np: USUM UU Stage 7 - Too Good At Goodbyes (Azumarill banned, Breloom and Serperior remain UU)

[Sage]

Since when running Sleep Talk on some Pokemon doesn't show how unhealthy a Pokemon is ?
You have to trade a useful move (Healing Wish / Trick) solely to be able to deal with one Pokemon ?

One of the points which were put forward for Azumarill was the fact that people have to run Shed Shell on Alomomola to deal with it. It's exactly the same if people have to run Safety Goggles or Sleep Talk on their Pokemon.

I definitively disagree with all that have being said. It's not that easy to pressure Breloom since all the Pokemon that can pressure it can't switch on it if you have not scout its moveset. Yeah you have to do 5 hit with LO Bullet Seed to OHKO Gliscor but that also mean Gliscor can't come more than 2/3 times on Breloom (and if you Roost and Breloom stay and Bullet Seed then Gliscor is gone).

Is Scizor unhealthy because people have run Babiri Togekiss and Sylveon with fire coverage to catch it?

Is Latias unhealthy because of how much more common it made Pursuit?

Mane's making it a neccessity to run a Ground type?

What about Suicune placing massive constraints on teambuilding simply due to existing and forcing every team to run either a Grass that beats, Trick, Haze, or Roar?

The top threats are threats for reason. They're going to warp the metagame as people try to innovate to stop them. Breloom has shown it is a top threat, and as such people are trying to stop it. Hogg summed up my thoughts pretty well about having no true defensive counterplay isn't a reason to ban something. Azumarill was able to pressure the metagame to an insane degree with one set. This is something Breloom is not nearly as capable of. Fliers can deal with non Rock Tomb, Ghosts come in on Poison Heal easily, and any Mach resist revenges it. Breloom itself can't switch in on anything barring the most passive bulky waters and walls. I don't think the argument of people trying to stop it more easily makes sense here (or to compare it to azumarill.)

 

[Cheryl.]

Can we get a public test sometime in the next year so we can actually ban Breloom and make this tier playable again? Like I get it it’s frail but this tier has been fucking garbage forever now and sticking to council voting is not helping the situation

 

[Hogg]

Can we get a public test sometime in the next year so we can actually ban Breloom and make this tier playable again? Like I get it it’s frail but this tier has been fucking garbage forever now and sticking to council voting is not helping the situation

We exclusively do public votes unless there’s a major change to the tier that requires immediate action (as was the case with Amoonguss rising). Let’s keep the histrionics to a minimum, please.

 

[Freeroamer]

0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 116-137 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO

Did I miss some kind of new Gliscor wave or something? Not going to bother calcing Ice Fang because it should be evident that 140 BP > 130 BP. I’m not at home now but when I am I will read and respond to posts properly and meaningfully but I got fucked by those calcs yesterday on ladder haha

 

[Hogg]

74.2% chance if rocks are down with 0 Attack. Also the most common spread in March’s usage ran 76 Attack, which is guaranteed with rocks and 89% chance without.

Moveset and spread usage from March is here: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-03/moveset/gen7uu-1630.txt

Edit: My point isn’t that Gliscor is some great Breloom check, by the way. My point is that Breloom cannot safely come in on a huge chunk of the metagame. Gliscor is what I’ve seen people claim is the easiest switch for Breloom but in practice you risk getting Uturned on or just 2HKO’d outright.

 

[Jade]

In spite of all the pro-ban Breloom posts, I wholeheartedly disagree with it being banned. I will not only be stating my main reasons why but also quoting other pro-ban Breloom posts to bring up some false statements. I'd like to say thank you to my friends Smallsmallrose and Sage of the 6 for helping me write this.

Firstly, let's look at Breloom's defensive stats. 60/80/60. Pretty bad bulk by UU standards. Breloom struggles to switch into a lot of things in the UU tier except bulky waters and passive mons (even then, Breloom can't really switch into the former due to risking a Scald burn unless it's Poison Heal and has already activated its Toxic Orb). If it is Poison Heal, then mons like Chandelure and Gengar invalidate Poison Heal sets. Both can set up Substitutes and precede to wreck havoc, or, in Chandy's case, can function as a sleep absorber.

I feel Breloom's matchup vs opposing offense teams is exaggerated. I've heard statements that Breloom invalidates HO and offense, which is completely false. While it is definitely anti-offense, it doesn't completely shut it down. Offense has things like Moltres, Mega Altaria, Togekiss, Crobat, Heracross, Latias, Chandelure, Celebi. You can argue these are all shut down by sleep (except Celebi). However Sleep Talk Latias and Chandelure as well as Safety Goggles Crobat and Togekiss prevent them from being turned into sleep fodder.

Breloom's matchup against fatter teams/stall is also exaggerated. While it does do well vs these type of teams, saying that it 6-0s them isn't true. Crobat, Moltres, Mega Altaria, and Acrobatics Gliscor (also functions as a sleep absorber) can all check Breloom on stall. Tentacruel can also act as an emergency check, though it can't really switch in. Curse Quagsire can also 1v1 non-Grass move Poison Heal Breloom. Balance has Chandelure, Celebi, Tentacruel, Togekiss, Latias, and Moltres, Doublade, Mega Altaria. Technician Breloom probably does worse vs these kind of teams, since the aforementioned things annoy it a lot (before you say Rock Tomb, SD + Rock Tomb is a lot less common than Spore + Rock Tomb).

