np: USUM UU Stage 9.1 - Dancing In the Dark

[Cookees]

Id like to bring up something that has been bothering me for a long time. This is going to be a long post as I am pretty adamant about this, and I dont see myself continuing playing this tier competitively anymore as long as this «problem» still exists in the tier. The problem I am refering to is none other than the face of stall, the big fat pink blob ofc. In this post Im going to do my best to make the case that Blissey is extremely unhealthy for the tier.

First off, making the case that Blissey is broken is certainly harder than doing so for other threats that we have banned before. Typically defensive mons arent banned as its seldom as obvious they are problematic. Arguing that offensive powerhouses are too good is usually pretty easy. Usually it goes along the lines of «it has no counters» and «hard to revenge kill». When you try to make the case that a defensive pokemon is too good obviously you have to attack it from a different angle. What constitutes a broken «defensive» pokemon? Its hard to answer really. If it walls 90% of the tier its obviously broken. But you would have to have Ferrothorn down in PU for that to be a realistic scenario. To make the argument that Blissey is too good you have to look at what it does for the stall archetype, because that is where it shines. Before I get to that Id like to adress the negative aspects of using Blissey, and why I ultimately dont think they matter in the slightest under the right cirumstances.

Blissey is as everyone knows slow, weak and a complete momentum suck. If youre building a team and just slap Blissey on there its probably going to be terrible. While it provides a guaranteed switch in to nearly every special attacker in the tier, it also invites in very powerful physical attackers, hazard setters etc without any way to apply any sort of meaningful pressure to the opponents team. This admittedly sounds terrible. It is by no means splashable. Which is why its not super high up on the viablity rankings. Which makes sense. However, when you are using stall, none of these things matter much. On stall all of your mons are momentum sucks. Stall doesnt rely on momentum at all. The playstyle is all about staying around until the opponents team is worn down enough until defeat is inevitable. What Blissey brings to these kinds of teams is extremely valuable. Whereas on other teams you have to account for type effectiveness when trying to check different type of threats, Blissey with its enourmous special bulk and neutrality to every type except fighting (a type in which special attackers are severely lacking anyway) covers too much of the metagame to the point that any stall team not using Blissey will always be worse than stall teams that do.
This is by no means controversial as you generally never see stall teams without Blissey. Now, is this a problem in itself? Surely just because something is used on 100% of one type of team doesnt automaticly make it broken. Sharpedo is also the face of HO, and that isnt broken. Yes, thats true. But you can make very good HO voltturn teams with lets say Manectric>Sharpedo aswell. Sharpedo doesnt outsclass manectric in any way. If you opt for something like sp def sylveon or umberon instead of blissey you are objectively worse off in 99% of MUs.

Ok so Blissey is too valuable to pass up when using stall. But what specifically makes it too good? In order for me to make a case for this I have to talk about the typical teammates used together with Blissey aswell. This might be frowned upon, but as I said earlier, in order to argue that a defensive mon is broken you have to look at it from a very different angle than when looking at offensive threats. The cookie cutter stall team has Blissey/alomomola/quagsire and then 3 other pokemon to counter the rest of the metagame. These work so Incredibly well together its not even funny. Blissey takes care of all sp attackers bar dedicated stallbreakers, alomomola takes on all non setup physical attackers except from a those with favorable typing’s (grass/electric) like Zeraora or Tsareena, and Quagsire takes care of the physical attackers that try to setup with swords dance. Just with these three you have covered a huge amount of the metagame and it is left to the rest of the three other members to cover the aforementioned stallbreakers, hazard setters, grass types etc. Obviuously im not saying you have to use quag and alo. You have other options like pyukumuku and slowbro, but the result is the same. One insanely bulky water and one unaware user. Blissey ofc is always there tho. In order to break the problem down and make the it more concrete im going to present a to you the following stall team:

Blissey/Quagsire/Alomomola/Mega altaria/Scizor/Nihilego

This team has been Pif aka Pokemonisfuns go to team as he made his recent return to the UU ladder after a long hiatus. Now for my next point lets move down the viablity rankings and list all the offensive pokemon that have any sort of chance of breaking through this team:
LO mix Hydreigon, SD fight z Terrakion, NP Lucario, Mix LO kommo-o, SP Nidoking, sub CM chandelure, Decidueye, Haxorus.

Maybe if you look very hard you can find a couple more. Now if you sigle out the ones that are somewhat splashable and see consistent usage (talking about the mon + the actual set here, not just the mon) the list narrowes down to:
Terrakion, Lucario, Hydreigon, Kommo-o.

