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np: UU - Can't Touch This

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Heysup said:
Firstly, the most likely situation is that Absol is going to be switching into Moonlight or Psychic. Secondly, even if Absol switches into a Calm Mind, it survives with at least enough HP for 1 Attack, which WILL OHKO Cresselia. It has a horribly low chance of surviving Night Slash, and zero percent chance of surviving Sucker Punch (I posted my calc before, and you quoted it so you obviously didn't miss it...what is so hard to understand about this?).

For reference:

+1 Cresselia Signal Beam vs Absol: 75% - 88.2%

Very very very small % chance of OHKOing after SR.



Cresselia.

I have admitted that Absol isn't a "surefire" counter to Cresselia, but it will absolutely win at least 90% of the time against standard sets, and likely take out another Pokemon in the process. This doesn't count SubCM sets, which deal with Absol much more effectively, because my argument was that SubCM w/ 176 Spe is viable.
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Hi i just signed on to this forum and I am breeding my Absol ATM.
it is kind of reassuring to see this since i've been really scared thinking i'd start playing and hit Cresselia all the time.
Also, I don't know much about the Honchkrow time metagame but i sure know it's one bada** bird.

Do alot of players use Cress? are there any other alternatives but Absol?
and is it possible to do above average without sucker punch?
 
You're right, PK Gaming, there's no comparison.

Moltres has more special attack, better coverage, and roost. It's pretty much better in every way except the negligable speed increase and the addition of Eruption.

That's why Moltres is high UU and Typhlosion is NU; it's just better.
 
Entei is a better comparison to Thyplosion. However, Entei is obviously superior in terms to access to moves (Calm Mind and Stone Edge) and Stats 115 Base 90 SpA as well as more bulky.
 
Firstly, the most likely situation is that Absol is going to be switching into Moonlight or Psychic. Secondly, even if Absol switches into a Calm Mind, it survives with at least enough HP for 1 Attack, which WILL OHKO Cresselia. It has a horribly low chance of surviving Night Slash, and zero percent chance of surviving Sucker Punch (I posted my calc before, and you quoted it so you obviously didn't miss it...what is so hard to understand about this?).

For reference:

+1 Cresselia Signal Beam vs Absol: 75% - 88.2%

Very very very small % chance of OHKOing after SR.



Cresselia.

I have admitted that Absol isn't a "surefire" counter to Cresselia, but it will absolutely win at least 90% of the time against standard sets, and likely take out another Pokemon in the process. This doesn't count SubCM sets, which deal with Absol much more effectively, because my argument was that SubCM w/ 176 Spe is viable.
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The scenario posted is a lose situation for Absol. Remember: Absol is slower than standard Cresselia at the moment (one designed to outpace base 80s). I don't know if I'm confident enough to SD and hope to hit it with Sucker Punch when it can easily unload Substitute.

Cresselia comes in..
Cresselia uses Calm Mind
Absol switches in
Swords Dance, Night Slash, or Sucker Punch? either way you are hit by Signal Beam, possibly faint with Stealth Rock down. If you decide strike it, you will lose 10 percent of your health and increase the chances of you dying.

I would say that Absol is an okay check to it with the Signal Beam set being pretty common now. I would tend to agree that Absol fares well with non-Signal Beam versions, but even then Absol is not fast enough to even combat with Cresselia. If its faster than Cresselia then I would consider it a counter.
 
j. franky said:
The scenario posted is a lose situation for Absol. Remember: Absol is slower than standard Cresselia at the moment (one designed to outpace base 80s). I don't know if I'm confident enough to SD and hope to hit it with Sucker Punch when it can easily unload Substitute.
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You must have missed all of the previous posts, as that was my point. Absol is a counter to SLOW Cresselia, which is why putting 176 EVs in Speed is worthwhile for Cresselia to outspeed Absol. Oy vey.

