np: UU - Can't Touch This

[zorbees]

Yeah, that was me against Thund there. I am not too skilled with Rain Dance, although the threat of a Jumpluff Encore prevented me from setting up on it. I also Seed Bombed Steelix predicting a Poliwrath switch-in. I have seen Rain dominate sometimes, but I have also seen Stall dominate or Balance dominate, even against Rain (note: dominate doesnt necessarily mean 5-0 or 6-0, but execute a general strategy to near-perfection). I think Rain is a big threat, but I do think it is manageable.

 

[Thund91]

Yeah, that was me against Thund there. I am not too skilled with Rain Dance, although the threat of a Jumpluff Encore prevented me from setting up on it. I also Seed Bombed Steelix predicting a Poliwrath switch-in. I have seen Rain dominate sometimes, but I have also seen Stall dominate or Balance dominate, even against Rain (note: dominate doesnt necessarily mean 5-0 or 6-0, but execute a general strategy to near-perfection). I think Rain is a big threat, but I do think it is manageable.

This was what I was trying to get at by posting that log.

 

[ToF]

Ok please this thread is going to shit because everyone wants to mention stuff that's rarely ever seen and justify it to enforce their own thick-headed views. Specs Gorebyss, are you fucking joking me? Yeah, I'll mention Choice Band Ludicolo too in rain as uncounterable (sarcasm obviously). Can you please stick to common sets seen on Rain dance teams rather than making up bullshit and impractical theorymon just to justify your own points? I mean seriously, even the part about using a spike lead that Smurf said, are you serious? Use a spike lead and lose out on immediate rain, yeah that's really the smartest thing I've ever heard. And also FFS, how many Gorebyss use Hydro Pump? Wouldn't one miss be critical to a rain dance team that is usually as frail as glass-cannon offense?

Point is, stop making up impractical theorymon that isn't even backed up by statistics or common battling situations; this is why half of the arguments made in this thread are ignored or flat-out ignorant. You support your anti-rain claims with HARD EVIDENCE OF COMMON MOVESETS AND POKEMON and I'll step aside. Most of the people in this thread are not even open for discussion; they just wanna enforce their thick-headed views and call them correct. That's not the way it works gentlemen.

 

[YaM]

%tages from Jan

Gorebyss with Specs: Less than 8.2%
Gorebyss with Hydro Pump: 18.9%
Swords Dance Ludicolo: 17%

ToF what (how many %) would you consider a set "common"?

Anyway when you're playing against Rain at least try to use your resistances (if you see franky's first opponent... After Ludicolo gets an SD he just blindly throws Pokemon on the battlefield to die striaghtaway rather than switching to absorb a resisted hit and wasting time) I've used Rain a lot and sometimes I lose because when the first 8 turns run out and my secondary setup comes in because the primary fast and frail one (Electrode/Ambipom) is dead already.. (Secondary Setup I use Uxie but you might use Cresselia, Registeel etc.) my opponent gets pretty much a 'free' turn to set up when I Rain Dance and another as I switch. You could set up Subs or Rock Polish/Agility or Swords Dance Absol... If you Sub you can delay 4, 5 turns of Rain and maybe kill one sweeper on the way out.. If you RP twice you might be able to outspeed and KO the sweepers.. If you set up Absol and Kabutops is dead already...

 

[Yuggles]

Ok please this thread is going to shit because everyone wants to mention stuff that's rarely ever seen and justify it to enforce their own thick-headed views. Specs Gorebyss, are you fucking joking me? Yeah, I'll mention Choice Band Ludicolo too in rain as uncounterable (sarcasm obviously). Can you please stick to common sets seen on Rain dance teams rather than making up bullshit and impractical theorymon just to justify your own points? I mean seriously, even the part about using a spike lead that Smurf said, are you serious? Use a spike lead and lose out on immediate rain, yeah that's really the smartest thing I've ever heard. And also FFS, how many Gorebyss use Hydro Pump? Wouldn't one miss be critical to a rain dance team that is usually as frail as glass-cannon offense?

Point is, stop making up impractical theorymon that isn't even backed up by statistics or common battling situations; this is why half of the arguments made in this thread are ignored or flat-out ignorant. You support your anti-rain claims with HARD EVIDENCE OF COMMON MOVESETS AND POKEMON and I'll step aside. Most of the people in this thread are not even open for discussion; they just wanna enforce their thick-headed views and call them correct. That's not the way it works gentlemen.