If you also consider the fact that you have to support these pokemon really well in the stall MU as you dont want to just throw them nillywilly into toxic and whatnot, you need mons that can consistently switch into blissey and alomomola. As they are the pokemon on stall that typically come in the most and thow out toxics and knock offs here and there.
Believe me when I say this makes building offense a true nightmare. Any cool idea you might come up with that you wanna try. If you want the team to be able to beat good stall players. You can just forget it 90% of the time. This is what has lead most ladder players to stick their heads in the sand often completely neglect the stall MU. Which again leads to stuff like this:

Pif and hjkhjl GXE

View attachment 147661

Now to my last point. If we look at tournaments none of these infamous stall players on the ladder have exemplary track records. Surely if Blissey was broken, someone like pif would just plow though all his opponents and grab every trophy. Well, it’s not that easy. If you are known for using stall, word is obviously going to get around. Your teams have probably been seen a thousand times, because let’s face it, there are only so many different stall teams you can make. Creativity isnt excactly the cornerstone of the playstyle. Sooner or later someone like pif is going to face that one guy who has his coveted «pif antistall» team ready for action. And here we get to the bottom of why I think Blissey is so unhealthy for this tier. When good players using stall builds with blissey achieve 96% gxe on the ladder, and tour players build 80% of their teams not giving a shit about the stall MU, but instead load up their antistall when they are facing someone known for being able to use stall, then that atleast in my eyes makes it very clear that Blissey is unhealthy.
To prove my point, that counterteaming is the most used method of beating stall, Im now going to list some teams posted by highly regarded users from the thread “sample teams” and some teams from UU majors finals in order to show how even top tour players choose to gamble with match up and neglect that their team loses to Blissey in team preview.
Im going to look at how all these teams fare vs PIFs team as it is the only stallteam I know well atm that does well in the current meta.

PIFs antistall: Blissey/Alomomola/Quagsire/Scizor/Nihilego/Altaria-Mega

First im going to look at the teams used in UU majors finals:

(Edion majors finals r1) : Crawdaunt/Klefki/Gligar/Latias/Manectric/Tentacruel

Ok so this is the first one. Not a single pokemon on Edion team is able to break through PIFs stall by a longshot. I guess he thought banded daunt would suffice as antistall measures but that aint doing shit to max def Altaria. Too bad. Klefki spikes are always instantly removed by scizor and so are gligar rocks. Win = impossible

(Edion majors finals r2): Suicune/Moltres/Blastoise/Diancie/Krookodile/Scizor

In this one he really didn’t give a shit. No variant of suicune is stalling out AloBlissQuag etc ever. The rest of the mons just simply cant do anything.

(Harris majors finals r2): Hippowdown/Empoleon/Aerodactyl/Scizor/Latias/Bewear

Harris brought a reuniclus r1. If it was energy ball it could have 6-0ed PIF stall. I suppose he was fearing Edion would bring stall. G2 however he felt like he couldt screw around with niche stallbreakers anymore though and went with a team that, while not completely helpless, almost guaranteed loses vs stall. SD bewear can never break a well played quag and the rest of the team except empoleon are just stall fodder.

Now to the sample teams thread:

(Sample team aim HO): Crawdaunt/Azelf/Manectric/Starmie/Scizor/Mamoswine

Complete food for PIFs GXE. Do I even need to say anything. Every mon is sashed. The breaking power is nonexistent.

(Sample team adaam HO): Bisharp/frosslass/doublade/latias/sharpedo/Kommo-o

If you are under the Impression mixed taunt Kommo-o singlehandedly beats stall you are wrong. This team is also completely helpless vs any good stall team.

(sample team vivalospride BO): Beedrill/Kommo-o/Rotom-H/Doublade/Krookodile/Primarina

Again, even though these builders seem to think slapping taunt kommo-o makes the stall MU winnable it doesn’t. This one admittedly fares better since it has some support in tspikes and a voltturn core, but if this team were to win vs a well played stall it would be close to a miracle.

If im wrong and Blissey/stall isnt too hard to prep for. Why do all these teams do so poorly vs Blissey. Surely these teams wouldnt be used in UU majors finals or posted in sample teams if they were 6-0ed by Sharpedo HO. Why its it then ok to neglect the stall MU?

Here is a fun little replay between pasy_g and shiba (from snake I think?): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-398082
Here Shiba is down 1-5 and wins with Blissey. Again goes to show pasy_g thought his bewear would be his savior vs stall, but he ended up being 6-0ed by Blissey alone on a Balance build.

Now for my last point lets look at PIFs Grand slam matches vs Adaam:
These players know each other very well btw. So adaam is fully aware PIF is a menace with stall

G1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-386466
Here both players brought Blissey. Not gonna comment this

G2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-386478
PIF won G1 and brings the same stall team G2. Adaam is smart though and he has his antistall ready. He knows exactly what he is up against and brings CB Terrakion with rest (lol) and future sight slowbro. Adaam is a good player and the MU is actually in his favor this match, although PIF can certainly win if he plays better. In the end adaam wins.

