All I meant by that was we need to make sure we ban Moltres on its unique merits collectively that make it broken. I admit that sentence is sort of ambiguous, but a good example would be that if we banned Moltres instead of Froslass because it is the only thing in UU that becomes broken with that particular set with the easy Spikes support. That may end up being the best route to take anyway, but we have to make sure that other Pokemon very similar don't end up taking its place and being broken also, Charizard being a great example. There was a lot of talk before about how many Pokemon need to be made broken before naming the supporter the culprit, and this particular example fits in nicely here.
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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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All I meant by that was we need to make sure we ban Moltres on its unique merits collectively that make it broken. I admit that sentence is sort of ambiguous, but a good example would be that if we banned Moltres instead of Froslass because it is the only thing in UU that becomes broken with that particular set with the easy Spikes support. That may end up being the best route to take anyway, but we have to make sure that other Pokemon very similar don't end up taking its place and being broken also, Charizard being a great example. There was a lot of talk before about how many Pokemon need to be made broken before naming the supporter the culprit, and this particular example fits in nicely here.
Has it struck anyone that under the current definition of the Defensive characteristic Chansey (and Blissey) is BL?
To break Chansey on the special side you need some fantastic power - a lot of chances to set up (like the +5 Lanturn mentioned somewhere in this forum), or massive power (Choice Specs max SpA Gorebyss Hydro Pump with rain + 3 layers of Spikes up to 2HKO). Even super effective Focus Blasts typically don't 2HKO chansey. Chansey can wall and stall out almost all special attackers. There're a few exceptions like Mismagius with Substitute, but "few" is the keyword. It's also capable of walling and stalling out other walls if it's got Aromatherapy to stop Toxic.
Of course you can get past Chansey if you just attack it from the physical side, but that's not the point. Sweepers come in 3 varieties: physical, mixed and special. Chansey takes out a full 1/3 of them, which is certainly a significant portion, and it can do it under common battle conditions. It can even do it under uncommon battle conditions like the rain + 3 layers of Spikes mentioned above.
I get the feeling that if the defensive characteristic is defined the way it is, then Chansey is clearly BL and Blissey is Uber. Except they fairly obviously aren't, e.g. you can send in Kabutops against Chansey and Swords Dance because it can't hurt you. Just wondering what others think here, it seems to me there's a flaw in the defensive characteristic.
To break Chansey on the special side you need some fantastic power - a lot of chances to set up (like the +5 Lanturn mentioned somewhere in this forum), or massive power (Choice Specs max SpA Gorebyss Hydro Pump with rain + 3 layers of Spikes up to 2HKO). Even super effective Focus Blasts typically don't 2HKO chansey. Chansey can wall and stall out almost all special attackers. There're a few exceptions like Mismagius with Substitute, but "few" is the keyword. It's also capable of walling and stalling out other walls if it's got Aromatherapy to stop Toxic.
Of course you can get past Chansey if you just attack it from the physical side, but that's not the point. Sweepers come in 3 varieties: physical, mixed and special. Chansey takes out a full 1/3 of them, which is certainly a significant portion, and it can do it under common battle conditions. It can even do it under uncommon battle conditions like the rain + 3 layers of Spikes mentioned above.
I get the feeling that if the defensive characteristic is defined the way it is, then Chansey is clearly BL and Blissey is Uber. Except they fairly obviously aren't, e.g. you can send in Kabutops against Chansey and Swords Dance because it can't hurt you. Just wondering what others think here, it seems to me there's a flaw in the defensive characteristic.
ive used it a lot on wifi because its easier to get a good iv'd zard than moltres and it works and the blaze boost is awesome. Plus the opponent does at least have to hesitate that it isn't some other type of zard (dd, sd, bd, focus punch?)
but the loss of bulk does hurt it though. seems much more frail
The thing with Chansey is that it is a niche Pokemon. It fills a very specific role guarding against one side of the offensive spectrum. There is a difference - a significant one at that - between a niche wall that needs support, and a wall that can come in almost at will and be an insurmountable force on its own. I don't think that being able to wall one side of the attacking spectrum is significant, as opposed to walling both at once.
