Most common rock users are Registeel, Uxie, and Donphan. None of them can take a high powered fire attack.
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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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Most common rock users are Registeel, Uxie, and Donphan. None of them can take a high powered fire attack.
Regirock is great against these teams because it can do that, but i'll keep that as a moot point (will do the same about the fact ScarfUxie still sets up and bulky ones can take a hit). If you run Mono Fire sun team you'll be screwed by pretty much any Flash Fire poké paired with a Water-type sweeper to abuse situations in which sun's off; thus you'd need to run Grass pokés as well (read Registeel fodder).
Against Moltres, it guarantees it doesn't try anything funny. You then switch out without many worries.
If Ambipom uses a Dark Attck, i know it doesn't run Low Kick. Aggron, a good partner for Shedinja, can come in and launch a free Head Smash.
And the Shedinja lead is exactly for that. It stays there and SD as many times as possible against leads that prefer to set up, and starts dishing out some hits until it dies. With a SD or two and priority you can even take two or three pokes out.
The catch is that it's very hard to keep Shedinja out of Stealth Rocks and Spikes. In the lead or not, i wouldn't use it.
Unless i'm trying one of those lol teams i always try...
It would be easier if we had a spinner with a recovery move(Starmie is OU...).
This is a really well thought out post, though I have a hard time with the above.
If our suspect voters are so flimsy that they are changing their votes based on what other people are writing, we really need to find a way for them not to be voting to begin with. I mean, I can see if arguments are particularly compelling, but if voters have played for six weeks and still need someone else to tell them what they think we're in trouble.
I know exactly what I am voting on every potential suspect (unless I am surprised and something that isn't one of the following is nominated, I guess, though I'd just vote UU anyway...: Cresselia PorygonZ Moltres Froslass Raikou Damp Rock Kabutops/Ludicolo), and I really hope that is true for the other voters as well. Six weeks is waaaaaaaay more than enough time to figure shit out.
I was going to post a response to the ridiculous Shedinja post but I didn't feel like trying to translate it into English first.
What's so absurd about running Pursuit and Low Kick? It's not an illegal combination and has its uses. If you run Pursuit only, you're still screwing Shedinja up, meaning you have just wasted one pokémon slot to (maybe) get a free Head Smash, that might miss or be walled. Also, considering something 2/3 of the common leads have means of defeating it, that means the whole concept of "a lead should put you in a situation of advantage as many times as possible" is taken for granted.
Really, I'm never going to setup at the face of Shedinja if I'm not 101% sure I can deal with it no matter how many SDs it get, and I'm pretty sure not many players will as well (at least those who have an idea of what they're doing).
Actually, I'm pretty sure a lot of people qualify just so that they can say they qualified, and if these people see a long detailed post by Heysup, for example, stating that Froslass is BL, they will probably think "Well if Heysup thinks so, then it must be". Of course, this is a bit of an exaggeration, but I'm almost certain at least a few people who qualified have this mindset. For this reason, I agree with Lemmiwinks idea, as I feel it is a great way to let everyone think for themselves and make their decision based on their own experience instead of others.
Ambipom isn't going to risk a burn from Shedinja, right? If it tries to Pursuit, Focus Sash kicks in, and Shedinja uses Will-o-Wisp. Now you have a near useless Ambipom unless you have a Heal Bell user or something.
And if Shedinja SD and Ambipom Pursuits, again Focus Sash saves you, and Sucker Punch finishes Ambipom unless you predict and switch out.
Or if Shedinja uses X-Scissor then Sucker Punch...
I'm too lazy to run some calcs, but i think Shedinja has a chance to KO Ambipom with a SD Sucker Punch or a X-Scissor followed by Sucker Punch. If not... well...
So, it's more like a prediction war where Shedinja has the edge unless Ambipom has Taunt or Shedinja doesn't attack on the first turn.
It's still easier to use a Dugtrio lead against Ambipom logically.
About Ambipom attacks, Pursuit and Low Kick together means:
1- No Fake Out( no Fake Out Ambipom? wat)
2- No U-Turn
3- No strong STAB move
Without U-Turn or Fake Out, Ambipom isn't going to do it's main job as a lead (racking up some free damage). Without a STAB move, it's going to be walled by things it wasn't meant to be walled.
You can use a Fake Out/Return/Pursuit/Low Kick Ambipom for a "universal" coverage, but no U-Turn on a leading Ambipom seems... weird.
