-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
- Status
Cress has Psychic.
Anyways, really? Cress is the issue? Most of the time Cress is a pile while Porygon-Z is obliterating shit with Trick-Specs, Trick-Scarf, LO... pretty much every set. IMHO, he resembles Yanmega in that he has 2 great abilities, decent speed, and 1-2hko's everything (lots of OHKO's with specs...).
Anyways, really? Cress is the issue? Most of the time Cress is a pile while Porygon-Z is obliterating shit with Trick-Specs, Trick-Scarf, LO... pretty much every set. IMHO, he resembles Yanmega in that he has 2 great abilities, decent speed, and 1-2hko's everything (lots of OHKO's with specs...).
Two words: STAB Psychic.
Now that I think about it, Froslass got a supermajority UU vote. Does this mean anything for whether Froslass really will be auto-nominated this round?
I'm not sure about Cresselia. I ended up not going with my originally-planned Cresselia Push style team with a Porygon-Z sweep, instead making a rather fail team trying to set up Bellyzard, lol. Cresselia Push I might actually explore later... Facing Cresselia has been a puzzling situation. It just doesn't seem to do anything, especially if you have a phazer/TrickScarfer/whatever fits in your team to screw over CM Cresselia. However, I have seen Cresselia screening in stall teams, and that's just not fun at all.
I'm not sure about Cresselia. I ended up not going with my originally-planned Cresselia Push style team with a Porygon-Z sweep, instead making a rather fail team trying to set up Bellyzard, lol. Cresselia Push I might actually explore later... Facing Cresselia has been a puzzling situation. It just doesn't seem to do anything, especially if you have a phazer/TrickScarfer/whatever fits in your team to screw over CM Cresselia. However, I have seen Cresselia screening in stall teams, and that's just not fun at all.
I'm sad to see Gallade go, but it can't be helped. One thing's for sure though, this stage of UU will be very interesting. I think Porygon-Z will fit nicely into UU, but as for Cresselia, only time will tell I guess.
What Cresselia sets are everybody running? I've seen a couple of Calm Minds ones, which I presume would have Calm Mind / Moonlight / Psychic and some form of Hidden Power. That Psycho Shift set posted by j.franky on page 2 looks pretty good too, and I'm interested to try it out but I'm not too sure about its EV spread.
What Cresselia sets are everybody running? I've seen a couple of Calm Minds ones, which I presume would have Calm Mind / Moonlight / Psychic and some form of Hidden Power. That Psycho Shift set posted by j.franky on page 2 looks pretty good too, and I'm interested to try it out but I'm not too sure about its EV spread.
I've been using Trick over Twave for the sake of screwing those teams with heal bell users, and it's been working pretty well.
I laddered all the way up to #2 yesterday using a stall team with CM Cress, and it sweept countless teams... I didn't have a lot of problems with opposing Cress though, but maybe that's because most of them ran Moonlight and I had a Taunt Drapion... also, Hidden Power Ground is the best 2nd attack CM Cress should use in my experience, together with Psychic.
and about Porygonz - jesus christ this shit hits so fucking hard.
and about Porygonz - jesus christ this shit hits so fucking hard.
Wait, wasn't there a policy change in which it was decided that new additions would be kept in BL until we had a stable tier?
I'm still waiting for my comp to get fixed... I wanna abuse Cress!
@Jabba/Reachzero - if Cresselia proves to be clearly broken, can we eject it like we did to Deoxys-speed in stage 3? Because although I like the idea of nominating a defensive suspect, I don't want to play 6 weeks with broken shit.
I'm still waiting for my comp to get fixed... I wanna abuse Cress!
@Jabba/Reachzero - if Cresselia proves to be clearly broken, can we eject it like we did to Deoxys-speed in stage 3? Because although I like the idea of nominating a defensive suspect, I don't want to play 6 weeks with broken shit.
I'm pretty sure It said it would only be placed in BL if there was a Suspect test already in motion. Since that just ended, I guess that's why they were put into UU.
Welcome to a month ago. Same "these / this Pokemon is / are all broken" posts happened. If we want to be consistent, then prepare for another tedious 6 weeks.
Ironically (since I'm usually the one bitching about broken mons) I really haven't had much trouble with Cress. I just see it as basically a better Slowbro or Uxie, who are great, but are no where near broken.
I mean I run Absol, but really, Cresselia is not impossible to break for the sole reason: it does shit all to you. Pokemon like this I really find hard to deem "broken".
