I like Slack Off + 3 attacks better and have had more success with it, as it can lure in things that expect it to CM and hit them with a super effective move.

 

[WMAR]

Hey friend, would you please back up your claim that E-Voice M-Slowbro is a meme? I wouldn't post this, if I would think it's a meme. If you disagree with me, explain me why this set isn't worth any consideration; it would help me a lot.

Claim 1: Rest-Calm Mind-Iron Defense is the strongest Slowbro-Set, if you want to use it as wincon.
Claim 2: If you want to use Mono-Attack 'bro, a Normal-Type move is superior over water or psychic, because Normal has less Hard-counters.
Claim 3: The preperation to "catch" a ghost type is easier then for Dark-types in general or Water-Absorbers/Suicune.

- - -

Edit: Spelling

alright i thought this was a joke but i see you are genuine, which isn't good.

So Mega Slowbro is suppose to check the physical steel and fighting types etc in the tier and be a wincon in some builds. This set is walled by steel types and Echoed Voice is a meme move, really isn't recommended to use cause its a bad move in general. Slowbro has amazing coverage but of all moves, you pick normal type? you said you aren't experienced so i will cut you some slack. Walled by ghost but you have ways, but also walled by steel types and Cobalion takes advantage of a piss weak move. Echoed voice is a meme move and i **HIGHLY** suggest you use a different move

 

[Yahooboo]

alright i thought this was a joke but i see you are genuine, which isn't good.

So Mega Slowbro is suppose to check the physical steel and fighting types etc in the tier and be a wincon in some builds. This set is walled by steel types and Echoed Voice is a meme move, really isn't recommended to use cause its a bad move in general. Slowbro has amazing coverage but of all moves, you pick normal type? you said you aren't experienced so i will cut you some slack. Walled by ghost but you have ways, but also walled by steel types and Cobalion takes advantage of a piss weak move. Echoed voice is a meme move and i **HIGHLY** suggest you use a different move

+3 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 219-258 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Slowbro-Mega: 174-206 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO (after iron defense boosts this is pitiful)
+3 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 140-165 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
not exactly walled by steel types, eh?

 

[WMAR]

+3 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 219-258 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Slowbro-Mega: 174-206 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO (after iron defense boosts this is pitiful)
+3 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 140-165 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
not exactly walled by steel types, eh?

hyper beam, ah yes, set up bait after wards. Slowbro has fire blast and can use it, scald can do damage and burn them steel types. Point is, don't run normal coverage when it isn't needed

 

[Yahooboo]

hyper beam, ah yes, set up bait after wards. Slowbro has fire blast and can use it, scald can do damage and burn them steel types. Point is, don't run normal coverage when it isn't needed

hyper beam was used as a comparison to echoed voice, im not actually saying run hyper beam...

 

[CantoakaChris]

alright i thought this was a joke but i see you are genuine, which isn't good.

So Mega Slowbro is suppose to check the physical steel and fighting types etc in the tier and be a wincon in some builds. This set is walled by steel types and Echoed Voice is a meme move, really isn't recommended to use cause its a bad move in general. Slowbro has amazing coverage but of all moves, you pick normal type? you said you aren't experienced so i will cut you some slack. Walled by ghost but you have ways, but also walled by steel types and Cobalion takes advantage of a piss weak move. Echoed voice is a meme move and i **HIGHLY** suggest you use a different move

I'm glad you responded friend.

The relevant question isn't how much 40 Basepower does to a Coba at +0 , the question is: Is M-Slowbro able to get his setup to +6/+6/+6 in the current Meta, to click E-Voice 3 times+ in a row. As you might not know, E-Voice gets stronger, every timeyou click it (kinda like metronome). Because a +6 Def /+6 SpDef has no reason to click anything else 4 the next 2 years, you can abuse a 120-160 BP Strong normal move.