Mind you, i'm talking about the lead Ambipom. I'm sure almost every lead Ambipom runs U-Turn.
You can use Trick Shedinja too on the lead position. No need for SD, and you probably crippled something(or not).
What i'm saying is that Shedinja needs too much support to work normally while on the lead position it doesn't, despite being a good lead or not.
Like you said, Shedinja is easily "wallable" or easy to dispose of if you know what you're doing(and sometimes even when you don't know what you're doing)
Which is why i think Shedinja is only "acceptable". It's not that good as a lead IMO. Like i said, i wouldn't use it in a team, unless i have some time to create those weird teams...
I'm really lost how does voting process work? What's happening on the 20th
Welcome to the club. I don't understand it at all. I hear the word nomination being thrown around, but I thought these were already nominated and we just need to vote now.
I could swear this was just explained a few pages ago... the process goes like this:
1. The period starts, results of previous tests are announced, automatic suspects are mentioned, deviations are rolled back, etc.
2. Period ends. (Tomorrow, in this case)
3. Nominations begin. Voter or no (though I imagine you'd be a lot more convincing if you were...) people make cases for why Pokemon should or should not be suspects. Nominations may or may not be accepted.
3.5. I forget exactly when this normally happens, but qualifying accounts are posted for people to identify themselves for step 4.
4. Nominations end. "Paragraph" submitting starts for people who are eligible voters, where they send their paragraphs to Jabba and or reachzero who again may or may not accept them.
5. Accepted voters go through the process of actually voting.
6. Repeat
The campaigning will happen anyway, though. I know I do it every period on IRC (especially when I know I'm going to be too lazy to vote) and the arguing in this topic serves as most of it. It's not a coincidence the debate normally heats up right before paragraphs are due, it's just a fact of life, I think. If people are so weak willed that they can't make up their own mind there is a fundamental problem with the process we aren't feasibly going to be able to fix. Everyone is probably influenced by something beyond their own experience, anyway...
1. The period starts, results of previous tests are announced, automatic suspects are mentioned, deviations are rolled back, etc.
2. Period ends. (Tomorrow, in this case)
3. Nominations begin. Voter or no (though I imagine you'd be a lot more convincing if you were...) people make cases for why Pokemon should or should not be suspects. Nominations may or may not be accepted.
3.5. I forget exactly when this normally happens, but qualifying accounts are posted for people to identify themselves for step 4.
4. Nominations end. "Paragraph" submitting starts for people who are eligible voters, where they send their paragraphs to Jabba and or reachzero who again may or may not accept them.
5. Accepted voters go through the process of actually voting.
6. Repeat
The campaigning will happen anyway, though. I know I do it every period on IRC (especially when I know I'm going to be too lazy to vote) and the arguing in this topic serves as most of it. It's not a coincidence the debate normally heats up right before paragraphs are due, it's just a fact of life, I think. If people are so weak willed that they can't make up their own mind there is a fundamental problem with the process we aren't feasibly going to be able to fix. Everyone is probably influenced by something beyond their own experience, anyway...
Exeggutor's HP Fire in the sun vs max/max + natured registeel (read none of them) (46.70% - 55.49%). Meaning it's a clean 2HKO no matter what. If he wastes a turn putting up rocks instead of paralyzing exegg, then its the rest of his team that suffers.
Common sun pokes:
Exegg
Jumpluff
Moltres
Typhlosion
Ninetails
Shiftlry
Ambipom (for reliable setup)
Of those, he can come in on precisely 3 without getting OHKO'd 2 if you include sleep, and 1 if you include him setting up on the switch in.
I had PM'd a mod these questions to prevent spamming up the thread, but he/she just logged off, so I'll ask again here.
Do we have to nominate a suspect in order to be considered an eligeble voter?
I'm assuming the paragraphs that we have to send to Jabba or reachzero are about why a suspect is UU or BL. Do we have to send a paragraph to be able to vote? If they don't accept our paragraphs, can we still vote?
Do we have to nominate a suspect in order to be considered an eligeble voter?
I'm assuming the paragraphs that we have to send to Jabba or reachzero are about why a suspect is UU or BL. Do we have to send a paragraph to be able to vote? If they don't accept our paragraphs, can we still vote?
