NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[capefeather]

No. I completely and utterly disagree with this. Raikou and Froslass did not benefit this metagame whatsoever.

That wasn't the point at all. People need to account for the second-order effects of changes to the ban list. I'm not saying that this metagame is worse. I'm saying that there was no reason to believe, before it happened, that it would necessarily be better. (OK "no reason" is pushing it, but I hope you know what I mean here.)

Hmm, I must have misunderstood the concept of the Banlist someone mentioned above.

Sorry, my bad. Fixed the post.

 

[elchupo]

Has anyone considered RestTalk Mantine as a soft counter to Milotic? It can soak up Toxic, Toxic Milotic itself and just RestTalk to stall it out. It takes pitiful damage from HP Grass and Ice Beam, and even on the Offensive set it only takes ~25% from either, thanks to its huge SpD. Thunderbolt is nowhere near as prevalent in the metagame as the analysis would have you believe so its main weakness isn't that much of a draw back.

 

[PK Gaming]

That wasn't the point at all. People need to account for the second-order effects of changes to the ban list. I'm not saying that this metagame is worse. I'm saying that there was no reason to believe, before it happened, that it would necessarily be better. (OK "no reason" is pushing it, but I hope you know what I mean here.)

Actually, it was clear cut that the metagame would be better off without Froslass. Moltres wouldn't dominate your team and it's counters be like 3. It allowed for more diversity in your choosing of Moltres counter.

Raikou was also a little dipshit. You were required to run either Dugtrio, Registeel or Chansey to take the little shit out. Without Raikou, the metagame has a lot more diversity. I mean Raikou literally outspeeds a good portion of the metagame and limits the viabllity of a lot of pokemon.

Playing with these suspects wasn't fun to put it frankly and their removal allowed for a more varied (and erratic) metagame.

 

[Bluewind]

Thunder Fang barely hits Milotic for more damage than Crunch does, while the latter should hit Chansey among other things much harder. I still prefer a special inclined Houndoom though.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Has anyone considered RestTalk Mantine as a soft counter to Milotic? It can soak up Toxic, Toxic Milotic itself and just RestTalk to stall it out. It takes pitiful damage from HP Grass and Ice Beam, and even on the Offensive set it only takes ~25% from either, thanks to its huge SpD. Thunderbolt is nowhere near as prevalent in the metagame as the analysis would have you believe so its main weakness isn't that much of a draw back.

I'm sorry, but I would rather use RestTalk Milotic. It doesn't take heavy damage from SR and is a better tank overall imo. Especially since it gets a 1.5 physical defense boost from marvel scale as it sleeps, but it's whatever floats your boat.

I agree with Bluewind, SpecialDoom is better imo. I'd like to be able to actually damage something other than ghosts and chansey. There's just better options than PhysicalDoom.

 

[Heysup]

Huh.

I'm actually curious about this team? You don't have to tell me your team mates but how does your team deal with powerful offensive threats? (Moltres, Alakazam etc) Moltres is particular only has a few counters on offensive teams, and the only I can think of is Azumarill.

Quite simply lol. I have 3 set up sweepers, one Scarfer (rotom) and one Life Orb cleaner. Rotom easily forces out Moltres and all 3 of my set up Sweepers can OHKO Moltres when set up (Rock Polish or SD + Priority). Alakazam is even easier, I don't need to set up to OHKO it. Anything slow is getting OHKOed anyway, and Milotic is going to fall to a couple Pokemon so that my Life Orb Cleaner can sweep.

It's pretty fun actually, but I shouldn't be winning with it. I actually have no Water resist on it lol.

 

[Thund91]

Cape, I'm not forcing anyone to use anything. I'm actually challenging everyone who dislikes this meta to create a team, post it in the rmt forum, and create a standard again. Surely you agree many people copy/use very similar teams to those posted in that forum, right? Then the diversity would die down a bit, and maybe we can even find a suspect or two again (doubt it).

And nope, don't get frustrated in the slightest. I've continuously lost to hax or misprediction or just playing recklessly, and it doesn't affect me. I just keep trying or switch up my teams a bit. I have a large amount of teams so when I get bored of one I start using another.