It's rather easy to fit multiple Breloom measures on one team. For example, you can fit something like Togekiss + Chandelure on one team, or Moltres + Celebi. You can even use Tentacruel + Moltres if you want a soft check along with a good check. It's not very hard to make a team prepared against Breloom. While sleep can be annoying, it's something you should build around, and there are multiple different ways to do so.

Tl;dr Breloom is healthy for the tier and should not be banned. It's frail, has many answers, and overrall can be dealt with. Thank you for reading this.

 

[Chandell]

"Tl;dr Breloom is healthy for the tier and should not be banned. It's frail, has many answers, and overrall can be dealt with. Thank you for reading this."
This discussion is getting out of control. The most deadly breloom set by far is the LO+3 attacks, which invalidates just about any of the checks you've listed. If they switch in on the wrong move, they are dead. Period. Chandelure, Togekiss, Gengar, Crobat and Moltres are all great examples. Simply clicking rock tomb invalidates them as counters. Poison Heal is a nice set, but Technician LO destroys any counter measure that can't take two hits after rocks. " Togekiss + Chandelure on one team " Both die to rock tomb. Latias,Chandelure, and Celebi can all be pursuit trapped by Muk. Breloom is not healthy at all. Of course stall can find an answer to Breloom one way or another because they have 3 teamslots to do so outside of the AloBlissQuag core, but Breloom is simply deadly versus offense. It won't sweep, but it has nothing that can switchin to all 3 of its moves+spore. I can't even count the number of Crobats and Latias I killed with this set. Overall, Breloom has 2 counters: Celebi and fake Amoonguss. Everything else is a soft check that will die to coverage. Now Hogg's point is a little different, which talks about Breloom's struggles with its bulk. I haven't had any major problems with bringing him into play, but even if Loom does have trouble switching in, once it's in, the nightmare of a pokemon battle listed above begins to take place.

 

[Jade]

"Tl;dr Breloom is healthy for the tier and should not be banned. It's frail, has many answers, and overrall can be dealt with. Thank you for reading this."
This discussion is getting out of control. The most deadly breloom set by far is the LO+3 attacks, which invalidates just about any of the checks you've listed. If they switch in on the wrong move, they are dead. Period. Chandelure, Togekiss, Gengar, Crobat and Moltres are all great examples. Simply clicking rock tomb invalidates them as counters. Poison Heal is a nice set, but Technician LO destroys any counter measure that can't take two hits after rocks. " Togekiss + Chandelure on one team " Both die to rock tomb. Latias,Chandelure, and Celebi can all be pursuit trapped by Muk. Breloom is not healthy at all. Of course stall can find an answer to Breloom one way or another because they have 3 teamslots to do so outside of the AloBlissQuag core, but Breloom is simply deadly versus offense. It won't sweep, but it has nothing that can switchin to all 3 of its moves+spore. I can't even count the number of Crobats and Latias I killed with this set. Overall, Breloom has 2 counters: Celebi and fake Amoonguss. Everything else is a soft check that will die to coverage.

Oh boy.

"This discussion is getting out of control." What does this even mean? All of the Breloom posts besides Sage's and hoggs have been pro-ban. Unless you mean the whole discussion, which honestly it isn't . hogg just cleared up most of the discussion with his post, as well as Sage.

Those mons I listed weren't meant to be counters: they were meant to show that those playstyles don't get 6-0ed like some people think they do. Furthermore, Muk can be U-Turned out on if it's pivot Celebi, or it dies to +2 Tectonic Rage. Alolan Muk dies to +1 Devastating Drake after one CM after some prior chip. Will-O-Wisp Chandelure beats Muk, as well as Specs Fire Blast 2HKOing after rocks. Every Chandelure/Latias isn't Scarf. Sleep Talk Latias and Chandelure can also act as Spore absorbers.

 

[Chandell]

Ok. Of course they don't get 6-0d, but what I quoted was the fact that Breloom was healthy for the tier. I can say M-Slowbro is healthy, as it helps the tier deal with threats and balances it out against Z-moves physically. I can say Latias is healthy as it provides offense an answer to many special threats. But what does Breloom do? It breaks the other team. I don't think a pokemon that has extremely specific counters and can kill most of its checks in one move is healthy. I love to draw comparisons, and Breloom is like that of Primarina with Spore and priority. Primarina has extremely specific counters(Empoleon,Blissey,Volcanion), and checks that die to coverage(Tentacruel,Seismitoad,Grass/Poison types. The difference is that physical Blissey (Buzzwole) left the tier, and Breloom can hit its checks before they move or incapacitate them with spore. So I basically wouldn't call Breloom 100% healthy or anything similar.

 

[Silver1989]

Apparently nothing is broken. I could remember when people were arguing to keep M-Latias in UU(M-Gardevoir as well). With Azumarill's suspect, players will also ridiculously argue to keep it as well. Breloom has to go as well, it destroys all of it's "counter's" between spore,swords dance,priority, and Z-moves. The only real counter to it is doublade, which has no recovery, and spore puts it to sleep. Of course, those two are the first priorities to get rid of. But how can UU keep so many unhealthy other pokemon swept under the rug? Latias, Scizor and Malt. Klefki is questionable as well.