On another note, I am having the same god damn trouble with team building as i had last metagame; there is just so many things you have to beat. Like I'm fine vs every team except Rain or Sun, for example (at least until I build a new team).
Maybe I should just go back to my "kill or be killed" strategy, but Pokemon like Cress make that fairly difficult ^_^.
I can't post in PR, but I am a huge supporter of "leave Pokemon in limbo or BL until testing is over" (which is what I thought we should have done for the BLs who dropped in).
Ironically (since I'm usually the one bitching about broken mons) I really haven't had much trouble with Cress. I just see it as basically a better Slowbro or Uxie, who are great, but are no where near broken.
I mean I run Absol, but really, Cresselia is not impossible to break for the sole reason: it does shit all to you. Pokemon like this I really find hard to deem "broken".
On another note, I am having the same god damn trouble with team building as i had last metagame; there is just so many things you have to beat. Like I'm fine vs every team except Rain or Sun, for example (at least until I build a new team).
Maybe I should just go back to my "kill or be killed" strategy, but Pokemon like Cress make that fairly difficult ^_^.
I can't post in PR, but I am a huge supporter of "leave Pokemon in limbo or BL until testing is over" (which is what I thought we should have done for the BLs who dropped in).
Heysup, Cress does not do "shit all" to you. All it needs is a few Calm Minds, and it's completely impenetrable on the special side and almost impenetrable on the physical side. You mention Absol, but even CB Megahorn (the strongest attack it can muster against Cress) doesn't do over 70% (iirc). Cress then ohkos Absol after 1 CM with HP Fighting and can Rest/Moonlight later on. That's what's pissing me off about it.
I don't really see why we should leave the OU dropdowns in Limbo. I mean, we're always talking about making an efficient system. I think that people are just freaked out because of the last test and the Cresselia hype. However, in all the other tests in the past and (hopefully) in the future, only one or two OUs drop down. This really shouldn't change the metagame so much so as to render previous testing useless, should it? Adding to that is the fact that, once testing is done, we'll have to drop down the Limbos and then the testing probably won't have been done at all. It just seems a lot faster to do things the way we've been doing, and not to let the last test skew our impressions of this testing system's integrity.
Sweet merciful fuck. Cress in UU? I guess if I can't beat em........
I am honestly surprised with froslass remaining. I thought for sure it was going to BL. Long before gallade was. I will miss trickband sets with gallade. *sigh* oh well.
I am not sure how I feel about PZ.
Stability ever going to return?
I am honestly surprised with froslass remaining. I thought for sure it was going to BL. Long before gallade was. I will miss trickband sets with gallade. *sigh* oh well.
I am not sure how I feel about PZ.
Stability ever going to return?
After playing a number of matches once the changes were implemented i can say that i was right in my suspicions. There are no really viable checks to it at present (don't give me some bullshit about pinsir being a counter). The fact that i am forced to run a poke - NPdoom -specifically designed to combat it is a testament to its influence on the current UU landscape. Even that is not sufficient as every team i've seen also carries a chansey for this very reason. Teams that I previously could rip through 4-0 now take me to 1-0 or worse, thanks to Dual Screen and lunar dance. Trust me, theres nothing better than to see a chansey on 8% restore all its hp and pp for softboiled.
You only need to look at how it fares against the most powerful physical and special pokemon to gauge just how broken it is.
Su(b)perior (Megahorn) v DS Cress: 45.5% - 53.6% with NO SCREENS UP
23% - 27% w/ screens
LO Alakazam (Signal Beam) v DS Cress: 38.3% - 45% with NO SCREENS UP
18.9% - 22.5% w/ screens
Is it broken defensively? yes
Is it broken as support? yes
Is it broken offensively? can be due to its high defenses, Screens and access to charge beam/Calm mind
The elusive triple threat suspect. If its not banned next time around, i'll be very, very surprised. Really, if it could fuck off tomorrow that'd be great.
You only need to look at how it fares against the most powerful physical and special pokemon to gauge just how broken it is.
Su(b)perior (Megahorn) v DS Cress: 45.5% - 53.6% with NO SCREENS UP
23% - 27% w/ screens
LO Alakazam (Signal Beam) v DS Cress: 38.3% - 45% with NO SCREENS UP
18.9% - 22.5% w/ screens
Is it broken defensively? yes
Is it broken as support? yes
Is it broken offensively? can be due to its high defenses, Screens and access to charge beam/Calm mind
The elusive triple threat suspect. If its not banned next time around, i'll be very, very surprised. Really, if it could fuck off tomorrow that'd be great.
