np: UU - Here It Goes Again

[BurtonEarny]

sp ludi cant beat chansey w/o focus punching on the switch or a predicted wish/ softboiled and its not even a guaranteed move that its packing.
the physical variant seems more of a threat as its counters are a bit more obscure(something like Tangrowth) in the rain simply due to typing as he is outclassed in base attack by other sweepers.
He is alright however, I dont mean to make him sound like garbage when he isn't. He just isnt the uncounterable threat that you make him seem.

 

[WJC3688]

UU has way, way too much priority for me to consider Ludicolo as a notable threat. Guys like Techtop and Absol can priority him to death when he's around 75% health, giving alot of offensive teams a solid response to it. Stall teams can just bring in Chansey and Seismic Toss to block Focus Punch. I agree that he's good, but he doesn't really stand out compared to other sweepers like Yanmega and Absol.

 

[Heysup]

Reasons Ludicolo isn't "that" good:

-TechniTop
-Absol
-Yanmega (assuming boosts)
-Chansey
-Registeel
-Roserade

There is much more, but that's a start. It is simply stopped cold by all of those things.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

sp ludi cant beat chansey w/o focus punching on the switch or a predicted wish/ softboiled and its not even a guaranteed move that its packing.
the physical variant seems more of a threat as its counters are a bit more obscure(something like Tangrowth) in the rain simply due to typing as he is outclassed in base attack by other sweepers.
He is alright however, I dont mean to make him sound like garbage when he isn't. He just isnt the uncounterable threat that you make him seem.

I'm WAY more scared of SD Kabutops or Qwilfish than Ludicolo mainly because they have actual base speed. Kabutops also has Aqua Jet, while Qwilfish's Explosion is scary as hell as well.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I'm WAY more scared of SD Kabutops or Qwilfish than Ludicolo mainly because they have actual base speed. Kabutops also has Aqua Jet, while Qwilfish's Explosion is scary as hell as well.

I just said that.
He has better typing to take toxicroaks vacuum wave than Kabutops and gains some useful switchins due to its typing, but its outclassed in physical power... Did I not say it clearly?

 

[WJC3688]

Except that they are able to stall out the rain in the process, which is still a winning deal for the non-rain team. Leech Seed is also causing you to lose valuable coverage against something else.

 

[Iris]

on Ludicolo, ive tested waterfall and Surf and it 2hko's Chansey (252 def Calm ones) with SR and you don't have to worry about Seismic Toss ruining a charging attack. It loses heavily to registeel though, but it gives omastar and gorebyss better opportunities. Also to a lesser extent, SD could be used but its outclassed.

 

[Aerouille]

The whole point of FP on Ludi is to stop Chansey/Clefable/Umbreon from spamming healing moves to waste your rain while Ludi surfs and kills himself with life orb. If you seismic toss in case a focus punch is going to come then you can easily just get surfed in the face for 40-50% instead~

 

[lati0s]

Firstly there is no such thing as a completely objective reason in pokemon, there is only subjective and more subjective.

Currently the least subjective reasoning we know of are the offensive defensive and support qualities. These are the qualities that voters should base thier decisions on. please tell me what playing in a metagame with the suspects removed can possibly tell about these characteristics that playing with the suspects could not tell you.

can someone please answer this, I really want to know.

 

[Stagnant]

@latios

Go down to your (Grand)Mother's kitchen and grab a bottle that says Vanilla Extract.

Smell it. (It smells wonderful).

Now you can taste it or put it away.

If you taste it you will now know more than what you did by just smelling it.

If you simply put it away after smelling it then you truly haven't experienced the entire product at it's "fullest".

<><><><><><><><><><><>

So.. simply put I simply think this part of the process is for that you don't really know how much the suspects limit the metagame until you give the retrained pokemon and counters their chance to shine.

 

[Peachfuzz]

Weezing is an incredibly valuable pokemon that should be used more, with its ability to take on all the fighters that have finally come out to play as well as RP Torterra, Rhydon, Nidoking, and Azumarill. Only a couple of UU's physical attackers such as Absol and Swellow are able to break through with physical attacks. Paired with a Wish Chansey to lure fighters and make up for it's lack of reliable recovery make the two a good defensive combo for any team.

I'm having a lot of trouble breaking Milotic now. Only Roserade Leaf Storms can KO it easily now. The rare Lanturn can switch in consistently and take it on. Physical Venusaur is a fun way of taking it on. The increased variability of its sets, from Life Orb sweeper to super defensive, make it one of the best pokes of UU now. Haze and Toxic also ensure that it is not set up on by Calm Minders.

 

[A.P.]

I don't know if Swellow can beat Weezing; in my experience, Facade is a 2HKO (haven't seen one in a while), while Thunderbolt is a OHKO.

If anything, Milotic has become easier for me to counter - SR wears it down, and my Azumarill can easily lure it to its death with a Double-Edge, as HP Electric only does ~55%. Defensive versions are torn to shreds by Roserade.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I don't know if Swellow can beat Weezing; in my experience, Facade is a 2HKO (haven't seen one in a while), while Thunderbolt is a OHKO.

If anything, Milotic has become easier for me to counter - SR wears it down, and my Azumarill can easily lure it to its death with a Double-Edge, as HP Electric only does ~55%. Defensive versions are torn to shreds by Roserade.