@ Typhlosion vs Moltres: Don't compare them they are so very different. Entei is a more fair comparison, but it is NU. This "Moltres" comment was at me saying "there is no other Pokemon in UU that sweeps with Eruption like Tyhplosion", which is true. No need to discuss this more >_>
 
So... is there any opposition to Cress being banned? Even I have conceded (haven't agreed with a ban since Abomasnow) and have accepted that Cress is to much for UU.
 
Wow, where the fuck have I been? I've read up to know that Cresselia is UU and there's been a shit ton of arguement about Absol being a counter (albeit not a sure-fire of course).

Anyways, I may not have battled in what seems like forever, and I have no idea if anyone has brought this up at all, but has anyone considered Pinsir as a Cresselia counter?

Pinsir shares the base 85 speed that Cresselia has, but as someone else mentioned, most Cresselia run just enough speed to outpace base 80 (176 I think), so really max speed Pinsir should outspeed Cresselia plenty of more times than not.

Situation? Pinsir comes in on the first sight of Cresselia, and Cresselia will either Sub, Psychic, or Calm Mind. Either way, Pinsir forces it out with Megahorn. Worst case scenario is that Cresselia does use Sub on Pinsir, so Pinsir is forced to attack (which it usually should anyway). Psychic won't exactly dent Pinsir here, as Cresselia does have pretty shit Sp.Atk anyway (even more with a Speed+ nature, only maxing out at 249 with 252ev investment).

I realize that SR will definitely wear down Pinsir from entering/re-entering the battle to take down Cress, but that's why every good team carries a Rapid Spinner.

As for a set for Pinsir, I'm not exactly sure what to use, but I could see CB versions doing incredibly well. Pair it with maybe a Dugtrio to take out your opponents pokemon that comes in on the expected Megahorn (probably a steel or fire type). I don't know kind of EV spread to use either, but I'm pretty sure max/max would suit fine, unless investing more into HP to take Psychic would help (not sure if neutral Signal Beam/Psychic is 2hko or if Psychic is 2hko in general (probably is, just saying)).

What do you guys think though? I haven't played the current UU meta with Cresselia running around =/
 
I am interested who people think are the best sweepers in this UU meta. On the physical side i find scyther, swellow and absol to be fantastic while on a specail side moltres, PorygonZ and Raikou seem to be rediculous. I would also like to note how easy Frosslass makes it to sweep with these pokemon as it can easily get down 2 if not 3 layers of spikes every match.

Side note/ observation: Has anyone else noticed less emphasis on stealth rock lately. I don't mind as it allows swellow to clean up so much easier but I think that it is rather dumb as many of the pokemon in UU are there for their stealth rock weakness ... cough cough Moltres. This makes sweeping with these flying types so much easier as they avoid the spikes set up by lass and can proceed to dismantle teams
 
@Scruffy: Pinsir sadly doesn't learn Megahorn, and X-scissor doesn't hit hard enough to secure an ohko, and takes a good chunk of damage switching on Psychic + SR and/or Spikes , but it could be used as a revenger I guess
 
@Scruffy: I see Scyther doing that better than Pinsir. Of course the latter has higher attack, but the former is faster (thus making an Adamant nature more viable, and giving it one more attack point than Pinsir), has a stronger STAB and has access to U-turn. Pinsir has his advantages, like better defenses, Close Combat and such, but when it comes to countering Cresselia I guess Scyther outclasses it.
 
"Firstly, the most likely situation is that Absol is going to be switching into Moonlight or Psychic." No, that's not the most likely situation at all. No competent players attacks on the first turn with a bulky set up sweeper. And regarding Moonlight, in order for Cresselia to take enough damage to even consider using Moonlight, you'd have to have left something else in against it for several turns, which means it would have set up all sorts of nasty shit by then. Anyway, assuming that your opponent is somewhat competent and sets up a Calm Mind as you switch in Absol, it loses most of the time if it lacks Punishment. It has a good chance of dying right then and there to a +1 Signal Beam and, even if it doesn't die then, it'll die from Life Orb recoil the next turn. So at best, it kills Cress at the cost of its life. At worst, I switch in something resistant to Dark and let your Cress "counter" die after having done precisely 0%.
 