In a perfect world, Exeggutor is going to HP Fire on the switch; but in a more realistic situation Registeel will switch into Solarbeam (1 turn), then take the HP Fire while it paralyzes you (2 turns) and finally set up SR as Eggy (maybe) kills Registeel (3 turns of sun passed). After that, virtually any poké comes in and murders Eggy, and that means in four turns of sun you were able to trade Eggy for Registeel and rocks on your side of the field, which backs up both my points that not only another sun setup will be needed, but that rocks are much harder to stop than by just using lead Ambipom.
I do have the feeling the purpose of this discussion is changing, turning this more into a discussion of whether sun is viable or not than if Shedinja is; so I digress.
um yes the point of paragraphs is that people who have no idea what they're talking about but have mustered up the required rating can't vote
there is a nomination period a few days from now that determines the suspects. you can check out the thread entitled "uu nominations (round 4)" in this forum for an idea of what that looks like. you don't need to nominate something to vote; i didn't last time and i still voted. a few days after the nomination thread closes, reachzero and jabba release a list of eligible voters -- if you're on this list and you want to vote, you have to write your own paragraphs up and send them to them. no paragraphs, no vote.
edit: didn't see teifu posted that information above (i remember reading a question about the process) but the point is your paragraphs have to be quite good otherwise you're not going to get to vote
My thoughts on a few Pokemon that definitely need more love and actually rock in this meta.
Persian-The Nasty Plot set is an absolute beast. I'm sure a few of the users around here have seen me use it. Swift + Water Pulse gets neutral coverage on everything in UU besides Shedinja. And with technician these get boosted to base 90 power. It can even deal with Chansey on its own. Just put it to sleep with Hypnosis (though its a bit shaky, most special sweepers would have to switch, while Persian actually has a chance to beat it on its own). Offensive teams have an easier time against it if they run something faster, which is limited to a few pokes considering Persian fantastic 115 base speed, or priority which Persian sadly can't take much of. However, it has the opportunity to run through balanced and stall, so I suggest people take a look at it.
Ninetails-Same boat as Persian but it has more viable sets as Persian only has two sets that aren't outclassed by Ambipom (those utilizing Hypnosis and Switcheroo). The first is the Nasty Plot set, which can even rip through teams with Intimidate Arcanine, Chansey, and Altaria. Switch in on a Fire move, Nasty Plot, put the counter to sleep with Hypnosis, and have a field day with Fire Blast/Energy Ball. Ninetails has bulk over Houndoom which allows it to survive non-CB Aqua Jet from Azu and random Mach Punches from things like Hitmonlee. It can also survive any 0SpA ev bulky Waters Surf, and 2HKO the most popular ones (Milotic/Slowbro, and heck Blastoise too). The other set I believe to be absolutely fucking awesome is the Grudge set. It works great as a support poke for sweepers that have a small list of counters. A stall team is usually only going to have Chansey as a counter to Raikou right? Just Substitute down (to avoid status) and Grudge it on the last Seismic Toss. No one ever expects it. Then go to Raikou, SubCM up and sweep the opponent. It works great against other pokemon too, especially if your main counter for something went down and you need some sort of backup. Did you mispredict and lose your Milotic so CBperior is gonna run through your team? Ninetails can Grudge it's Earthquake or Stone Edge which can ease prediction and help you switch-in something else against it without you losing another pokemon. Other uses are to Grudge things like Bulky Water's Surf so you can now run through the enemy team with Blaziken/Houndoom or whatever. It has great synergy with Pokemon who are weak to the same moves as it.
Jumpluff-I think it's been mentioned quite a bit already, but it's just too damn good. The ever awesome subseed paired with that speed and Encore? Yes please. SR is annoying but Leech Seed usually brings it back up. And the best thing is that it can Encore so many common things. SD Venusaur is fucked. Rhyperior spamming Earthquake is fucked. Nasty Plot Mismagius is fucked. Subpunchers are fucked. Most set up sweepers are fucked. The list goes on. Takes some good prediction but with SR/Spike support it can screw over a team all on its own. Dare I say it but Jumpluff may even be better then Lopunny at Encoring. I never thought i'd day it but I did.
Poliwrath-I'm sorry but I see most people using this thing wrong. Subpunch sets need speed ev's!! Don't just blindly max HP. I run 100 speed ev's which puts it at 201 which is enough to outrun 8 speed Milotic. I can actually switch into Milotics Surf and Encore it. Then set up a Sub. Most people will switch into Milotics Surf, get outsped the next turn and be hit with a Hidden Power Grass. This puts you at around 50% and you haven't even done anything to Milotic yet. Yes you can Focus Punch while Milotic breaks your sub but she has Recover and Poliwrath is just fighting a losing battle. Polwrath doesn't have trouble against Cress either. Just Encore the Psychic and switch to a counter. I use CBTomb so it pretty much screws Cress over.
