Ugh, and I was hoping for Moltres too leave too :[
Am I the only one who has serious trouble with Moltres even with SR up?
Am I the only one who has serious trouble with Moltres even with SR up?
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- Thread starter reachzero
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A 50% moltres shouldn't be trouble.
Also posting to say Magic Guard is the most rage inducing ability ever and makes my defensive team drink it's own tears.
Also posting to say Magic Guard is the most rage inducing ability ever and makes my defensive team drink it's own tears.
Well, there you go. Froslass leaving will change the metagame a lot on its own, especially with lead contention. I was still on the fence with Raikou, who I thought might be less broken without the easy spikes support. I was hoping we would see a round with Raikou minus Froslass to see if he was more manageable. I never used him, so no great loss for me. Oh well.
Nice to see Moltres stays too. Super powerful, but 90 base speed makes her that little bit easier to revenge kill than Raikou was. Speed seems to be a determining factor in what offensive threats stay and go in this tier.
This looks like the tier we lost last year, sans Honchkrow. Looking forward to it.
Nice to see Moltres stays too. Super powerful, but 90 base speed makes her that little bit easier to revenge kill than Raikou was. Speed seems to be a determining factor in what offensive threats stay and go in this tier.
This looks like the tier we lost last year, sans Honchkrow. Looking forward to it.
Yay, less offense! The only offensive teams were Raikou + Dugtrio abuse, Moltres +Froslass abuse, Swellow abuse, Rain (used Raikou), and random anti-meta teams. This weakens almost all of those and keeps stall pretty much intact. ^______^
P.S.: how do you get one of those UU Suspect Voter badges?
P.S.: how do you get one of those UU Suspect Voter badges?
My view on the metagame is that the most effective play style is the one used so commonly in OU, balance. Really a strong defensive core like Regibro + Clefable and a bulky ghost can cover basically all threats for your sweepers. At least thats how I've been playing and its worked out well so far.
Also I think we get the voter check when someone gets around to it lol.
Also I think we get the voter check when someone gets around to it lol.
Geez people. Can noone build a team anymore. Absol, Blaziken and co can easily destroy stall.
But it's much more easy to whine about it. I think I'm done bothering with those kind of posts at this point.
It's funny because it's a UU subforum yet half the posts in it are by people who seem like the know nothing about the tier. If you signed up with Smogon, you must at least know what a wall/stallbreaker is. Oh emm gee! Their walls are walling me! Get a clue people...
"Stall has always been one of (if not) the most solid play styles of the DPP era, and thst isn't something unknown by the majority of players; actually being quite the contrary. If you haven't ever ragequitted at some pink pokémon at some point of your life, you haven't really played pokémon. However, some interesting points regarding stall being "way too hard to break" have been arised; so I believe it's fit to talk about this notable situation.
This hype regarding stall is pretty much what can be called the lack of preparation to handle something. There is no single pokémon that can break stall alone, as different teams prepare for different threats; and just like you can't say you're safe against hyper offense teams because you run something like Swellow or Absol, who can abuse the absurd amount of frail pokés that these teams tend to employ, or because you have Brick Break somewhere on your team to make those annoying screens as good as nothing; you can't also say that because you're employing SD Absol or Blaziken you'll beat every stall team you face. However, it's important to bear in mind that having some kind of game plan against these stall teams, that tend to have a somewhat similar structure along the lines of spinner, ghost-type, bulky water, Chansey, bulky grass-type, Venusaur counter; is extremely important, and when you just don't have a safe switch to something stall constantly carries (like Milotic), or if you simply can't break through a certain poké (cya, Umby), you can't really expect to win.
Finally, it's very important, like against any team, that you can keep the momentum on your side and limit the amount of free turns you give your opponent to setup hazards and heal; and that's where the so said stallbreakers come in, because differently from spamming your team with Milotic, Registeel, Donphan and Moltres, all pokés that have to pray for those hazards to be down or that crit to kick in; these pokés tend to weaken the core of stall teams in pretty much all situations, not to the point of netting you a 6-0; but at least getting you one or two kills if played well and opening holes that other pokés of yours can abuse."