Agreed that Chansey is stupidly good, though it would be hard to ban it because it's so physically frail (though not as frail as people give it credit for). I'd be glad to see it gone, but from a purely metagaming standpoint, it should stay in. As a side note, on the special side, Specs Typhlosion can 2HKO it in the sun, which is basically 338 BP coming off 476 Satk. And it barely does more than half. In other words, if Explosion was special, nothing could OHKO Chansey with it. Note that the aforementioned Typhlosion will easily 2HKO Offensive Milotic, meaning Chansey is somewhere around TWICE as specially bulky as Milotic. I'm inclined to agree that the Defensive Characteristic is somewhat flawed, if only in the sense that Registeel (which is pretty much the best defensive poke in the tier) and Cradily (which walls absolutely EVERYTHING in the sand after a couple Curses) aren't banned yet.
As far as Charizard replacing Moltres, I'm dubious. That's like Vibrava taking over for Garchomp (which is an imperfect metaphor, so don't nitpick). Any extra bulkiness is super useful given the crappy defensive typing, and while Blaze is nice and Dragon Dance is an awesome move, Charizard is weaker both specially and physically (that's right, Moltres has 100 attack, while Charizard's got 84). This is theorymonning and so forth, but I really don't see Charizard recapturing the magic, and I aboslutely cannot see it being banned.
As far as Charizard replacing Moltres, I'm dubious. That's like Vibrava taking over for Garchomp (which is an imperfect metaphor, so don't nitpick). Any extra bulkiness is super useful given the crappy defensive typing, and while Blaze is nice and Dragon Dance is an awesome move, Charizard is weaker both specially and physically (that's right, Moltres has 100 attack, while Charizard's got 84). This is theorymonning and so forth, but I really don't see Charizard recapturing the magic, and I aboslutely cannot see it being banned.
Banedon said:
By that logic, a lot of Pokémon in UU (and in OU) can switch in on a variety of opponents and blow a hole in the opponent's team, and many of them can do so over and over again. Do they fit the Offensive Characteristic?
The characteristics were made intentionally vague so that they wouldn't define how we think about Pokémon, but rather would merely provide a guideline to help explain how a Pokémon is broken.
EDIT: Narulyg: I don't think most people can really judge how good special Charizard is, simply because Moltres has been the better choice all the way. Just because Charizard is outclassed, that doesn't mean a lot in terms of how much worse Charizard is.
Charizard replacing Moltres...
Charizard does a get a better... WAY better movepool and versatility than Moltres, but lacks bulk. And power...
Maybe power isn't exactly the word... anyone used SubPetaya Charizard yet?
Plus, Charizard is faster and can go physical (Moltres has more atk... so what? It can't use it effectively at all) with lots of options(Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Belly Drum?)
But yes, Moltres hits harder right off the bat, and it's bulk, it's annoying, it's... better.
Charizard does a get a better... WAY better movepool and versatility than Moltres, but lacks bulk. And power...
Maybe power isn't exactly the word... anyone used SubPetaya Charizard yet?
Plus, Charizard is faster and can go physical (Moltres has more atk... so what? It can't use it effectively at all) with lots of options(Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Belly Drum?)
But yes, Moltres hits harder right off the bat, and it's bulk, it's annoying, it's... better.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but for further clarification, I'd like to point out that it isn't. Arcanine is quite blatantly broken with that same amount of support and can expect a clean sweep once the hazards are set up.
It's worth noting that Spikes can be applied to any argument to make a sweeper BL-worthy, mostly because we know by now that Froslass will indisputably set them up and Moltres is one of the few Pokemon with both the speed and power to take advantage of it. Arcanine works along that same vein, only it has a lot more to work with and can actually pull off a sweep rather than just killing one or two Pokemon at a time.
I would definetely prefer a metagame with Charizard over Moltres. A pokemon who is less powerful/bulkier but can be far more versatile.
Charizard himself isn't THAT bad in UU but why would I use him over Moltres currently? Of course this is pure theorymon.
Edit: Also how is Chansey stupidly good? She literally has 0 attacking option besides Seismic toss, (Blissey's got a decent SpA stat) and is complete setup fodder for Sub Missy/Aggron/Sweeper immune to toxic. It's poor physical defense means that nearly any physical attack can KO and is forced switch out many times. It's nowhere near game changing.