G3: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-386479
PIF steps out of his comfort zone, brings offense and is almost 6-0ed.

Now that concludes this insanely long post. I hope no one mentioned here gets offended by this. I have not been trying to step on any toes. With this im trying to create a discussion on the matter. I know this is very controversial, which is why ive done my best to argue my case in the best way possible. I think UU is a really, really fun tier, but I cant bring myself to play anymore tours with Blissey in the tier. This probably stems from having both my Grand slam runs being cut short my stall players so there might be some bias involved here. Ill be the first one to admit that. But I still believe my arguments are solid, and Im hoping we can have a constructive debate.

Holy shit...

 

[Moutemoute]

Alright, alright, alright.. Guess I have to play the devil's advocate

I can understand your point of view but I think you're using the wrong arguments. First of all yeah Blissey is the face of Underused's Stall but it's the same case for all tiers. If we look at the OU, Chansey is a stapple in Stall while in NU, Audino-Mega acts as a incredible Bulky Wisher as well. Even in RU, Pokemon likes Umbreon or Florges kinda represent Stall thanks to their good Bulk and access to Wish.

Now we're going to look at the Pokemon which can bother Stall and there is definitively more than you said as you can see :

All this Pokemon can, to a certain extent, put some pressure on Stall. Whether with Entry Hazards, Wallbreaking or Stallbreaking capacities or even just with chip damages induces by Volt-Turn (because every Stall that lacks of Gligar + Quagsire is weak to Manectric-Mega or to a lesser extent to Zeraora).

The main issue with Stall is that some players don't take them into account when they build a Team. However, just like Scizor, Terrakion or Primarina which are offensive threats ; Blissey, Alomomola or Quagsire are defensive threats. You need to look at them when you're making a team because in the opposite case, you will have nothing to deal with them and you will be some food for the GXE of players which bring Stall on the Ladder. Don't blame people for using Stall or using Blissey, blame people that don't take them in consideration when they're trying to build a team.

It's also a huge mistake to compare Ladder's game and Tournament's Game because on Ladder we're making teams which need to deal with "everything" while in tournament, you work on an unique match most of the time and you know who is your opponent which means you're gonna try to make something that can be effective vs this player especially.

Finally, most of Sample Team are able to deal with Stall. While I agree that it can be quite hard for Aim's one, Adaam's sample team can pressure Stall thanks to Froslass and its Hazard Stacking but also with Sharpedo-Mega, Bisharp or Mixed Kommo-o. On this other hand, viv's Bulky Offense has some Volt-Turn paired with Choice Specs Primarina and Mixed Kommo-o which is enough if you play well to pressure most of Pokemon in Stall.

 

[Kink]

I want to get a little exposition out of the way before I address your comments, skvettleif. Tournament battles and ladder battles are incomparable. They live in the same realm but operate differently. Tour games that we pay attention to tend to be of the highest level, and preparing for those kinds of games isn't the same as building a "strong ladder team" designed to take on the entire meta. That's what pif and hjk stall are by definition, optimized sets that follow an optimized game plan. There's a reason they both show lesser success in official tours. There's a reason old-school experienced players or experienced players in other metas fall back on stall when unsure of how the meta operates, because as long as you know what you're doing stall is a safe bet; however, safe is just that - SAFE. meaning 10-15 well-predicted moves on the BO Users part and the game is over. That's the risk of using something as passive as stall, optimizations can be worked around.

Your argumentation does not stem from our tiering metrics either. If the issue with stall is that some players don't take the playstyle into account when building a team on the ladder, sounds like they have bigger issues than stall. And to put the nail in the coffin, by your own admission you say that stall has a poor track record in tournaments because if people know you're bringing stall it's much easier to prepare for. That's the nature of tournament games. It's not just build a one-team-kills-all and you're off to the races like on the ladder, it's dedicated and personalized preparation (at least if you're aiming for long term consistency). The point is, your argument is very flawed, and I feel like you could read this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-policy-framework.3628026/ if you understand this document, you should understand why smogon accepts stall.

If you have any further questions, you can reach out directly. Please do not discuss this anymore in this thread.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I cannot respond to my friend skvettleif, even though I think he raised some excellent points, as they also unfortunately happen to be taboo in our gaming community.

What I will discuss is an important Pokemon concept directly related to the power of stall.

That concept is "domination." Domination is defined when Player A has a counter to all the Pokemon on Player B's team. Domination occurs on a spectrum because counters occur on a spectrum; Pokemon A and B can counter Pokemon C at varying degrees. Domination most frequently occurs when Player A is using a stall or balance team. Mutual domination is another form of domination, where domination is defined and Player B also dominates Player A.

