Anyway I find that CB Rhyperior combined with spikes is deadly,as there is no safe switch-in for it thanks to Spikes securing so many OHKOes (and CB Rhyperior is quite a nightmare to stall I think)
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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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But not the OHKO on SD Leafeon behind Reflect <_<
Also, when is the next audit to see which OUs fall to UU?
Yes but remember you have deviation as well. (Which is the difference between the two ratings divided by two. Eg. my rating was 1700-1800 so my deviation was (1800-1700)/2 = 100/2 = 50 deviation)
Thanks alot.
Head Smash is not more accurate than Stone Edge. And while it is stronger, the ATK difference makes up for it somewhat, and obviously all of Rhyperior's other moves are just much stronger (particularly its EQ). Rhyperior also has better typing, no matter what anyone else says. Steel is a good typing, but its resistances are mostly Special (which is why Registeel is used as a Special wall) and Aggron's shitty SDEF means that it can't switch in even on resisted hits very well...and in exchange it loses the fire resistance granted by Rock (no Arcanine switch for you) and gains nasty quad weaknesses to fighting and ground.
Just to put a end to the Rhyperior X Aggron thing:
Rhyperior: Overall better. NO MATTER WHAT. Rhyperior is just better.
Aggron: better typing (please... Rhyperior is better offensively, but no way it is defensively) and one of the better switches into Choiced pokes(if not the best one in UU). Head Smash is what saves Aggron (well, it was NU before it gained Head Smash).
If Aggron loses a fire resist, it gains a grass neutrality and lots of resists.
If Aggron has Head Smash, Rhyperior has 2 another strong attacks with perfect coverage, while Aggron relies on HS.
Both pokes has two 4X weaknesses... but Aggron ones are more common.
Under Sandstorm, Aggron becomes capable of taking some SE special hits, while Rhyperior becomes a really nasty tank.
So under Sandstorm most Rhyperior forfeits some Evs on attack to be tankish (even Curse sets are fine for Rhyperior... though they are better in OU) while Aggron stays offensive, but more effective.
CB is way better done by Rhyperior.
RP is slightly better done by Aggron.
Tankish sets are common and better done by Rhyperior. Aggron saving grace for tankish sets is Metal Burst.
Aggron has a STAB 100 BP attack... but no one uses said attack thanks to it's typing and accuracy.
Rhyperior also has a STAB 100 BP attack... and this one is the most used move of all times.
Rhyperior has Stone Edge just like any other rock poke. But Rhyperior has the second strongest one.
Aggron Head Smash gets past any drawback-free attack, being probably the strongest drawback free attack in the game. Stronger than Rhyperior Stone Edge by a good-although-not-stellar margin.
Coverage moves? Rhyperior only needs Megahorn, a 120 BP attack.
Aggron options are almost filler. Aqua Tail being the best option.
Overall: Rhyperior wins. It's more dangerous, it's more bulky, it has perfect coverage with really strong attacks.
Aggron has Head Smash and resists.
JUst to add: Well, Bluewind, if Rhyperior was 4X weak to Close Combats and Eartquakes like Aggron, i'm sure it wouldn't enjoy those attacks too...
Rhyperior: Overall better. NO MATTER WHAT. Rhyperior is just better.
Aggron: better typing (please... Rhyperior is better offensively, but no way it is defensively) and one of the better switches into Choiced pokes(if not the best one in UU). Head Smash is what saves Aggron (well, it was NU before it gained Head Smash).
If Aggron loses a fire resist, it gains a grass neutrality and lots of resists.
If Aggron has Head Smash, Rhyperior has 2 another strong attacks with perfect coverage, while Aggron relies on HS.
Both pokes has two 4X weaknesses... but Aggron ones are more common.
Under Sandstorm, Aggron becomes capable of taking some SE special hits, while Rhyperior becomes a really nasty tank.
So under Sandstorm most Rhyperior forfeits some Evs on attack to be tankish (even Curse sets are fine for Rhyperior... though they are better in OU) while Aggron stays offensive, but more effective.
CB is way better done by Rhyperior.
RP is slightly better done by Aggron.
Tankish sets are common and better done by Rhyperior. Aggron saving grace for tankish sets is Metal Burst.
Aggron has a STAB 100 BP attack... but no one uses said attack thanks to it's typing and accuracy.