Yeh, I'm bored so I decided to write this. Probably is filled with content and grammar mistakes, but I hope people will find this really useful and won't have that many troubles when facing a stall team. Maybe they'll even get to kill that Chansey! (sarcasm ends here)
This hype regarding stall is pretty much what can be called the lack of preparation to handle something. There is no single pokémon that can break stall alone, as different teams prepare for different threats; and just like you can't say you're safe against hyper offense teams because you run something like Swellow or Absol, who can abuse the absurd amount of frail pokés that these teams tend to employ, or because you have Brick Break somewhere on your team to make those annoying screens as good as nothing; you can't also say that because you're employing SD Absol or Blaziken you'll beat every stall team you face. However, it's important to bear in mind that having some kind of game plan against these stall teams, that tend to have a somewhat similar structure along the lines of spinner, ghost-type, bulky water, Chansey, bulky grass-type, Venusaur counter; is extremely important, and when you just don't have a safe switch to something stall constantly carries (like Milotic), or if you simply can't break through a certain poké (cya, Umby), you can't really expect to win.
Finally, it's very important, like against any team, that you can keep the momentum on your side and limit the amount of free turns you give your opponent to setup hazards and heal; and that's where the so said stallbreakers come in, because differently from spamming your team with Milotic, Registeel, Donphan and Moltres, all pokés that have to pray for those hazards to be down or that crit to kick in; these pokés tend to weaken the core of stall teams in pretty much all situations, not to the point of netting you a 6-0; but at least getting you one or two kills if played well and opening holes that other pokés of yours can abuse."
Yeh, I'm bored so I decided to write this. Probably is filled with content and grammar mistakes, but I hope people will find this really useful and won't have that many troubles when facing a stall team. Maybe they'll even get to kill that Chansey! (sarcasm ends here)
Treat it as me saying it as a curiosity (I personally have no strong opinion on any of the suspects one way or another).
Anyone want to post the paragraphs they sent in? I want to see them (for any suspect), including the paragraphs that were rejected.
@ Banedon: I can PM you my paragraphs if you want to see (Froslass, Moltres, Duggy). I'm not going to post them up on the megathread simply because it would piss people off by making them scroll down forever.
EDIT: Anyway, anyone used Stallbreaker Gligar?? Sure, it can't really break through stall, but it can provide you with some good momentum with Taunt+U-Turn
EDIT: Anyway, anyone used Stallbreaker Gligar?? Sure, it can't really break through stall, but it can provide you with some good momentum with Taunt+U-Turn
Don't let it get to you on a personal level. Just work on it. (Like I am, I'll try to post less)
Umbreon is gone...
WHAT THE FUCK IS BULLSHIT. STOP USING IT OU GAWD!!! THERE GOES MY STAR PLAYER!!!
ahem.
... Your kidding. You just said Raikou being a suspect was a joke in the last topic. You secretly wanted him BL?!? I call shenanigans.
Ah yes, good idea. Anyway, Banedon, here's my paragraphs if you want to see them (They definitely have tl;dr status):
Raikou: Abstaining, therefore not writing a paragraph
Froslass: I believe Froslass to be BL under the Support Characteristic. Firstly, we will defined the Support Characteristic, by Smogon, to the "If a Pokemon can consistently create an environment for which a teammate can sweep a significant portion of the opponent's team, then it is BL/Uber". To make this clearer, I will say that the Pokemon can only be BL if that piece of Support is the only thing holding a sweeper from outrightly broken. Back to Froslass, her effectiveness in UU can be compared to the effectiveness of Deoxys-S in Ubers, where unless the opponent runs a designated anti-lead, Froslass will get 2-3 layers of Spikes up most of the time. Coupled with the ability to not see those Spikes getting Spun away in her face, those Spikes are likely to stay for a big part of the match. This is what sets Froslass apart from any other Spikes user, be it Cloyster, Omastar, Glalie, etc. Froslass is also the fastest out of the UU Spikers, and with access to Taunt, can shut down many other leads at the same time. Those faster than Froslass (With the exception of Sneasel), are 2HKO'd if they ever dare to Taunt her. Examples of this include Ambipom and Alakazam. This is not mentioning the fact that Froslass can also run a bulky Spiker set that can beat most Spinners, meaning that 2 or 3 layers of Spikes will be there to chip away the health of opposing Pokemon for the remainder of the match.
