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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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Typhlosion is in no way comperable to Moltres. Moltres sits there and incinerates things, then when it gets hit it goes "Screw you, I'm a giant flaming bird" and roosts. Typhlosion breaks walls and attempts to sweep, but can't take hits, and if it loses more than about 20% of its health, it can no longer sweep with Eruption. If you can get it in against a team whose fire resists and priority users are gone, it dominates. But it dominates in the same fragile way that a Head Smash Rampardos would, especially because both pokes really need a choice item to do their job. Rampardos needs a scarf, and Typhlosion dominates with a scarf and can rip slower teams a new one with specs.
It's a Pseudo Boltbeam combo, employing HP Ice I believe. Anyway, you forgot to mention another STAB (Air Slash), the fact it can actually survive a hit (Azumarill's CB Aqua Jet doesn't KO Moltres, but must KO Magmortar 2 times and half [yes, I'm exaggerating, but you guys get the point]) and the usefulness of Roost and that Flying-type isn't something bad; as it gives Moltres an easy switch-in against non Stone Edge Steelix, Donphan and Hitmontop.
There might be more, but my point is: I don't think they're comparable as they play different roles. What I do agree, though, is that Magmortar shouldn't be NU with such good stats and movepool.
Edit: Beaten by Heysup it seems, lol.
And that's why it works best as a Scarf lead.
"You have a tendency to give one sided arguments"
The amount of irony here is enough to show up on seismographs.
"Do you not realize how valuable those defenses are for taking priority attacks and switching in?"
Do you realize how little that matters when you lose 50% of your health when you switch in? And Roost is basically giving up a turn so you can not die the next time you switch in. Magmortar can just start firing off attacks.
Second, Moltres' flying type comes with a nice weakness to Thunderbolt (the second most common attack in the game), the aforementioned quad weakness to SR, and a loss of resistance to Ice (a very common attacking type). Resiting priority is nice, but resisting ice beam and actually being able to switch in on electric attacks is nicer. Note that Raikou can't set up on Magmortar; Magmortar doesn't instantly die to Thunderbolt, and does massive damage back with Fire Blast. Moltres can't claim that.
Air Slash is only ever good for taking out Hariyama (Fire Blast does nearly as much damage to Hitmontop). And instead of being walled by Hariyama, you're walled by Altaria, which isn't much better at all.
Pressure beats Cresselia? On an OFFENSIVE set? Really? You know that Cresselia is just going to CM -> Moonlight stall you, yes? It still gets 4 Moonlights even with Pressure, which is enough to set up to +2 or +3, at which point Moltres is taking so much damage from Life Orb and Psychic that it'll die. Unless Moltres is a subtoxic variant, it is going to lose. Granted, Magmortar isn't getting past Cresselia any time soon either, but don't count that as an advantage for Moltres. Flame Body is just much better. It gives you a 30% chance of completely crippling a physical attacker or greatly inconviniencing a mixed attacker. Much better than making things lose PP, as anything willing to get into a protracted war with Moltres is going to win, PP loss or no.
And I like how you completely ignored Focus Blast and Cross Chop, i.e. the ability to get past Chansey. Because that's not important at all.
The amount of irony here is enough to show up on seismographs.
"Do you not realize how valuable those defenses are for taking priority attacks and switching in?"
Do you realize how little that matters when you lose 50% of your health when you switch in? And Roost is basically giving up a turn so you can not die the next time you switch in. Magmortar can just start firing off attacks.
Second, Moltres' flying type comes with a nice weakness to Thunderbolt (the second most common attack in the game), the aforementioned quad weakness to SR, and a loss of resistance to Ice (a very common attacking type). Resiting priority is nice, but resisting ice beam and actually being able to switch in on electric attacks is nicer. Note that Raikou can't set up on Magmortar; Magmortar doesn't instantly die to Thunderbolt, and does massive damage back with Fire Blast. Moltres can't claim that.
Air Slash is only ever good for taking out Hariyama (Fire Blast does nearly as much damage to Hitmontop). And instead of being walled by Hariyama, you're walled by Altaria, which isn't much better at all.