Rhyperior also has a STAB 100 BP attack... and this one is the most used move of all times.
Rhyperior has Stone Edge just like any other rock poke. But Rhyperior has the second strongest one.
Aggron Head Smash gets past any drawback-free attack, being probably the strongest drawback free attack in the game. Stronger than Rhyperior Stone Edge by a good-although-not-stellar margin.
Coverage moves? Rhyperior only needs Megahorn, a 120 BP attack.
Aggron options are almost filler. Aqua Tail being the best option.
Overall: Rhyperior wins. It's more dangerous, it's more bulky, it has perfect coverage with really strong attacks.
Aggron has Head Smash and resists.
JUst to add: Well, Bluewind, if Rhyperior was 4X weak to Close Combats and Eartquakes like Aggron, i'm sure it wouldn't enjoy those attacks too...
Anyway, I've been using my troll team on the ladder because I'm tired of rain/my regular bulky offense. And I've found that SubCharge lanturn is very very dangerous. There are a bunch of registeel running Seismic Toss/Shadow Claw over the usual Iron Head/Earthquake these days, and Lanturn can easily get to +6 on those, gaining the ability to 2hko them at +3. It can also set up rather easily on Chansey, and gains the ability to 2hko it at +5 (which should be easy, considering that you should be behind a sub when it gets in and you can make 7 more subs before you die, which take Chansey 2 hits to break). And of course it's the best Moltres counter in the tier. I know Thund has been using the Specs Lanturn but I like this one better, and Lanturn in general needs more love.
The team with this in it has been oddly successful, getting my troll account to the high 1400s in about 20 minutes.
The team with this in it has been oddly successful, getting my troll account to the high 1400s in about 20 minutes.
I can certainly attest to how destructive a well-played CB Rhyperior is with a bit of hazards support. With SR and one layer of Spikes it is almost hilariously punishing. So many defensive teams rely on a Milotic to check it, but when it is taking a net total of ~80% with hazards + STAB move off 624 Attack, all you need is something like Raikou or Venusaur to come straight in and immediately force it out, at which point they can no longer check you even if they used Recover. In fact, you don't even need Spikes most of the time to break defensive cores apart, SR itself usually suffices in common conditions. Although several Pokemon can 2HKO anything with a choice set, what sets Rhyperior apart is its ability to effortlessly come in on several common UU Pokemon with its typing, ability and bulk. No matter what anyone says, Aggron cannot do this to the same extent.
I think I remember somebody on this forum (j. franky IIRC) saying that one day Rhyperior will prove itself to be a BL candidate. I found that comment to be a bit perplexing at the time, but now not so much. I still don't think it is broken right now, but I can definitely see the potential, if more people recognize its main strengths and find better and better ways to utilize them. What does everybody else think?
BTW, what do people commonly run in the fourth slot? I often like to run Rock Blast, with the remaining EVs (after max Attack and set speed) pumped into special defense, as I find that this allows Rhyperior to check Pokemon like Raikou, Missy and SubRoost Moltres / Articuno from time to time, among other less common Sub users.
EDIT: about that Lanturn, I assume Charge Beam / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Substitute? But what about the EVs? I would guess at 52 HP and (close to) max special attack at least, but I am not sure about the rest.
I think I remember somebody on this forum (j. franky IIRC) saying that one day Rhyperior will prove itself to be a BL candidate. I found that comment to be a bit perplexing at the time, but now not so much. I still don't think it is broken right now, but I can definitely see the potential, if more people recognize its main strengths and find better and better ways to utilize them. What does everybody else think?
BTW, what do people commonly run in the fourth slot? I often like to run Rock Blast, with the remaining EVs (after max Attack and set speed) pumped into special defense, as I find that this allows Rhyperior to check Pokemon like Raikou, Missy and SubRoost Moltres / Articuno from time to time, among other less common Sub users.
Not too sure about that, what with the lack of recovery and always being 2HKO'd by HP Grass.
EDIT: about that Lanturn, I assume Charge Beam / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Substitute? But what about the EVs? I would guess at 52 HP and (close to) max special attack at least, but I am not sure about the rest.
I don't think CB Rhyperior can be considered "broken" really. You just need to predict around its attacks like any choicer. Steelix, Quagsire, defensive Hitmontop, Aggron, and a whole bunch of other pokes have no problem with Stone Edge, Earthquake is even easier to play around, and Megahorn/Aqua Tail sucks as anything but coverage. If you predict incorrectly, yeah you just lost a Pokemon, but if you predict correctly you just gained a free turn. That's just how Choicers work.