So, enough on why Froslass is an excellent (too excellent) Spiker, now to explain why Spikes make sweepers broken, because that is what the Support Characteristic is trying to scrutinise. The best example to show this is the example of Registeel. Registeel is one of the best walls in UU, being able to take most attacks and being able to paralyse it with Thunder Wave. It is genearally able to defeat Raikou should its health be over 75%, and anything under would be shaky. However, if the Raikou user's team has 2 layers of Spikes up (Which is usually quite easy to achieve with Froslass), and does stuff like double switching out knowing Registeel would come in and immediately threaten out, only to bring Raikou in again later, the Registeel would be at 62.5%, which is now within a 2HKO range for Life Orb Raikou's Thunderbolt (LO Timid Raikou's Thunderbolt does 29.12% - 34.62%). Another great example would be Moltres. With just 2 layers of Spikes, Modest Life Orb Moltres can guarantee a 2HKO to standard Milotic with Air Slash + Hidden Power Grass (Air Slash does 35.79% - 42.13%, while HP Grass does 44.67% - 52.79%), something that would not be as easy to achieve should Cloyster or Qwilfish or other UU Spikers be in the same position as Froslass. Such damage calculations show that two layers of Spikes allow sweepers to muscle past its designated counters. Froslass can do this much more easily than other UU Spikers, and her typing prevents those Spikes from being spun away easily. This is why Froslass is BL.
Moltres:
I believe Moltres to be UU. To do this, it is best to show that it does not fit in any of the three Characteristic of an Uber, Offensive, Defensive and Support.
The Offensive Characteristic is defined by Smogon to be "Being able to sweep a significant portion of a team with little to no effort under common battle conditions". My interpretation of "being able to sweep a significant portion of a team" is that the Pokemon can come in at any point in the game (As long as it comes in on something that's relatively safe for it), be it early, mid or late game, set-up ONCE, and KO 2-3 Pokemon after setup (2 Pokemon if its late game). "Little to no effort" is usually indicated by how much support said Pokemon requires to carry out the sweep. I will assume "Common battle conditions" in UU to be no weather effect or other field effects like Trick Room, Tailwind and Gravity are up, Stealth Rock is up and no Screens (Reflect, Light Screen) are up. In these conditions, I do not believe that Moltres to fit the Offensive Characteristic. First of all, if Moltres is to sweep, the premier wall of UU, Chansey, must be removed, or Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes need to be up for Moltres to come even close to 2HKOing Chansey with Fire Blast. Secondly, if only Stealth Rock is up, Moltres has no business fighting against bulky Waters like Milotic and Slowking, and the only of way getting past them is if 2 or more layers of Spikes (Or SR and more than one layer of Spikes) are up. Moltres can also get past bulky Waters by running a Sunnybeaming set, but that would severely cut into its type coverage. Thirdly, should Stealth Rock be up on Moltres' side, it would lose 50% upon switch-in, already hampering its sweep before it has started. Lastly, although its Speed is reasonably good for UU standards, it is still not good enough to be sweeping a significant portion of teams. Faster Pokemon like Mismagius, Raikou, Dugtrio, Swellow, Rotom and Miltank are all perfectly capable of coming in and revenge killing it or simply forcing it out. If Stealth Rock is up (Which is commonly is), Moltres would have effectively lost 50% of its HP. Due to this, in order for Moltres to sweep effectively, it requires: 1) A Rapid Spinner to remove Stealth Rock 2) Chansey and bulky Waters to be removed 3) A layer of Stealth Rock and Spikes or 2 layers of Spikes and 4) Pokemon with higher than Base 90 Speed that can revenge Moltres to be removed. That, in my opinion, is way too much support for Moltres to be banned under the Offensive Characteristic.