Charizard himself isn't THAT bad in UU but why would I use him over Moltres currently? Of course this is pure theorymon.
Edit: Also how is Chansey stupidly good? She literally has 0 attacking option besides Seismic toss, (Blissey's got a decent SpA stat) and is complete setup fodder for Sub Missy/Aggron/Sweeper immune to toxic. It's poor physical defense means that nearly any physical attack can KO and is forced switch out many times. It's nowhere near game changing.
People (mostly idiots) have wanted Blissey banned since the dawn of time. So yes.
This statement is incorrect (or Blissey would have been banned). It walls "a third", more or less, but the other two thirds completely rips it to shreds (they don't even have to be sweepers to do that). Some of the first third can even beat it in various ways. The bottom line Chansey simply isn't that hard to defeat once you get over the fact that it's probably going to wall your special sweeper.
The definition isn't that precise, I'll give you that. Significant is meant to be up to interpretation based on the metagame.
You clearly didn't take more than a glance at Lemmiwinks' statement or you would realize that what you're saying is complete nonsense. Modest Charizard is 6 points slower and 1 point less powerful that Timid Moltres. That's hardly worthy of a Vibrava-Garchomp comparison (not metaphor). And Moltres' Attack really goes far considering it has U-turn, Aerial Ace, and exactly zero STAB Fire moves at its disposal, while Charizard has a phenomenal all around movepool.
as far as a set of fire blast /HP grass /air slash /roost charizard and moltres essentially have the same pure damage output if the use modest and timid respectively. however moltres has better defences (listed in HP/def/SpD)
moltres:321/216/206
charizard:297/192/206
not to mention moltres sub/toxic/roost/flamethrower set is most likely going to be much, MUCH more effective than any physical set charizard is going to be running
moltres:321/216/206
charizard:297/192/206
not to mention moltres sub/toxic/roost/flamethrower set is most likely going to be much, MUCH more effective than any physical set charizard is going to be running
That second statement is basically just comparing apples to oranges. However, let's say Charizard fills Moltres' role pretty well and people start using it that way when Moltres is banned (which may or may not happen). I think that would open up a lot of possibilities for Charizard on the physical side of things. It does have 3 moves to boost its Attack, after all, which would force your opponent into a deadly guessing game which they could pay dearly for if they lose. Basically you can get fucked very easily if you mispredict against it, whereas Moltres doesn't have that same unpredictability. That and Chansey makes for a terrible Charizard check. I think it has a lot of potential, personally.
Moltres isn't a suspect and never should of been. It is " broken" with 2+ layers of Spikes and SR. If spikes is what is making Moltres broken then ban Spikes because the move is the issue not the Pokemon.
There are basically(omit) no suspects this time around and yet people still point a finger at a Pokemon and say suspect... then a pointless discussion comes about. Stick that finger up your nose, Finger Pointers! Stop lubing the already slippery slope.
There are basically(omit) no suspects this time around and yet people still point a finger at a Pokemon and say suspect... then a pointless discussion comes about. Stick that finger up your nose, Finger Pointers! Stop lubing the already slippery slope.
I was using a SubPetayaSunnyBeam Charizard and it worked out way better for me than Moltres ever did. Assuming the same support we are for Moltres, Charizard 2hkos Chansey, ohkos most Milotic, and in a nice twist of fate outruns and ohkos Moltres. Honestly, there was never enough to differentiate Moltres from Magmortar or Charizard in my eyes, definitely not enough to consider it broken and those others not. Edit: Incidentally, has anyone noticed the massive spike in Kabutops lead usage?
Doesn't Typhlosion overshaodow him there?
Typhlosion has the exact same stats same moves (for the set) and has a 25% weakness to SR.
Edit: Okay not strictly overshadowed. He has an immunity to ground at the cost of a 4X weak to SR.
It basically relegates him to endgame sweeper only.
And yeah I've noticed to. it's pretty useful and it'll be a damn shame if he ever gets banned.
I tried Phlosion as well, but Charizard's EQ immunity and, importantly, his Mach Punch/Vwave resistance, was superior.
