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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

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I've never had any problems with Froslass if I run an antilead. Ambipom can do a fast Taunt, and something like Sharpedo can 2HKO with priority, leaving a single layer, and a bulky spinner like Donphan can get rid of the single layer with ease. So how is it that people use Froslass so effectively? I've never seen Froslass as free spikes for my opponent so much as a free kill for me (I'm being genuinely curious here).

Well, if you run a lead molded to beat Froslass, of course you're going to have little trouble with it. Froslass will fare better against certain leads (i.e. Omastar) and worse against others (aforementioned Ambipom), and its (Spikes') success can depend on the amount of team support it receives (i.e. spin blockers, offensive playstyle to prevent spinning). Match-ups aside, Froslass's success also depends on how well the user predicts their opponent's moves. Will Uxie Thunder Wave or U-Turn, and therefore, should Froslass Taunt or Spike? Agreeing with the previous posters, though, leads in general seem to have adapted to beat Froslass.
 
Most teams with Froslass use Froslass as their spin-blocker and so won't have another Ghost. And prediction is pretty much just luck in the beginning of the match, since you will have no way of knowing whether your opponent is conservative, reckless, an idiot, etc.
 
Froslass is best used [imo] as regular pokemon and not as a lead. {it is far too valuable}

Uxie/Kabutops etc make br-etter leads.
 
Hmm. Nothing interesting is happening but I AM spending my free time trying to make a UU-worthy Typhlosion team.

It's tough though. Any suggestion guys?
 
Use Sunny Day and put specs on him. Drifblim for massive subs if that tickles your fancy, and maybe a Wishpassing Umbreon to keep Eruption powerful.

But, yeah, Specs Typhlosion in the sun 2HKO's Chansey and OHKO's Rhyperior with Eruption. It's just that awesome.
 
Use Sunny Day and put specs on him. Drifblim for massive subs if that tickles your fancy, and maybe a Wishpassing Umbreon to keep Eruption powerful.

But, yeah, Specs Typhlosion in the sun 2HKO's Chansey and OHKO's Rhyperior with Eruption. It's just that awesome.

I was actually hoping to use him OUTSIDE of Sun.

I'm not a fan of weather teams...
 
Looking at every move Typhlosion has to offer:

You're willing to use Counter? NO? Thought so....

Maybe you can use the Subpetaya set. It's powerful, i tell you.

But if you're willing to use Eruption... well, decide if you need a revenge killer or a strong attacker(Scarf or Specs). Spinning rocks away is a need.
Slapping a poke that laughs at bulky waters (Venusaur or Torterra are your best choices... mainly Torterra who can also KO many Fire pokes with EQ) also helps.
 
Ok this metagame is making me like UU again, my only complaint however is Froslass. It is pretty much the only thing making anything else broken (outside of rain maybe. I'm on the fence about it, but that doesn't even matter, since apparently only 1/3 of people think its broken [or something like that]). In addition to making stuff like Moltres very difficult to handle, spikestacking is just a really annoying and limiting strategy. I'm using it, of course, but only to perhaps convince people that Froslass really is broken!

Also does Froslass have to have 'special conditions' like Raikou in order to be banned next time?
 
I would assume not, since she has only been voted UU once (due to not being nominated the second time). I have no proof though, just a guess.
 
If we want Froslass gone, everyone and their mother needs to have it nominated, and subsequently vote on it. The problem is, no one's been following through. Spikes do have a profound impact on the UU metagame, but I don't think anyone cares enough to have it banned. My opinion on Froslass tends to waver, so we'll have to see when the time comes.
 
I really don't like Froslass. I'd like to see it get banned. But I really don't think it's broken, unless we come up with an Annoying Characteristic.
 
Froslass is annoying, but it's probably one of those Pokemon like Jirachi or Togekiss who won't end up banned even though it just makes the game "not fun".

Anyway, I've been playing around on the ladder and using some sets that are quite under-utilised in my opinion. They are actually pretty fun to use as well. So far, I've been messing around with some of my alts with the following Pokemon:

Specs Milotic: Most Milotic I see running around are defensive (Probably >95% I see) and the remainder are LO Milotic. Since people are using LO, why not try Specs?? Specs Milotic's Hydro Pump is as powerful as Shaymin's Seed Flare, albeit without the broken side effect. Add Ice Beam and HP Grass on that and you have a powerful hitter. Another thing I notice is the number of Modest Moltres running around, which makes Milo's job very easy, as she would just outspeed and OHKO with Surf or something. Basically, think of a slightly weaker Specs Gorebyss who isn't dead weight when it's not raining. It has fitted very well on my Choiced Offense team.

Specs Electrode: I love Choice users. Basically Specs Electrode works like SpecsJolt. Base 80 Special Attack is quite usable, and Electrode has such good speed. Thunderbolt/HP Grass/Signal Beam/Explosion is good enough of a movepool to abuse Specs (Explosion is purely for Chansey, and to remove annoying fuckers like Raikou if you really need to). The cool thing is when people see Electrode they go "OMFG RAIN TEAM". Nope, not really.

SubPunch Lickilicky: A UU Tyraniboah. I haven't tested this extensively, but if I tweak his EVs a bit, he might work out pretty well.
 
Also does Froslass have to have 'special conditions' like Raikou in order to be banned next time?

I think this "special circumstances" thing is being taken waaaaaay to literally / seriously. Just remember: If a Pokemon is broken and you can make a case for it, do it. Its history of nominations / votes should really hold no weight in this. Only reasoning (if still applicable) should.

I don't think Jabba means to suggest that something "special" has to happen to Raikou for it to be nominated again because the fact that this is a new metagame is essentially a change in circumstances. I don't know for sure though, just my assumption.
 