The Defensive Characteristic is defined by Smogon to be "Being able to wall a significant portion of the metagame with little to no effort under common battle conditions". My interpretation of "a significant portion of the metagame" would be a simple majority, >50%. Although Moltres can run a rather annoying Stall set using Flamethrower/Substitute/Roost/Toxic, it isn't able to wall the metagame unless it is safely behind a Substitute. Most of the time, Moltres would be able to force a Pokemon, set up a Substitute, and Toxic the incoming Pokemon (Usually a bulky Water) before its Substitute is broken. While Moltres can Substitute a few more times to allow Toxic damage to accumulate on the opponent, most of the time Moltres would be forced out before the opposing Pokemon faints. If Stealth Rock is up, Moltres cannot switch back in (Otherwise its stall would have been very short should it have switched out at above 50% HP). Moltres also needs other conditions for it to stall efficiently. Toxic Spikes is very important to any SubRoost staller, and unfortunately, they aren't as viable in UU due to the number of good grounded Poison types (Venusaur being the most obvious) who can come in and absorb them. Simply put, Moltres is not able to wall most of the metagame, therefore should not be banned under the Defensive Characteristic.
The Support Characteristic is defined by Smogon to be "Being consistently able to create a condition in where a teammate can sweep". This includes creating a condition such as Rain and Sun, entry hazards, free setup, or simply being able to repeatedly punch big holes into an opposing team so a teammate can clean up later. I do not believe Moltres to fit the Support Characteristic even though it can punch holes into a team easily due to power of its attacks, it itself requires a ton of Support to do its job already (See Offensive Characteristic arguments). This would mean that unless all of those Support conditions are met, Moltres is not going to be able to consistently setup situations for a teammate frankly because of the support it needs itself. Moltres does not have access to supporting moves like Heal Bell, Wish or anything like that either, so it cannot support the team in a game-breaking fashion in that area either.
Moltres does not fit either of the Characteristics of an Uber, therefore I will vote Moltres to be UU.
Dugtrio:
I believe Dugtrio to be UU. Again, we must look at the three Characteristics of an Uber.
Offensive Characteristic: Dugtrio does not fit the Offensive Characteristic, because it is not going to be sweeping a team. Base 80 Attack is usable with its ability, but it is definitely not anything special. Even with a Choice Band, it fails to OHKO a full health Registeel. It can use its very good Base 120 Speed to be a reasonable late-game cleaner, but this is provided everything faster than it (Swellow and Choice Scarfers), priority have been removed and defensive Pokemon have all been weaken. This is definitely way too much support for Dugtrio to banned under the Offensive Characteristic.
Defensive Characterisitc: Dugtrio obviously does not fit the Defensive Characteristic with its pathetic defenses resembling somewhat like Deoxys-A (Although not THAT bad). Pretty much any attack will at the worst 2HKO it (Iron Head from Registeel, one of the weakest physical attacks, does over 70% to Dugtrio). Even Seismic Toss 2HKOs after Stealth Rock. Dugtrio would be one of the last Pokemon to be banned under the Defensive Characteristic.