19% of Gorebyss use Hydro Pump, and 8% use an item other than Life Orb and Leftovers. That, however, is according to two-week old statistics, and since then the massive influx of Rain Dance discussion has no doubt opened people's eyes about such tactics as Hydro Pump and Choice Specs. Even small threats are considered threats, that's how it's always worked in suspect testing and how it works in Pokemon.

 

[GMLW]

Ok please this thread is going to shit because everyone wants to mention stuff that's rarely ever seen and justify it to enforce their own thick-headed views. Specs Gorebyss, are you fucking joking me? Yeah, I'll mention Choice Band Ludicolo too in rain as uncounterable (sarcasm obviously). Can you please stick to common sets seen on Rain dance teams rather than making up bullshit and impractical theorymon just to justify your own points? I mean seriously, even the part about using a spike lead that Smurf said, are you serious? Use a spike lead and lose out on immediate rain, yeah that's really the smartest thing I've ever heard. And also FFS, how many Gorebyss use Hydro Pump? Wouldn't one miss be critical to a rain dance team that is usually as frail as glass-cannon offense?

Point is, stop making up impractical theorymon that isn't even backed up by statistics or common battling situations; this is why half of the arguments made in this thread are ignored or flat-out ignorant. You support your anti-rain claims with HARD EVIDENCE OF COMMON MOVESETS AND POKEMON and I'll step aside. Most of the people in this thread are not even open for discussion; they just wanna enforce their thick-headed views and call them correct. That's not the way it works gentlemen.

Yeah... um, about that...

Kabutops | Move | Stone Edge | 90.0
Kabutops | Move | Rock Slide | 5.9

According to that logic, they should all run Rock Slide. They don't.

 

[Stagnant]

ToF@ Flaming Post

Just because it isn't common doesn't mean you can discard it as a non-threat.

 

[FlareBlitz]

@ToF

No one mentioned CB Ludicolo because CB Ludicolo sucks. Specs Gorebyss doesn't. Unless you'd like to prove why? Wait, you can't, because it literally ohkos or 2hkos the entire fucking tier (barring things with Water Absorb). It's uncommon, yeah, but if people are going to say "hurr, gardevoir" when talking about rain checks excuse me if I don't find it hypocritical that you're bitching about usage rates.

 

[Synre]

!

I discovered I didn't actually have anything to say in response to you but mostly I agree with what you've said so I thought I'd point that out for sake of typecasting my argument.

The fact that an awful player, like me, can defeat an experienced player, like M BLADE

I don't have anything to say to this either but I just really needed to quote it

OK ON TO ACTUALLY MAKING COMMENTS

Ok please this thread is going to shit because everyone wants to mention stuff that's rarely ever seen and justify it to enforce their own thick-headed views. Specs Gorebyss, are you fucking joking me? Yeah, I'll mention Choice Band Ludicolo too in rain as uncounterable (sarcasm obviously). Can you please stick to common sets seen on Rain dance teams rather than making up bullshit and impractical theorymon just to justify your own points? I mean seriously, even the part about using a spike lead that Smurf said, are you serious? Use a spike lead and lose out on immediate rain, yeah that's really the smartest thing I've ever heard. And also FFS, how many Gorebyss use Hydro Pump? Wouldn't one miss be critical to a rain dance team that is usually as frail as glass-cannon offense?

Point is, stop making up impractical theorymon that isn't even backed up by statistics or common battling situations; this is why half of the arguments made in this thread are ignored or flat-out ignorant. You support your anti-rain claims with HARD EVIDENCE OF COMMON MOVESETS AND POKEMON and I'll step aside. Most of the people in this thread are not even open for discussion; they just wanna enforce their thick-headed views and call them correct. That's not the way it works gentlemen.