+6 /+6 Defenses

252 SpA Meadow Plate Celebi Leaf Storm vs. +6 252 HP / 160+ SpD Slowbro-Mega: 98-116 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. +6 252 HP / 160+ SpD Slowbro-Mega: 68-84 (17.2 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +6 252 HP / 160+ SpD Slowbro-Mega: 60-72 (15.2 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO

How steal "stops" Bro (3rd E-Voice=120BP=Techno Blaster)

+6 32 SpA Slowbro-Mega Techno Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 288-339 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+6 32 SpA Slowbro-Mega Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 184-216 (53.6 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The point about this kind of 'bro is not to attack at +0 in any case; it's about getting your boosts, before the opponent stops you.
As D2P2 HD said,

Yes, it can be useful late-game, but it takes ages to set up. It's also easily pressured. Serperior, Hydreigon, Mega Manectric are just a few of the many mons

I claim that M-Manetric, Serperior, Chandelure and many other threats to Slowbro have one thing in common; they are easy to Pursuit-trap. Pursuit, as broken as it is, allows catch 'bros Checks, till it can sweep in the lategame. Till then, it's a fine sponge 4 scald etc.

But at this point, I'll rest my case. I'm not profiled enough as a player to make big claims and i have not enough ressources to back up my "ifs". Thanks 4 reading.

- - -

Edit: As Yahooboo pointed out, you might not understand how echoed voice works. Sorry for my bad explaination. Read this.

 

[justdrew]

alright i thought this was a joke but i see you are genuine, which isn't good.

So Mega Slowbro is suppose to check the physical steel and fighting types etc in the tier and be a wincon in some builds. This set is walled by steel types and Echoed Voice is a meme move, really isn't recommended to use cause its a bad move in general. Slowbro has amazing coverage but of all moves, you pick normal type? you said you aren't experienced so i will cut you some slack. Walled by ghost but you have ways, but also walled by steel types and Cobalion takes advantage of a piss weak move. Echoed voice is a meme move and i **HIGHLY** suggest you use a different move

I'd just like to comment on this conversation going on right now. CantoakaChris did get reqs and although he may isn't an experienced player as he said, he sure proved he is competent at this tier. The whole purpose of a suspect test is to test said Pokemon. Although the set is weird, maybe even unorthodox, it sure proved it functions on the ladder. I suggest you be more open to sets and kind to the people that play this tier and that you attempt to get reqs and form your own opinion on Mega Slowbro.

Marth brings up an important point on how it will add to the strength of stall teams. But won't it also be used to beat stall teams? Either way I think it is a very strong Pokemon. It checks common threats but is also beaten by common threats and each variant I have seen has some sort of check. This is looking like it's going to be a really close vote and I think there should be more in depth discussion to sway those on the border. I will admit I am one of the few who is not sure what to vote.

Just like to make it clear Echoed Voice Slowbro is not a good set, all I am saying is be more open. And for those saying reqs are insanely easy to get, they may be easy to you but not some people. Let's not start pointing fingers at who deserves to vote and who doesn't. Without the game limit and COIL reqs have been easier to get but they aren't so easy that, as Kink puts it, charizardlover9000 can walk in and get reqs.

 

[Pearl]

As a side note, I was wondering why this suspect was done before a possible Scizor suspect? If there were any plans for a Scizor suspect in the future it really should have been before Mega Slowbro because the result of a Scizor suspect would undoubtedly effect this suspect if it were banned as the play style that Mega Slowbro is weakest against, VoltTurn, would be much worse w/o Scizor. I haven't lost hope that Scizor suspect will happen eventually I was just confused why Mega Slowbro was chosen first as both posts had about the same support.

As I said in a previous post of mine somewhere in the past np thread, I've been wanting to talk about my thoughts on the metagame as a whole for a while now. I'll just use this statement (as well as the current suspect test) as an excuse to do so, while also hopefully answering your question. I'll try to keep this short enough so that it isn't too tedious to follow in its entirety, but I'm sorry if I drag this out too much.