Support Characteristic: Here is where Dugtrio's "brokenness" is called into question. Dugtrio is able to trap and kill Chansey and Registeel without much problem (Chansey with Beat Up and Registeel with Earthquake) using its near-unique ability Arena Trap, freeing up a sweep for dangerous sweepers like Moltres and Raikou. However, I would like to point out that although Dugtrio can use its ability to remove these threats, it still will not be able to consistently create conditions for such teammates to sweep. This is because most teams would be able to use another Pokemon as a secondary check to these sweepers. For example, in the example of Moltres, Dugtrio eliminates Chansey. There is no reason why the Chansey user wouldn't pack a bulky Water alongside Chansey (Bulky Waters have become integral parts of most teams in any metagame anyway). Raikou is another example. Dugtrio can remove or severely injure Registeel so Raikou can sweep past it. However, there are still other checks for Raikou that a player can easily run. Torterra can stop all non-HP Ice Raikou, Steelix all non-HP Water Raikou and so on. All of these Pokemon are quite common in the UU metagame. Dugtrio might have remove one check (And it will not be so easy to remove the other one, either because Dugtrio would be unable to, due to their bulk, or the opposing is now alerted to Dugtrio's presence and will be more protective of their Moltres/Raikou/Sweeper's checks) but not the others. What's worse, Pokemon like Chansey can easily run Shed Shell if Dugtrio becomes so prevalent that it becomes necessary to do so. So yes, while Dugtrio can make the job of a fellow sweeper easier, it is usually not easy enough for Dugtrio can be banned under the Support Characteristic. Another aspect is that since Dugtrio needs to power of Choice Band to be anywhere near efficient, it would usually become locked into a move which can be setup fodder for an opposing sweeper. A Pokemon like Torterra (And many, many, others) can easily come in on Dugtrio and set up Rock Polish and proceed to sweep should its counters be removed. In this case, it is absolutely irrelevant that Raikou or Moltres' counters have been removed, since they are going to be swept anyway. Dugtrio's usefulness in trapping and taking out counters must be weighed up against its liability to the user (And this liability can be very weighted), and this is usually not enough to ban Dugtrio under the Support Characteristic.
Dugtrio does not fit any of the Characteristics of an Uber, therefore I will be voting Dugtrio to be UU.
Froslass: I believe Froslass to be BL under the Support Characteristic. Firstly, we will defined the Support Characteristic, by Smogon, to the "If a Pokemon can consistently create an environment for which a teammate can sweep a significant portion of the opponent's team, then it is BL/Uber". To make this clearer, I will say that the Pokemon can only be BL if that piece of Support is the only thing holding a sweeper from outrightly broken. Back to Froslass, her effectiveness in UU can be compared to the effectiveness of Deoxys-S in Ubers, where unless the opponent runs a designated anti-lead, Froslass will get 2-3 layers of Spikes up most of the time. Coupled with the ability to not see those Spikes getting Spun away in her face, those Spikes are likely to stay for a big part of the match. This is what sets Froslass apart from any other Spikes user, be it Cloyster, Omastar, Glalie, etc. Froslass is also the fastest out of the UU Spikers, and with access to Taunt, can shut down many other leads at the same time. Those faster than Froslass (With the exception of Sneasel), are 2HKO'd if they ever dare to Taunt her. Examples of this include Ambipom and Alakazam. This is not mentioning the fact that Froslass can also run a bulky Spiker set that can beat most Spinners, meaning that 2 or 3 layers of Spikes will be there to chip away the health of opposing Pokemon for the remainder of the match.
So, enough on why Froslass is an excellent (too excellent) Spiker, now to explain why Spikes make sweepers broken, because that is what the Support Characteristic is trying to scrutinise. The best example to show this is the example of Registeel. Registeel is one of the best walls in UU, being able to take most attacks and being able to paralyse it with Thunder Wave. It is genearally able to defeat Raikou should its health be over 75%, and anything under would be shaky. However, if the Raikou user's team has 2 layers of Spikes up (Which is usually quite easy to achieve with Froslass), and does stuff like double switching out knowing Registeel would come in and immediately threaten out, only to bring Raikou in again later, the Registeel would be at 62.5%, which is now within a 2HKO range for Life Orb Raikou's Thunderbolt (LO Timid Raikou's Thunderbolt does 29.12% - 34.62%). Another great example would be Moltres. With just 2 layers of Spikes, Modest Life Orb Moltres can guarantee a 2HKO to standard Milotic with Air Slash + Hidden Power Grass (Air Slash does 35.79% - 42.13%, while HP Grass does 44.67% - 52.79%), something that would not be as easy to achieve should Cloyster or Qwilfish or other UU Spikers be in the same position as Froslass. Such damage calculations show that two layers of Spikes allow sweepers to muscle past its designated counters. Froslass can do this much more easily than other UU Spikers, and her typing prevents those Spikes from being spun away easily. This is why Froslass is BL.