There are a lot of flexible pokemon at the top tiers in VR, but that's what gets them there (you didnt bring up gliscor btw, which is surely on the level of any other mon you mentioned here). They can do a lot of different things, and make your opponent think before they act. That's a good thing for the metagame. If every mon only had one set to run, it would just be a game where stall rules all because it would provide low-risk, easy predictions for every mon a non-stall team could bring, and that would basically be how to win. As it is now, some of the best teams might use 1 s tier mon and some will use 3 (Last i checked, azu was s but its banned now so i only know of 3 mons even in s tier). The fact that a mon doesnt suffer from 4mss doesnt mean its unhealthy. Latias, for example, is a completely fair mon. If youre underprepared, yeah, you might get rocked, but that's just a part of the game. It makes each of us better when it happens.

 

[Chandell]

Latias is a completely fair pokemon. First someone says that Breloom is healthy for the tier. Now somebody says Latias is completely fair. Ok: I want to make something clear for whatever remains of pokemon. Z-Moves are not balanced. They simply aren't. A Slowbro stops Blaziken, right? 95/110/80 defense, and resists both its stabs? Back in gen 5, they released pokemon gems, which added a 50% boost to the damage of a move once. Adamant Blaziken can work its way around Slowbro with a gem. Now, a gem is a 50% boost. Z moves are closes to 100% boosts. Furthermore, gems activate straight away, while Z-moves can be withheld. Now with that in mind, Thunderium Z Blaziken destroys Slowbro without thinking twice.Nintendo and Game Freak put Z-moves in the game as a gimmick previous games never had. They didn't consider how hard it was to take down a Z-Celebrate Jirachi and how powerful it was. Or Z-Hypnosis on Xurkitree. They slapped it in the game and turned away. This metagame you see in front of you is the result. It wasn't planned or balanced at all. Now, with that out of the way, lets get back to "fair" Latias. You can prepare for Latias all day, but the versatility of its sets with Z is unparalelled. Empoleon? I prepared, and stuck some Close Combat bait on my team. Too bad. Z thunder. Aggron-M? I used up my mega slot? Dies to the same thing. Well, I can just use the much worse Mega Steelix. It dies to Z-Surf. Same thing can be said for Klefki,Scizor, Metagross, or many obscure checks that are supposed to be counters. Blissey? Switched into specs Psyshock and get 2hkoed, or I get tricked. Dragonium-Z blows trough Muk-A. Ice Beam hits Gliscor. Thunderbolt hits Mantine. Hp fire catches klefki and Scizor. You can even use Grass Knot. You try to kill Latias, but it just uses Healing Wish and revives that paralyzed Crawdaunt at 3%. Latias is not fair and balanced. Its the result unforeseen by Nintendo when you dump a gimmick into Pokemon and don't try to monitor or nerf it. Kind of like Megas, except much worse. So Latias isn't fair. And for Gliscor, I don't have to worry about it sweeping my team as it can be cut short by a water or ice type move, and Mega Slowbro actually stops it.

 

[slated]

Latias is a completely fair pokemon. First someone says that Breloom is healthy for the tier. Now somebody says Latias is completely fair. Ok: I want to make something clear for whatever remains of pokemon. Z-Moves are not balanced. They simply aren't. A Slowbro stops Blaziken, right? 95/110/80 defense, and resists both its stabs? Back in gen 5, they released pokemon gems, which added a 50% boost to the damage of a move once. Adamant Blaziken can work its way around Slowbro with a gem. Now, a gem is a 50% boost. Z moves are closes to 100% boosts. Furthermore, gems activate straight away, while Z-moves can be withheld. Now with that in mind, Thunderium Z Blaziken destroys Slowbro without thinking twice.Nintendo and Game Freak put Z-moves in the game as a gimmick previous games never had. They didn't consider how hard it was to take down a Z-Celebrate Jirachi and how powerful it was. Or Z-Hypnosis on Xurkitree. They slapped it in the game and turned away. This metagame you see in front of you is the result. It wasn't planned or balanced at all. Now, with that out of the way, lets get back to "fair" Latias. You can prepare for Latias all day, but the versatility of its sets with Z is unparalelled. Empoleon? I prepared, and stuck some Close Combat bait on my team. Too bad. Z thunder. Aggron-M? I used up my mega slot? Dies to the same thing. Well, I can just use the much worse Mega Steelix. It dies to Z-Surf. Same thing can be said for Klefki,Scizor, Metagross, or many obscure checks that are supposed to be counters. Blissey? Switched into specs Psyshock and get 2hkoed, or I get tricked. Dragonium-Z blows trough Muk-A. Ice Beam hits Gliscor. Thunderbolt hits Mantine. Hp fire catches klefki and Scizor. You can even use Grass Knot. You try to kill Latias, but it just uses Healing Wish and revives that paralyzed Crawdaunt at 3%. Latias is not fair and balanced. Its the result unforeseen by Nintendo when you dump a gimmick into Pokemon and don't try to monitor or nerf it. Kind of like Megas, except much worse. So Latias isn't fair. And for Gliscor, I don't have to worry about it sweeping my team as it can be cut short by a water or ice type move, and Mega Slowbro actually stops it.