 

[anti404]

most of my teams do their best to not focus on any specific threat list, but rather focus on general synergy through resistances/immunities and a focused strategy. I find this works pretty well because although the Venusaur/Milotic/Fire and Swellow/Scyther or Moltres/Donphan cores seem common, there's a lot of variance around.
I still suck at prediction(and thus still suck in general), but it's fun seeing a lot of things and playing with good Pokes I like.

 

[LoveHate]

Well with Tauros I acknowledge I think that I must give a shout out to Zangoose as he is a beast. CB and SD hit like a truck it is such a shame that he can't take a hit.

 

[Heysup]

Cape, I'm not forcing anyone to use anything. I'm actually challenging everyone who dislikes this meta to create a team, post it in the rmt forum, and create a standard again. Surely you agree many people copy/use very similar teams to those posted in that forum, right? Then the diversity would die down a bit, and maybe we can even find a suspect or two again (doubt it).

And nope, don't get frustrated in the slightest. I've continuously lost to hax or misprediction or just playing recklessly, and it doesn't affect me. I just keep trying or switch up my teams a bit. I have a large amount of teams so when I get bored of one I start using another.

Complaining about diversity =/= complaining about the ladder being too easy/boring. I shouldn't win with some teams that I run, ever. Especially at 1650+ cre.

 

[SJCrew]

Maybe we need more good players to raise the standard and bring some semblance of order to the tier?

I'd love to play if only there were something in UU/NU I liked worth half a damn.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Right, Capefeather was complaining about the ladder being too easy by saying that he can't even make lower reqs now. The ladder is not easier or harder than it is compared to the previous rounds, people are just less concerned about their CRE and more willing to experiment because there are more than likely not going to be any suspects this round (unless people nominate lolmoltres and loldugtrio again). I'm loving not facing the same types of teams over and over again myself, although it's a little disconcerting that I still occupy the top two slots on the ladder even though I haven't played in a few days. Apparently people need some sort of "standard" playstyle to start battling seriously. Maybe I'll actually post an RMT this time around...

 

[Thund91]

Right, Capefeather was complaining about the ladder being too easy by saying that he can't even make lower reqs now. The ladder is not easier or harder than it is compared to the previous rounds, people are just less concerned about their CRE and more willing to experiment because there are more than likely not going to be any suspects this round (unless people nominate lolmoltres and loldugtrio again). I'm loving not facing the same types of teams over and over again myself, although it's a little disconcerting that I still occupy the top two slots on the ladder even though I haven't played in a few days. Apparently people need some sort of "standard" playstyle to start battling seriously. Maybe I'll actually post an RMT this time around...

This, basically.

And my posts were mainly addressing the fact that people were complaining that the meta is too diverse, and I offered a solution they might want to look into.

And Heysup, how often do you face a leaderboard quality player? I haven't faced probably 90% of the people currently on the leaderboard. Never faced Franky (I think), and I only fought LR like once or twice, with troll teams. >_>

 

[franky]

Oh believe me Thund you have, I've laddered heavily this round and actually peaked #1 the first time under my alliance -fluent-, though I stopped now. I've ran into you a couple of times. I will agree with what you are saying though -- the level of the ladder is pretty poor at the moment and there are several people in the 1700s in the top 5 (that is ridiculous). Play the suspect ladder in OU -- one of the most difficult ladder to play on with all the top tier players playing under their alts. The UU ladder this round isn't really that competitive compared to the previous rounds because there really isn't a main objective for the players. Ironically enough, we were visioning a fun metagame with the tier balanced, but it turned out to be the complete opposite.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Well, it IS a fun metagame. It's just not one that people are motivated to play competitively; it's really a lot more fun to screw around and try to find novel sets and Pokemon. Basically, what I do every round, most people are doing now.

 

[PK Gaming]

Franky, you were Fluent? Man your everybody. 0_o

Well, it IS a fun metagame. It's just not one that people are motivated to play competitively; it's really a lot more fun to screw around and try to find novel sets and Pokemon. Basically, what I do every round, most people are doing now.