Moltres:
I believe Moltres to be UU. To do this, it is best to show that it does not fit in any of the three Characteristic of an Uber, Offensive, Defensive and Support.
The Offensive Characteristic is defined by Smogon to be "Being able to sweep a significant portion of a team with little to no effort under common battle conditions". My interpretation of "being able to sweep a significant portion of a team" is that the Pokemon can come in at any point in the game (As long as it comes in on something that's relatively safe for it), be it early, mid or late game, set-up ONCE, and KO 2-3 Pokemon after setup (2 Pokemon if its late game). "Little to no effort" is usually indicated by how much support said Pokemon requires to carry out the sweep. I will assume "Common battle conditions" in UU to be no weather effect or other field effects like Trick Room, Tailwind and Gravity are up, Stealth Rock is up and no Screens (Reflect, Light Screen) are up. In these conditions, I do not believe that Moltres to fit the Offensive Characteristic. First of all, if Moltres is to sweep, the premier wall of UU, Chansey, must be removed, or Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes need to be up for Moltres to come even close to 2HKOing Chansey with Fire Blast. Secondly, if only Stealth Rock is up, Moltres has no business fighting against bulky Waters like Milotic and Slowking, and the only of way getting past them is if 2 or more layers of Spikes (Or SR and more than one layer of Spikes) are up. Moltres can also get past bulky Waters by running a Sunnybeaming set, but that would severely cut into its type coverage. Thirdly, should Stealth Rock be up on Moltres' side, it would lose 50% upon switch-in, already hampering its sweep before it has started. Lastly, although its Speed is reasonably good for UU standards, it is still not good enough to be sweeping a significant portion of teams. Faster Pokemon like Mismagius, Raikou, Dugtrio, Swellow, Rotom and Miltank are all perfectly capable of coming in and revenge killing it or simply forcing it out. If Stealth Rock is up (Which is commonly is), Moltres would have effectively lost 50% of its HP. Due to this, in order for Moltres to sweep effectively, it requires: 1) A Rapid Spinner to remove Stealth Rock 2) Chansey and bulky Waters to be removed 3) A layer of Stealth Rock and Spikes or 2 layers of Spikes and 4) Pokemon with higher than Base 90 Speed that can revenge Moltres to be removed. That, in my opinion, is way too much support for Moltres to be banned under the Offensive Characteristic.
The Defensive Characteristic is defined by Smogon to be "Being able to wall a significant portion of the metagame with little to no effort under common battle conditions". My interpretation of "a significant portion of the metagame" would be a simple majority, >50%. Although Moltres can run a rather annoying Stall set using Flamethrower/Substitute/Roost/Toxic, it isn't able to wall the metagame unless it is safely behind a Substitute. Most of the time, Moltres would be able to force a Pokemon, set up a Substitute, and Toxic the incoming Pokemon (Usually a bulky Water) before its Substitute is broken. While Moltres can Substitute a few more times to allow Toxic damage to accumulate on the opponent, most of the time Moltres would be forced out before the opposing Pokemon faints. If Stealth Rock is up, Moltres cannot switch back in (Otherwise its stall would have been very short should it have switched out at above 50% HP). Moltres also needs other conditions for it to stall efficiently. Toxic Spikes is very important to any SubRoost staller, and unfortunately, they aren't as viable in UU due to the number of good grounded Poison types (Venusaur being the most obvious) who can come in and absorb them. Simply put, Moltres is not able to wall most of the metagame, therefore should not be banned under the Defensive Characteristic.