I'm not really sure why you're quoting lure sets as unfair. Z-thunder lati is designed specifically to lure empoleon so losing your empoleon for it isn't unfair it's how the set is designed. If you want to call z-moves unfair, that's fine. Better than whining about it is preparing more than one check for a mon as common as latias. There are plenty of lati checks in the tier, you can't make the argument that latias can run 15 different moves to beat all of its checks. Nidoking can run superpower to beat blissey, ice beam to hit everything that switches into earth power, thunderbolt to hit suicune, etc. Does this make it broken? No, because it can't run every single coverage move in one set and also outspeed the entire tier and avoid getting revenge killed. Latias isn't broken and I'd advise you to actually prepare for it before you derail discussion in a smogon thread.

 

[Amane Misa]

Breloom is not broken, in my opinion. Yes, it is among the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame right now, but it is not broken. While it may be tricky to switch into it, offense has ways of dealing with it. Latias, Mega Altaria, Chandelure, Togekiss, Tentacruel, Crobat, Heracross, Nidoking, and et cetera; the majority of those are pretty common choices on offense. Sure, Rock Tomb makes it so the majority of them can't switch into it, but why would you mindlessly send your Breloom check out against a Breloom? Furthermore, a good offense will have at least two faster Fighting-resists. This way, as long as you don't mindlessly throw those checks out, you are going to be fine against Breloom.

Stall, too, has its ways of beating Breloom. I just qualified for ULT playoffs using Stall. I am not saying Breloom is not a threat to Stall, but I've used two different Stall teams, each with different ways of dealing with Breloom. One stall team utilized fast Acrobatics Gliscor to check Breloom and made it so Breloom can't set up on anything for free; Quagsire carried Ice Beam and Alolan Muk carried Poison Jab. As for the second team, a simple core of Mega Altaria + Moltres was more than enough to deal with Breloom. It also had a Counter Registeel in the back for Rock Tomb Breloom, which both Mega Altaria and Moltres hate.

If we take the statement of "little to no defensive counterplay = broken" further, we could also argue that Primarina and Volcanion are broken. This statement is wrong.

I have been using the cute thing for a while to celebrating its new move: Celebrate. It is a pretty nice Pokemon you should all give a try. It requires a lot of team support, though. Alolan Muk pretty much invalidates the set due to +1 Earth Power doing just around 40%. Furthermore, Grass is such a poor offensive typing right now, and Shaymin has a 4MSS, as it wants to run both Dazzling Gleam and Earth Power. If you lack Earth Power, you're pretty much walled by Poison-types, such as Alolan Muk and Gengar, and if you lack Dazzling Gleam, you're pretty much walled by Dragon-types, such as Latias and Hydreigon.

Personally, I've been mostly using it on an Aurora Veil team, together with two other Special attackers that share a common weakness in Muk, and weaken it for each other. Aurora Veil support is pretty nice for this Pokemon because a 100/100/100 bulk is pretty good as it is, but after an omni-boost and Aurora Veil defense boost, it is pretty hard to revenge kill.

 

[lhce628]

In spite of all the pro-ban Breloom posts, I wholeheartedly disagree with it being banned. I will not only be stating my main reasons why but also quoting other pro-ban Breloom posts to bring up some false statements. I'd like to say thank you to my friends Smallsmallrose and Sage of the 6 for helping me write this.

Firstly, let's look at Breloom's defensive stats. 60/80/60. Pretty bad bulk by UU standards. Breloom struggles to switch into a lot of things in the UU tier except bulky waters and passive mons (even then, Breloom can't really switch into the former due to risking a Scald burn unless it's Poison Heal and has already activated its Toxic Orb). If it is Poison Heal, then mons like Chandelure and Gengar invalidate Poison Heal sets. Both can set up Substitutes and precede to wreck havoc, or, in Chandy's case, can function as a sleep absorber.

I feel Breloom's matchup vs opposing offense teams is exaggerated. I've heard statements that Breloom invalidates HO and offense, which is completely false. While it is definitely anti-offense, it doesn't completely shut it down. Offense has things like Moltres, Mega Altaria, Togekiss, Crobat, Heracross, Latias, Chandelure, Celebi. You can argue these are all shut down by sleep (except Celebi). However Sleep Talk Latias and Chandelure as well as Safety Goggles Crobat and Togekiss prevent them from being turned into sleep fodder.

Breloom's matchup against fatter teams/stall is also exaggerated. While it does do well vs these type of teams, saying that it 6-0s them isn't true. Crobat, Moltres, Mega Altaria, and Acrobatics Gliscor (also functions as a sleep absorber) can all check Breloom on stall. Tentacruel can also act as an emergency check, though it can't really switch in. Curse Quagsire can also 1v1 non-Grass move Poison Heal Breloom. Balance has Chandelure, Celebi, Tentacruel, Togekiss, Latias, and Moltres, Doublade, Mega Altaria. Technician Breloom probably does worse vs these kind of teams, since the aforementioned things annoy it a lot (before you say Rock Tomb, SD + Rock Tomb is a lot less common than Spore + Rock Tomb).

It's rather easy to fit multiple Breloom measures on one team. For example, you can fit something like Togekiss + Chandelure on one team, or Moltres + Celebi. You can even use Tentacruel + Moltres if you want a soft check along with a good check. It's not very hard to make a team prepared against Breloom. While sleep can be annoying, it's something you should build around, and there are multiple different ways to do so.