I agree with everything in this post, with one exception in the fact that apparently like 83% of the people who use Ludicolo have obviously not tried the SD set on a rain team because it's just infinitely more effective. I think there's a handful of things that make this true, but it's just infinitely easier to stop special water in UU than physical water(many of the genericish defensive Pokemon prefer to be hit with special attacks, like Milotic and Venusaur who also conveniently resist water, Registeel who is usually more invested in Spef because of shit like Raikou and Mismagius, and Chansey existing. In contrast, most of the physically defensive Pokemon in UU are weak to water with the other main physically defensive type (steel) mostly in OU to stop Dragons, so the Regirocks and Steelix of the world can't do much to physical rain like they would to ordinary physical threats. There just aren't enough Slowbros in the game.). It's kind of misleading since Ludi's Special Attack is so much better than his Attack, but it really does seem to be just dramatically more effective... if there was another really strong physical water I'd probably consider an all-physical rain team, it's just that good. There's some advantages to hitting mostly the same side of the spectrum, too, in that most teams use Pokemon dedicated mostly to stopping physical or special type attacks, so you get to wear away at the same defensive Pokemon. I haven't been using physical Ludi as long as the special version, but I doubt I will ever switch back unless I'm just theorymoning for sake of discussion. Most of my losses with rain have been because I fucked up early against Stall and physical Ludicolo makes the early turns a lot easier if he's the one to come out.

I think the biggest issue I have with Rain is that the double STAB almost makes predicting optional with some Pokemon. Using Omastar a bit is the big culprit for me, I find myself Surfing "just in case" I predict wrong a lot of times, since it's only like 33 base power lower than a 2x effective Hidden Power anyway, and if the opponent expects me to do something intelligent it's a free kill. I'm vaguely considering trying specs just to back this up since the loss in power would be even lower and it'd help ensure Chansey can't ruin my fun as easily.

%tages from Jan

Gorebyss with Specs: Less than 8.2%
Gorebyss with Hydro Pump: 18.9%
Swords Dance Ludicolo: 17%

ToF what (how many %) would you consider a set "common"?

I hate to be so on and off with this, but as much as I consider that former set completely retarded (the main reason I haven't done the Specs Omastar in Water Absorbers (as well as enemy Ludicolos, I guess), which would be a big issue here and waste rain turns. I'm also not really sure why you would use Gorebyss at all if you're sacrificing the ability to Psychic Toxicroak and Poliwrath... I really doubt the extra 20% makes that big of a difference on most opponents other than the aforementioned Chansey), I think in debating how broken rain is/n't we'd be awfully silly to avoid SD Ludi for the reasons mentioned above, though. It doesn't really matter what people are using so much as what they should be using; Specs Gorebyss is not terribly worrying, SD Ludi makes a big difference.

Yeah... um, about that...

Kabutops | Move | Stone Edge | 90.0
Kabutops | Move | Rock Slide | 5.9

According to that logic, they should all run Rock Slide. They don't.

Having lost roughly a million advance games thanks to Rock Slide missing with T-tar and Aerodactyl in Gen 3, I can safely say Rock Slide misses as well - you're not getting 100% accuracy either way, it's a completely different scenario.

 

[GMLW]

I don't have anything to say to this either but I just really needed to quote it

If you had nothing to say, then why did you quote it? M BLADE is a better player than me, what I said was true. I don't see what you meant by quoting it.

Having lost roughly a million advance games thanks to Rock Slide missing with T-tar and Aerodactyl in Gen 3, I can safely say Rock Slide misses as well - you're not getting 100% accuracy either way, it's a completely different scenario.

90% accuracy is better than 80% accuracy. Does Rock Slide miss occasionally? Yes. Does Stone Edge statistically miss more? Yes. So if you want to avoid misses, you use the more accurate move. It doesn't have 100% accuracy, but the only Rock moves that do are Ancientpower and Power Gem. Kabutops doesn't learn Power Gem, but even if it did, it would never use a special move, and same with Ancientpower. Rockslide is the most accurate move it can use, so if you don't want to miss, you use Rock Slide.

 

[Synre]

If you had nothing to say, then why did you quote it? M BLADE is a better player than me, what I said was true. I don't see what you meant by quoting it.

Yes, and everyone I wanted to understand it knows exactly what I meant by quoting it. Obviously, it wasn't for you.

90% accuracy is better than 80% accuracy. Does Rock Slide miss occasionally? Yes. Does Stone Edge statistically miss more? Yes. So if you want to avoid misses, you use the more accurate move. It doesn't have 100% accuracy, but the only Rock moves that do are Ancientpower and Power Gem. Kabutops doesn't learn Power Gem, but even if it did, it would never use a special move, and same with Ancientpower. Rockslide is the most accurate move it can use, so if you don't want to miss, you use Rock Slide.

