I strongly wish that event Raikou would be Adamant. The thing is just as physically bulky as Ampharos, slightly bulkier from the special side, hits just as hard as Ampharos, has Calm Mind and is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier. And it still gets a ridiculous boost? I always hated Suicune, but what they're doing now with Raikou is enough for me. Imbalance. Boring UU pokemon X gets everything whilst a wide variety of NU Pokemon has to remain obsolete and not fully usable.
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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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My feelings on the suspects even though I can't vote ...
Raikou: abstain. This Pokemon is, as Narulyg put it, "borderline BL". It's very powerful by UU standards, and the things it has that makes it stand out over other special sweeepers are its bulk (considerably bulkier than Alakazam) and its speed (115 speed is among the highest in the tier). I think if Raikou had 100 base speed, or 90 base speed like Moltres, nobody would call it BL ... but since it has 115 base speed it's rather pushing the limit. Nonetheless it doesn't have priority and there certainly are scarfed Pokemon + a few faster Pokemon that can force it out. Raikou will not have one Calm Mind each time it attacks; neither will it attack each time you switch.
Example: Raikou switches in on Froslass. Obviously Froslass has no business staying, so Raikou gets that one free turn. If the Froslass player switches to Swellow (brave decision, but still a possible one) and the Raikou player uses Calm Mind, then that's the one free turn wasted. In fact Swellow gets free damage on whatever switches in. Or, if the Froslass player goes to Dugtrio (also a brave decision, but a possible one) and Raikou uses Thunderbolt, then Raikou is done for. Substitute is another matter, but Raikous with Substitute should carry Leftovers and the Froslass player can react accordingly.
So ... Raikou is a top tier threat in UU, but whether or not it's BL isn't something I can say. Abstain.
Froslass: UU; I've given the reasons elsewhere and am thinking of writing a longer paragraph to post in the Froslass thread ... even if I can't vote, it would help both UU-voters and BL-voters. If nothing else, both sides can either use the arguments or refute them in their paragraphs.
Dugtrio: UU. If Dugtrio is really such a big threat, run Shed Shell. The easiest of all the suspects to decide.
Moltres: UU. Largely the same as Raikou, with more power + coverage at the expense of less speed and bulk (with respect to Stealth Rock and Aqua Jet). I think the Stealth Rock bit really matters, because if it's up and you're forced to switch into it, you might achieve nothing as you Roost and your opponent goes to someone who can force you out. If Stealth Rock isn't up, Moltres still has several counters like Milotic and Slowking. Flash Fire Pokemon work as well if they predict right. and 90 base speed means Moltres is relatively easy to outspeed.
As with Raikou, another top-level threat, but for Moltres I'm definitely leaning towards UU.
Stealth Rock and Spikes: Oh well. Pity nobody else nominated them, although the metagame upheavals if these were banned would've been dreadful.
PS:
I don't think that's an argument. If you go to the RMT forums and look at any comprehensive RMT, they include a big threat list. The person making the team has to make sure they cover as many threats as possible. If having to "tweak their team JUST to deal with Raikou" makes Raikou BL, then surely having to "tweak their team JUST to deal with RP Torterra / DD Feraligatr / Alakazam / SD Absol etc" would make every offensive threat (and defensive threat, even) BL, right?
Raikou: abstain. This Pokemon is, as Narulyg put it, "borderline BL". It's very powerful by UU standards, and the things it has that makes it stand out over other special sweeepers are its bulk (considerably bulkier than Alakazam) and its speed (115 speed is among the highest in the tier). I think if Raikou had 100 base speed, or 90 base speed like Moltres, nobody would call it BL ... but since it has 115 base speed it's rather pushing the limit. Nonetheless it doesn't have priority and there certainly are scarfed Pokemon + a few faster Pokemon that can force it out. Raikou will not have one Calm Mind each time it attacks; neither will it attack each time you switch.
Example: Raikou switches in on Froslass. Obviously Froslass has no business staying, so Raikou gets that one free turn. If the Froslass player switches to Swellow (brave decision, but still a possible one) and the Raikou player uses Calm Mind, then that's the one free turn wasted. In fact Swellow gets free damage on whatever switches in. Or, if the Froslass player goes to Dugtrio (also a brave decision, but a possible one) and Raikou uses Thunderbolt, then Raikou is done for. Substitute is another matter, but Raikous with Substitute should carry Leftovers and the Froslass player can react accordingly.
So ... Raikou is a top tier threat in UU, but whether or not it's BL isn't something I can say. Abstain.
Froslass: UU; I've given the reasons elsewhere and am thinking of writing a longer paragraph to post in the Froslass thread ... even if I can't vote, it would help both UU-voters and BL-voters. If nothing else, both sides can either use the arguments or refute them in their paragraphs.