Tl;dr Breloom is healthy for the tier and should not be banned. It's frail, has many answers, and overrall can be dealt with. Thank you for reading this.

i disagree this so much

lets see the calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 307-361 (117.6 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 264-312 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 154-182 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(i know defensive checks it quite well, but before it megas it dies with rock tomb + any attack, and i guess poison heal set is not as common)

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 355-430 (100.8 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Tentacruel: 396-472 (109 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
(this is one of its best checks)

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Togekiss: 229-270 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 153-181 (50.6 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(sleep talk scarf lati best check, and guess what, you need to use SLEEP TALK)

the checks you mentioned above are not SWITCH INS, but rather checks. yes i get it, breloom is fraile and easy to revenge kill, but its defensive conterplays are so little that makes this mon broken.

It's rather easy to fit multiple Breloom measures on one team. For example, you can fit something like Togekiss + Chandelure on one team, or Moltres + Celebi. You can even use Tentacruel + Moltres if you want a soft check along with a good check. It's not very hard to make a team prepared against Breloom. While sleep can be annoying, it's something you should build around, and there are multiple different ways to do so.

Tl;dr Breloom is healthy for the tier and should not be banned. It's frail, has many answers, and overrall can be dealt with. Thank you for reading this.

togekiss + chandy gets rekt by rock tomb, how is this even a good check?

most common breloom checks can be beaten up by rock tomb, and rare occation of those not weak to it are heavy damaged by its poison heal set

and of couase not to mention the sash set, which gives a lot of moumentem to teams

Breloom is not broken, in my opinion. Yes, it is among the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame right now, but it is not broken. While it may be tricky to switch into it, offense has ways of dealing with it. Latias, Mega Altaria, Chandelure, Togekiss, Tentacruel, Crobat, Heracross, Nidoking, and et cetera; the majority of those are pretty common choices on offense. Sure, Rock Tomb makes it so the majority of them can't switch into it, but why would you mindlessly send your Breloom check out against a Breloom? Furthermore, a good offense will have at least two faster Fighting-resists. This way, as long as you don't mindlessly throw those checks out, you are going to be fine against Breloom.

*think about fight resists*
*breloom is not broken because of fight moves*

*why would you mindlessly send your Breloom check out against a Breloom*
* i dont, but i have no switch ins*

and by that breloom also limits teambuilding a lot because of it has so limited switch ins

when you need to sack a mon to switch into it, this mon is not healthy





someone reply and tell me how wrong i am

having a uu tour rn now come join..
https://discord.gg/WAgatQU

 

[Amane Misa]

*think about fight resists*
*breloom is not broken because of fight moves*

*why would you mindlessly send your Breloom check out against a Breloom*
* i dont, but i have no switch ins*

and by that breloom also limits teambuilding a lot because of it has so limited switch ins

when you need to sack a mon to switch into it, this mon is not healthy

someone reply and tell me how wrong i am

having a uu tour rn now come join..
https://discord.gg/WAgatQU

Don't expect to win if you're playing passively against a threat - if your opponent has a Breloom and you have a Swampert in, you should be wary of it and play accordingly - by doubling, for example.

Breloom restricts teambuilding? So let's ban Primarina! It's switch-ins are limited to Empoleon and Blissey!

Why aren't we banning Kyurem? It has high Special Attack and its Choice Specs set has near-perfect coverage, leaving Primarina and Blissey the only safe switch-ins in the tier; with Blissey getting beaten down by the SubRoost set.

Hell, following that logic, even Medicham is broken because nothing really switches into it barring Doublade and Mega Slowbro.

 

[Jade]

i disagree this so much

lets see the calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 307-361 (117.6 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 264-312 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 154-182 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(i know defensive checks it quite well, but before it megas it dies with rock tomb + any attack, and i guess poison heal set is not as common)

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 355-430 (100.8 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Tentacruel: 396-472 (109 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
(this is one of its best checks)

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Togekiss: 229-270 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 153-181 (50.6 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(sleep talk scarf lati best check, and guess what, you need to use SLEEP TALK)

the checks you mentioned above are not SWITCH INS, but rather checks. yes i get it, breloom is fraile and easy to revenge kill, but its defensive conterplays are so little that makes this mon broken.



togekiss + chandy gets rekt by rock tomb, how is this even a good check?

most common breloom checks can be beaten up by rock tomb, and rare occation of those not weak to it are heavy damaged by its poison heal set

and of couase not to mention the sash set, which gives a lot of moumentem to teams

Let´s ban Primarina for having no switch ins besides Empoleon (which gets chipped), and Blissey! Let´s ban Kyurem for having no switch ins besides Primarina and Blissey (the latter gets beat by SubRoost)!

Are you trying to argue Celebi is not a Breloom switch in? If so, thats completely wrong. Not only this, we also have Doublade.

Whats wrong with using Sleep Talk just for Breloom? The metagame is finding its ways around a top tier threat. Should we ban Mega Manectric because it forces a Ground on every team? Should we ban Suicune for its intense pressure on teambuilding (having to run a Grass type, a Taunt user, a phaser, or a Trick user)?

Togekiss and Chandelure arent good checks because they get destroyed by Rock Tomb.

I dont even think I have to point out whats wrong with this argument. If you're recklessly switching your Breloom check into Breloom, thats on you. Instead, try to double into your Breloom check: ex double into Chandelure when you have a Suicune out. Is Sylveon not a good Hydreigon check because Specs Flash Cannon destroys it?

If you switch in your Altaria pre-mega on Breloom, then something is wrong. Altaria should always aim to mega evolve as fast as possible (for example against a SASH LOOM lead) so that it can check Breloom more effectively. Once again, recklessly switching into your check.