There's a balance to it like everything else, though. There's a big difference between "will never miss" and varying degrees of "will sometimes miss." More reliable is better than less reliable, but whenever there's a chance of missing you're still taking a gamble, which is the point of saccing the power to begin with. Once you can't say "I know with absolute certainty I will kill this Pokemon by using (move)," you've lost the point of picking that move to begin with; you're still going to miss. Rock Slide may sometimes still be better, but it's unlikely it's better more often than Stone Edge (though unlike on normal teams, I find myself almost never using Stone Edge with Kabutops on my rain team unless I'm pretty much fucked, anyway). The accuracy gap is also down to 10% from 20% from the other example, even though the gap in power is the same.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Alright I know it was on the 2nd page but: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63880

please use this in all matters related to rain dance

 

[ToF]

19% of Gorebyss use Hydro Pump, and 8% use an item other than Life Orb and Leftovers. That, however, is according to two-week old statistics, and since then the massive influx of Rain Dance discussion has no doubt opened people's eyes about such tactics as Hydro Pump and Choice Specs. Even small threats are considered threats, that's how it's always worked in suspect testing and how it works in Pokemon.

Hmm, thanks for enforcing my point for me. 1/5th run Hydro Pump, and 1/10th run a non-Life Orb / Leftovers item. I don't give a fuck how much rain dance has shot up on the ladder, the stats backed up my point. Even considering running Specs on a rain dance team shows how ridiculous your points are. Locking myself into a move that could let other things come in for free, yeah that's obviously a great idea. Life Orb surely isn't the better item, or dare I say common sense item...

Yeah... um, about that...

Kabutops | Move | Stone Edge | 90.0
Kabutops | Move | Rock Slide | 5.9

According to that logic, they should all run Rock Slide. They don't.

Lol...without Stone Edge Kabutops wouldn't nearly be as overpowered now would it? And one miss and Kabutops is usually dead, so no my point wasn't incorrect. Stone Edge is used because their isn't a better rock move lol. You're comparing apples and oranges. Compare Surf and Hydro Pump, make the same analogy, and then come talk to me. They are all high risk high return sweepers; one miss and they die basically (probably Ludicolo is an exception because of its typing alone).

Just because it isn't common doesn't mean you can discard it as a non-threat.

Ok then, I'll just use Shedinja to stop rain dance teams because although it's not common, it walls half of your so called 'overpowered sweepers'. Please, this game is based on statistics and numbers, don't try and validate yourself with other random BS, or we'll never ever get any policies enacted properly.

@ToF

No one mentioned CB Ludicolo because CB Ludicolo sucks. Specs Gorebyss doesn't. Unless you'd like to prove why? Wait, you can't, because it literally ohkos or 2hkos the entire fucking tier (barring things with Water Absorb). It's uncommon, yeah, but if people are going to say "hurr, gardevoir" when talking about rain checks excuse me if I don't find it hypocritical that you're bitching about usage rates.

First off, did I ever say that Gardevoir is a rain check? Don't call me out on shit that I never said, that just furthers my point that half of you guys turn this thread into more personal attacks than intelligent discussion.

Until your Specs Gorebyss becomes common enough to warrant more attention, I don't buy that it's BL. Everything that has been deemed too powerful for a specific tier has been used and abused heavily (don't give me Wobbuffet as a counterargument either, players flat out refused to use that thing which is why it never was high on usage charts). Go use it more and then come back and restate your position, you cannot simply expect me to believe its too powerful when players don't even use it.

 

[GMLW]

Lol...without Stone Edge Kabutops wouldn't nearly be as overpowered now would it? And one miss and Kabutops is usually dead, so no my point wasn't incorrect. Stone Edge is used because their isn't a better rock move lol. You're comparing apples and oranges. Compare Surf and Hydro Pump, make the same analogy, and then come talk to me. They are all high risk high return sweepers; one miss and they die basically (probably Ludicolo is an exception because of its typing alone).