I think as far as dangerous Rhyperior sets go, Subperior is much more damaging to teams without a Milotic (who is literally the only thing on Balance capable of walling it), capable of easily switching in on things like Swellow or Ambipom, setting up a sub, and netting at least a kill against offensive teams, and doing massive damage to a stall core. Even if the opponent has a Milotic, it takes Max/Max+ Milotic to successfully switch in on Rhyperior, and a lot of people now run more SDEF to deal with Moltres, so it'll often find itself having to spam Recover just to stay alive...and in that case, a Rhyperior with Swords Dance (instead of Megahorn) will ends its plans very very rapidly. Speaking of which, I think Swords Dance LO Subperior is probably the most dangerous set. It still functions very well against offense, capable of doing severe damage to most things while minimizing prediction due to Substitute, and it's also very scary against stall because it can just SD up and sweeper slower teams.
About Lanturn...my Rain Dance Lanturn has never been 2hko'd by HP Grass. A quick check on the Smogon calc gets 36.6% - 43.2%, which is almost never a 2hko with Rocks and only sometimes a 2hko with rocks and a layer of spikes. Of course, you really shouldn't get outpredicted into switching into HP Grass anyway, and Lanturn resists both of Moltres' STABs so it's a lot easier to switch in. I mean, Chansey is probably still a better counter than Lanturn, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that it's one of the best counters in the tier.
I do agree about the lack of recovery, but a theorymon set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Discharge/Surf seems like it would work pretty well. It would also help out against Rotom, special Ludicolo, and Gorebyss in addition to Moltres. I would test it but I'm not inclined towards Stall.
I think as far as dangerous Rhyperior sets go, Subperior is much more damaging to teams without a Milotic (who is literally the only thing on Balance capable of walling it), capable of easily switching in on things like Swellow or Ambipom, setting up a sub, and netting at least a kill against offensive teams, and doing massive damage to a stall core. Even if the opponent has a Milotic, it takes Max/Max+ Milotic to successfully switch in on Rhyperior, and a lot of people now run more SDEF to deal with Moltres, so it'll often find itself having to spam Recover just to stay alive...and in that case, a Rhyperior with Swords Dance (instead of Megahorn) will ends its plans very very rapidly. Speaking of which, I think Swords Dance LO Subperior is probably the most dangerous set. It still functions very well against offense, capable of doing severe damage to most things while minimizing prediction due to Substitute, and it's also very scary against stall because it can just SD up and sweeper slower teams.
About Lanturn...my Rain Dance Lanturn has never been 2hko'd by HP Grass. A quick check on the Smogon calc gets 36.6% - 43.2%, which is almost never a 2hko with Rocks and only sometimes a 2hko with rocks and a layer of spikes. Of course, you really shouldn't get outpredicted into switching into HP Grass anyway, and Lanturn resists both of Moltres' STABs so it's a lot easier to switch in. I mean, Chansey is probably still a better counter than Lanturn, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that it's one of the best counters in the tier.
I do agree about the lack of recovery, but a theorymon set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Discharge/Surf seems like it would work pretty well. It would also help out against Rotom, special Ludicolo, and Gorebyss in addition to Moltres. I would test it but I'm not inclined towards Stall.
Typing doesn't matter without the stats to back it up. Aggron can't even switch in on its resists due to it's absolutely TERRIBLE SpD (70/50) compared to Rhyperior's 115/55.
Aggron resists: Bug, Dark, Dragon, Flying (x1/4), Ghost, Ice, Normal (x1/4), Poison (x0), Psychic, Rock
Rhyperior resists: Electric (x0), Fire, Flying, Normal, Poison (x1/4), Rock
Aggron resists 10 types. Rhyperior resists 6. The difference though is Solid Rock. The main pokemon that use each type of move that Aggron resists:
Bug: Scyther, Venomoth
Dark: Spiritomb, Umbreon, Houndoom
Dragon: Altaria
Flying: Moltres, Swellow
Ghost: Mismagius
Ice: Bulky waters, random hidden powers
Normal: Ambipom, Kangaskhan, Swellow
Poison: Venusaur
Psychic: Alakazam
Rock: Rhyperior, Aggron, QuakeEdge comboers
Relook at that list. Aggron switches in on a resist. Scyther Brick Breaks. SpecsMoth Tinted Lens. Houndoom Fire Blast. Altaria EQ. Moltres Fire Blast. Mismagius HP Fighting. Bulky waters Surf. Random hidden powers = special moves = dead. Ambipom Low Kick. Kangaskhan Hammer Arm/Focus Punch. Venusaur Sleep Powder. Alakazam Focus Blast/hp fighting. QUAKEedge.