Pressure beats Cresselia? On an OFFENSIVE set? Really? You know that Cresselia is just going to CM -> Moonlight stall you, yes? It still gets 4 Moonlights even with Pressure, which is enough to set up to +2 or +3, at which point Moltres is taking so much damage from Life Orb and Psychic that it'll die. Unless Moltres is a subtoxic variant, it is going to lose. Granted, Magmortar isn't getting past Cresselia any time soon either, but don't count that as an advantage for Moltres. Flame Body is just much better. It gives you a 30% chance of completely crippling a physical attacker or greatly inconviniencing a mixed attacker. Much better than making things lose PP, as anything willing to get into a protracted war with Moltres is going to win, PP loss or no.
And I like how you completely ignored Focus Blast and Cross Chop, i.e. the ability to get past Chansey. Because that's not important at all.
Well, just adding to say Moonlight's PP isn't eaten by Pressure IIRC, so yeah, Cresselia beats Moltres, and that's something I didn't understand. Anyways, I back up my point that they aren't comparable, as they do different things, as even though Tbolt is very common, so are Earthquake, Close Combat, Sucker Punch and such. I do feel more confortable when I'm using Moltres, but I'm biased because I haven't given Mortar much of a chance outside of joke teams.
Summing it up, classic personal preference case.
Summing it up, classic personal preference case.
It's pretty disappointing because the scarf-lead isn't even that great. :(
I've had a good amount of success keeping it in reserve on my Sunny Day team. Most of the time, I can Taunt away entry hazards and start up the offense, at which point it would be a bit silly for my opponent to stop and set up rocks. It does happen sometimes, of course, but most of the time, Typhlosion's free to fire off full-powered Eruptions in late game. Overheat and Solarbeam help it do so at low health as well.
Sorry, but that's just what you were doing (for this and Rain). I didn't to mean to sound pissy.
It can switch in, take a hit from whatever it switches into (otherwise KO it if it isn't Chansey or Azumarill) and 9/10 times beat that Pokemon.
Magmortar can switch in 3 times at best. Moltres lasts the whole match with Roost. This all boils down to the main point: Moltres can switch into things and Magmortar simply cannot switch in. It has no EQ immunity, shitty defenses, and shitty defensive typing.
You are also clearly ignoring the full effectiveness and utility of Roost. Roost allows Moltres to:
1. Switch in and indefinite amount of times
2. Beat Pokemon such as Absol with Sucker Punch
3. Beat Pokemon such as Arcanine who cannot 2HKO Moltres (A surprising amount of Pokemon fall into this catagory)
4. Remove its weaknesses to Thunderbolt. It also resists Ice, and only takes x2 from Rock-type attacks
These are ALL important aspects of Roost. Magmortar gets forced out 3 times and it is useless. Moltres can keep switching in and often lasts until the match is over.
FlareBlitz said:
Good luck with Fire Blast against Raikou. It has this ability called Pressure which will make you wish you used Flamethrower except not really because you will let it set up unbreakable subs. Neither Pokemon can actually beat Raikou reliably, however Moltres can at least Fire Blast it the full amount of times. So yea, this is a flimsy argument at best.
Additionally, I would trade immunity to ground and resistance to Fighting over anything you just listed any day.
Flare Blitz said:
See this is what I was saying before: one sided arguments; Altaria is going to do what to Moltres? Hit it with Dragon Claw? OUCH! Roost and win, simple as that.
Also:
Fire Blast vs Hitmontop: 82.2% - 97%
Air Slash vs Hitmontop: 103.3% - 122.4%
This matters whether you say so or not. This is what I was saying about Moltres stopping Rapid Spin earlier. Even with 1 layer of Spikes, you're not going to be taking Hitmontop out often with Fire Blast.
FlareBlitz said:
I actually didn't know that, so Cress is a bad example.
While I won't argue that Flame Body is bad, because it isn't, but Magmortar simply cannot take advantage of it the same way Moltres can take advantage of Pressure against various Pokemon who can't 2HKO Moltres. Magmortar is absolutely going to be OHKOed by any physical attack.