Fly-gon said:
@Scruffy: Pinsir sadly doesn't learn Megahorn, and X-scissor doesn't hit hard enough to secure an ohko, and takes a good chunk of damage switching on Psychic + SR and/or Spikes , but it could be used as a revenger I guess
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How the fuck does Pinsir NOT have Megahorn? =/

Bluewind said:
@Scruffy: I see Scyther doing that better than Pinsir. Of course the latter has higher attack, but the former is faster (thus making an Adamant nature more viable, and giving it one more attack point than Pinsir), has a stronger STAB and has access to U-turn. Pinsir has his advantages, like better defenses, Close Combat and such, but when it comes to countering Cresselia I guess Scyther outclasses it.
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Completely agree, and that didn't even cross my head. Was thinking outside the box I guess. I'm going to try defending Pinsir until I start using it (as soon as I start playing Shoddy again).
 
I have to say, I haven't used the P-Z antilead set quite enough to have a really good grip on it. But it's a dang fine set, and nothing really counters it outright. Once you get a Nasty Plot off, It's mostly priority users that pose any threat. It's pretty clear already though that this is a pokémon that doesn't belong in UU.

I've also noticed less entry hazards, which is nice. It seems that antileads are popular enough that some people are running anti-antileads that just try to set up and sweep right off the bat. How meta.
 
God Bless Atheism said:
So... is there any opposition to Cress being banned? Even I have conceded (haven't agreed with a ban since Abomasnow) and have accepted that Cress is to much for UU.
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I oppose it still. It isn't "clearly" UU, but I don't think it would make much sense at to ban Cresselia when so much more broken Pokemon were not banned.

Brass said:
I am interested who people think are the best sweepers in this UU meta. On the physical side i find scyther, swellow and absol to be fantastic while on a specail side moltres, PorygonZ and Raikou seem to be rediculous. I would also like to note how easy Frosslass makes it to sweep with these pokemon as it can easily get down 2 if not 3 layers of spikes every match.
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I agree almost 100% with this post, however, I would put Houndoom up there with Pz and Moltres for best special sweepers.
FlareBlitz said:
"Firstly, the most likely situation is that Absol is going to be switching into Moonlight or Psychic." No, that's not the most likely situation at all. No competent players attacks on the first turn with a bulky set up sweeper. And regarding Moonlight, in order for Cresselia to take enough damage to even consider using Moonlight, you'd have to have left something else in against it for several turns, which means it would have set up all sorts of nasty shit by then.
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Likely situation:

Venusaur uses Leaf Storm, Cresselia switches in (34.5% - 40.5%)
Now if Cresselia doesn't Moonlight here it will absolutely lose to whatever comes in.

Another likely situation:

Timid Moltres Fire Blast: it uses Moonlight and Absol comes in.

Lets see...more?

Scyther U-turn
Swellow U-turn
Donphan Assurance
etc
etc
etc

The list goes on, Cresselia doesn't just "walk in" for free, and if it does, it is still countered most of the time by Absol.

FlareBlitz said:
Anyway, assuming that your opponent is somewhat competent and sets up a Calm Mind as you switch in Absol, it loses most of the time if it lacks Punishment. It has a good chance of dying right then and there to a +1 Signal Beam and, even if it doesn't die then, it'll die from Life Orb recoil the next turn. So at best, it kills Cress at the cost of its life. At worst, I switch in something resistant to Dark and let your Cress "counter" die after having done precisely 0%.
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@ bolded: That's blatantly false. I posted the calcs already (does 88% Maximum...it KOes only if it does absolutely maximum damage), and it CLEARLY has a very small chance of being KOed.

And assuming you magically predict correctly and use Calm Mind, and magically have 100% of HP, you are still forced out by Absol. This means you are going to have to sacrifice one of your Pokemon to take it out. (Keep in mind, it can Sucker Punch if you don't have sub).
 