That assumes the player is counting on Milotic to counter both Azumarill AND Roserade which is obviously ridiculous. When I use Milotic it is never my first switch into Azu, and why would a Milotic ever switch into a Roserade? I agree Haze Milotic is phenominal right now. You can ev it to outspeed to slow Blaziken. It can beat CM missy and Crotomb as well as the occasional Slowbro. (Ive never really tried to fight espy jump but I have to guess it would work) DD Feraligatr and the list goes on. I use it and love it.

 

[Thund91]

Haze should definately be standard on defensive Milotic, especially since Hypnosis' accuracy dropped.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Weezing definitely is great at physical walling nowadays, beating the increased likes of Primeape and Hitmonlee, Rhydon, Scyther ect. Too bad it can't really take a Fire Blast from MixKen

 

[Heysup]

I love going against teams with Milotic. It gives my Life Orb Roserade a free switch-in, and basically nothing other than Registeel can switch into Roserade.

 

[A.P.]

Oh god. Basically every team now runs Registeel and Slowbro/Milotic, even offensive ones. Roserade and Spiritomb are also gallavanting the place, while Blaziken is nearly nonexistent, although slowly gaining. Roserade is awful, Scarf Sludge Bomb wrecks late-game.

 

[lati0s]

@latios

Go down to your (Grand)Mother's kitchen and grab a bottle that says Vanilla Extract.

Smell it. (It smells wonderful).

Now you can taste it or put it away.

If you taste it you will now know more than what you did by just smelling it.

If you simply put it away after smelling it then you truly haven't experienced the entire product at it's "fullest".

<><><><><><><><><><><>

So.. simply put I simply think this part of the process is for that you don't really know how much the suspects limit the metagame until you give the retrained pokemon and counters their chance to shine.

I don't think you understand the reason why we ban pokemon, we don't ban pokemon because we like the metagame better without them, we don't ban pokemon because they limit diversity, and we don't ban pokemon so that other pokemon can shine.

We ban pokemon if and only if they are broken. brokenness is determined by the offensive, defensive, and support characteristics, and playing in a metagame with the suspects removed tells you Nothing about these characteristics.

 

[franky]

I don't know if Swellow can beat Weezing; in my experience, Facade is a 2HKO (haven't seen one in a while), while Thunderbolt is a OHKO.

You won't Facade knowing its a 2HKO at full health, unless your a suicidal type of player. I would U-Turn to someone who can take Thunderbolt.

 

[Peachfuzz]

Blaziken is everywhere in my experience.

It's interesting how many of the pokemon you listed can work very well on both offensive and defensive teams. Registeel/Steelix is obvious on defensive team, but both fit perfectly well on offensive teams as a Yanmega/Ambipom check, Stealth Rocker, and a quick Explosion for water types. Milotic is awesome with both the defensive and Life Orb sets. Slowbro is an excellent wall paired with Registeel and/or Altaria on stall teams, or can form a good defensive core on offensive teams. Roserade is a great Spiker on stall teams, or a Scarfer or horrifyingly powerful Life Orb attacker. Just shows how versatile some UU pokes are.

So far nothing seems to fit the characteristics for BL status. The metagame is much more enjoyable without Crobat and Shaymin. I would bring back Honchkrow though. Honchkrow was never too big of a problem. If anything, Blaziken is a much better wall breaker/sweeper with better STABs and lack of a SR weakness, and most people haven't said a word about sending it to BL.

 

[A.P.]

Out of the three, I want Honchkrow back. The metagame would be a lot better with it around, in my opinion.

 

[Tint]

I agree with Latios.
We can only ban things based on brokeness, as determined by the offensive, defensive, and support characteristics. What does a metagame without these pokemon show us? And how does it show us which pokemon are broken? Someone please answer this.

 

[Erazor]

We get to see the potential of many pokemon that were otherwise hindered by the presence of the suspects, like Ambipom. Also, in the longer run, it helps to determine the status of a suspect without the presence of the other suspects(like Crobat).

 

[MegaKick]

Okay, I tried a team with three fighting types to see if the removal of crobat made them better. Unfortanetly, except for blazikens fir blast, every fighting type is walled by tangrowth, even toxicroak's poisen jab and hitmonlee's blaze kick barely muster a 4hko while he can knock off, sleep powder, synthesis, and power whip me to death.

 

[Caelum]

I agree with Latios.
We can only ban things based on brokeness, as determined by the offensive, defensive, and support characteristics. What does a metagame without these pokemon show us? And how does it show us which pokemon are broken? Someone please answer this.

I don't think you understand the reason why we ban pokemon, we don't ban pokemon because we like the metagame better without them, we don't ban pokemon because they limit diversity, and we don't ban pokemon so that other pokemon can shine.

We ban pokemon if and only if they are broken. brokenness is determined by the offensive, defensive, and support characteristics, and playing in a metagame with the suspects removed tells you Nothing about these characteristics.

Besides the fact that anything even remotely controversially is going to be reintroduced and reexamined over the course of the summer in a method similar to the way the OU suspects are done. This is more like creating a prototype BL list and then determining the ones that need more careful examination over the summer.

There are a few different reasons for it to be removed. As Erazor pointed out, it lets other Pokemon come to the forefront and demonstrate themselves as being potential broken. For example, without the suspects removed Shaymin wasn't widely considered a huge threat - but that has changed. With regards to the characteristics, you are suppose to use your experiences before and after the removal of suspects. Do you recall in the early suspect tests when there were requirements on both ladders? This is similar. We've experienced metagames without Latios, Latias, and Manaphy for months; the same can't be said of this UU metagame. If you have no comparative background to see what a potentially non-broken metagame looks like - how can you determine what is broken in that tier? You need a frame of reference and that is what this builds.