I don't know what you are smoking, Cresselia is no where near as a big of a threat that you are exaggerating. Any Cress that doesn't carry Rest gets stopped completely by Toxic. Also, several Pokemon can easily get pass Cresselia.
Taunt SD Drapion can set up in Cress's face and after an SD, does 72.1% - 85.6% with Night Slash, always a 2HKO while Cresselia can't do anything back.
In addition, SD Absol destroys Cresselia. A +2 Adamant Night Slash from Absol does 93.2% - 109.9% to Cresselia, always a OHKO after Stealth Rock. Even behind a screen, it does 47.3% - 55.9%, still a 2HKO after SR and Leftovers recovery.
Cresselia has been strong, no doubt. But you are overly exaggerating it's abilities. In my experience, Cresselia has been incredible, but not overwhelming in any way. On my teams, I have been using a SubCM Cresselia and a Thunder Wave/Charge Beam/Ice Beam/Moonlight, both have been awesome sweepers. Cress is pretty much an amazing Defensive Pokemon, pretty much an upgraded Uxie and Slowbro, with the ability to be an amazing sweeper as well.
It will take time to see if Cress is broken or not, but so far, at least to me, it hasn't been too troubling but is definitely a threat.
...
Seriously? Yes, eventually Cresselia will die to Toxic just like any other Pokemon, and shockingly Pokemon of a type that Cresselia is weak to that are boosting their own stats will kill it. Obviously.
It's pretty telling that you could use the same arguments, for, say, Lugia. It's still a Pokemon, it's not like you have to hack Shoddy for it to die. It is dramatically better than any of the other defensive Pokemon in the tier and outperforms many of the offensive Pokemon at offense. At the same time. I don't think there's any question there is a massive power gap from it to every other Pokemon in the tier. The fact it has so many viable sets doesn't hurt it either, Sub/CM works, Sleep Talk works (with and without CM, although the non-CM version is kind of a waste), various coverage sets work, pretty much anything with "Thunder Wave" and a healing move are enough for it to fufill the support characteristic, dual screen is pretty good, especially on stall, and it can even run goofy ass Lunar Dance pretty well (though I have no idea why you would want to help your opponent kill Cresselia).
Upgraded Uxie is a dangerous understatement, but Uxie was already the sixth most used UU Pokemon last period. Why the Hell would one think a Pokemon that was already one of the best Pokemon in the tier still fit balanced in it with a significant upgrade? Salamance seems like pretty much an upgraded Altaria, lets playtest him next.
Seriously? Yes, eventually Cresselia will die to Toxic just like any other Pokemon, and shockingly Pokemon of a type that Cresselia is weak to that are boosting their own stats will kill it. Obviously.
It's pretty telling that you could use the same arguments, for, say, Lugia. It's still a Pokemon, it's not like you have to hack Shoddy for it to die. It is dramatically better than any of the other defensive Pokemon in the tier and outperforms many of the offensive Pokemon at offense. At the same time. I don't think there's any question there is a massive power gap from it to every other Pokemon in the tier. The fact it has so many viable sets doesn't hurt it either, Sub/CM works, Sleep Talk works (with and without CM, although the non-CM version is kind of a waste), various coverage sets work, pretty much anything with "Thunder Wave" and a healing move are enough for it to fufill the support characteristic, dual screen is pretty good, especially on stall, and it can even run goofy ass Lunar Dance pretty well (though I have no idea why you would want to help your opponent kill Cresselia).
Upgraded Uxie is a dangerous understatement, but Uxie was already the sixth most used UU Pokemon last period. Why the Hell would one think a Pokemon that was already one of the best Pokemon in the tier still fit balanced in it with a significant upgrade? Salamance seems like pretty much an upgraded Altaria, lets playtest him next.
Ok this needs to end now, you guys are really underestimating Cresselia's ability to fight back offensively.
Let's say that Drapion comes in on an Ice Beam, or a Thunder Wave, you said it yourself that it needs a Swords Dance to 2HKO (with a Super Effective attack mind you). That means that Cresselia gets 3 Ice Beams against it, plus Stealth Rock.