Everything on that list except Swellow and Spiritomb beat Aggron on a switch in to a resist due to its glaring 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Ground along with an effective 4x weakness to special moves >.<
Electric: Raikou
Fire: Moltres, Houndoom, Blaziken, Arcanine
Flying: Moltres, Swellow
Normal: Swellow, Ambipom, Kangaskhan
Poison: Venusaur
Rock: QuakeEdge
So yes, same applys here. It only really safely fully counters Swellow and Arcanine... until you factor in Solid Rock. It survives a +1 Raikou HP Grass/Ice, easy. It can take a Blaziken SuperPower. Ambipom's Low Kick doesn't KO, neither does Kangaskhan. EQs don't hurt nearly as much.
Rhyperior is better defensively.
I lost to Sapentia using this kind Lanturn on a Rain Team.
"Typing". Aggron typing is better, but it isn't backed up by stats or Solid Rock which leads to Rhyperior being better defensively.
I was pointing out both pokes typings. Forget about stats or whatever: just put both typings together.
Rock/Steel resists more things(and most important ones) and it's weak to 3 types though it's 4X weak to more common types.
Rock/Ground resists less types and it's weak to various types. Almost all of them are common (not Steel... maybe grass).
Comparing both types, the rock/steel one is better.
Now, comparing Aggron and Rhyperior: Rhyperior is better defensively.
Sorry if i didn't make myself clear.
And come on, Rhyperior isn't really what i call specially bulky. Better than Aggron for sure, but things like Magmortar can 2HKO it with Fire Blast (it CAN... i already did 3 times)... and that's without a boosting item.
And Raikou +1 HP Grass will OHKO.
136/128 Rhyperior against +1 Raikou using HP Grass: 113.3% - 133.3%.
So:
Rhyperior is bulkier from both sides (if you count Solid Rock) while Aggron still relies on resists(but Aggron is too slow to take advantage most of the time ... unless you have Scarf or switch into Choiced pokes) , so Rhyperior is indeed better defensively.
Again, sorry if i didn't make myself clear.
Just a typo: Aggron has 70/60 spD, not 70/50.
I was pointing out both pokes typings. Forget about stats or whatever: just put both typings together.
Rock/Steel resists more things(and most important ones) and it's weak to 3 types though it's 4X weak to more common types.
Rock/Ground resists less types and it's weak to various types. Almost all of them are common (not Steel... maybe grass).
Comparing both types, the rock/steel one is better.
Now, comparing Aggron and Rhyperior: Rhyperior is better defensively.
Sorry if i didn't make myself clear.
And come on, Rhyperior isn't really what i call specially bulky. Better than Aggron for sure, but things like Magmortar can 2HKO it with Fire Blast (it CAN... i already did 3 times)... and that's without a boosting item.
And Raikou +1 HP Grass will OHKO.
136/128 Rhyperior against +1 Raikou using HP Grass: 113.3% - 133.3%.
So:
Rhyperior is bulkier from both sides (if you count Solid Rock) while Aggron still relies on resists(but Aggron is too slow to take advantage most of the time ... unless you have Scarf or switch into Choiced pokes) , so Rhyperior is indeed better defensively.
Again, sorry if i didn't make myself clear.
Just a typo: Aggron has 70/60 spD, not 70/50.
Just my last words about the discussion:
It's just that it looks like everyone thinks that Aggron is completely outclassed by Rhyperior in everyway possible no matter what...
It might me just my impression... but that's what it looks like.
Me and Lonewolf both know that Rhyperior is better, but we also recognize Aggron strong points. Probably he uses/used Aggron extensively like me to know that.
And again: We know Rhyperior is better.
End the discussion.
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Ok, about Lanturn: i used a Agility Charge Larturn once... it did fine.
