Tentacruel can still survive a hit from those moves and attack with the appropriate move.
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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Tentacruel can still survive a hit from those moves and attack with the appropriate move.
It only really beats Ludicolo. Gorebyss has Psychic and Omastar has Earthpower, both of which 2HKO. Ludicolo is also running SD 1/3 of the time so you cant blindly switch it in. Its a good check to them but definitely not a "great counter" to anything other than special Ludicolo.
Whatever. I can think of counter-arguments to all of those statements, but I do not want it in UU regardless.
Ground is NVE against Bug. Unless you're talking about Tentacruel.
Ground is NVE against Bug. Unless you're talking about Tentacruel.
Heracross is actually more powerful than Rhyperior... don't be fooled by stats.
Close Combat and Megahorn both are stronger than EQ/Stone Edge. That's without Guts.
Even if it has less atk, Heracross hurts more overall.
Of course we could test it... IF it goes down to UU. IF.
Tentacruel... well, it wouldn't take Milotic place as the #1 bulky water in UU, but certainly it is more suited to counter some pokes...
You know what would be an amazing check to Heracross...Crobat!
Anyway, Heracross shouldn't even be dropped. As Lemmiwinks already pointed out, we have a definite precedent for tiering with Gallade already banned. I don't think its too far of a stretch to say that adding another base 120 STAB move makes Heracross any less broken than Gallade, so the argument should end there.
Anyway, Heracross shouldn't even be dropped. As Lemmiwinks already pointed out, we have a definite precedent for tiering with Gallade already banned. I don't think its too far of a stretch to say that adding another base 120 STAB move makes Heracross any less broken than Gallade, so the argument should end there.
Huh. I just did damage calcs and apparently the extra 20 base power of the moves does make Heracross more powerful. I didn't expect that.
What if it's a Scarf Cross with Stone Edge? :P
What if it's a Scarf Cross with Stone Edge? :P
What exactly is the point of saying this?
(I'd say it's fairly obvious it was in reference to Tentacruel, since it was a reply to that...)
To reply to that post myself, I'd say "counter" would be a hell of an overstatement since it's still going to take a lot of damage from most rain sweepers
(all LO +0 mean damage in the rain, Tentacruel's Toxic Spiking set from the analysis used for convenience)
Kabutops Stone Edge 76% (Waterfall 44%)
Omastar Earth Power 55% (Surf 32%)
Gorebyss Psychic 53% (Surf 32%)
Ludicolo Seed Bomb 45% (Waterfall 33%)
Noobicolo Grass Move 30.5% (Surf 27%)
Qwilfash Waterfall 40% (Explosion OHKO)
but Tentacruel would be a pretty incredibly invaluable asset when trying to play around rain. There's not too many rain sweepers I'd just leave Tenta in to duke it out with due to that 2HKO threat from most of them, but with a fairly defensive spread like that one it is probably the best universal defensive rain counter in the tier (other than maybe Toxicroak). Tentacruel would help deal with a lot of big threats in the game right now - I really wish we could just drop it down, lol. Especially after doing those calcs... it's much better at defending this stuff than I expected it to be. Swapping it in and out a bit it'd be pretty nice for absorbing a few hits, though the issue with a set like that is that it has a hard time threatening back, and with a Swords Dance a lot of those trivial hits suddenly become big problems.
I'd be all for axing Heracross early if the situation ever arises, theorymon or no. I think even Cresselia was already obvious enough that we were wasting our time - not only was the vote 14-3 to end up with a pretty ridiculous 82% BL vote, but several people voted only on Cresselia, which I think says something about how much more imbalanced Cresselia seemed to the voters than the other suspects. I'd also say this result was fairly obvious from day 1 that that vote was going to go the way it did... it was a waste of six weeks of testing in many ways. I don't see much value in doing the same with something like Heracross (well, only four now) if it is even nearly as powerful.
Honestly though, I'd love to just test Dusknoir, Heracross (and subsequently quick boot), and Tentacruel next period, even though it'd require a policy change that won't happen. Those three are the only Pokemon who remaining who could viably fall to UU this gen barring something major changing, which is unlikely with gen 5 on the horizon, so rather than playing chicken with the tiering it'd be nice to just try them out and get what we have more stable quickly.
I knew a mod would come to say that lol
I was the one who started the whole Heracross thing. Sorry.
Anyways...
So the best Moltres check/counter is Lanturn?
What about Miltank?