In my opinion, there are three Pokemon in UU at the moment that are clearly above everything else; those being Azumarill, Scizor and Gliscor (ordered from most "broken" to least, based on how I see it). Azumarill has always been a very divisive Pokemon, even when it was dropped for the first time back in early SM, with opinions ranging from "blatantly overpowered" to "balanced in UU". I was originally on the side of the former, and it took me a while to accept the fact that there was a chance Azumarill would be in the tier (during the early USM suspect test). What ended up convincing me that Azumarill could be a healthy addition to UU was the fact that, unlike other heavy hitters that have been recently introduced to UU or retested in it, this Pokemon has what is probably the best dual typing in the game from a defensive standpoint, while also having enough utility to keep a couple of threats at bay. However, after preparing teams with it in mind throughout a whole SPL season, my personal stance has shifted a little, and while Azumarill remains as divisive as it has ever been, I personally feel like it is way too good in its current state and should probably receive a public suspect test eventually (bar a major tier shift). The typing that allows it to perform its task defensively makes it just as threatening offensively when coupled with its ability, and its natural bulk is good enough to guarantee that it gets to do damage. However, what pushes Azumarill above the "really good" benchmark into the "suspect worthy" one is how poorly equipped the tier is to handle it overall. Only a grand total of 4 Pokemon (Amoonguss, Empoleon, Volcanion and Tentacruel) can "safely" switch into Choice Band Azumarill, while most of our fast Pokemon are either weak to Aqua Jet or are very easy to put in range of a KO. Plus, all of Azumarill's supposed switch ins are prone to losing to either Belly Drum/Perish Trap or the proper coverage move on CB Azu (Knock Off / Ice Punch). It is also true that you can revenge kill it with Pokemon such as Latias or rely on a combination of Water resist + Fairy resist and outplaying to deal with it, and while I'm most likely underestimating the power of both of these strategies out of bias, it still feels to me that, often times, Azumarill is way too restrictive, both on paper and in actual games.

Scizor, a.k.a. the Pokemon that compelled me to finally get this post done is a slightly different case, and one that happens very rarely in tiering from what I've witnessed up until now. If I had to make a direct comparison to another Pokemon in another tier, it would probably be ORAS NU Sawk: even though it cemented its place as a UU staple for a vast majority of the generation, it was eventually suspect tested and banned by the public. While I have no way of guaranteeing Scizor will witness the same fate (nor do I actually want it to at the moment), the fact that it's grown to be a tier staple widely accepted by a lot of people as a good thing (or rather, a "not bad" thing) while also gathering a group of people who see it as "broken" definitely shows that the posts against it are not completely baseless, and I do agree that some of less good consequences it has on our tier can be felt even nowadays. For starters, I tend to blame the decline of offensive teams (Hyper Offense, but also less common sub-archetypes such as Sticky Web and such) on this Pokemon, as even though it's one of the best members of those sort of teams, its presence on slower paced builds also tends to be enough to single handily shut down many of other offense's most reliable Pokemon. That said though, Scizor is also holding the tier together in its own way, and I wouldn't be surprised to see things becoming a little hectic if we were to just ban it out (with this, I'm trying to say that priority Bullet Punch really helps keeping things such as Mega Altaria, Latias and Mega Aerodactyl from single handily walking all over the tier). I know that "checking broken with broken" is not a good argument to keep Pokemon around, but I personally do not consider Scizor a primary issue with the tier regardless of how many 6-0'd by Swords Dance Scizor teams people end up making. To sum it up, do not expect Scizor to receive a public suspect test in the near future, but don't assume it's getting entirely disregarded. I'm open to people's arguments on this one even if this isn't really in the agenda at the moment.

EDIT:

sort of a summed up version of the paragraph above

Gliscor is the last of the bunch and also the one I'll talk about the last. For reference, I went through a phase where I advocated for a serious Gliscor suspect test (sometime after Smogon Snake Draft ended). However, I feel like the tier has done a very good job adapting to this Pokemon's presence, and that it is no longer the monster I once perceived it to be. Besides that, I'll admit that I really used to overestimate the power of Swords Dance Gliscor, and while it's true that it can single handily run through poorly prepared teams, having to make the trade off between wanting to outpace stuff or taking hits better can be a huge game changer in practical scenarios, and taking up to 70% from Mega Altaria's Hyper Voice while being used to easily shrug it off because of the huge Special Defense investment that Stealth Rock Gliscor often runs is honestly not fun in the slightest.