While Flame Body is a better ability, Moltres will be more useful with Pressure almost every time.
FlareBlitz said:
Focus Blast is really not worth it but Cross Chop is good but it still does not make up for the main reason Magmortar is not as good as Moltres:
Magmortar cannot switch into anything. This is why Blaziken is used less than Moltres even though it outright 2HKOes the whole metagame with one set. This is why Houndoom is used less then Moltres despite the ability to rape Cresselia.
Oh right, I can't believe I forgot this: Dugtrio. Magmortar is clearly not going to run Shed Shell and lose KOes, and Dugtrio is definitely common enough to make someone nervous using Magmortar.
At the end of the day, what really matters is shown by the numbers, people realize that Moltres is better than Magmortar even if they don't know why. This is why Moltres is borderline suspect status and Magmortar is NU. Theorymon can only do so much for Magmortar when you actually legitimately test them both.
I just want to reiterate: I do not think Moltres is broken, I just believe it is far better (and different) than Magmortar and that it wasn't a fair comparison.
I don't believe Moltres is broken at all. With easy checks in the form of Chansey, Milotic, (insert specially-bulky water here), etc., it's only the easy Spikes that make it hard to deal with. Once Froslass is gone, we can use faster Taunters to shut down Omastar and Cloyster (the weird part is that Ambipom already outspeeds Froslass).
Oh and just a random question. Do you guys think it's better to run Naive on Nidoking instead of Rash to outspeed positive nature base 80s?
Oh and just a random question. Do you guys think it's better to run Naive on Nidoking instead of Rash to outspeed positive nature base 80s?
+ speed nature definitely and Moltres is broken with spikes support no question about it
I don't know where people are getting that Offensive Moltres can 2HKO Chansey with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes up. He can't. Libelldra's calculator says:
383 Atk vs 339 Def & 642 HP (120 Base Power): 189 - 223 (29.44% - 34.74%), Life Orb factored in.
Even IF you have 2 layers of Spikes and Stealth Rock up (Again, not my idea of little to no support), you aren't going to 2HKO Chansey with Leftovers, and even if you have 3 layers up (Which is getting quite ridiculous), you're going to have to roll out close to maximum damage both turns, and that is presuming Chansey isn't running Wish, which means if it is, you're still not going to 2HKO (Want to add Toxic Spikes on top of that anyone).
Stalling Moltres, however, is a different story, and can beat Chansey if you play your cards right. However, it's not AS threatening as the offensive set, so other Pokemon can handle him.
383 Atk vs 339 Def & 642 HP (120 Base Power): 189 - 223 (29.44% - 34.74%), Life Orb factored in.
Even IF you have 2 layers of Spikes and Stealth Rock up (Again, not my idea of little to no support), you aren't going to 2HKO Chansey with Leftovers, and even if you have 3 layers up (Which is getting quite ridiculous), you're going to have to roll out close to maximum damage both turns, and that is presuming Chansey isn't running Wish, which means if it is, you're still not going to 2HKO (Want to add Toxic Spikes on top of that anyone).
Stalling Moltres, however, is a different story, and can beat Chansey if you play your cards right. However, it's not AS threatening as the offensive set, so other Pokemon can handle him.
Who's to say Chansey hasn't taken any prior damage?
Are you fucking serious?? A Pokemon is broken because it can kill after prior damage?? Why don't we deem Magikarp broken because it can OHKO something that survived due to Focus Sash with Tackle (I've done it before, Magikarp revenged a 1 HP Darkrai) instead??
Cause that works both ways and won't necessarily be the case--Chansey won't always have prior damage when it comes in (and the times it does, you may not have Spikes or SR on the field, so it may not matter anyway. You can't just assume residual damage+Spikes+SR. Sometimes you have one or two of them, but very rarely will you have them all, and if you do get them all frequently, then it's probably whatever is letting you get all those entry hazards up so easily that's broken). And in any case, that's just normal strategy (weakening the opponent's walls with some weak attacks, and then finishing them off and sweeping with a powerful sweeper) in that case and has nothing to do with Moltres itself specifically being broken.