The Sash set gives a lot of momentum to teams? Should we ban Scizor and Gliscor because they give a lot of momentum to teams?

 

[lhce628]

the sash set is not broken.
I am arguing the LO 3 atk set

look at where doublade is
every check bar celebi is going to be cornered rock tomb or spore
and u r telling me 2 switch ins is enough for a mon ?
chandey is different. breloom has so little oppoturniy cost that it is so hard to deal with hydregon has a lot of switch ins and it can't use every move at once.

when u run a tech just for one single threat in SACRIFICING A USEFUL MOVE that is not healthy in the case of sleep talk lati, and this is not gen 5

breloom is broken because it has shaped the format around it to force ppl run specific checks over it for no other use other than a single mon

I rly think that breloom is broken and should be dealt with

 

[Jade]

the sash set is not broken.
I am arguing the LO 3 atk set

look at where doublade is
every check bar celebi is going to be cornered rock tomb or spore
and u r telling me 2 switch ins is enough for a mon ?
chandey is different. breloom has so little oppoturniy cost that it is so hard to deal with hydregon has a lot of switch ins and it can't use every move at once.

when u run a tech just for one single threat in SACRIFICING A USEFUL MOVE that is not healthy in the case of sleep talk lati, and this is not gen 5

breloom is broken because it has shaped the format around it to force ppl run specific checks over it for no other use other than a single mon

I rly think that breloom is broken and should be dealt with

If the Sash set isnt broken, why did you even mention it?

There are more than 2 switch ins. The mons I mentioned can be a SSI switch in on a double or if you scout for Rock Tomb.

Manectric and many other mons run HP Ice for Gliscor, which could otherwise be sacrificed for HP Grass. A lot of mons run useless Fire coverage for Scizor or dedicated lures like Natural Gift on your own Scizor or Hidden Power Fire Babiri Berry Togekiss. Does this mean either of these mons are broken or unhealthy?

Mega Manectric forces people to run specific checks (a Ground type). Serperior forces people to run specific checks (at least 2 Grass resists that can beat it). Are they broken?

 

[Freeroamer]

If the Sash set isnt broken, why did you even mention it?

There are more than 2 switch ins. The mons I mentioned can be a SSI switch in on a double or if you scout for Rock Tomb.

Manectric and many other mons run HP Ice for Gliscor, which could otherwise be sacrificed for HP Grass. A lot of mons run useless Fire coverage for Scizor or dedicated lures like Natural Gift on your own Scizor or Hidden Power Fire Babiri Berry Togekiss. Does this mean either of these mons are broken or unhealthy?

Mega Manectric forces people to run specific checks (a Ground type). Serperior forces people to run specific checks (at least 2 Grass resists that can beat it). Are they broken?

I don’t really like these examples because they have use outside of the one you’re referencing here. Without HP Ice Manectric loses the ability to pressure Dragons and while saying you can just volt on them is partly true, in practice it’s actually a lot more annoying than it would seem. Out of everything else in A and S in the VR, only Latias, Aero and Altaria I guess somewhat commonly run Ice coverage and while Gliscor is a big pull of that, theres other reasons they run it too. While the Babiri is undoubtedly a Scizor driven tech, its hardly common and Flamethrower would have viable uses in helping Toge break through Steels without praying for a load of flinches. Nat Gift Scizor is definitely specialised for opposing Scizor but it still retains some utility in dishing out a strong hit to stuff like Doublade and Aggron when boosted, meaning it at least retains some utility in other matchups. Sleep Talk is a strictly Breloom only adaptation, restricted to only being useful in matchups against a Breloom and useless otherwise. It’s also restricted to a select group of Pokemon that can adequately pressure Breloom, can switch in comfortably in standard situations, and have the moveslot to spare.

 

[Chandell]