The Support Characteristic is defined by Smogon to be "Being consistently able to create a condition in where a teammate can sweep". This includes creating a condition such as Rain and Sun, entry hazards, free setup, or simply being able to repeatedly punch big holes into an opposing team so a teammate can clean up later. I do not believe Moltres to fit the Support Characteristic even though it can punch holes into a team easily due to power of its attacks, it itself requires a ton of Support to do its job already (See Offensive Characteristic arguments). This would mean that unless all of those Support conditions are met, Moltres is not going to be able to consistently setup situations for a teammate frankly because of the support it needs itself. Moltres does not have access to supporting moves like Heal Bell, Wish or anything like that either, so it cannot support the team in a game-breaking fashion in that area either.
Moltres does not fit either of the Characteristics of an Uber, therefore I will vote Moltres to be UU.
Dugtrio:
I believe Dugtrio to be UU. Again, we must look at the three Characteristics of an Uber.
Offensive Characteristic: Dugtrio does not fit the Offensive Characteristic, because it is not going to be sweeping a team. Base 80 Attack is usable with its ability, but it is definitely not anything special. Even with a Choice Band, it fails to OHKO a full health Registeel. It can use its very good Base 120 Speed to be a reasonable late-game cleaner, but this is provided everything faster than it (Swellow and Choice Scarfers), priority have been removed and defensive Pokemon have all been weaken. This is definitely way too much support for Dugtrio to banned under the Offensive Characteristic.
Defensive Characterisitc: Dugtrio obviously does not fit the Defensive Characteristic with its pathetic defenses resembling somewhat like Deoxys-A (Although not THAT bad). Pretty much any attack will at the worst 2HKO it (Iron Head from Registeel, one of the weakest physical attacks, does over 70% to Dugtrio). Even Seismic Toss 2HKOs after Stealth Rock. Dugtrio would be one of the last Pokemon to be banned under the Defensive Characteristic.
Support Characteristic: Here is where Dugtrio's "brokenness" is called into question. Dugtrio is able to trap and kill Chansey and Registeel without much problem (Chansey with Beat Up and Registeel with Earthquake) using its near-unique ability Arena Trap, freeing up a sweep for dangerous sweepers like Moltres and Raikou. However, I would like to point out that although Dugtrio can use its ability to remove these threats, it still will not be able to consistently create conditions for such teammates to sweep. This is because most teams would be able to use another Pokemon as a secondary check to these sweepers. For example, in the example of Moltres, Dugtrio eliminates Chansey. There is no reason why the Chansey user wouldn't pack a bulky Water alongside Chansey (Bulky Waters have become integral parts of most teams in any metagame anyway). Raikou is another example. Dugtrio can remove or severely injure Registeel so Raikou can sweep past it. However, there are still other checks for Raikou that a player can easily run. Torterra can stop all non-HP Ice Raikou, Steelix all non-HP Water Raikou and so on. All of these Pokemon are quite common in the UU metagame. Dugtrio might have remove one check (And it will not be so easy to remove the other one, either because Dugtrio would be unable to, due to their bulk, or the opposing is now alerted to Dugtrio's presence and will be more protective of their Moltres/Raikou/Sweeper's checks) but not the others. What's worse, Pokemon like Chansey can easily run Shed Shell if Dugtrio becomes so prevalent that it becomes necessary to do so. So yes, while Dugtrio can make the job of a fellow sweeper easier, it is usually not easy enough for Dugtrio can be banned under the Support Characteristic. Another aspect is that since Dugtrio needs to power of Choice Band to be anywhere near efficient, it would usually become locked into a move which can be setup fodder for an opposing sweeper. A Pokemon like Torterra (And many, many, others) can easily come in on Dugtrio and set up Rock Polish and proceed to sweep should its counters be removed. In this case, it is absolutely irrelevant that Raikou or Moltres' counters have been removed, since they are going to be swept anyway. Dugtrio's usefulness in trapping and taking out counters must be weighed up against its liability to the user (And this liability can be very weighted), and this is usually not enough to ban Dugtrio under the Support Characteristic.
Dugtrio does not fit any of the Characteristics of an Uber, therefore I will be voting Dugtrio to be UU.