This basically. In short, the tier HAS the right pokemon (nothing broken), but the players are certainly lacking the drive to play. (although the suspect ladder in OU is really fun and is probably occupying everyone's time)

 

[shrang]

Well, it IS a fun metagame. It's just not one that people are motivated to play competitively; it's really a lot more fun to screw around and try to find novel sets and Pokemon. Basically, what I do every round, most people are doing now.

Yeah, I agree with this, it is very fun mucking around with weird sweepers like Shiftry and Rhydon, but I have absolutely no incentive in full on laddering.

 

[Heysup]

Well, it IS a fun metagame. It's just not one that people are motivated to play competitively; it's really a lot more fun to screw around and try to find novel sets and Pokemon. Basically, what I do every round, most people are doing now.

Are you trying to argue that not playing competitively = more fun on a competitive Pokemon website?

If a ladder isn't competitive, it isn't going to be fun for many people. If you get satisfaction from beating / losing against Pokemon using anti-standard, unorthodox, or even outclassed sets, then good for you. Some people, myself included, enjoy the challenge of facing another player "at their best" instead of using odd Pokemon to try and surprise their way through the ladder. I haven't got any of that this round, where as the last rounds people actually cared to play competitively.

That's what I am complaining about. I thought Capefeather was saying something similar I dunno.

People are fucking around using bad sets or teams and they get destroyed by other teams that I would never use in a serious environment.

 

[capefeather]

Actually, it was clear cut that the metagame would be better off without Froslass. [...] diversity in your choosing of Moltres counter. [...] Without Raikou, the metagame has a lot more diversity. [...] Raikou [...] limits the viabllity of a lot of pokemon. [...] Their removal allowed for a more varied (and erratic) metagame.

OK.

Issues and Concerns:

• Too much variety is chaos.
• Variety without quality is useless.
• No one can master a game with too many options
• "Wide" is sufficient, not "widest"
• How knowledgeable should players be?

I'm not saying that this metagame has "too much variety". I think that you're taking my comment(s) more seriously than I meant them. It is a fact that some people have been hit hard by a metagame that they expected to be similar to the Yanmega metagame. I just think that this metagame and both of the OU metagames have a specific moral to them, which is that people won't necessarily like an increase in "variety" in and of itself. Everything has a second-order effect.

Personally, I don't have a huge preference for either OU metagame, and I haven't had that much of a preference for any of the UU metagames since I started. But that's just me. We all have different, about equally valid opinions and I think that sometimes we forget this. I'd also like to say that I do like this metagame too... I just find some aspects of it strange, as I said before.

Thund:

Your tone betrays you. Your "solution" is presumptuous and cynical at best, and it doesn't help that you threw the word "pathetic" around like it was a hearty chuckle. Your insistence that losses don't affect you at all completely missed the point, and taken literally it implies that you don't strive to improve your teams and/or playing style. And I'm pretty sure you do strive to do just that. It's unfortunate, but that is what this looks like from my side of the internet and I apologize that it has turned out this way.

Right, Capefeather was complaining about the ladder being too easy by saying that he can't even make lower reqs now.

I specified quite clearly who said what, so please don't quote me out of context again.


Please, we all have this or that which we don't like about this metagame. Someone will come up with one complaint or another. This is a fact of life. We will have disagreements. So please don't take what other people say the wrong way because this sudden inability to read among several users is starting to scare me. I really hope we can return to a point in which mods don't have to delete entire sub-conversations on this thread.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I'm not arguing anything. I'm merely stating facts. If it offends you that a large group of people on the ladder would rather experiment with novel sets than play competitively I invite you to make a hardcore team full of what you feel are the best pokemon in the tier and get to the top of the leaderboard, since by your argument it's very easy to beat gimmicky users like me and thund. If enough people do that maybe players like us will take the ladder seriously enough to start using bog standards again! Until then though please excuse me if I continue using things like venomoth and ninetales and still end up consistently winning the vast majority of my games against players using things like Moltres and Milotic

Edit:
Capefeather, how did I quote you out of context? Could you elaborate?