Cresselia does 24.6% - 29.2% against Drapion with Ice Beam, with Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil, that's a guaranteed 3HKO (or 4HKO with against Leftovers Drapion), which Cresselia is guaranteed to get 3 Ice Beams if you switch in on anything but Psychic. And if Drapion isn't packing Life Orb, then you still have to not be fully paralyzed 3 turns in a row, which is a 42% chance of happening. Drapion is a pretty poor counter to be quite honest.
Ok I'm sorry but why is Cresselia taking Stealth Rock damage? It's not switching in on Absol, Absol is switching in on IT. And because it's impossible to OHKO Cresselia that means you're going to get Paralyzed and made useless the rest of the match. Sounds like an awesome counter to me.
You all make it seem like 75 base SpA is so terrible, and that Cresselia is just sitting around doing 10% damage to everything... but when you can take 5+ hits against opponents before going down, it doesn't matter that Psychic / Ice Beam is only doing 20-30%, you're still doing more to them than they are to you, and you have one advantage over them: Moonlight / Rest. Cresselia certainly walls a majority of the game. Not just checks... but straight up WALLS. It's as obviously fitting of the defensive characteristic as things come.
If you're not an idiot and you use Cress, you're probably gonna win in the current meta...based on my experience, I've constantly bested people using Cress the wrong way, and struggled against those that use her correctly.
Taunt is amazing in this meta, though. I have 3 taunters on my team and it's doing rather well...still needs ironing out, though.
Last hint: Scarf Absol is quite awesome as a revenge killer.
Taunt is amazing in this meta, though. I have 3 taunters on my team and it's doing rather well...still needs ironing out, though.
Last hint: Scarf Absol is quite awesome as a revenge killer.
you guys that are pointing out counters are acting like a Cress user is going to allow you to come in unharmed, let you set up, and then hit cress 3x.
What's really going to happen is that you might come in unharmed if you are lucky. Otherwise you are taking a thunderwave to the face, ruining your sweeper, or taking hp something or ice beam.
then it is getting a thunderwave to the face or another ice beam as it tries to set up.
What's really going to happen is that you might come in unharmed if you are lucky. Otherwise you are taking a thunderwave to the face, ruining your sweeper, or taking hp something or ice beam.
then it is getting a thunderwave to the face or another ice beam as it tries to set up.
I've been using a Dual Screens Lunar Dance Cresselia, and it has been really useful in helping certain Pokemon set up late-game after early-to-mid game weakening. I find that Cresselia is bulky enough to put up a couple of screens in the early game and still have plenty enough health left for its final setup. It is especially good for reviving any particular combo that doesn't quite work out how you wanted it to first time for a second chance. Overall from the battles I have played so far, I have found that Cresselia has great synergy with Aggron. The SubPolish set is much easier to set up with Screens and the fact that Aggron comfortably sets up on most attacks that can seriously hurt Cress.
So far I have to agree with the general consensus, Cresselia is really dominating UU at the moment, which is something I have to admit has taken me by surprise. Sure I expected it to be good, but not quite this good. We shouldn't be yelling 'broken!' just yet, but I certainly can't see Cress being anything but a consistent top 10 Pokemon at least.
Fuck, I have enough problems breaking through Cress in OU, and its so much worse in UU with Scizor or Ttar =/
Both pokes aren't giving me problems... but it's just me i guess.
As a counter to Cresselia, a rather gimmicky one is Mightyena. It can get a boost on speed with Cresselia status attacks, and can bring its HP down no matter what with Super Fang, then finish it with Crunch/Pursuit. Good luck trying to make Mightyena useful outside that though.
Outside of gimmicky, i think Armaldo is one of the best answers to both. Resisting Tri Attack from Porygon-Z while having a 125 base attack with a SE STAB move for Cresselia(and it's so slow that it doesn't really mind Thunder Wave). With Wish support(and if you want, Sandstorm support which makes it even better) i think it can be one of the most reliable answers for both.
As a counter to Cresselia, a rather gimmicky one is Mightyena. It can get a boost on speed with Cresselia status attacks, and can bring its HP down no matter what with Super Fang, then finish it with Crunch/Pursuit. Good luck trying to make Mightyena useful outside that though.
Outside of gimmicky, i think Armaldo is one of the best answers to both. Resisting Tri Attack from Porygon-Z while having a 125 base attack with a SE STAB move for Cresselia(and it's so slow that it doesn't really mind Thunder Wave). With Wish support(and if you want, Sandstorm support which makes it even better) i think it can be one of the most reliable answers for both.
I haven't been having problems either. :|
- Status