Dugtrio: UU. If Dugtrio is really such a big threat, run Shed Shell. The easiest of all the suspects to decide.
Moltres: UU. Largely the same as Raikou, with more power + coverage at the expense of less speed and bulk (with respect to Stealth Rock and Aqua Jet). I think the Stealth Rock bit really matters, because if it's up and you're forced to switch into it, you might achieve nothing as you Roost and your opponent goes to someone who can force you out. If Stealth Rock isn't up, Moltres still has several counters like Milotic and Slowking. Flash Fire Pokemon work as well if they predict right. and 90 base speed means Moltres is relatively easy to outspeed.
As with Raikou, another top-level threat, but for Moltres I'm definitely leaning towards UU.
Stealth Rock and Spikes: Oh well. Pity nobody else nominated them, although the metagame upheavals if these were banned would've been dreadful.
PS:
PK Gaming said:
I don't think that's an argument. If you go to the RMT forums and look at any comprehensive RMT, they include a big threat list. The person making the team has to make sure they cover as many threats as possible. If having to "tweak their team JUST to deal with Raikou" makes Raikou BL, then surely having to "tweak their team JUST to deal with RP Torterra / DD Feraligatr / Alakazam / SD Absol etc" would make every offensive threat (and defensive threat, even) BL, right?
Alright, I realize that I HAVE been posting like an idiot. (I should always discuss important matters on the DSI)
I do get what your saying Synre. A metagame with powerful pokemon is still healthy. I shouldn't be complaining, and should learn to adapt. (EX: We adapted to Scizor, we adapted to Mence. Hell in Smash Brothers, I adapted to freaking Metaknight)
At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I would use Sub+3 attacks Manetric, NP Rai chu (with Sub/Encore over Focus Blast) or even Sub Charge Rotom. Still though, Manetric's SwitchSpecs moveset is definetely it's best one (imo)
I do get what your saying Synre. A metagame with powerful pokemon is still healthy. I shouldn't be complaining, and should learn to adapt. (EX: We adapted to Scizor, we adapted to Mence. Hell in Smash Brothers, I adapted to freaking Metaknight)
At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I would use Sub+3 attacks Manetric, NP Rai chu (with Sub/Encore over Focus Blast) or even Sub Charge Rotom. Still though, Manetric's SwitchSpecs moveset is definetely it's best one (imo)
How much power does saying No Suspects hold? Do you have to write a paragraph saying why you think so and so are not broken or do you just put it and thats it?
I felt there was no point in keeping my deviation low if I didn't want to vote anyone BL.
I felt there was no point in keeping my deviation low if I didn't want to vote anyone BL.
I do think (Without playing just yet) that Specs Manectric with Switcheroo would be the most effective. A simple Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/HP Grass/Switcheroo gives it all the coverage that it needs (Switcheroo keeps Umbreon, Chansey and Clefable from switching in too readily). Just make sure you remove Duggy before attempting anything (If he stays UU this time, which he really should). 463 Special Attack and 339 Speed is nothing to scoff at. On the topic of Manectric, why the hell does he not get Fire Blast when he has Flamethrower and Overheat (And Fire Fang too)??
Well you need to get voting rights for each Pokemon, so this is not exactly the point.
For example, if you have enough SEXP, you can vote on Moltres, Dugtrio, Raikou, and Froslass only if your paragraphs (one essay/paragraph for each Pokemon) are accepted.
But voting "No suspects"....umm....all I can say is: Think before you vote.
I think you do have to write a paragraph to say why a certain something is UU.
I'm sorry, but while I don't play to terribly much now, I've been around since WAY back in round 1. Back then, my opinion on Raikou was this "It's powerful, but dealable, and is definately not broken". My opinion on it now is "It's still dealable, it's still powerful, and if you let it get a CM up on you, either you can't build teams or can't predict at all. Like me. And even then, it's doable."
Raikou doesn't switch in with 1 or 2 Calm minds up. If it is playing against someone who has the SLIGHTEST bit of experiance with UU and mild prediction skills, it will either get up 1 CM and be forced out or hit something weakly and... be forced out.
Aura Sphere and Weather Ball are different matters entirely. If that Raikou comes Timid, then I'd MAYBE think it's BL. Maybe. But until then, it's killable. Maybe not easily, but hey, Venusaur doesn't die so easily, so maybe we should ban him.
This argument is incredibly weak because it's not backed up by anything, in fact quite the contrary. If you look at various paragraphs in the Raikou thread you can see that, for example, in the previous Cress-less metagame Raikou set up on 44% of the top 50 Pokemon via forcing out (as in, if they stay in then they lose a Pokemon every time Raikou switches in) or simply being able to survive enough hits to set up and OHKO. This number has actually increased this round I'm fairly sure.