Only thing I don't like about Miltank is that it's just not that great of a Pokemon especially if I have to put Rock Slide and Thick Fat on it just to deal with Moltres. I'd much rather use a Curse set, or Scrappy set, or a better normal-type, or a better pokemon overall, of which there are lots.
I think Miltank isn't that great overall because it lacks some moves even if the moveset is good.
I mean, probably the most used set is the Curse one... Curse on someone with a 100 base speed? Why not Bulk Up? It's WAY better on Miltank...
As SR user... it's reliable at setting SR up and it's as defensive as Slowbro... except it lacks resists. Normal types sucks sometimes...
Oh... what about a sweeper? It's durable and it's fast!
Well... it lacks power and anything worthy to set up and taking advantage of it's speed.
Yes, attack wise it has lots of options... Milk Drink, SR, Heal Bell, Thunder Wave or STAB Body Slam... but what's Miltank is about is being a fast tank, and Miltank lacks the good options for that.
But Miltank can deal with Moltres... it's just that having a Miltank only for that isn't nice at all. Since other options to counter Moltres can do other things (Slowking, Lanturn, Regirock, Milotic...) and are useful overall (again, resistances...)
I mean, probably the most used set is the Curse one... Curse on someone with a 100 base speed? Why not Bulk Up? It's WAY better on Miltank...
As SR user... it's reliable at setting SR up and it's as defensive as Slowbro... except it lacks resists. Normal types sucks sometimes...
Oh... what about a sweeper? It's durable and it's fast!
Well... it lacks power and anything worthy to set up and taking advantage of it's speed.
Yes, attack wise it has lots of options... Milk Drink, SR, Heal Bell, Thunder Wave or STAB Body Slam... but what's Miltank is about is being a fast tank, and Miltank lacks the good options for that.
But Miltank can deal with Moltres... it's just that having a Miltank only for that isn't nice at all. Since other options to counter Moltres can do other things (Slowking, Lanturn, Regirock, Milotic...) and are useful overall (again, resistances...)
I just wanted to Quickly point out that it needs a 66%+1 to get a super majority, so 82% BL votes is very much not ridiculous.
My issues with Lanturn and Miltank as Moltres checks are:
a) They are grounded
b) They can be bypassed by correct prediction and a little bit of luck
c) They have very little other function
d) read c) again for emphasis
If I'm being forced to check Moltres + Spikes, I shouldn't be forced to use some otherwise useless Pokemon. I think, personally, that the best switch in is a slightly SpD EV'd Azumarill because of CB Aqua Jet's ability to OHKO Moltres. Otherwise SpD Milotic is your best bet.
Because it doesn't get Bulk Up.
The best counter to Moltres + Spikes is not letting spikes go up and running Milotic. Run a lead that efficiently gets rid of Froslass (Hariyama, Cloyster) and then keep offensive pressure on. It's the only way I've really found has a decent chance. It's also the best way to stop rain - keep offensive pressure on after rain goes down.
How does Cloyster lead beat Lass? Unless if your running Payback and ice shard (which you shouldn't be) Froslass will always get up 2 layers of spikes maybe even 3 if the damage rolls go its way
Skill Link Rock Blast hits for 250 effective base power after SE and breaks through Sash (which is a bug on Shoddy).
Standard Cloyster won't beat a bulky Froslass. For it to reliably beat it, you need max attack with Life Orb for Rock Blast to KO. It's been done, but I don't think it shapes up too well against other leads, and becomes more anti/suicidal than support.
That's going off minimum damage rolls, which is the best way to cover ones ass.
That's going off minimum damage rolls, which is the best way to cover ones ass.
I think that what he's saying. EDIT: Forgot about Rock Blast Cloyster. Anyway, leads that prevent Froslass getting Spikes up (Or too many layers, 1 is probably acceptable):
-Ambipom (Although offensive versions can 2HKO you with Ice Beam)
-Alakazam (See Ambipom)
-Electrode (Will completely signal to your opponent what kind of team you are using)
-Sneasel
-Stone Edge + Aqua Jet Kabutops (Concedes one layer)
-Rock Blast Rhyperior (Concedes one layer)
-Rock Blast Armaldo (Concedes one layer)
EDIT: Forgot about Rock Blast Cloyster. (Concedes one layer)
-Hariyama (Concedes one layer)
-Scarf Venusaur
-Scarf Moltres (Concedes one layer if said Froslass is Sash'd)
-Spiritomb (Concedes one layer)
-Jumpluff (Only reliably wins against Bulky Lass, speed ties with suicide Lass, who would OHKO you with Ice Beam should you lose the speed tie)
-Sharpedo (Concedes one layer)
-Dugtrio (Be careful of getting KO'd, will concede one layer if Froslass is Sash'd)
That list is a big part of why I don't think Froslass is broken. There are plenty of counters to suicide leadlass, unless a single layer of spikes is somehow broken. And if frossy is saved for later, well, she's just more setup fodder. Plus, spikes are optimally effective early on and start getting worse as the game goes on. (Not that they suddenly do less damage. But if they're put in to play later, then they do less good overall.)