Domination as a concept has two theoretical implications derived from each other. First, the dominating Player A has an advantage in match up because their team, by definition, has counters to all of Player B's Pokemon. Second, and relevant for skvettleif, the dominated player B has an advantage in game play, because the play by Player A becomes obvious. This is the balancing theory which convinces me neither stall nor Blissey is yet broken

To reiterate the theory:

Player A uses stall --> Player A's stall dominates Player B's team --> Player A has a match up advantage --> Player A plays obviously because they have obvious counters and just want to preserve the advantage --> Player B notices this and plays aggressively --> Player B has a compensating game play advantage

Here's an example of my theory in practice:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-709181127

Clearly pokemonisfun (Player A) dominates Lauris (Player B) because they have strong counters for all of Player B's Pokemon. It's not to a huge degree because Nidoking and Azumarill aren't perfectly countered. But to some degree, we can all agree Player A has counters or at least solid checks to all of Player B's Pokemon.

Following the theory, Player A makes very obvious plays for most of the game. Player A doesn't sense the danger this puts him in, on turn 22 for example, when Latias gets a strong attack going culminating in the loss of Scizor, one of the only good CB Play Rough Azumarill switchins. It's still far from over and Player A defends well for the next several turns, recovering health and making Alomomola healthy again, important for Alomomola, and then giving up a lot of health to Toxic Latias. However, this lets Azumarill come in again on turn 38 to do major damage and Nihilego is bravely switched in to absorb a single Play Rough. More tickle is played but Player A never really responds appropriately to the danger Azumarill poses which eventually decides the game.

Player A went from dominating Player B to losing the game. True Player B used some dedicated wallbreakers, particularly Superpower Nidoking, but the concept of wallbreaker didn't by itself win the game for Player B. After all, after losing Life Orb, Nidoking is barely a wallbreaker at all. What really won the game for Player B was the theoretical implication of domination - a game play advantage.

 

[yeezyknows]

hey, i'm gonna cut to the chase here and propose something i think a lot of people have either considered or directly want to happen: suspecting terrakion. i've heard it stated in a few private circles, but it hasn't been publically posited in either of the uu metagame threads, and i think the idea should be put forth.

as it stands, terrakion is arguably the most centralizing pokemon in uu. cases can definitely be made for scizor and latias, but i feel like the meta's settled around them to where they don't warp the metagame nearly as much as terrakion does. the rise in usage and viability of slowbro, palossand, and gligar serve as direct reflections of this.

in my opinion, several factors ultimately make terrakion unhealthy, all of which intertwine with each other to create a mon that forces guessing games while effortlessly breaking walls and claiming kills.

the first and arguably most significant is terrakion's ability to beat its counterplay and the existence of the SD+z-rock+substitute set. substitute+sd+z-rock instantly grants kills, as substitute allows for a free SD and a subsequent kill with z-stone edge, particularly against common counterplay like slowbro, amoonguss, and gligar. this set, in my opinion, pushes terrakion over the top. while CB in its own right is incredibly strong and borderline broken as well, it can be freely pivoted around by the aforementioned common counterplay. z-rock cannot, and it's legitimately guaranteed to claim a kill if it receives a free sub. free subs aren't hard to obtain either, as your first instinct when terrakion switches in is to hard switch into your respective means of counterplay; you have to, since CB terrakion is so threatening.

continuing in the same vein, the second factor revolves around the mind games involved with determining which terrakion set you're playing. one the major factors involved with this involves just how good of a wallbreaker CB terrakion truly is. i won't present a wall of calcs to you, you've likely seen firsthand how destructive the set can be, particularly if your counterplay's received even a small amount of chip. as a result, you're unsure as to whether to switch into a mon that can revenge rak and risk losing it directly or whether to switch into your direct counterplay and risk losing that mon to z-rock.

the third and final factor, and admittedly the weakest one, is centered around how good CB terrakion truly is. only palossand can be considered a hard counter to the mon, with mons such as slowbro and gligar requring only a little bit of chip to be 2hkoed by CB edge. CB cc and edge are so naturally powerful, and their ability to necessitate full health counterplay just adds another layer to terrakion being broken.

it was hard to describe how terrakion was broken without just mindlessly rambling, so i tried to divide the issue into three core points. naturally they overlap, but forgive me if this seemed at all repetitive or confusing. the main issue revolves around both z-rock and cb being inordinately good sets and the fact that you don't know which one you're running into from preview.

 

[Freeroamer]

Palossand is no counter, Earth Power is nowhere near a OHKO meaning a Terrak that has SD’d on the switch is quite free to SD again, at which point a +4 Continental crush is guaranteed to OHKO any Palossand spread meaning you either need to toss your Palossand and attempt to revenge kill (which doesn’t actually stop the Terrak coming in to claim kills later, albeit at a very low health) or toss something else so you can retain your Palossand to combat Terrak through the game (usually the better play I’ve found). Either way even against Palossand if it wants to, Terrak will claim a kill with Z Rock sets.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-397758 go to turn 20.