This is what I was saying. You said Rain sweepers should not use inacurrate moves because on miss spells death. Yet now you are saying that Kabutops should use Stone Edge instead of Rock Slide. This was the point I was making when I gave the usage stats. Sometimes power shouldn't be sacrificed over accuracy, even if a miss means the sweeper is dead. So you contradicted yourself by first saying they should use the more accurate Surf over Hydro Pump, but now you say that Kabutops should use the less accurate Stone Edge over Rock Slide. While I agree that Surf > Hydro Pump and Stone Edge > Rock Slide, you contradicted yourself.

 

[Bluewind]

This is what I was saying. You said Rain sweepers should not use inacurrate moves because on miss spells death. Yet now you are saying that Kabutops should use Stone Edge instead of Rock Slide. This was the point I was making when I gave the usage stats. Sometimes power shouldn't be sacrificed over accuracy, even if a miss means the sweeper is dead. So you contradicted yourself by first saying they should use the more accurate Surf over Hydro Pump, but now you say that Kabutops should use the less accurate Stone Edge over Rock Slide. While I agree that Surf > Hydro Pump and Stone Edge > Rock Slide, you contradicted yourself.

It's not the same thing man. Stone Edge is a base 100 power move with 80% accuracy, while Rock Slide is a 75 power move with 90% accuracy. That means it's got 75% of Stone Edge's power and 112.5% of the accuracy. Now, ignoring the math, it still has a chance of missing.

Surf, on the other side, is a 95 power move, with 100% accuracy, and the one to be used the most, due to rain's extra power; while Hydro Pump has 120 base power and 80% accuracy. That means Surf has roughly 80% the power and 125% the accuracy. Again, ignoring the math and going straight to the point, it never misses. Finally, Water-type moves are likely to be used more, thus increasing the chances of a miss.

 

[M BLADE]

Alright I know it was on the 2nd page but: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63880

please use this in all matters related to rain dance

Ohh best post in this thread by a mile.
And Teifu is saying that i suck. Oh man...

Ok, seriously now: Can we concentrate on the metagame rather than saying things here?

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Next post about rain in this topic gets infracted. Thanks.

 

[jamashawalker]

Ok, seriously now: Can we concentrate on the metagame rather than saying things here?

lol exactly...I'm still confused on how the discussion of rain is brought up now when it has been the exact same style with a few changes here and there


EDIT: Oops posted right after Jabba haha

 

[FlareBlitz]

Thank you, Jabba. Much needed.

SO GUYS ABOUT CRESSELIA...

But seriously. To get this thread back on track, I guess I'll give my thoughts on some of the current and previous suspects.

Cresselia: Lol.
Porygon-Z: I haven't seen many around, but Scarf versions have the potential to seriously screw my team over. However, I realize that "Screws FlareBlitz's team over" isn't a valid ban condition (unfortunately) so I'm going to abstain from voting on it, due to lack of significant experience with it.
Froslass: Still broken and annoying. Hail versions thankfully rare now, but lead variants are extremely common, for good reason. For great fun, combine spiking abilities with Swellow and Moltres. Will vote BL.
Raikou: Probably not broken, but that might just be Cresselia overshadowing it. Confident enough to vote UU for now though.
Moltres?: If it ends up being a suspect, will definitely vote UU. Honestly, I'd vote PGZ BL before I vote Moltres BL.

I believe those are all the suspects for now.

Also, given current usage trends, what Pokemon are we expecting to drop down to UU this month?

 

[Heysup]

Cresselia: Lol.

I swear if I see someone do this one more time....

Guys, for the last time, "lol" is NOT an argument. In fact, I see it as "I can't be bothered to make an argument" instead of "lolobviouslyblguyzwtf"

Raikou: Probably not broken, but that might just be Cresselia overshadowing it. Confident enough to vote UU for now though.

I still don't understand how people think that CM Cresselia is broken when they are not 100% voting Raikou BL since everyone is simply making the same "CM Cress is broken" arguments which directly apply to Raikou as well. In fact they usually apply MORE to Raikou.

Moltres?: If it ends up being a suspect, will definitely vote UU. Honestly, I'd vote PGZ BL before I vote Moltres BL.

Without Froslass I don't think this is broken either. Froslass is clearly the broken aspect of the "Froslass + Moltres" combo anyway. So yea, I agree I'd vote it UU.