 

[Yuggles]

...You guys are complaining about the vast majority of players not being good enough to entertain you? That is a very egotistical and selfish reason to hate the current metagame. Some good reasons to hate it:

- Elitism running rampant
- Feeling the need to post all the time because you think people 'expect' it from you
- Junk like Last Resort Ambipom, Mantine, etc.
- Arguing about nothing (hint: This page)

Yeah, in a no-suspect metagame, a megathread is hardly even needed, and spews out crap like this. It used to be fun to check the thread to see discussion about suspects/actual cool threats or new ideas, but now it's just not worth coming in here (except if you're one of the people I outlined in my second bullet)

 

[capefeather]

First of all:

What I don't quite understand is why people are being called out for saying the metagame is too hard when the most recent trend is to claim that the metagame is too easy (like with Heysup's post).

Not me. I've been consistent with saying that I was finding this metagame harder than it was before.

Second of all:

If it offends you that a large group of people on the ladder would rather experiment with novel sets than play competitively I invite you to make a hardcore team full of what you feel are the best pokemon in the tier and get to the top of the leaderboard, since by your argument it's very easy to beat gimmicky users like me and thund.

It doesn't offend me or Heysup (I'm guessing). Heysup's problem is that people aren't trying. Maybe you are trying, idk.


Also guys stop thinking that complaining about the complaining will make the complaining stop. Obviously it's getting worse and all you're doing is quoting out of context and offending people.

 

[M BLADE]

Hello, guys?

The metagame changed?
Answer: of course.

There's any "suspect" right now?
Answer: No.

Is this metagame much diverse and enjoyable than the metagames we had before?
Answer: Diverse? Yes. Enjoyable? That depends of the person: some find it more enjoyable, while others complain about some "details".

Is this metagame competitive?
Answer: This is one of the "details" i mentioned.
With no "centralization", it's harder to make the "standard" teams or strategies. Without standard teams... well, we have to figure how to make a effective team ourselves instead of just going with the same effective strategy (Spikes/Moltres abuse? Raikou cleaning up?)...
Let's face it: it's harder that way. Thus making a metagame much less competitive (but diverse, precisely because of the "standard" thing).

What we (my opinion) can conclude with that? Well:

Stop whining and deal with it.

I'm dealing with it.
So what if it's not as competitive as before?
You're still making nice battles against good opponents, right?
And it's not like complaining will change anything.


God...

 

[Thund91]

I'm not arguing anything. I'm merely stating facts. If it offends you that a large group of people on the ladder would rather experiment with novel sets than play competitively I invite you to make a hardcore team full of what you feel are the best pokemon in the tier and get to the top of the leaderboard, since by your argument it's very easy to beat gimmicky users like me and thund. If enough people do that maybe players like us will take the ladder seriously enough to start using bog standards again! Until then though please excuse me if I continue using things like venomoth and ninetales and still end up consistently winning the vast majority of my games against players using things like Moltres and Milotic

Edit:
Capefeather, how did I quote you out of context? Could you elaborate?

Couldn't have said it better myself.

And since my solution obviously doesn't "work" I still challenge you to find a better one. Complaining in this thread isn't solving the problem like I said numerous times even when people first started posting stuff like that.

And nope, I don't strive to build the best team out there or perfect a certain playstyle, but apparently you know the way I play better than myself.

 

[Stallion]

Thund I've beaten you three times on an alt, you need to step up your game ;). FlareBlitz too, but I lost to Heysup :(

Also to those who are calling it elitism, the crux of the matter is that some people are in fact finding the ladder too easy. I am using a team style I have never comfortably run in the past in UU and I have made it to 1570 only playing sporadically. Just because some people don't find it easy doesn't mean that it isn't for others. People are all at different skill levels, and it is a fair concern for those at higher levels that the ladder is in fact not as competitive. I want to have more matches like my SPL one with Bluewind, a tightly fought contest that ultimately came down to a few fifty fifties and required a lot of thought as opposed to playing on autopilot with your favourite team.

PS - UnderUsed is known for it's diversity. I consider myself a competent player and I have lost to guys like FlareBlitz and Thund who apparently are "gimmick" users, yet those who are running rain or Moltres/Venusaur/Milotic get trashed by me due to a lack of skill. In my newest team, I use a single pokemon to completely dismantle that core, where as if ninetales or something was the fire then my pokemon wouldn't have as easy a time. Standards are standard for a reason, but seriously be more creative people instead of bashing those who are...