Phew...Anyways that's it for now. May have others to add later (Subpunch LO Charizard rings a bell). But really people need to see passed the standards and notice that other pokes can be even more effective, and that they're just not gimmicks!
Persian-The Nasty Plot set is an absolute beast. I'm sure a few of the users around here have seen me use it. Swift + Water Pulse gets neutral coverage on everything in UU besides Shedinja. And with technician these get boosted to base 90 power. It can even deal with Chansey on its own. Just put it to sleep with Hypnosis (though its a bit shaky, most special sweepers would have to switch, while Persian actually has a chance to beat it on its own). Offensive teams have an easier time against it if they run something faster, which is limited to a few pokes considering Persian fantastic 115 base speed, or priority which Persian sadly can't take much of. However, it has the opportunity to run through balanced and stall, so I suggest people take a look at it.
Ninetails-Same boat as Persian but it has more viable sets as Persian only has two sets that aren't outclassed by Ambipom (those utilizing Hypnosis and Switcheroo). The first is the Nasty Plot set, which can even rip through teams with Intimidate Arcanine, Chansey, and Altaria. Switch in on a Fire move, Nasty Plot, put the counter to sleep with Hypnosis, and have a field day with Fire Blast/Energy Ball. Ninetails has bulk over Houndoom which allows it to survive non-CB Aqua Jet from Azu and random Mach Punches from things like Hitmonlee. It can also survive any 0SpA ev bulky Waters Surf, and 2HKO the most popular ones (Milotic/Slowbro, and heck Blastoise too). The other set I believe to be absolutely fucking awesome is the Grudge set. It works great as a support poke for sweepers that have a small list of counters. A stall team is usually only going to have Chansey as a counter to Raikou right? Just Substitute down (to avoid status) and Grudge it on the last Seismic Toss. No one ever expects it. Then go to Raikou, SubCM up and sweep the opponent. It works great against other pokemon too, especially if your main counter for something went down and you need some sort of backup. Did you mispredict and lose your Milotic so CBperior is gonna run through your team? Ninetails can Grudge it's Earthquake or Stone Edge which can ease prediction and help you switch-in something else against it without you losing another pokemon. Other uses are to Grudge things like Bulky Water's Surf so you can now run through the enemy team with Blaziken/Houndoom or whatever. It has great synergy with Pokemon who are weak to the same moves as it.
Jumpluff-I think it's been mentioned quite a bit already, but it's just too damn good. The ever awesome subseed paired with that speed and Encore? Yes please. SR is annoying but Leech Seed usually brings it back up. And the best thing is that it can Encore so many common things. SD Venusaur is fucked. Rhyperior spamming Earthquake is fucked. Nasty Plot Mismagius is fucked. Subpunchers are fucked. Most set up sweepers are fucked. The list goes on. Takes some good prediction but with SR/Spike support it can screw over a team all on its own. Dare I say it but Jumpluff may even be better then Lopunny at Encoring. I never thought i'd day it but I did.
Poliwrath-I'm sorry but I see most people using this thing wrong. Subpunch sets need speed ev's!! Don't just blindly max HP. I run 100 speed ev's which puts it at 201 which is enough to outrun 8 speed Milotic. I can actually switch into Milotics Surf and Encore it. Then set up a Sub. Most people will switch into Milotics Surf, get outsped the next turn and be hit with a Hidden Power Grass. This puts you at around 50% and you haven't even done anything to Milotic yet. Yes you can Focus Punch while Milotic breaks your sub but she has Recover and Poliwrath is just fighting a losing battle. Polwrath doesn't have trouble against Cress either. Just Encore the Psychic and switch to a counter. I use CBTomb so it pretty much screws Cress over.
Phew...Anyways that's it for now. May have others to add later (Subpunch LO Charizard rings a bell). But really people need to see passed the standards and notice that other pokes can be even more effective, and that they're just not gimmicks!
While some Pokemon have some sets that aren't gimmicks, that doesn't mean they aren't outclassed. Persian and Ninetales Nasty Plot sets are outclassed by Mismagius and Porygon-Z. Jumpluff is outclassed by Sceptile, although Jumpluff does get Encore.