SubPunch Lickilicky: A UU Tyraniboah. I haven't tested this extensively, but if I tweak his EVs a bit, he might work out pretty well.

I like this idea. If you manage to have a Pursuiter a set with Sub/FP/Return/Explosion could be pretty deadly because Focus Punch deals with steels and you can take out another poke with a STAB Explosion, creating a big hole in teams.
 
Return isn't going to do shit for you coverage wise and Lickilicky has an awesome movepool, so literally anything else could work in that slot.

I actually wouldn't advise a subpunching set at all, simply because there are way too many UUs that do it better. That mixed wall breaker set on the Smogon set looks tempting, but I honestly don't see the merit in that over something like Blaziken besides Explosion.

If you want to get some good use out of Lickilicky, you should run a Curse set or something. I mean, it has a big ass movepool, but I honestly can't think of anything it does that other UUs can't do better other than Wish support and STAB Explosion. Someone at Gamefreak must have forgotten to give him Thick Fat. >_>
 
Funnily enough, the SubPunching Lickylicky I'm using at the moment doesn't have STAB at all (Which I probably should). It has Sub/FP/Fire Blast/Power Whip (I could run Return over Power Whip I guess). I'm walled totally by Moltres at the moment, which is pretty bad, but I can pretty much hit everything else. Lickilicky loves coming into Chansey for a free 101 Sub.
 
Not everything with a Sub needs Focus Punch. Power Whip and Fire Blast already handle Steels and Rock types as it is. The last slot should either go to Explosion or Zen Headbutt (because Hitmontop is a pest).

I think every good Lickilicky set needs Explosion because it can cover anything that might resist it with the rest of its moves and get a free kill off of anything you want it to.

EDIT: Wait, Sub Rhyperior can get even more free KOs without having to off itself in the process. Damn Lickilicky sucks lol.
 
lol i still find lickilicky best used as Toxic+wish staller...and also as the Sword Dancer sweeper lol which runs through alot of teams..stall and balanced
 
I think that all Jabba's saying is that if you're going to nominate someone like Raikou, you're going to have to overturn the existing argumentation for making Raikou UU pretty convincingly, since the argumentation did achieve what it wanted twice now. It doesn't imply a "special circumstance" directly.
 
So in this metagame I have been making more of an affort to test the potential suspects as best I can, even if it means I have to make up for my rating near the end. After some extensive testing of Moltres in the last week, I have to say that I can start to see the rationale behind the claims of 'overpoweredness' somewhat. You see, I'm generally rather bad at using Pokemon like Moltres, but even I have managed to rack up numerous 'effortless' kills and sweeps with it, as it is just so difficult to switch into for many teams. I don't think I can blame poor teambuilding for the most part either, as most teams do carry decent answers to it, it is just that many of them don't last long enough or struggle to switch in repeatedly, and when they go Moltres has an easy time. I think it is more the fact that Moltres is a master of one trade, and jack of the rest, similarly to what Heysup said a few pages back. It excels at offensive 'muscle', but is also very sturdy, reasonably quick, and has a good typing to switch in easily on many common pokes. With very little in generally exploitable weaknesses, it results in the most reliable strategy for a number of teams being: get SR down early, keep it there at all costs, and hope you can check it once or twice without suffering too much damage. That's quite worrying for the metagame if so. Not a complete convert yet, but leaning that way.

I'm also not yet convinced that Froslass can be blamed entirely for this. Now Froslass is definitely an on-the-fence BL for me still, so don't get me wrong, it is just that I have tested Moltres with Froslass (both lead and non-lead) and other spikers like Qwilfish, and haven't found its effectiveness change all that much. It just seems to benefit greatly from spikes in general regardless of where they come from, and other spikers can provide that just as well depending on the team.

As for Froslass individually, it is a difficult one. It is no secret that I hate her and find her to be annoying. And by annoying I mean VERY annoying (Jirachi and Togekiss in OU are mere cellophane 'S's in comparison IMHO), however, I am struggling to justify her BL status for more plausible reasons besides my own hatred. I guess there isn't really much more I can say about this right now, it just seems that the metagame has adapted to her adequately such that I haven't noticed anything stand-out broken about her yet.

On the subject of Pokemon that are definitely not broken, RP Torterra still runs though balance with regularity (it can also nab 2-3 kills against very offensive teams if you give it a chance to set up for whatever reason). Much of the time it depends on whether their Venusaur has slept anything yet, or their bulky lead (Uxie or whatever) is still healthy enough. I think much of its effectiveness stems from the fact that it easily beats RegiBro and other similar combinations, which many balance teams use as a simple and effective defensive core. If not using an obvious counter like Weezing or Tangrowth, it is advisable for balance teams to carry an effective scarfer or some effective priority like Ice Shard on Donphan / Cloyster or whatever to contribute towards keeping Torterra in check.
 
Let's ban Spikes. The move is obviously what makes Pokemon broken in multiple aspects... Froslass, Swellow, Moltres, and basically any sweeper. Any Pokemon that has access to it can easily setup two layers... which all it takes for a sweeper or phasing to plow through a team.
 
I've never had any problems with Moltres, honestly. Usually it gets no kills, but ends up weakening one of my Pokemon and then dying. Sometimes it gets a kill because the opponent brings it out lategame, and then I just revenge it because of its pathetic speed. And sometimes I just use it as Flash Fire fodder. To be honest I find Swellow much more problematic, since it sweeps me on a "regular" basis (i.e. in the infrequent occasions where I lose to SpikeStack Offense it's often Swellow who sweeps me, usually because I'm stupid and sac rhyperior early)
 
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