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NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

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No, it's not a "metagame oscillation". Dugtrio reached the peak of its usage during the previous suspect test, primarily because it could trap Raikou and its counters. It's not anywhere near as common now, and the metagame wasn't particularly centralized when it was common, and it sure isn't centralized around it now. And people are saying Dugtrio sucks because it does. What are you going to do against stall? You can't ohko Omastar or Rhyperior (can't even 2hko the latter for god's sake), you can't trap any ghost besides spiritomb (who beats you easily), you can't live through Registeel's Ice Punch while it can live through an Earthquake, Chansey outstalls you unless you run Beat Up (which makes it much, much shittier against anything but a stall team that has Chansey on it) and against literally everything else on stall Dugtrio is about as useful as anything else with a base 80 ATK and STAB Earthquake. Oh and not to mention Dugtrio cannot switch in to anything, ever, unless you're willing to risk it dying while accomplishing absolutely nothing. So yes, the long and the short of it is that Dugtrio sucks. Now, that doesn't mean "don't use it", because I can probably make a team which has niches that Dugtrio perfectly covers, and if you need something to handle Drapion or Houndoom (watch out for sucker punch) or Raichu (lol) then yeah, feel free to use a Dugtrio. But don't go "hurr i haz dugtrio no more worrying about stall!!1" because that's just stupid and I've been seeing too much of it.
 
Seconding that notion - Dugtrio really has absolutely horrid offenses, though with Raikou gone running Adamant isn't stupid. Note that a STAB Earthquake fails to OHKO LO Absol of all things. It's really not meant for anything but sniping away at weakened pokes, at which it excels.

I may be a bit late to the party, but I've found that Arcanine works pretty well as a fast Scarfer. Not a lot of people expect it to be scarfed, and fire is a very good STAB in this metagame once the bulky waters are taken care of. It can also wreck Houndoom's Sucker Punch with its faster Extremespeed and hit bulky waters for decent damage on a predicted switch with Dragon Pulse or HP Grass.
 
No, it's not a "metagame oscillation". Dugtrio reached the peak of its usage during the previous suspect test, primarily because it could trap Raikou and its counters. It's not anywhere near as common now, and the metagame wasn't particularly centralized when it was common, and it sure isn't centralized around it now. And people are saying Dugtrio sucks because it does. What are you going to do against stall? You can't ohko Omastar or Rhyperior (can't even 2hko the latter for god's sake), you can't trap any ghost besides spiritomb (who beats you easily), you can't live through Registeel's Ice Punch while it can live through an Earthquake, Chansey outstalls you unless you run Beat Up (which makes it much, much shittier against anything but a stall team that has Chansey on it) and against literally everything else on stall Dugtrio is about as useful as anything else with a base 80 ATK and STAB Earthquake. Oh and not to mention Dugtrio cannot switch in to anything, ever, unless you're willing to risk it dying while accomplishing absolutely nothing. So yes, the long and the short of it is that Dugtrio sucks. Now, that doesn't mean "don't use it", because I can probably make a team which has niches that Dugtrio perfectly covers, and if you need something to handle Drapion or Houndoom (watch out for sucker punch) or Raichu (lol) then yeah, feel free to use a Dugtrio. But don't go "hurr i haz dugtrio no more worrying about stall!!1" because that's just stupid and I've been seeing too much of it.
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Well, considering dugtrio totally destroys chansey with beat up, i see no reason to pass over it. You act as if there are better moves to put on LO dugtrio over beat up and that is just untrue.

drapion is extremely common on stall because of toxic spikes, pursuiting ghosts, and whirlwind, as well as general bulkiness. a ohko from dugtrio is absolutely phenomenal when you consider how it opens the game up for something like np mismagius (who is primarily countered by chansey, registeel, drapion, and spiritomb, 3 of whom are killed easily by dugtrio unless they use the horrible shed shell, and yes it is horrible when that extra hp from leftovers can completely change the game).

For the record, 12% of Registeel use Ice Punch in UU because it is an almost useless move that Dugtrio can still survive sometimes and still beat with Earthquake.