Not sure exactly how I would feel about or vote in a Terrak suspect, but I can understand where the feeling is coming from towards it and can definitely attest to feeing it’s presence in the teambuilder.

e: realised you were referring to the CB set but yeah Terrak has so many means of putting its counterplay under pressure, be it via Toxic, Sub, Slowbro can be forced to mega via the threat of a boosted rock z move which forces it to lose regen which consequently makes it much easier to chip. What looks like a simple mon actually is rly complex to handle due to these factors.

2nd e: ok not guaranteed but this is mons, if anything that replay shows how little work you have to do to get into that position and the calls other users have posted showed that too.

 

[Schpoonman]

Yeah, an actual damage calc proves that claim(+4 Z-SE OHKOs any Pal) false.

+4 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 295-348 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

TDK was already on the back foot at the point where Palossand was KO'd and nothing was gained from the play. If you have an example of Terrakion blowing up a resist and that turning a game, cool, let's look at that, but the replay shows nothing except a defiant middle finger on the way to an L.

We are 8 years past the days when no counters was a safe auto-ban. Is that calc scary? Absolutely. Terrakion's STABs make it very good, freeing up its moveslots in ways that most other Pokemon can only grumble about enviously, but I don't think it's broken.

 

[Moutemoute]

Since when Palossand is played max Defense ? If I'm not mistaken, most of the time it runs 164 Def or 132 Def which means it can be OHKO by +4 Continental Crush after Stealth Rocks damages.

+4 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Palossand: 317-373 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+4 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Palossand: 326-384 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Unlike other powerful Wallbreakers like Primarina, Crawdaunt or Heracross, Terrakion has 108 BS in Speed which means it's not that easy to Revenge Kill it because it's a fast threat which can handle some hits.

 

[Sickist]

I feel overall that Terrakion is great, maybe even A++ rank stuff, but it has it's problems. For example, it has 0 recovery, so if you can get hazards up vs it, you'll make revenging it a whole lot easier. I'm not saying its not broken, I'm just saying that it's not as hard to revenge kill as stated above. Now provided you let it Sub up, that's a whole different boat. But it's not son of a blissey when it comes to revenging it. Heck its not even that fat. I'm still undecided on where I stand on it being broken or not. All I'm saying is that it's alot easier to kill it back providing it hasn't subbed in your face.

Edit: If it's running sub, go doublade...It cant touch it...

 

[Chloe]

I feel overall that Terrakion is great, maybe even A++ rank stuff, but it has it's problems. For example, it has 0 recovery, so if you can get hazards up vs it, you'll make revenging it a whole lot easier. I'm not saying its not broken, I'm just saying that it's not as hard to revenge kill as stated above. Now provided you let it Sub up, that's a whole different boat. But it's not son of a blissey when it comes to revenging it. Heck its not even that fat. I'm still undecided on where I stand on it being broken or not. All I'm saying is that it's alot easier to kill it back providing it hasn't subbed in your face.

Edit: If it's running sub, go doublade...It cant touch it...

this is incredibly misinformed. terrakion performs its function as a wallbreaker very well and these problems that you address within your post don't really exist within this role. it doesn't need recovery, nor would it likely run it if it had access to it. "revenge killing it is easier because /hazards/" isn't at all adequate as a counter argument. your whole post refuses to address any of the arguments made for its ban, and instead provides this illusion of a binary correlation where if it's easy enough to be revenge killed (without providing sound evidence) then it must not be suspect-worthy.

the recent discussion on this suspect has boiled down to whether palossand counters terrakion which isn't exactly a relevant argument for or against. one pokemon in the metagame cannot be 2hkod by any of its sets; this says a lot more about terrakion's potency than it does about anything else. yeezy makes some excellent points, which have only been met by posts demanding that either "terrak cant ko palo with +4 crush so it's not broken" or "it's easily revenged because it has no recovery xd". i personally would like to see a terrakion suspect, but am hopeful that viable arguments against may also come if that happen.

 

[Taptricity]

Well, it finally happened. I’ve found Terrakion to be massively team restricting since Gliscor’s departure so I might as well share my thoughts on it:

Regarding the post above me:

I feel overall that Terrakion is great, maybe even A++ rank stuff, but it has it's problems. For example, it has 0 recovery, so if you can get hazards up vs it, you'll make revenging it a whole lot easier. I'm not saying its not broken, I'm just saying that it's not as hard to revenge kill as stated above. Now provided you let it Sub up, that's a whole different boat. But it's not son of a blissey when it comes to revenging it. Heck its not even that fat. I'm still undecided on where I stand on it being broken or not. All I'm saying is that it's alot easier to kill it back providing it hasn't subbed in your face.