I'll simply start from the top: Latias. Latias clicks CM, you switch in Empoleon. If it's Thunderium Z, you lost an Empoleon. If not, you'll be ok. Simple as that, but before you respond, and say Latias isn't broken because it isn't broken, I want you to consider the following. You probably think you can get around the z-moves with your skills, by switching in to predict. What if Latias clicks CM again when you switch into your Muk-A. What if it's actually Dragoinum Z, and you lose a Muk-A for no fault of your own, you simply couldn't prepare for it, you didn't know. Z-Moves are a gimmick, not a balanced and fair pokemon strategy. I suggested banning Latias because it simply could exploit Z moves unlike any other pokemon, thanks to its bulk, movepool and speed. If you don't want to ban Latias, you could ban Z-moves instead! Woah. What did you say? Ban our beloved Z-moves? I'm sure there are quite a few players who are sick of their Latias dying to Icium Z from Swampert, their Swampert dying to Bloom Doom from Meme Arcanines, and so on. Swampert should have been a perfectly safe switchin for a Latias. It had been through Gen 1-6 anyway. Same thing with the other examples. Nowadays, we have Terrakion blasting through Slowbro and Gliscor, Latias KOing Empoleon, and Swamperts killing Latias. To sum it up:
1. Ban Z moves, they cause walls to become fodder for a sweep, and add way too much unpredictability into the mix. Pokemon is all about predicting, but how can you predict when there are too many variables
2. Ban Latias, it exploits Z moves in a way no other does. Although it has many checks, it has no counters."Access to Calm Mind and the ability to viably use Z-Moves let it get past nearly any potential check or counter in the game"-Latias Analysis from Smogon.
3. Don't do anything and quickly click X when Swampert kills your Latias from full HP(Current Approach)
Breloom.
lhce628 already did the calcs, it kills checks all day. For that Suicune/Swampert example about doubling, here comes reality: The Krookodile or Terrakion decides not to switch out and clicks Earthquake instead. Chandelure dies. Or Moltres/Togekiss to Stone Edge. Or it could maybe go ok, but you could also easily lose your Breloom check since your check has to be in against the Breloom, it can't even switch in. Then Breloom rips your team apart, and Scarf Luvdisc cleans. Kidding, but thats what Breloom does to your team. You can't have 2 checks and be safe. Scarf Lati with sleep talk? Gets hit by rock Tomb, Breloom returns a couple turns later to kill it. Or it uses spore, and as you desperately click Sleep Talk, Muk-A comes in. You could have 5 Breloom checks on your team and one water type, and Loom would probably still kill half your checks. Manectric Gliscor example was ridiculous, M-Mane and any electric type uses hp ice to maintain good coverage against the tier. Serperior... I'll provide you an example. "Serperior forces people to run specific checks (at least 2 Grass resists that can beat it). Are they broken?" 2 Grass Resists that can beat it. That's 2 pokemon taken off your team just for 1 pokemon. 1. No others really influenced you for slapping these guys on your team. Then you need to prepare for Latias as well. That's another poke, Empoleon the Z-Thunder bait or Muk-A DragoniumZ sac or Blissey the free set up mon. This continues as you attempt to build against these top threats and oops, you run out of space on the team. Can Latias be stopped? With 3 different pokemon all sets can be countered. Can you build against Loom, M-Mane, Scizor, Maero and Serp at the same time? Hmm....
Summary: 1.Loom's checks sound good on paper, but die in the battle.
2. The variety of top tier threats in the meta is extremely constraining on teambuilding. You need 2 Latias checks, 2 Serperior checks, 2 Breloom Checks, A Scizor Check,2 Latias Checks, checks for some of the shady dangerous pokes such as Kommo,Togekiss,M-Shark, and Primarina, Stealth Rock and Hazard Removal and you need to do this in 6 teamslots.

 

[Bebo]

I'll simply start from the top: Latias. Latias clicks CM, you switch in Empoleon. If it's Thunderium Z, you lost an Empoleon. If not, you'll be ok. Simple as that, but before you respond, and say Latias isn't broken because it isn't broken, I want you to consider the following. You probably think you can get around the z-moves with your skills, by switching in to predict. What if Latias clicks CM again when you switch into your Muk-A. What if it's actually Dragoinum Z, and you lose a Muk-A for no fault of your own, you simply couldn't prepare for it, you didn't know. Z-Moves are a gimmick, not a balanced and fair pokemon strategy. I suggested banning Latias because it simply could exploit Z moves unlike any other pokemon, thanks to its bulk, movepool and speed. If you don't want to ban Latias, you could ban Z-moves instead! Woah. What did you say? Ban our beloved Z-moves? I'm sure there are quite a few players who are sick of their Latias dying to Icium Z from Swampert, their Swampert dying to Bloom Doom from Meme Arcanines, and so on. Swampert should have been a perfectly safe switchin for a Latias. It had been through Gen 1-6 anyway. Same thing with the other examples. Nowadays, we have Terrakion blasting through Slowbro and Gliscor, Latias KOing Empoleon, and Swamperts killing Latias. To sum it up:
1. Ban Z moves, they cause walls to become fodder for a sweep, and add way too much unpredictability into the mix. Pokemon is all about predicting, but how can you predict when there are too many variables
2. Ban Latias, it exploits Z moves in a way no other does. Although it has many checks, it has no counters."Access to Calm Mind and the ability to viably use Z-Moves let it get past nearly any potential check or counter in the game"-Latias Analysis from Smogon.
3. Don't do anything and quickly click X when Swampert kills your Latias from full HP(Current Approach)
Breloom.
lhce628 already did the calcs, it kills checks all day. For that Suicune/Swampert example about doubling, here comes reality: The Krookodile or Terrakion decides not to switch out and clicks Earthquake instead. Chandelure dies. Or Moltres/Togekiss to Stone Edge. Or it could maybe go ok, but you could also easily lose your Breloom check since your check has to be in against the Breloom, it can't even switch in. Then Breloom rips your team apart, and Scarf Luvdisc cleans. Kidding, but thats what Breloom does to your team. You can't have 2 checks and be safe. Scarf Lati with sleep talk? Gets hit by rock Tomb, Breloom returns a couple turns later to kill it. Or it uses spore, and as you desperately click Sleep Talk, Muk-A comes in. You could have 5 Breloom checks on your team and one water type, and Loom would probably still kill half your checks. Manectric Gliscor example was ridiculous, M-Mane and any electric type uses hp ice to maintain good coverage against the tier. Serperior... I'll provide you an example. "Serperior forces people to run specific checks (at least 2 Grass resists that can beat it). Are they broken?" 2 Grass Resists that can beat it. That's 2 pokemon taken off your team just for 1 pokemon. 1. No others really influenced you for slapping these guys on your team. Then you need to prepare for Latias as well. That's another poke, Empoleon the Z-Thunder bait or Muk-A DragoniumZ sac or Blissey the free set up mon. This continues as you attempt to build against these top threats and oops, you run out of space on the team. Can Latias be stopped? With 3 different pokemon all sets can be countered. Can you build against Loom, M-Mane, Scizor, Maero and Serp at the same time? Hmm....
Summary: 1.Loom's checks sound good on paper, but die in the battle.
2. The variety of top tier threats in the meta is extremely constraining on teambuilding. You need 2 Latias checks, 2 Serperior checks, 2 Breloom Checks, A Scizor Check,2 Latias Checks, checks for some of the shady dangerous pokes such as Kommo,Togekiss,M-Shark, and Primarina, Stealth Rock and Hazard Removal and you need to do this in 6 teamslots.