How exactly do spikes get worse or less effective late game?. They're just as good the whole game and sometimes even better lategame IMO
I think he simply means that the earlier they are up, the more damage it is going to do to the opponent's team as a whole.
If Moltres was to get banned, do you think that many people will start running Charizard as a slightly less effective replacement? As far as the special sweeper set goes, there is very little to separate them, so I don't see why not. It also means that we have to be very careful that we ban Moltres for the right reasons, making sure it really is the culprit and judging it on the whole package rather than one specific function. Modest Charizard performs the same function as Timid Moltres almost equally well, outspeeding the same common pokes that Moltres does. The only differences with Charizard are slightly less bulk and less assurance for Chansey and co. And its Fire Blast becomes super-charged at <33%.
Does anyone else hate Uxie leads?? He's like Jirachi, you never know what kind of crap he's packing. I really hate the TrickScarf ones, especially because if you guess wrong and go to your Scarfer to absorb Trick, he might just Thunder Wave your Scarfer, making him useless.
@ Lemmiwinks -- that's actually a really good point that I haven't heard before. I've used a Moltres-esque Charizard quite a bit actually and I know others have had a bit of success with it as well (mostly thinking of Thund here heh but he's not the only one) and I agree with just about everything you've said. although there are some minor stat differences the way they play is about the same and I don't think the differences are enough to differentiate the two much from a playstyle perspective.
however it is worth noting that Moltres is 22% physically bulkier and 8% specially bulkier than Charizard which helps it capitalize a bit more on its typing. the only reason I'm pointing that out after what I said in the last paragraph is that I don't think these differences are readily apparent in battles. if Venusaur's Power Whip does more damage vs Charizard I won't notice and think "damn that did a lot" but it's possible that more/less damage could be important in the grand scheme of things. again, my gut feeling is that it's not enough of a difference, but it's something to think about at least.
in terms of suspect testing / tiering it seems like even though Moltres and Charizard sound equally dangerous, we shouldn't hold them together as a package and use this as an argument for not banning Moltres. if it has a good replacement, it doesn't make Moltres any less broken; it's just a reason that we should also consider banning Charizard. unfortunately I don't really see a way that Charizard would also end up getting banned this round, since Moltres is probably overall slightly better which means people aren't using Charizard and pure theorymon isn't a good basis for nominations/bans. what I mean is that people probably won't nominate it just because it's not being used much, not that such a nomination would be invalid just because its overall usage is low (note that I do think a nomination would be invalid if the nominator hasn't used it though, for whatever my opinion is worth). maybe if Moltres is banned and people start using Charizard, Charizard could be a suspect next round.
also could you clarify what the distinction you're drawing between the "the whole package" and "one specific function" is?
however it is worth noting that Moltres is 22% physically bulkier and 8% specially bulkier than Charizard which helps it capitalize a bit more on its typing. the only reason I'm pointing that out after what I said in the last paragraph is that I don't think these differences are readily apparent in battles. if Venusaur's Power Whip does more damage vs Charizard I won't notice and think "damn that did a lot" but it's possible that more/less damage could be important in the grand scheme of things. again, my gut feeling is that it's not enough of a difference, but it's something to think about at least.
in terms of suspect testing / tiering it seems like even though Moltres and Charizard sound equally dangerous, we shouldn't hold them together as a package and use this as an argument for not banning Moltres. if it has a good replacement, it doesn't make Moltres any less broken; it's just a reason that we should also consider banning Charizard. unfortunately I don't really see a way that Charizard would also end up getting banned this round, since Moltres is probably overall slightly better which means people aren't using Charizard and pure theorymon isn't a good basis for nominations/bans. what I mean is that people probably won't nominate it just because it's not being used much, not that such a nomination would be invalid just because its overall usage is low (note that I do think a nomination would be invalid if the nominator hasn't used it though, for whatever my opinion is worth). maybe if Moltres is banned and people start using Charizard, Charizard could be a suspect next round.
also could you clarify what the distinction you're drawing between the "the whole package" and "one specific function" is?
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