Edit: If it's running sub, go doublade...It cant touch it...

The issue is that it is too difficult to determine that Terrakion is even the Sub set at team preview and misplaying because you guessed wrong on the set can easily cost you a mon. Revenge killing it is simple, but if that was the only criteria for how broken an offensive Pokémon is then Breloom would still be here. The main issue is that once Terrakion gets in, there's almost nothing that can stop if it's an unknown set played correctly against your opponent's lack of knowledge. Even common counterplay such as regular Slowbro and Gligar fall victim to a Continental Crush and even if its a Mega Slowbro, it's forced to mega evolve in order to avoid the OHKO which as Roamer already stated, you sacrifice Regenerator and a Mega Slowbro at that low amount of health is as good as dead. Getting hazards up to whittle down the opposing Pokémon is nothing new and most of the mons that revenge kill Terrakion could accomplish it without hazards so this is just a poor strawman. And now going to Doublade, yes it walls the set but it is piss easy to take advantage of Doublade with all the Knock Offs and Pursuits being spammed in the current metagame. I was still writing this as Chloe made that counterargument but yeah a lot of your information has boiled down to strawman arguments and just the avoidance of the real issues with Terrakion.

Now to actually talk about Terrakion, the Sub set is the most ridiculous set to be discovered on it and I find Terrakion to be overwhelming for the current metagame. As the writer for the Palossand analysis, I did mention the full physical Defensive set in OO but missing out on checking the most relevant Electric-types in the tier with your Ground-type is very undesirable for most builds. So we have the usual 164 Def spread, which still isn't enough to defeat a well played Terrakion. After Stealth Rock damage, it only takes a roll of the dice to OHKO Palossand with a +4 Continental Crush. And much like Breloom, I find this overreliance of RNG to single-handedly bust through your checks far too unhealthy for the tier. I will be gladly advocating for a Terrakion suspect and not just as a joke anymore, and if the time comes, I'll be voting ban. Terrakion completely suffocates teambuilding and involves an unhealthy amount of RNG for the tier to break through its checks. Once they're gone, Terrakion just sweeps the opposing team with almost no cost of doing so.

 

[Pak]

Alright so, this isn't the most popular opinion and honestly it feels kind of weird since historically I've been one of the more ban-happy members of the community, but I firmly believe SM UU is better off with Terrakion in it. Again, I've brought this up a bunch of times, but many would agree this is without a doubt the best iteration of UU there has been this gen, and I don't see the appeal of removing one of its most prominent components. Terrakion obviously is a cut above the rest of the wallbreakers in the tier, primarily due to its near-unresisted STAB combination, great Speed tier, and respectable natural bulk. In no way, shape, or form am I trying to downplay its pure offensive capabilities or status as the tier's best roided up breaker goon. However, I don't think its presence is necessarily an unhealthy one in the grand scheme of things.

1) Promotes proactive play on both sides - This is the big one that I'll be focusing on. Anyone who's attempted to build with or utilize Terrakion in battle has surely noticed that it is far from the easiest thing to get into favorable positions, due to its mediocre defensive typing and solid-but-not-great defensive stats that may let it stomach a hit or two, but it does not come in comfortably on almost any of the tier's common defensive Pokemon (your Hippowdons, Amoongusses, Empoleons, Toges, Tentacruels, etc), and obviously, it has a generally worse time coming in on more powerful foes. While it does pose an immediate huge threat when it does find its way to favorable position, its opportunities are ultimately limited because of this. To get the most out of Terrakion, its user must often be the aggressor, and I don't think it is an awful thing to have strong play be rewarded. There are a couple of snake draft games that come to mind featuring this concept.

Pak vs Manipulative, Stage 1 Phase 1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-392883
This isn't meant to be an attempt to gas myself up or anything, but this game does a nice job of displaying my point. Going into this game, I knew my primary way of putting on pressure would be via by Choice Band Terrakion, but I would have to be really careful about how I would go about doing it. Every Pokemon on his team is capable of either hitting Terrak super effectively or at least dealing a huge chunk. Additionally, the only thing that isn't capable of tanking at least one hit at full or outspeeding in order to hit Terrakion hard was his later revealed non-Scarf Hydreigon. While healthy, there was only one Pokemon my Terrakion could effectively take advantage of without potentially getting punished in return. Also, my intended momentum gaining partners in Gligar/Rotom-H ultimately had a hard time getting Terrak in on Hydreigon during the game itself, so it was mostly on me to find opportunities to bring it in wherever I could. This included the predicted Rapid Spin and Roost turns, or bringing it in after a partner had fainted. I was rarely in a position to risk going from Empoleon to Terrakion on a Dark Pulse, as a Draco Meteor would result in my primary wincon being lost on the spot. It would be one thing if I could switch it in wherever and proceed to start throwing out powerful attacks, but given Terrakion's shaky defensive utility, I had to be more crafty and ultimately more proactive in utilizing its offensive uses.