If you think Latias is broken I think you should take a break from uu :] also rotom-h can beat all those names you mentioned (scarf for aero)

 

[Chandell]

That's all you have to say. If you say one sentence you may as well not speak at all. Rotom H can't beat Latias, M-Shark,Prima. Breloom knocks him out with rock tomb, and it is weak to rocks. Serperior can sub seed its way through overheat. Scizor can knock off the Scarf or hit Ko with CB superpower after rocks. So no, Rotom H does not work. And I think Latias shoud take a break from UU permanently.

 

[sanguine]

There are more than 2 switch ins. The mons I mentioned can be a SSI switch in on a double or if you scout for Rock Tomb.

He meant 2 GSIs.

Manectric and many other mons run HP Ice for Gliscor, which could otherwise be sacrificed for HP Grass. A lot of mons run useless Fire coverage for Scizor or dedicated lures like Natural Gift on your own Scizor or Hidden Power Fire Babiri Berry Togekiss. Does this mean either of these mons are broken or unhealthy?

Like Freeroamer said, HP Ice isn’t specifically just for Gliscor, it’s for other electric resists as well. Natural Gift Scizor isn’t a set, and really I don’t know who’s running that, and Babiri Berry Flamethrower Togekiss also hits other steels as well. It isn’t specific for Scizor, like Sleep Talk on random shit to specifically switch-in to Breloom and not be useless.

Mega Manectric forces people to run specific checks (a Ground type). Serperior forces people to run specific checks (at least 2 Grass resists that can beat it). Are they broken?

This comparison is like comparing an apple to a fire truck. Teams would still have Ground-types regardless of Mega Manectric being here. They’re splashable, perform a variety of roles, and are good offensively. Likewise, without Serperior, people would still naturally have two of Bug / Dragon / Fire / Flying / Grass / Poison / Steel mons because none of these are inherently unviable without Serperior. Vileplume, Sleep Talk Chandelure/Latias etc, Safety Goggles Crobat. These are things that the meta is running that are only viable BECAUSE of Breloom, and they wouldn’t be run otherwise. That’s the difference between Breloom and Serperior/Mega Manectric, and for this reason, your analogy fails on all fronts.


Now, believe it or not, I am on the fence about Breloom. I recognize that between the three sets: Sash Attacker, Technician SD, Poison Heal SD, there is little to cover all of them, and they all have wildly different ways of being played around. However, I do recognize Breloom’s fragility, and that there is a sizable amount of counterplay. I do look forward to the good discourse on this thread to come, but considering the community’s division over it, a public suspect test would probably be in order, and I hope it happens soon, so we can resolve this situation.

 

[Bebo]

That's all you have to say. If you say one sentence you may as well not speak at all. Rotom H can't beat Latias, M-Shark,Prima. Breloom knocks him out with rock tomb, and it is weak to rocks. Serperior can sub seed its way through overheat. Scizor can knock off the Scarf or hit Ko with CB superpower after rocks. So no, Rotom H does not work. And I think Latias shoud take a break from UU permanently.

I meant the m-aero, m-manectric, breloom, scizor serp

 

[Hilomilo]

I can say Latias is healthy as it provides offense man answer to many special threats

Ban Latias, it exploits Z moves in a way no other does. Although it has many checks, it has no counters

Here you are arguing that Latias is a healthy and fair Pokemon, only to exclaim that it’s unhealthy and an overbearing and broken presence in your subsequent posts. Reading these posts is tiring as is, but please actually formulate a steady opinion that doesn’t change in between your posts, it just makes everything you say less and less credible and negatively contributes to the quality of the thread. I don’t know if you can tell since you continue to stay so hostile, but you’ve been nothing but a negative presence in this thread and are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, ESPECIALLY if your opinions drastically differ from one another in posts with only a few hours between them.

Also, making a case for Z-Moves being broken is ridiculous if it’s on the basis of Z-Ice Beam Swampert being overbearing, as that’s a nearly unviable lure since it strips Swampert of its only recovery in the form of leftovers and there are so many more consistently useful feats you can accomplish with a different Z-Move user on your team. There’s a plethora of reasons in regards to why Z-Moves aren’t an unhealthy element of the metagame, though it really isn’t worth arguing this since you’ve consistently proven to do nothing but aggressively refute other people’s perfectly valid counterpoints and bring up totally irrelevant arguments. Please stop being so hostile because it’s severely decreasing people’s enjoyment of this thread and isn’t getting anyone anywhere. All you’ve done is make yourself look worse as you bounce between opinions and ignore people’s counterarguments to instead unnecessarily attack them. Hope you have a good rest of your day, sir, and please, find a way to be less rude and blunt in your posts and keep an opinion for longer than a couple posts.