Anyway, I just finished my suspect paragraphs on Raikou and Porygon-z. Although, they are much too long to be called paragraphs, but I doubt there is a size limit.
Anyway, I just finished my suspect paragraphs on Raikou and Porygon-z. Although, they are much too long to be called paragraphs, but I doubt there is a size limit.
You can't really say a poké completely outclasses the other. Ninetales has Hypnosis, and an arguably better ability (than Missy, but that goes down to preference), and Persian has his own trumps too (Hypnosis again). Surely they are not better than the last two, but have their niches.
Regarding Sceppy, Jumpluff has Encore, Sleep Powder, Flying-type for Ground immunity and U-turn among others; so yeah, not outclassed as a staller.
Regarding Sceppy, Jumpluff has Encore, Sleep Powder, Flying-type for Ground immunity and U-turn among others; so yeah, not outclassed as a staller.
There are very few Pokemon who are 100% completely outclassed by another. Feraligatr has Swords Dance and Aqua Jet over Gyarados, Dragonite has Extremespeed and Superpower over Salamence, Quagsire has Recover over Swampert, etc. But in general, these Pokemon are outclassed. Mismagius outclasses Persian and Ninetales in the category of Nasty Plot sweeper. That was all that I was saying.
"but that goes down to preference" should have made it clear enough.
Apples to oranges. They do different things, therefore they can't truly be "outclassed". Missy is "better" at Nasty Plot sweeping, but there are still elements that make Persian and Ninetales viable choices over Missy.
Exactly. Not to mention in Persian's case it actually has unpredictability. While everyone is pretty much going to assume Missy is Subplot if it isn't on a stall team.
Ninetales Fire Blast is stronger than Mismagius Shadow Ball. Without the Flash Fire boost. With the boost, it's even stronger.
Ninetales has Hypnosis.
Ninetales isn't outclassed. It's just different. Unless you compare it to Houndoom...
You can say "Dugtrio easily revenges it"... but Mismagius is Pursuit weak. It means that if you have a Skuntank or something, you don't even need to revenge t. Just switch it and Pursuit the hell out of Mismagius.
Persian isn't really strong... but it's fast. Since there's no Crobat in UU, Persian is the fastest NP user in UU(togehter with Ambipom... but Persian hits a little harder).
Among other things.
About Charizard... well, try a SubPetaya set on the sun. I assure you: even Chansey takes huge amounts of damage. And it OHKO things like Moltres and DD Altaria...
Charizard Fire Blast under the sun, Blaze and Petaya activated:
0/252 Chansey:69.4% - 81.9%
248/0 Moltres:95.6% - 112.8%
72/0 Altaria:99% - 116.8%
252/0 Cresselia:114.9% - 135.4%
252/0 Slowbro:97.2% - 114.5%
80/0 Hariyama:107.8% - 126.9%
80/252 Hariyama:70.2% - 82.9%
You can see that i did calcs on things that resists Fire Blast or are really bulky(Chansey and Cresselia). For a "+1" attack, the calcs are quite impressive, huh?
Ninetales has Hypnosis.
Ninetales isn't outclassed. It's just different. Unless you compare it to Houndoom...
You can say "Dugtrio easily revenges it"... but Mismagius is Pursuit weak. It means that if you have a Skuntank or something, you don't even need to revenge t. Just switch it and Pursuit the hell out of Mismagius.
Persian isn't really strong... but it's fast. Since there's no Crobat in UU, Persian is the fastest NP user in UU(togehter with Ambipom... but Persian hits a little harder).
Among other things.
About Charizard... well, try a SubPetaya set on the sun. I assure you: even Chansey takes huge amounts of damage. And it OHKO things like Moltres and DD Altaria...
Charizard Fire Blast under the sun, Blaze and Petaya activated:
0/252 Chansey:69.4% - 81.9%
248/0 Moltres:95.6% - 112.8%
72/0 Altaria:99% - 116.8%
252/0 Cresselia:114.9% - 135.4%
252/0 Slowbro:97.2% - 114.5%
80/0 Hariyama:107.8% - 126.9%
80/252 Hariyama:70.2% - 82.9%
You can see that i did calcs on things that resists Fire Blast or are really bulky(Chansey and Cresselia). For a "+1" attack, the calcs are quite impressive, huh?
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