Robjr vs Manipulative, Stage 1 Phase 2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-395766
Two Terrakions, both big threats on paper. Neither player had a clear means of gaining momentum in order to get them into favorable positions, so it was only natural that aggressive play would be rewarded here as well. Turn 14, Rob makes a double to his goon predicting Empoleon to come in, but Manip caught him by making the middle ground play of M-Altaria. This was subtle, but even when you're on the back foot momentum wise, there are often outs like this that can prevent opposing Terrakion from putting itself in prime positions to kill shit. Turn 25, Manip takes a chunk from Togekiss in exchange for an opportunity offensively, and follows it up nicely by predicting the switch to Krookodile on an obvious Stone Edge turn. The safe play would've simply lost him 55% on his Terrakion and pretty much all the momentum, but Manipulative made the proactive play that paid huge dividends in his positioning at the time. The next couple turns, Manip makes a slew of plays that further prove my point. He made another middle ground to prevent Rob's double to Terrakion, and then followed it up by getting his own Terrakion back into a good position. Look at the work Manip's has been in position to do, while Rob's has had very little options to do the same, purely because of how the two played with and around them. (Snorlax is dicks btw). I cannot stress this enough: Terrakion rewards proactive play.

Now I just touched on this, but proactive play does not only apply to Terrakion on the offensive end. For the player facing the Terrakion, it is in their best interest to do what they can to keep it out of good positions. As I talked about previously, Manipulative did a great job for the majority of his game vs Rob in covering multiple options, doing what he had to do to maintain the momentum in his favor, keeping Rob's Terrakion out. If something forces both players to think more critically, and its effectiveness is often directly in the balance of their in-game decisions, then why is it deemed unhealthy? Terrakion puts games in the hands of the players, as the game should be.

2) Decreases overall team matchup issues - Before I hear about its limited hard checks, wall of calcs, yata yata, just hear me out here. As mentioned previously, Terrakion is UU's best wallbreaker. Its defensive utility isn't fantastic but it's good enough in combination with its speed to allow it a few opportunities to potentially kill shit per game, often no matter the team matchup due to its versatility. Other, less-common, dedicated wallbreakers and threats to bulkier teams in general (think Crawdaunt, Lucario, Reuniclus, Haxorus, CM Chandelure, etc) do not all have this luxury. Terrakion is simply the best catch-all in terms of posing a huge threat to bulky teams while retaining a strong presence in the vast majority of matchups. Obviously, a good bulky team will have sufficient counterplay to common Terrak sets, but it isn't hard to incorporate partners that maximize its overall effectiveness in its role against these teams. If it is gone, it will often be necessary to resort to less conventional means of piecing together a good matchup against archetypes like stall. Due to lower speed, worse bulk, weakness to Pursuit, whatever it is, pretty much all of these quick examples are infinitely harder to fit onto functional teams, while effectively maximizing their general capabilities. Okay yes Pak, thanks for explaining why Terrakion is a better Pokemon than these, but the point is that Terrakion is far and away the most reliable option against bulkier teams among the higher ranks on the VR. Delving further and further into the lower ranks will only hurt your matchup versus the meta as a whole. Now I'm not trying to dissuade people from being creative and utilizing more niche options for team slots. Bulky teams naturally gaining some breathing room will inevitably force some overextending to covering these sorts of squads, resulting in the meta being more likely to yield strongly favorable matchups one way or the other, due to the inconsistency of worse wallbreakers against the majority of the tier.

Apologies if this was a bit all over the place at times, considering I wrote this at almost 6 AM and haven't slept. Hopefully this clears up why I believe Terrakion is ultimately a healthy presence, and should remain in the tier, at least in my opinion.

 

[Mirbro]

I know that the "issue" about Blissey has turned a little bit off. However, I felt like I needed to say something in general to close this.

First of all, skvettleif pointed out some very good arguments that were absolutely able to be discussed. Ladder and tournaments are totally two different scenarios and when discussing the role of one Pokémon in a tier you must take into account this. At some point, its arguments seemed a little bit personal (because it focused on pokeisfun and hjkhj as examples). But that's completely normal. These two players have demonstrated their great knowledge in the stall playstyle (and not only in the UU tier). Furthermore, it is totally licit to use them as examples. I recall to this because now the user is banned, and I really hope, for the community's sake, that was for something else. I really hope.