Moving on to the suspect test, I'll admit that I sort of half-assed my voting requirements and only played around 10 games or so while using Mega Slowbro. However, contrary to the experience of other people who have posted here, I happen to have faced a fair share of Mega Slowbros myself. In my opinion, people are underselling this Pokemon's potential, and I wouldn't really be surprised to see a completely wild set take over the metagame by storm in a couple of months. However, until that happens I will most likely be voting Do Not Ban. In spite of this perceived versatility, all of Slowbro's set have their fair share of counterplay: standard Calm Mind is vulnerable to Toxic users and strong offensive Pokemon before it evolves, Rest variants give away free turns to threatening Pokemon (some of them also possessing the option to set up alongside Mega Slowbro) and non Calm Mind sets, while being a pain in the ass to cover defensively (I'm talking Toxic + 2 Attacks and 3 Attacks + either Slack Off or Trick Room here), are simply not as oppressive to play against and can be pressured through the usage of strong special attackers at pretty much any point in the game. Another thing that goes against this Pokemon is the fact that, in order to avoid residual damage, it often has to stay in its regular form to make usage of Regenerator. This means that, for the earlier stages of the game (that is, until it is ready to win the game by itself), this Pokemon is also prone to being pressured by stronger physical attackers such as the aforementioned Choice Band Azumarill. That aside, a lot of users have already expressed a similar stance to mine, and I urge anyone who's read this whole post to also read said posts if you're having a hard time choosing what to vote or think.

 

[Pearl]

Actually, I forgot to say a thing or two about Mega Slowbro due to tiredness, and I feel like just editing my post would make it way too likely for this to get lost among that wall of text. First, Mega Slowbro has to compete with other Pokemon for a mega slot on teams, and while this doesn't seem like a huge deal when you consider that most people would just make the trade off to have a supposedly "broken" Pokemon on their squads, the truth is that a lot of teams that Slowbro would find itself fitting onto are heavily reliant on Pokemon such as Aggron and Aerodactyl to glue them together, often relying on Swampert, Suicune and other bulky waters to perform a similar role to this Pokemon. This brings me onto my next point: Stall. From what I've seen so far, a lot of people are concerned about how this Pokemon could potentially push the archetype over the edge. However, I'd like to remind people that stall already has at least 3 other mega Pokemon it would like to have within it, and picking Mega Slowbro as your mega slot keeps you away from using Pokemon such as Mega Altaria (probably a top 2 Defog user), Mega Aggron/Steelix (probably the best two Steel-type Pokemon for the archetype) and Mega Aerodactyl (provides these teams with Speed, Pursuit and a more reliable answer to unorthodox stallbreakers). I'm not excluding the chance that this does in fact happen and Mega Slowbro stall becomes incredibly good, but I still think it's worth it to remind people that things aren't quite as simple in practice.

 

[sparrow]

Coming into this suspect I, amongst many others, was eager to see how Mega Slowbro would fit in the current metagame. I had a fair idea of how it would match up versus certain archetypes but was unsure how it would fit on particular builds and function against teams with Choice Band Scizor, Mega Manectric, Breloom, Hydregon etc. being so common. I was interested to see where M-Bro would sit in the current meta and had some preliminary thoughts heading into this suspect test.

Initially I thought that the opportunity cost of running M-Bro would be far too great, considering you'd be giving up your mega slot, thereby foregoing a different mega altogether and expecting M-Bro to fulfil the role of bulky water on its team in one slot. Like others I thought M-Bro was far too passive to threaten any of the fast paced offence builds. Furthermore, giving up Regenerator upon mega evolution is a large hindrance to its longevity through out the match.

