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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I'd love that... but yeah, I think no can do.
Spikestacking was never an issue before Lass came down, and now it is. So why would it be the fault of anything except Lass?
Roserade says Hi.
The issue is showing how spikestacking is broken and how Froslass can consistently create the broken situation.
I think the reason spike-stacking is only popular now is because the other spikers were mediocre. Nobody wanted to use Omastar, Qwilfish, or Cloyster because they had bad typing or bad speed or whatever. Along came Froslass, with great speed, great typing, and decent Sp. Atk. Omastar, Cloyster, and Qwilfish were too slow to be leads, and people might not have wanted to replace something for them. But Froslass functions as a great lead. If you want more proof, look at OU. Spikes aren't used much since people don't want to replace something on their offensive team for Skarmory. But in UU, suicide lead Lass fits great on an offensive team.
In my opinion, if Froslass is broken, it's because of her Ghost-typing.
Using a Pokemon which is now OU as an example only supports the idea that spikes are only broken if broken spikers use them.
Ice isn't really a good type, as it has a lot of weaknesses and virtually no resists. It's the Ghost type that makes her good.
Ok, I think we all get that Froslass is a bitch. I for one, agree she needs to go, but honestly, I'm tired of this thread going around in circles. Can we please start talking about things besides pokemon A is broken and then a series of 10-20 posts saying the exact same thing. Seriously? Sorry if I sound bitchy, but jeez...
I don't think she's broken.
Anyway, I just faced Fuzznip who had a Regigigas, and it actually stalled past the five turns and swept me. This inspired me to create my own team based around Regigigas (well actually I just stole his team :P). I'm sure we've already talked about him, but lets start a new discussion. It's a sub-staller and sweeper mix.
Anyway, I just faced Fuzznip who had a Regigigas, and it actually stalled past the five turns and swept me. This inspired me to create my own team based around Regigigas (well actually I just stole his team :P). I'm sure we've already talked about him, but lets start a new discussion. It's a sub-staller and sweeper mix.
Or, instead of talking about regiggas, we could talk about metagame trends. Yeah let's do that. Has anyone noticed the significant decline in stall-based teams on the ladder? Maybe it's just me, but I've been seeing much more bulky offense and much less stall than is typical in UU. Why is this?
Suspects are the most interesting part of the metagame. Without any sort of controversy, it's difficult to stir up any real discussion besides "I've been using X Pokemon and they work great!!!!", which is honestly really boring.
However, I do agree that this whole Froslass controversy is quite ridiculous. If so many people had a problem with it, it should have been voted BL by now, but as it stands, it wasn't even nominated last round. The ducks are gone now, so there should be no excuse not to have it nominated.
A: You don't.
However, I do agree that this whole Froslass controversy is quite ridiculous. If so many people had a problem with it, it should have been voted BL by now, but as it stands, it wasn't even nominated last round. The ducks are gone now, so there should be no excuse not to have it nominated.
Q: How does one "stall" vs. Froslass and Moltres?
A: You don't.
Wow, so now we're discussing how to discuss things!
But anyway, I don't think Froslass is very broken. At least with the teams I used, it's not a big concern for me.
But anyway, I don't think Froslass is very broken. At least with the teams I used, it's not a big concern for me.
"I haven't had any problems with it" is dangerous thinking for a metagame discussion. You have to think along the lines of why other players could be having problems with it, why you don't, and whether or not others could reasonably be employing the same strategy.
For instance, even if you run an anti-lead, Froslass is capable of switching and spiking it up later. I don't even have to reveal my sweepers until the setup is sufficient and I can safely demolish whatever you have in store. Moltres is quite dangerous and difficult to counter with Spikes on the field and Froslass has an easy time setting them up, as opposed to the likes of Cloyster or Omastar. It's easy to see her being voted BL under the Support Characteristic, as she plays the single most defining role in allowing successful UU sweeps.