It's the fact that Omastar is easy pickings for an EQ revenge kill is why some people say Dugtrio "dominate" stall. Eventually stall is worn down at certain points in the game and Dugtrio can come in and say "nah, i'm not going to let you play the switch to counters / healing game anymore". this drastically changes the game when you lose many of your premiere counters.

I would say dugtrio is a perfectly viable option of "dominating stall" if you can use it correctly, and although that can be said for any pokemon, dugtrio is the one who can actually do it because of his trapping ability.

As for "long and short; Dugtrio sucks", then I doubt you have really seen what Dugtrio can do in the hands of a competent player. When you have enough speed and attack (yes it has enough attack when you have a 150 power eq backed by life orb), you can trap and kill many of the popular uu pokemon if they have even lost a little health.
 
Uh there are plenty of other things that could go in Dugtrio's final moveslot besides Beat Up. It needs Earthquake/Stone Edge/Substitute, and the last slot can be Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Aerial Ace, or Toxic. All of them are useful in their own way, and they're all definitely less situational than Beat Up. Dugtrio's ability to trap defensive Drapion would be relevant if it could actually KO it (Jolly LO Duggy does 63.4% - 75.6% to a typical stall Drapion, and that's not even a max DEF Drapion). Drapion ohkos back with Crunch after SR and LO, in case you were wondering. Registeel's Ice Punch usage is about as relevant as Chansey's usage. And if you're going to try the "well what if stall is weakened..." argument (ignoring just how weak its members need to be...Standard Utility Omastar, for instance, takes 58.1% - 68.6%, and it's actually "weak" to Dugtrio) I'll just point out that Magmortar can ohko literally every common member of stall once they're "sufficiently weakened". It doesn't need to trap anything to accomplish this, and it can actually ohko things that are weak to its STAB!
 
Although Dugtrio lost of its prime revenging targets when Raikou moved up, it certainly isn't fair to say that it's shit right now. Dugtrio is (and has always been) a premier revenge killer due to the combination of Arena Trap and decent enough attacking power.

@Flare Blitz
Yes, Dugtrio can't OHKO those pokes that are common on stall, but nobody is expecting Duggy to single-handedly counter all of those threats (well, Beat Up absolutely destroys Chansey). It's unreasonable to assume that all of them stay perfectly healthy throughout the match, and as the damage from switching and taking hits adds up, Duggy will almost always find an opening to come in and elminate a certain wall. As kd24 said, the reason why Duggy is effective against stall is because when said wall is in KO range (which really isn't THAT limited), it's not going to be able to switch into a resistor and then come back to wall some more.

Finally, a humorous log to support Duggy:

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
uragg. sent out The Rulers Back (lvl 100 Cloyster ?).
chasemcawesome sent out Bastiodon (lvl 100 Bastiodon ?).
The Rulers Back used Surf.
It's super effective!
Bastiodon lost 56% of its health.
Bastiodon used Metal Burst.
The Rulers Back lost 100% of its health.
The Rulers Back hung on using its Focus Sash!
---
The Rulers Back used Surf.
It's super effective!
Bastiodon lost 44% of its health.
chasemcawesome's Bastiodon fainted.
---
chasemcawesome switched in Sunflora (lvl 100 Sunflora ?).
The Rulers Back used Ice Shard.
It's super effective!
Sunflora lost 68% of its health.
Sunflora used Sunny Day.
The sun began to shine!
The sun continues to shine.
---
chasemcawesome switched in Entei (lvl 100 Entei).
Entei is exerting its pressure!
The Rulers Back used Ice Shard.
It's not very effective...
Entei lost 10% of its health.
The sun continues to shine.
Entei's leftovers restored its health a little!
Entei restored 6% of its health.
---
Entei used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
The Rulers Back lost 0% of its health.
uragg.'s The Rulers Back fainted.
The sun continues to shine.
Entei's leftovers restored its health a little!
Entei restored 4% of its health.
---
uragg. switched in Hola Hovito (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Entei used Flamethrower.
A critical hit!
Hola Hovito lost 96% of its health.
Hola Hovito used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
The sun continues to shine.
Hola Hovito's leftovers restored its health a little!
Hola Hovito restored 6% of its health.
---
Entei used Flamethrower.
Hola Hovito lost 10% of its health.
uragg.'s Hola Hovito fainted.
The sun continues to shine.
---
uragg. switched in Takeover (lvl 100 Dugtrio ?).
Takeover used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Entei lost 100% of its health.
chasemcawesome's Entei fainted.
Takeover lost 10% of its health.
The sun continues to shine.
---
chasemcawesome switched in Sunflora (lvl 100 Sunflora ?).
Pointed stones dug into Sunflora.
Sunflora lost 12% of its health.
Takeover used Sucker Punch.
Sunflora lost 20% of its health.
chasemcawesome's Sunflora fainted.
Takeover lost 10% of its health.
The sun continues to shine.
---
chasemcawesome switched in Ursaring (lvl 100 Ursaring ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ursaring.
Ursaring lost 12% of its health.
Takeover used Earthquake.
A critical hit!
Ursaring lost 88% of its health.
chasemcawesome's Ursaring fainted.
Takeover lost 10% of its health.
The sun faded.
---
chasemcawesome switched in Lapras (lvl 100 Lapras ?).
Pointed stones dug into Lapras.
Lapras lost 25% of its health.
Takeover used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Lapras lost 52% of its health.
Takeover lost 10% of its health.
Lapras used Toxic.
Lapras's attack missed!
Lapras's leftovers restored its health a little!
Lapras restored 6% of its health.
---
Takeover used Earthquake.
Lapras lost 29% of its health.
chasemcawesome's Lapras fainted.
Takeover lost 10% of its health.
---
chasemcawesome switched in Hitmonchan (lvl 100 Hitmonchan ?).
Pointed stones dug into Hitmonchan.
Hitmonchan lost 6% of its health.
Takeover used Earthquake.
Hitmonchan lost 76% of its health.
Takeover lost 10% of its health.
Hitmonchan used Agility.
Hitmonchan's speed was sharply raised.
---
Takeover used Sucker Punch.
It's not very effective...
Hitmonchan lost 18% of its health.
chasemcawesome's Hitmonchan fainted.
uragg. wins!
chasemcawesome has left the room.
 
As I said before, there are enough Pokemon in the tier that can decimate a "weakened" stall team by themselves. Who cares that it can trap things when it needs them to be at half health or less to kill them? Magmortar, Blaziken, Toxicroak, and Venusaur, to take just a few examples, can just sweep a stall team once key members are low on health, and they can actually switch on things instead of just waiting around until something dies, so I fail to see why anyone would want to use Dugtrio as a stallbreaker over them. Edit: Bulk Up Hitmonchan seems nice, and the SubPunch is pretty badass. I actually read a Hitmonchan analysis over in C&C which had some impressive calcs, but it relies on CB Focus Punch, so...
 
I think a problem with Dugtrio is people try to overestimate it's trapping abilities. I can only shake my head when people try to come in on things like a thunderwaved Milotic or full health Rhyperior. If people stop using it as an cover-all and realized what it can and cannot do than more people will appreciate it's abilities.

I dislike the trapping mechanic as a whole anyway, as it takes much of the prediction away.
 
OK, I'm still not sure why I went from beating Jabba and IronBullet to losing to random 384 CRE newb #47249 (and it's pretty easy to tell newb accounts from alts from looking at the other rating values), but some small tweaks to my teams seem to have fixed my problems. It took a long time for me to let go of Nidoking (and its awesome twave stopping power) because the team has worked before for so long without any revision, but in this metagame more than ever it seems you need water resists to balance out multiple water weaknesses, especially with RestTalk Milotic running around. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I need for my other teams. SD Blaziken has admittedly been rather disappointing on another one of my teams...
 
Well, i'm always saying that Nidoking is a prime option for a quick Baton Pass (from... i don't know, Leafeon, who basically needs only Leaf Blade and Return/Double Edge as attacks, leaving space for BP)...
And Nidoking without Rivalry (as risky as it is) is rather underpowered.

About water weaknesses: Venusaur fixes this with perfection.
Speaking of Venusaur: has anyone ever tried Curse Venusaur?
 