So before you dismiss Raikou based on fairly blind assumptions (same with Froslass-UU people and their apparent "OMG IT GETS HIT BY SUPER EFFECTIVE MOVES SO IT OBVIOUSLY GETS OHKOED syndrome") please look at what is actually happening.
Has anyone seen a sudden decrease in Moltres? It seems that there was all this hype but then people found you need a good spinner and some support against waters and they just gave up after finding out it wasn't just an easy button to victory.
Oh man I thought I cut I out my post. I in no way concede my view on Raikou being BL. (I was caught off because I was forced off the computer.)
Honestly, my points were pretty poor, due to general impatience or inconvenience, but I guess I'll make them (to the best of my ability) during the paragraph submissions.
Honestly, my points were pretty poor, due to general impatience or inconvenience, but I guess I'll make them (to the best of my ability) during the paragraph submissions.
What type of offense are you guys playing? Bulky? Slower? Because I've been playing offense the whole round and I have no trouble with Raikou, especially the SubCM set. If you just keep attacking, where exactly does it set up? Okay it switches in after a kill, you just attack it with the mon you have in. Or run something like Torterra or Rhyperior, or even both. If you're not boosting speed in this meta you're pretty stupid anyways, with all the Swellows, Raikou, Moltres, hell even Sceptiles running around.
Speaking of which, I know heysup probably has, but has anyone else given Agility Blaziken a go? Venusaur give you a nice little set-up, (if you risk the EQ) and now more than ever teams are using Milotic as their Moltres counter, running more SpD, so you can hit it with Superpower, doing around 75%. Most teams rely on Swellow to check it too, which you can kinda lol at.
Third, does anyone but me run QA over Protect on Swellow. I know I miss that orb activation a lot, but most people predict it anyways, and try to set up.
Speaking of which, I know heysup probably has, but has anyone else given Agility Blaziken a go? Venusaur give you a nice little set-up, (if you risk the EQ) and now more than ever teams are using Milotic as their Moltres counter, running more SpD, so you can hit it with Superpower, doing around 75%. Most teams rely on Swellow to check it too, which you can kinda lol at.
Third, does anyone but me run QA over Protect on Swellow. I know I miss that orb activation a lot, but most people predict it anyways, and try to set up.
A poke locked into a resistant move (Choice Item), an offensive weak wall, ...
EDIT: a lot of Venusaur carry EQ these days so that Agility you are trying to set up on him might be a bit dangerous. And QA is a good option on Swellow indeed as it can outspeed Sucker Punch users which is just great, if you could get Swellow in on something like EQ or something else resisted, you have no need for Protect.
In fact this is not the issue with Roost on Swellow, because it causes many switches. The main issues with Roost are that a) Swellow loses vs Sucker Punch and b) the extra HP doesn't really do much because naturally Swellow is going to be OHKOed by practically anything anyway.
True, but in Swellow's case it's a real kill or be killed situation and as long as Swellow doesn't take a hit it can still function. But after a few turn Brave Bird recoil, Burn/ Poison damage and SR are hurting him so if Swellow is needed to sweep longer then 2 turns a little recovery couldn't hurt right? I agree with Roost being kind of useless but that's why I suggest some Wish support to help him/ her.
Good. I never played with Swellow (well... once on a UU Mono Normal team), so i couldn't be certain.
About the "Venusaur has no counters" discussion: well, maybe it doesn't really have if you count every set... but a nice thing to note is that Drifblim resists EVERY move Venusaur normally uses.
But it doesn't really like Leech Seed (gigantic HP...), and can't switch on Sleep Powder (unless it has Chesto Berry with Sub).
Just saying.
About the "Venusaur has no counters" discussion: well, maybe it doesn't really have if you count every set... but a nice thing to note is that Drifblim resists EVERY move Venusaur normally uses.
But it doesn't really like Leech Seed (gigantic HP...), and can't switch on Sleep Powder (unless it has Chesto Berry with Sub).
Just saying.
Although it wasn't up last night, you can expect it sometime soon.
Yeah waiting on voter stats. Shouldn't have said "tonight." Mah bad.
Now stop asking me.
Now stop asking me.
Just like many other pokés honestly... Things like Moltres just do that better because even though they got no resistance to Return, they have Roost and the ability of OHKOing it, while also outspeeding it; not giving a damn at all.
On Moltres, there's the worry of taking Sludge Bombs from Scarf Venusaur, which can be fatal with SR on field (providing you switch in directly into it)
Articuno can take Sludge Bombs better... but the only goood set (SubRoost) is also 2HKO with SR on field. Oh well...
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