Honestly what are the odd's that Chansey hasn't taken and prior damage. When I'm playing stall Chansey comes in and out the most and is usually below 80% and I think that is in K.O range with SR down (and maybe a layer of spikes)
lol.
Anyways, I love how everyone right now is stating how obvious it is that Froslass is the culprit when it's just as easy to get up Spikes without her. Actually, i'd say through my experiences that Omastar and Cloyster are much better because people don't over prepare for them at all. If Froslass is banned and Moltres isn't, I bet it's gonna be a suspect again next time. It has way too limited counters. Unreliable at best.
I think the idea here is that Froslass more reliably provides Spikes against teams that use spinners. I certainly agree with you that many other Spikers set up just as well (Qwilfish especially in the case of Moltres, who gets easy Spikes on almost all of Moltres' common counters / checks), but there is no overlap in who is providing the support and who is preventing the removal of said support. At least Froslass does something to prevent her setup from being removed (though defensive Qwilfish can also stall out Hitmontop and Blastoise to their deaths, but that's besides the point). Just a guess though, I'm not on either side of this debate.
People just use Frosslass as a example I guess, and the fact that it is one of the most common leads, fast and a good description of a suicide lead (lol).
Read the bolded part...
This means that not Moltres is broken, but teh spikes are >.<
Actually that is a logical fallacy. The quote from Golden Sun says nothing about either element; logically either, neither or both could be broken when divorced from the other element. Whether or not spikes or moltres are broken cannot be deduced by observing that they are broken together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Golden Sun
+ speed nature definitely and Moltres is broken with spikes support no question about it
Read the bolded part...
This means that not Moltres is broken, but teh spikes are >.<
I think people need to explore which of the components is actually broken
by answering the questions; to what extent does spikes break other pokemon, not including Moltres (if it is only Moltres that is being broken by spikes, then surely it is Moltres that needs to go)? Even without spikes, is Moltres broken (as Thund seems to think, quoted below)?
I dont think either of these questions have been addressed in enough depth in the nomination process.
Some quotes to stimulate debate. (i am on neither side of the debate)
EDIT:
I suppose that is what i am trying to say.
I was gonna post a bunch of statistics to show Chansey can comfortably wall all Moltres sets except for the Staller, which is very rare. Then I looked for other checks. The damage calculations said nothing can wall Moltres except Chansey.
Although it can be revenge killed easily due to its low speed. And it might not be able to OHKO some things that can OHKO back. To the damage calculator!
EDIT: Well, the damage calculator didn't help much. Choice Band Donphan isn't OHKO'd, but Stone Edge can miss and who the hell runs CB Donphan? Rhyperior in Sandstorm has a miniscule chance to be OHKO'd, but once again, Stone Edge can miss and Sandstorm is quite rare in UU. Regirock does a pretty good job, with a small chance of being 2HKO'd and actually uses the more accurate Rock Slide. And all these calculations were done with Modest, so Timid Moltres cannot OHKO Rhyperior in Sandstorm or 2HKO Regirock.
And I am eagerly awaiting the nomination results so I can finally send in my paragraphs.
Although it can be revenge killed easily due to its low speed. And it might not be able to OHKO some things that can OHKO back. To the damage calculator!
EDIT: Well, the damage calculator didn't help much. Choice Band Donphan isn't OHKO'd, but Stone Edge can miss and who the hell runs CB Donphan? Rhyperior in Sandstorm has a miniscule chance to be OHKO'd, but once again, Stone Edge can miss and Sandstorm is quite rare in UU. Regirock does a pretty good job, with a small chance of being 2HKO'd and actually uses the more accurate Rock Slide. And all these calculations were done with Modest, so Timid Moltres cannot OHKO Rhyperior in Sandstorm or 2HKO Regirock.
And I am eagerly awaiting the nomination results so I can finally send in my paragraphs.
One thing I'm wondering as I stare at the suspects' list... Why didn't the hundreds people that claim Froslass broken nominate it...? (I do know I myself didn't, but that's because as of lately I have doubts regarding her tiering status. Also, this isn't an ironical question that deems Froslass UU).
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