While I'm letting go of Nidoking, I can definitely vouch for his power. Nidoking is definitely no slouch in the attacking department. 92 base Attack is not bad in a tier in which 125 is almost overkill.
 
I'm hanging on to my Nido, it makes a great lead. It loses out to Ambipom, but works well against random crap like Moltres and Rhyperior stuck into the lead spot. It can also Taunt and SR, so it can act as a "typical" lead and an antilead at the same time (though it honestly doesn't survive long enough much of the time).

Sadly, I do have 3 ground weaks on my team, and Houndoom and Toxicroak have such great synergy...
 
Narulyg said:
I'm hanging on to my Nido, it makes a great lead. It loses out to Ambipom, but works well against random crap like Moltres and Rhyperior stuck into the lead spot. It can also Taunt and SR, so it can act as a "typical" lead and an antilead at the same time (though it honestly doesn't survive long enough much of the time).

Sadly, I do have 3 ground weaks on my team, and Houndoom and Toxicroak have such great synergy...
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Ambipom is by far the most prevalent lead, though....

I've considered using Nido before due to movepool and neat typing, but his best stat is 92 and with no way to boost anything. Is it worth it? And what sets did you use?
 
Ok I barely post in this thread since its lacking some real discussion. I'd like to point out that this metagame has no favourable/strong playstyle after playing this ladder today. I'm nearing the 1700 mark already based on a team that requires good and consistent synergy. I think you'll be successful in this metagame with a very powerful synergy as supposed to stacking one of the best Pokemon in the tier. I've stalked many successful ladder players today and they all have consistent synergy that require them to rack up ladder wins consistently. Instead of using Moltres/Venu/Milotic cores, which I believe is predictable at this point, I'm just going to throw out the idea of building a team around synergy.

The Dugtrio discussions here are crazy: "Dugtrio sucks now". After I religiously supported Dugtrio in the previous mega-thread, I'd like to point out that Dugtrio is still a potent threat from what I watched - never really changed tbh. It is still capable of easily removing one member of your opponent's team with relative ease, though the only difference now is that Raikou is gone and people don't find Dugtrio that annoying. People need to realize that Dugtrio is still capable of breaking down defensive cores (again, easily). It doesn't always have to help a single Pokemon sweep, but rather, help out the entire team as a whole by tearing apart defensive cores.
 
For a Nido lead, I started out using Modest @ Life Orb with Earth Power/Ice Beam/Taunt/SR. It's currently Modest @ Focus Sash with Earth Power/Ice Beam/Tbolt/SR, which takes care of Moltres nicely. I'd say it's a good lead, and if you know you're losing out, it will be really obvious what to switch to (Levitator for EQ, Ghost/Steel for Fake Out, ect).

Keep in mind the team I'm using is only a couple steps back from ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK, so YMMV if you're more defensive. Still, BoltBeam, STAB Earth Power, and SR? Heck yes!
 
Insomniac. said:
I think a problem with Dugtrio is people try to overestimate it's trapping abilities. I can only shake my head when people try to come in on things like a thunderwaved Milotic or full health Rhyperior. If people stop using it as an cover-all and realized what it can and cannot do than more people will appreciate it's abilities.

I dislike the trapping mechanic as a whole anyway, as it takes much of the prediction away.
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Strongly agree with all of the above. I think it's trapping abilities tend to be both over- and underrated in this thread. It's a long way from god, but it's definitely worth using on many teams, too. It is a Pokemon that has a relatively unique ability that allows it to revenge kill and be a general assassin in a way no other Pokemon can. It's not going to crush everything it gets in with, because if it did it would be BL(or probably OU, like it was last gen). I think what causes the strong opinions is that it's one of the best Pokemon in the game when played perfectly and one of the worst when played foolishly, so it tends to be very feast or famine(which is part of why I'm not a huge fan). I agree about trapping, though - it's just not a very interesting mechanic.