For instance, even if you run an anti-lead, Froslass is capable of switching and spiking it up later. I don't even have to reveal my sweepers until the setup is sufficient and I can safely demolish whatever you have in store. Moltres is quite dangerous and difficult to counter with Spikes on the field and Froslass has an easy time setting them up, as opposed to the likes of Cloyster or Omastar. It's easy to see her being voted BL under the Support Characteristic, as she plays the single most defining role in allowing successful UU sweeps.
I'm surprised there isn't more stall than there is (and I very much disagree that stall can't handle spikes + Moltres, as was mentioned in a post i was too lazy to quote). These Froslass + Moltres + Swellow teams that are everywhere are really getting annoying and are definitely the most played team core right now, which is kind of irritating. I think this is as balanced of a game as I've seen UU be since the Yanmega period, yet that team type being so common is a red flag to me. I'd say Moltres is a much bigger issue than Froslass (as I said in the other topic I'm probably going to vote BL on Moltres if things continue as they have), though Froslass is definitely the better Pokemon in that it fits on many more teams.
I'm not sure what I think about Froslass as a lead. People are right that most other feasible leads have adapted to counter it, but when basically every lead is a counter to Froslass is that the metagame adjusting or the metagame being too centralized around one dangerous Pokemon? I don't think it matters too much either way, since there's a big difference between centralized teams and leads, but it's something I think about.
Back to stall, though, the handful of teams still running it competently have done really well. I know several of the top 20 have used it exclusively so I don't understand why I don't see more of it... stall will probably always be the best ladder strategy in this tier, and the best team style against some of the less experienced players you tend to hit while laddering especially. I think just by virtue of how much longer games are when stall is involved people trying to play a lot of ladder games in one night tend to breeze through games vs. stall (or often, quit), which leads to the stall user getting a lot of easy points.
I'm also kind of surprised that after all the crying about it I haven't seen more rain. I really don't buy the "boring playstyle" reasoning, either - outside of Thund (and props to him), there aren't many leaderboard quality players who are playing with much other than winning in mind. Like I said a bit ago, a lot of the leaderboarders are running stall, and the players running more offensive teams are doing so because that's what works best for them, not because they're trying to do a triple lutz super cool to get a 9.5 from the Russian judge for style. I think I've only hit one top 50 opponent who is usually running Rain, which is really surprising to me. Though there's certainly a lot more Toxicroak and Poliwrath on the ladder than ever before...
To the best of my knowledge the point of the special circumstances thing is to prevent the system from being abused by voting on something suspect period after suspect period until we finally end up with just the right magical mix of voters that finally bans a Pokemon that has been repeatedly been voted UU. The idea is for it to be difficult to keep throwing votes out until results go BL's way, so at this point for Pokemon like Raikou to be up for voting again it would in theory need to be proven in the nomination that the metagame has changed enough that it would make sense that Raikou is broken now when it was "proven" that it wasn't before.
I kind of think that Rain is actually more fun in a way because the "bad" games end so much more quickly, and the "good" games are still just that, good games.
Have you actually used Cloyster and Omastar? It's just as easy (probably easier) to set up Spikes with them. I'm with Bluewind in that the only reason Froslass might be a suspect is because it's the only Spiker who can actually block Rapid Spin attempts. Other then that imo it's inferior to other Spikers.
I don't have problems with Froslass. Though Froslass leads are annoying to face.
I despise Raikou way more, and i still don't know why it's still UU...
And yes, i've seen many Moltres last few days... even stalled one with Articuno.
And coincidentally ive seen more Slowkings than ever.
I must say, Torterra is good on this kind of metagame. Pass a simple Agility, and this thing is hard to stop.
I despise Raikou way more, and i still don't know why it's still UU...
And yes, i've seen many Moltres last few days... even stalled one with Articuno.
And coincidentally ive seen more Slowkings than ever.
I must say, Torterra is good on this kind of metagame. Pass a simple Agility, and this thing is hard to stop.
Yet Omastar and Cloyster have the defenses to actually take hits and don't bend over backwards from any pokemon who can even unleash a mild hit. And I honestly don't get why everyone is saying Froslass has great typing. Good? Sure. But taking 25% on the switch-in and having common weaknesses to Dark, Fire, and Rock don't make it as easy to switch-in as one would think.
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