And yet, with you claiming Froslass is broken, why wouldn't there be Spikes on Absol's side? With one layer of Spikes and SR up, Absol can no longer check +1 Cress. Hell, it's more likely there's more than one layer up. And if it's so easy to get up Spikes with Froslass anyway, then even if they were spun away before, why aren't they just re-set up?
 
supermarth64 said:
And yet, with you claiming Froslass is broken, why wouldn't there be Spikes on Absol's side? With one layer of Spikes and SR up, Absol can no longer check +1 Cress. Hell, it's more likely there's more than one layer up. And if it's so easy to get up Spikes with Froslass anyway, then even if they were spun away before, why aren't they just re-set up?
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Beat me to it.
 
I oppose it still. It isn't "clearly" UU, but I don't think it would make much sense at to ban Cresselia when so much more broken Pokemon were not banned.
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To be perfectly clear, I don't think Cress is 100% BL either however, I would like her to step aside so we can finish up were we left off (Froslas and Raikou). Like I've said since forever, we need to split up these guys (p-Z, cress) in order to have clearer results.

Also,

Here is a thought... Gravity. I'll leave you with that.

Edit:

Actually, holy crap...

Stantler @
Ability: Intimidate
EVs:
- Roar
- Gravity
- Hypnosis

Base 85 Speed and access to dual screens,

I think Stantler just found his Niche.
 
Whatever happened to the fast track mentioned by jabba? Enough talk, lets just take a supermajority and hook cress.
 
supermarth64 said:
And yet, with you claiming Froslass is broken, why wouldn't there be Spikes on Absol's side? With one layer of Spikes and SR up, Absol can no longer check +1 Cress. Hell, it's more likely there's more than one layer up. And if it's so easy to get up Spikes with Froslass anyway, then even if they were spun away before, why aren't they just re-set up?
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Because then we are going to be playing the "omg what if" game that happens every time a counter / check is brought up. Every time.

Well if you managed to run into this situation:

Let the opponent set up Spikes.
Let the opponent set up SR.
Fail to Spin them away.
Let Cresselia get in and stay at 100% (this is simply unlikely)
Get outpredicted when you switch to Absol, so Cresselia uses Calm Mind or Signal Beam.

Then Absol will still win 25% of the time due to crits, but yea, Absol is no longer reliable. Will this sequence of events ever happen? Rarely.

So there is your "omg what if" situation. I can make one for Absol too, but I won't bother since I know it is a silly game to play.

I will just say this and be done discussing Absol vs Cresselia; Absol will be able to counter Cresselia most of the time, assuming Absol's team isn't outplayed early. This is why 176 Speed is useful.
 
Smurf. said:
perhaps that should be moved so everyone can have a say in that discussion?
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I agree....One thing they keep bringing up is that cresselia's counters are such and such but they fail to mention how easy those counters are to beat...we all know that dugtrio is cresselia's best friend right now and its like that for a reason...

Cresselia isnt a one-man-army (and sometimes it can be) but no good sweeper sweeps on its own...the majority if not all of cresselia's counters are very simple to take out and switch into...
 
Since I see a lot of Cresselias using a Calm Minding sweeping set, she can be beaten by what all bulky sweepers fear: Status. I've been checking Cresselia with my SubRoost Moltres, poisoning when it thinks it can Calm Mind on me then SubRoost stalling it. Cress with Psycho Shift is annoying, but knowing that she has Psycho Shift means she's going have piss for coverage, assuming she has Moonlight, she'll get walled by Drapion and other Dark types.

CM/Moonlight/2 Attacks is always stalled out by SubRoost, a +3 Psychic only does around 50%. CM/Moonlight/Psycho Shift gets walled, CM/Psycho Shift/2 Attacks will die to Toxic, as I can just Toxic her again after it has Shifted its poison. CM/Sub/2 Attacks either gets phazed by a teammate or Toxic'd on the switch, meaning it's defeated without much trouble, and CM/Sub/Moonlught will get walled like the CM/ML/PS set. Don't get started on CroCress either.
 
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