To go back a bit, I really disagree with not using Beat Up on Dugtrio for most teams. Chansey is a huge problem for many teams throughout the first half of battles since it makes most special attackers almost useless - it's really beneficial to get that abomination out of that way to open things up for them and to ease prediction for mixed sweepers. While Dugtrio revenges pretty well I think his job his a little different a traditional revenge sweeper's and I think Beat Up usually serves his role better than random coverage moves do - plenty of other Pokemon can come in to revenge in situations it'd be using almost anything other than EQ and SE, whereas its ability to assassinate walls is fairly unique. Gotta play to his strengths!

capefeather said:
Nidoking
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I had Nidoking fever for a bit after playing/watching some RBY and GSC games to warm people up for SPL... I enjoyed it a lot this period. It feels like the speed of Pokemon in the UU metagame is so much slower right now with Raikou, Froslass, and the Pokemon that hated them gone, so it was easier to get some hits in with Nidoking than I remember it being. I wish that Milotic wasn't on basically every team though, especially the LO version, since it normally outspeeds. If something removed Milotic a little more reliably I think I'd use it and Nido and cause some trouble, though not even like Passho Houndoom is quite reliable enough(plus that duo is like a neon PLEASE 6-0 ME WITH RANDOM FAST SWEEPER sign). Pity there just isn't anything that does it quite well enough...
 
You can always use a Milotic lure. Passho Berry Aggron does pretty well here, surviving the surf. You can run a defensive burst set, a offensive Rock polisher with the berry etc.

I actually played your Nidoking Synre and it was pretty awesome. It's speed allows it to outspeed some common pokemon (if only it had a TINY bit more speed to outspeed Moltres...) and it's coverage is INSANE.

Edit: Kd24
For the record, 12% of Registeel use Ice Punch in UU because it is an almost useless move that Dugtrio can still survive sometimes and still beat with Earthquake.
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That's too bad. Ice punch is a good option on Registeel in my opinion, he needs it so he isn't complete and utter fodder Torterra switching in.

Dugtrio's a great stall breaker but he's a one trick pony. Often times he'll be a liability against offensive/balanced teams only truly shining against a stall player. I'd much rather use Blaziken or Magmortar (who utterly destroys all forms of play due to nothing being able to safely switch in)
 
FlareBlitz said:
Oh and not to mention Dugtrio cannot switch in to anything, ever, unless you're willing to risk it dying while accomplishing absolutely nothing.
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Have you tried slow U-turns from Uxie or Mesprit or whoever to get Dugtrio in safely? You can scout switch-ins so you ensure you're trapping the right Pokemon, and hopefully the damage from U-turn allows an OHKO from Dugtrio's Earthquake.
 
I'm gonna see to it that Magmortar hauls his ass on over to UU next month. He's way too good to be lumped in with shit like Butterfree and Beedrill.
 
I have found that Moltres + Pursuit is a great tactic for beating every one of Moltres's counters except for Milotic who is still actually 2HKOed by Hidden Power Grass after Pursuit. It's only weakness has been attacks missing vs Chansey (unfortunately in my SPL battle...) and being fully paralyzed vs Slowking but other than that it has worked like a charm.
 
Pursuit in general is really good. I'm pairing a trapper Drapion with a bunch of fighting types. Only problem seems to be Scyther. Medicham practically acts as my lure/secondary sweeper so CB Hitmonlee can muscle its way through everything else. If Spiritomb decides to show up, my lead can take it on in a rather odd way. }:)
 
Saw the Nidoking discussion earlier. It pairs really nicely with EspyJump Espeon. Espeon can usually get off a Calm Mind against weaker special attackers. Espeon tends to lure in stuff like Chansey, Registeel and Spiritomb. So, after a Calm Mind or two, just pass to Nidoking (Tomb can't Pursuit Espy on the way out either) and watch them all die. Chansey gets Superpowered, Registeel and Spiritomb both die to Earth Power, and the good thing about Nidoking is that it can't be Toxic'd nor paralysed, so Chansey can do moot to it. Give it some screen support and Nidoking can sweep with its incredible coverage.
 
Using Superpower on Chansey is really risky, though. If the opponent switches in on a resist, then Chansey probably will beat you. Doesn't it learn Focus Blast? I'm pretty sure it 2KOs after a few CMs with no drawbacks.
 
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