It honestly wasn't much of an argument at all. It's just annoying when people stay stall is too hard to beat. And honestly, I find it is that easy. Just beef up your team with stuff that handles stall. It doesn't mean go HO or a team of 6 stallbreakers- use pokes that can support you as well as hurt the opposing stall user. Sleep moves (sometimes) and tauters really help with this.
All I was saying is for people to be realistic, instead of bringing some bullshit because they can't beat a certain playstyle.
The primary mistake people make when playing stall is that they don't predict. Any well-built stall team WILL have answers to any of your pokemon unless you run really obscure shit. In that case, the only way you can hope to beat them is wear them down with residual damage by keeping the pressure on. If you switch a Toxicroak in on their Milotic and you know they have an Spiritomb, for instance, don't just keep the Toxicroak and and NP up or whatever. Double switch to your Moltres or Blaziken. Keep your momentum. This really applies to any team; do not give the opposing team a chance to put their plan into action and you'll win against any style of play consistently. I once pointed out that to someone watching a match between me and jak, for example, we would both look like utter retards, doing things like switching Torterra out of Milotic and switching Toxicroak into Uxie. This is because we're both trying to maneuver and gain the initiative through prediction, and if you want to start winning consistently, that's what you need to do as well.
Exactly. Double switching and keeping the pressure on with residual damage is one of the keys to winning against stall....one good predicted switch-in could change the match. Also, NP Toxicroak 2HKOs Spiritomb with a boosted Sludge Bomb. Just thought I'd point it out ;)
NP Croak is a nightmare for stall period. 2HKOing Chansey and OHKO Registeel 100% of the time. Makes an easy switchin to Milotic(any bulker water) Venusaur (non offensive/not sleep powder) or any toxic.
He can 1-2HKO all of them with 2+ moves of choice. Hands down the best anti-stall pokemon.
He can 1-2HKO all of them with 2+ moves of choice. Hands down the best anti-stall pokemon.
An easy way for stall to ensure that it doesn't lose multiple pokes to obscure threats is to run a trick scarfer. When you consider almost all of the big difficulties for stall have fighting attacks it becomes fairly easy to switch in ghosts and trick. If they are forced out it is possible that eating hazards twice will keep them from setting up again. It is also a good idea to have priority attacks as fail-safes as well. Also, having something fast on your stall is almost always a good idea. Quick stall just makes things so much more difficult for the opponent. They have to have defensive answers for your threats while also attempting to keep momentum on you. Most of the threatening sweepers and wall breakers in the tier (Toxicroak, Absol, Blaziken, Rhyperior, and Azumarill to name a few) all have middling speed stats or decent speed stats and extreme frailty, meaning it isn't even all that difficult to outspeed and kill even with walls. Arcanine outspeeds and threatens the first two and can do some pretty good damage to Blaze. Milotic scares off the last two.
You can argue all you wish about how well-built offense is better than stall, but the amount of stall in the tours and at the top of the ladder is a pretty good indication that it is a powerful style in all arenas of play. Stall forces offensive players to play very, very well and have very cohesive strategies in order to break it. Even then there is no guarantee.
You can argue all you wish about how well-built offense is better than stall, but the amount of stall in the tours and at the top of the ladder is a pretty good indication that it is a powerful style in all arenas of play. Stall forces offensive players to play very, very well and have very cohesive strategies in order to break it. Even then there is no guarantee.
Yeah it really is a nightmare for stall to face. It gets so many free switch-ins against stall (Milotic, Chansey etc.) that a NP is basically a guarantee.
You sure about that IB? I'm getting 39.8% - 47% against defensive variants (252/96 Careful/Calm), which isn't a 2hko even if Croak rolls max damage twice. Unless it poisons >_>
Has anyone seen a rise of sun teams? This is a bit of a problem since Victirebell in the sun outspeeds my scarf rotom.
Hmm really? Mine dealt around 58% to a CB Tomb. But now that I calculate it, I rolled absolute max damage lol. Sorry bout that...but it still does a bunch whereas Spiritomb can't do much back.
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