I'm a Lanturn fan, but i don't like it's stats and no set up/recovery move, so i can't fit Lanturn well on a team(despite being the #1 Slowbro/Blastoise/Moltres counter).
It's just that it looks like everyone thinks that Aggron is completely outclassed by Rhyperior in everyway possible no matter what...
It might me just my impression... but that's what it looks like.
Me and Lonewolf both know that Rhyperior is better, but we also recognize Aggron strong points. Probably he uses/used Aggron extensively like me to know that.
And again: We know Rhyperior is better.
End the discussion.
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Ok, about Lanturn: i used a Agility Charge Larturn once... it did fine.
I'm a Lanturn fan, but i don't like it's stats and no set up/recovery move, so i can't fit Lanturn well on a team(despite being the #1 Slowbro/Blastoise/Moltres counter).
I'll tell you Rhyperior's advantages over Aggron in a nut shell: Solid Rock and Earthquake. Earthquake is a huge bonus as it scares away Steelix, Rhyperior, and Registeel - common switch-ins to Stone Edge/Head Smash. With a STAB Earthquake in Rhyperior's belt, you'll notice that CB Rhyperior's “checks” and counters become very low. Solid Rock is just another perk, but it really isn't game-breaking. Earthquake is the huge selling point. I do agree though that Aggron is the better STAB Rock spammer, but Rhyperior is completely better as a Choice Bander.
I HAVE used Aggron extensively and I DO think he has his own niche. The RP is still [IMO] Better done by Aggron. Aggron also has Sub+Rise.
Those are his only pros over Rhyperior.
Anyway, seeing as how CBperior [or Rhyperior in general] is becoming more of a threat, why don't we name the next UU discussion:
np UU: Stuck in between a rock and a hot place.
{Moltres being the hot place}
Those are his only pros over Rhyperior.
Anyway, seeing as how CBperior [or Rhyperior in general] is becoming more of a threat, why don't we name the next UU discussion:
np UU: Stuck in between a rock and a hot place.
{Moltres being the hot place}
Rhyperior is good, but not suspect worthy. Like FB said, you have to play around him just like any other CB user. Yeah, he will probably take something down, but after something has fainted, Rhyperior is left wide open, usually giving the opponent a free turn to do pretty much whatever they please. The main things keeping Rhyperior in UU are his piss poor special defense and speed, and two 4x weaknesses to extremely common types. I also agree with FB in saying that Subperior is Rhyperior's best set. Instead of Moltres switching in on a locked Earthquake or Megahorn and forcing you to switch, just set a sub up and something is guaranteed to die.
But but but... Rhyperior breaks support characteristic because he makes it substantially easier to sweep with other Pokemon.
Suspect is such a strong word... so use it sparingly.
On another note, in less than a week I have to change out teams. Before the wins came so stupidly easy... now that Moltres is seemingly on the rise things have changed a bit.
Suspect is such a strong word... so use it sparingly.
On another note, in less than a week I have to change out teams. Before the wins came so stupidly easy... now that Moltres is seemingly on the rise things have changed a bit.
Whether Rhyperior fits the Support Characteristic remains to be seen, but CB Rhyp does have a chance to fit it IMO. One can argue for Rhyperior being BL just like people are voting whether SpecsLatias fits the Support Characteristic for OU right now. Rhyperior can pretty much drill (No pun intended) a hole in your team when he predicts correctly, just like Latias can. Although Rhyperior has nowhere near the Speed, he has great bulk on his side, allowing himself to switch into physical attacks with near impunity (Apart from stuff like STAB 2x effective attacks or 4x effective attacks). He can also tank some weak special hits thanks to Solid Rock as well. Rhyperior can also switch in and out without much trouble due to his resistance of Stealth Rock.
Ouch I just vs'd a guy on the ladder who had Cloyster lead and CBperior. I got annihalated. If you can give CBperior the right support you can basically hit cruise control and spam Stone edge or Earthquake
So that's annoying team is yours? o_O
anyway smogon calc show that CB megahorn from Rhyperior do around 66.4% - 79% to +2 (reflect) Leafeon with minimum defense investment,means that after 3 layer of spikes and SR Leafeon will be OHKOed
anyway smogon calc show that CB megahorn from Rhyperior do around 66.4% - 79% to +2 (reflect) Leafeon with minimum defense investment,means that after 3 layer of spikes and SR Leafeon will be OHKOed
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