Nevermind, pokeisfun gave very good points in a Game Theory way. During action choice, a stall player can play more actively or just passively (like a standard way). Many times, when you realize that the opponent's team do not create a bad scenario or the match-up is pretty good you can passively play and win. This is something that happens in some tiers/metagames currently. And now we enter in the muddy water. In my opinion, as a stall player in SM RU and PU, there are some tiers in which stall is a very good playstyle because the lack of stallbreakers or there are only a few. PU and UU could be very cool examples. Of course there are ways to win. No team is perfect. But the options are less than Ubers or OU itself. However, when you play "very good", in other words, you play with all your cards with some stallbreakers (that in these tiers are absolutely necessary if you want to climb up and having a good built team), you can have the chance to win. Pif demonstrated very well this point in the replay that it posted. It was playing passively having 2 stallbreakers and the other opponent was playing not too aggresively but in some extent. There would be some stallbreakers that were better against pif's team but in that case, the ones from Lauris' team were enough if played well against a preserve-passive playstyle.

And, just to finish, I will just dive into the mud. I truly think that Blissey is not the problem itself. There are stallbreakers in the tier but I think that it is not enough. Some have been, due to usage/bans, abolished. Banning Blissey would be destroy stall that, in the end, it is a licit playstyle as HO is. And in these cases what I like is to create over destroy. More underrated sets or some stallbreakers are necessary if you want to break playstyle.

P.S.: pif, I wanted to tell you that your comment was pretty good expressed in a logical construction. Always love to see your feedback!

Jordi.

 

[sims796]

I have a few honest questions.

1.What happened to the Simple QnA thread? I can't seem to find it. Or was it never really there to begin with....

Rather not derail current discussions for an off topic question.

2.How valuable are accuracy lowering moves? I know they aren't sought after, especially for the effect by itself, but as a hypothetical, lets say there was a move with, oh, 70 base power that also lowers accuracy, on hit. That'll be a decent move for a defensive mon, right?

I ask this because Confusion entered my mind. The effect isn't worth using a move dedicated towards causing confuse itself (like Confuse Ray), since it's been neutered to the point where it isn't worth losing a move slot over. I figure accuracy loss would be on the same page, and we don't use it because there aren't any worthwhile moves.

 

[avarice]

I have a few honest questions.

1.What happened to the Simple QnA thread? I can't seem to find it. Or was it never really there to begin with....

Rather not derail current discussions for an off topic question.

2.How valuable are accuracy lowering moves? I know they aren't sought after, especially for the effect by itself, but as a hypothetical, lets say there was a move with, oh, 70 base power that also lowers accuracy, on hit. That'll be a decent move for a defensive mon, right?

I ask this because Confusion entered my mind. The effect isn't worth using a move dedicated towards causing confuse itself (like Confuse Ray), since it's been neutered to the point where it isn't worth losing a move slot over. I figure accuracy loss would be on the same page, and we don't use it because there aren't any worthwhile moves.

Accuracy lowering can be annoying for pokemon like Infernape and Lucario who have already used their Z-Move and rely on Focus Miss, and subsequently may be usable on stall. I know pokeisfun tried using Flash on stall. But it’s still unreliable and you’re better off using consistent answers imo.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Is there any chance of a suspect soon? I do think Altaria-Mega is flat out broken and a little bit unhealthy according to Smogon's tiering policy: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-policy-framework.3628026/

I would prefer suspecting Scizor and/or Latias but it seems unlikely that will happen (but Altaria-Mega I think is a more modest suggestion by me since we haven't really talked in depth about banning it before).

 

[Sickist]

I'm obviously not a part of the council, but I think it's fair to say probably not. Altaria is great, but it has it's issues. For example, on it's ddance sets, it requires +3 to OHKO doublade after rocks whereas Iron Head+Shadow Sneak kinda just smashes it. It's speed is also not that great, as it still gets outrun at +1 by stuff like Mega Beedrill, which is kinda not fun. Looking at defensive sets, Altaria is very susceptible to hazards, namely spikes and toxic spikes, which don't help its longevity. Overall, I don't think it's suspect worthy, although it is very good atm.

 

[avarice]

I'm obviously not a part of the council, but I think it's fair to say probably not. Altaria is great, but it has it's issues. For example, on it's ddance sets, it requires +3 to OHKO doublade after rocks whereas Iron Head+Shadow Sneak kinda just smashes it. It's speed is also not that great, as it still gets outrun at +1 by stuff like Mega Beedrill, which is kinda not fun. Looking at defensive sets, Altaria is very susceptible to hazards, namely spikes and toxic spikes, which don't help its longevity. Overall, I don't think it's suspect worthy, although it is very good atm.

While I personally think the tier as it is is fine and somewhat disagree with a malt suspect, I wouldn’t be completely opposed to it rising to S later and feel that this post undersells it a bit. Hazards and such aren’t too crippling since against spikes it can come in unmegaed. It’s bulk means it can set up a second DD without too much effort. Also its special set can surprise switchins like Doublade that are pressured to come in immediately against DD (not letting it get to +3)