Sadly Dragon Dance and Swords Dance are completely wrecked by Milotic and Slowbro. And Altaria can keep Roaring you out with you only using two moves like Fire Punch/Earthquake. But I must admit that Bellyzard is a forgotten threat that can definitely sweep teams if giving the chance.
Incidentally, has anyone else noticed the MASSIVE spike in Kabutops lead usage? Makes sense, as it's one of the few leads who can handle both Froslass and Ambipom without instantly losing to Uxie/Alakazam/Moltres, but the amount of them is really amazing. Maybe I'm just playing the same people (and their alts) but it seems like it's the third most common lead right now.
diesel said:
Yes the statement is incorrect, and I personally don't want Chansey banned (although the pink blob is stupidly annoying at times). The problem is that if you look at it mathematically there's no escaping that Chansey "is BL".
Say Pokemon come in one of three kinds: sweeper, support and wall, and that all three are equally numerous (clearly not the case, but bear with me). Chansey will usually wall walls like Registeel pretty well, as well as most support Pokemon like Uxie. It then goes on to wall 1/3 of sweepers, which means it walls approximately (and conservatively) 2/3 of all Pokemon. This is a very significant number. Even if we consider that there are Registeel sets which beat Chansey (just like there exists a Raikou set that beats Chansey), then Chansey still walls 1/3 of all Pokemon.
Now compared to 1 (all Pokemon), 1/3 is a significant number. If you measure something and report it as 1 +- 1/3 there's a lot more to learn about that something. So if we agree it's a "significant" number, and we agree that Chansey can "wall and stall out" that significant number (which it can), and finally we agree it can do it under "common battle conditions" (which it also can), then Chansey is patently BL.
I think there's a flaw in the definition. As a definition, it can't really afford to be vague, can it?
@capefeather - actually come to think of it, yes there is. Swellow's Guts boosted Facades are going to OHKO 1/3 of the metagame easily, which by the OC would make Swellow BL. Actually under the OC Swellow would be BL even if someone ran Registeel, Aggron and Regirock so long as the remaining three Pokemon are easily swept by Swellow. Why does the definition say "significant portion of teams in the metagame" instead of "significant portion of the metagame" like the DC anyway?
Bluewind has been itching me to use LO Raikou, and to be honest, I've never used Raikou religiously ever since it entered the UU tier. I finally got the time to use it on my main ladder team, and I have to say its perhaps one of the most broken offensive Pokemon, and its a true nightmare for offensive teams in particular. Stall teams require a bit of support to actually have Raikou working, but the thing that attracted me the most is the sheer dominance it has against offensive teams. I don't like to make “bold statements” but Raikou is the Gallade of stall to offense.
Yeah I have massive problems with Raikou on most of my teams. It's just very difficult to prepare for it on offense without running one of the five viable Pokemon faster than it or without using some variant of stall/semi-stall. I don't know that it's "broken" quite yet but I certainly have way more problems with it than I do with anything else at the moment. And regarding that Blastoise lead, Surf/Hydro Pump would work fine in the last slot as a pure anti-lead. That lets you handle Ambi.
Seems like offensive teams aren't using enough Dugtrio or Sceptile, which they should as they are now great offensive Pokemon again after Cress' departure. RP Torterra also, helped greatly by Rhyperior who 'distracts' Raikou from using a super-effective Hidden Power. I swear that thing is as deadly as ever, as most teams outside of pure stall still aren't carrying reliable answers to it.
@ Blastoise set: I've used something similar before, but with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam over Water Spout and support move, and different EVs. Water Spout on something as slow as Blastoise never appealed to me, especially if not planning to invest in speed at all. I would aim to beat min speed Uxie at worst if going with that, which I probably wouldn't anyway.
No I was saying your number of significant pokemon was off. 1/3 is not "a significant portion of the metagame", and (again) especially since the 2/3 destroys it. And it's not even remotely fair to say it walls walls. It doesn't even wall the walls you listed. Registeel has Explosion and Uxie can just set up whatever the hell it wants. You're also overlooking the fact that the metagame is very physical. I went through and counted how many pokemon it actually walled and it was about 18/54 or exactly 1/3. And I was generous with stuff like Moltres. Not significant enough. Not centralizing. Not a suspect.
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