I ended up playing close to 100 matches on the suspect ladder spread over 3-4 alts (reaching reqs twice 36-4, 33-7). There's not much to add to what's already been said about M-Bro already but I'd like to add that it's certainly not limited to archetypes such as bulky / balance / stall builds. I've seen it successfully used on Spike stack offence, and I myself have used it on a bulky offence build utilising three attacks M-Bro as a decent mid game pivot. The point I am trying to elude to here is how deceptively versatile M-Bro can be for its team, I also don't think that it's overly difficult to support. It's not weak to Pursuit trap thanks to its bulk, recovery and Scald burns. The second point I am making is the fact that M-Bro is very difficult to take down, by virtue of its base forms ability and its incredible bulk upon mega evolution.

I myself ran volturn specifically on one of my alts and found that M-Bro wasn't overly a pain unless it managed to get in for free on something like a Defog, Stealth Rock, or choice locked moves (all of which are painfully obvious and easy to take advantage of against volturn imo). The problem was when it came to switching into Slowbro / Mega Slowbro. Coverage coupled with 130 base SpA made switching into M Bro a terror, a simple set of CM / Scald / Ice beam / Slack Off was able to adequately threaten a successful volturn team of mine relatively easily, being able to 2/3HKO the majority of an offensively inclined team. Slowbro was also able to set up versus this team after either Mega Manectric was weakened, Scizor was not in 1v1 situation (risking the burn), or Nihilego had used its Z Thunder already (my last resort was Dark Pulse flinches). With a heavy offence build not even specifically centred around adjusting itself in any way against the M Bro meta, I was quite successful on ladder, though I've been able to point out how Slowbro was able to beat this team / similar team if the right conditions were met. I honestly don't think this would be an issue, but simply going against the threat of knowing that Slowbro could mega evolve at any moment and really start to hurt that team was threatening in itself - something that Slowbro is unable to achieve without its mega stone.

I don't have much else to add in regard to my experience with M-Bro on bulky / balance builds that hasn't already been stipulated here. I found its 3 attacks set to be very useful especially during the early / mid game and that mind game of "when am I going to mega" (yes I find the added power that significant) was always fun to use against my opponents (Freeroamer can attest to this one - sorry mate!).

Lastly, I'd like to address the issue of M Bro stall, I was fortunate enough not to face this archetype, my game plan would have stayed the same tbh, Pursuit & Taunt the relevant 'mons and use volturn initiative in my favour. However, I did watch some decent matches that used M Bro stall, and was very intrigued by the build that xMarth had created in particular. I'm of the opinion that a mega is not overly necessary to run stall successfully, heck I've seen our most consistent ladder player use Blissey / Scizor / Nihilego / Crobat / Alomomola / Quagsire numerous times to great success. Obviously I cannot compare ladder and high level tournament play but given our sample size is literally a test ladder I feel there is some merit to saying that M-Bro isn't always competing for a mega slot on stall builds - and an argument could be made that M-Bro could sometimes be the superior pick depending on the build itself.

I truly believe that M-Bro stall is a serious threat moving forward, I feel I've adequately been able to stipulate how M-Bro was able to threaten a successful volturn build. Yes, it does compete for a mega slot on its team, and yes its mega form loses Regenerator, but it doesn't lose late game longevity. It's immune to crits and its 130 base SpA severely limits its opponents opportunities to switch in, especially when using offence - something that xMarth had pointed out in their post. Coupled with its great coverage as well as a suitable amount of versatility I think that M-Bro is unhealthy in our current meta and will be voting: BAN.

 

[Yifeng]

I have 2 regrets in life thus far: not investing in cryptocurrency 5 years ago, and voting unban on Breloom on the previous suspect test.

If you're looking for a well researched and coherent essay about the viability of Mega Slowbro, you'll be disappointed.

I think Mega Slowbro in the current meta is pretty mediocre, so I will go against my intuition this time and vote ban.

That being said, like the Breloom suspect, I think everyone is prepared out the ass for whatever is being suspected. So I do think think once the heat dies down a bit, Mega Slowbro will become pretty good.