 

[GMLW]

Porygon-z: I like the SubPlot set the most, although Mismagius can do that and isn't stopped by Chansey. The Scarf set is also pretty good, but being locked into Tri Attack can give a Mismagius a free sub or NP.

My guess: UU


Cresselia: This thing can be reliably beaten by CroTomb, which can wall Cresselia. Signal Beam/Ice Beam/HP Ground can't do anywhere near enough after a Calm Mind. And for all those people using Absol to beat Cresselia, Night Slash doesn't even 2HKO, and almost every Cresselia runs Signal Beam, so not a good idea. I've seen an Absol with Punishment meant to counter CM Cress, and it can 2HKO after two Calm Minds.
EDIT: Did calcs with Scarf Absol, Absol with Life Orb 2HKOs with Night Slash.

My guess: BL


Froslass: Not such a big deal if you ask me, against Stealth Rock leads, can usually only get one layer of Spikes (attacked to break Focus Sash while it Taunts, attacked again while it gets up one layer) unless they can predict the attacking move. Although against Ampibom it always gets up two layers.

My guess: BL


Moltres: I love this thing. Problems are Stealth Rock (obviously) and gets completely shut down by Chansey. Luckily, Hitmontop can get rid of both problems at once.

My guess: UU (if tested)


Raikou: I like the Sub CM the best. It's really easy to use because it can't be easily revenged due to its great speed. Also shut down by Chansey however. Really the only special sweeper who isn't is Mismagius, but that's obvious.

My guess: UU

 

[PK Gaming]

I still don't understand how people think that CM Cresselia is broken when they are not 100% voting Raikou BL since everyone is simply making the same "CM Cress is broken" arguments which directly apply to Raikou as well. In fact they usually apply MORE to Raikou.

How so? Cress is waaaaaaaaaaay more bulky. Once it gets 2+ CM its basically impossible to take it down. Raikou has some decent checks, (such as going to Venusaur or any bulky pokemon with earthquake) and Clayol can potential check it as well.

PS: No disrespect sir, your reputation precedes you.

 

[SilentVerse]

How so? Cress is waaaaaaaaaaay more bulky. Once it gets 2+ CM its basically impossible to take it down. Raikou has some decent checks, (such as going to Venusaur or any bulky pokemon with earthquake) and Clayol can potential check it as well.

It's not like Cress doesn't have checks as well. Off the top of my head, Scyther, Ambipom, Haze Milotic, and CroTomb all can do well against it. There are quite a few more checks that I haven't mentioned as well. Also, Cress almost requires to have a CM up, or else it won't be doing much damage. Raikou, on the other hand, can deal out damage quickly and doesn't need to set up nearly as badly. Though IMO, you can't really compare Cress and Raikou because the way they play is quite different.

 

[GMLW]

How so? Cress is waaaaaaaaaaay more bulky. Once it gets 2+ CM its basically impossible to take it down. Raikou has some decent checks, (such as going to Venusaur or any bulky pokemon with earthquake) and Clayol can potential check it as well.

Unless you use strong super effective physical attacks. Some that come to mind are Scyther's Bug Bite or Absol's Night Slash, both of which 2HKO.

 

[FlareBlitz]

"Guys, for the last time, 'lol' is NOT an argument."

I didn't intend for it to be an argument. Everyone here knows how I feel about Cress, and everyone here knows the arguments I made as to why it's broken. If you need to refresh your memory, go back 3-4 pages. I'm not going to clog up the tubes by copy-pasting the same thing.

"In fact they usually apply MORE to Raikou."

Raikou is beaten by the two most common special walls in the tier (Chansey/Registeel), loses instantly to Dugtrio, is easily revenged (Arcanine's Extremespeed: 65%. Sceptile's Leaf Storm: > 70%). Cress sets up on and beats Registeel and Chansey. Cress is also fat and can live through all sorts of attacks, including unboosted SE attacks from the likes of Absol. Cress has instant recovery. Cress is immune to tspikes, which wrecks any CM Raikou, and immune to spikes as as a bonus. Cress has better defensive typing (fighting resist and ground immunity > electric/steel resist) and roughly similar offensive typing.
Raikou is faster and hits harder right off the bat...and that's about it. If you think that makes up for all the disadvantages I listed above that it has respective to Cress, feel free to vote Raikou BL. But I'm probably not going to.