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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

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Yes, I have. They're not threatening in any way outside of Spikes, whereas Froslass is faster, can actually kill something before it gets hit, and is not as easily forced out. The threat of Destiny Bond or a special attack is enough to keep some of Froslass's enemies at by. Omastar and Cloyster are much slower and are forced out much easier. And if you want to keep those Spikes, you have to run two other Ghosts to make sure you keep them (this was a common technique in the tour battles) where as Froslass IS a Ghost and doesn't have to do anything other than sit there and laugh while she sets her minefield.

I've used Omastar and it's not a bad Spiker, but it's not better than Froslass. Getting 2-3 layers is non-negotiable with her. Many can argue that "it's ONLY better because of blah blah blah" but in reality, it just is. Omastar and Cloyster haven't caused any controversy as of yet because they're quite clearly overshadowed by Froslass, and for good reason.

I think there's a lot of things that make Froslass's spiking unique. The Speed is a huge, seemingly underrated one - it's that stat that ensures she gets two layers against basically everything with a Sash, after all. The ghost type, too, is huge because of the thing with the spinners. I think Omastar is greatly undervalued (and I'm really happy to see so many teams resorting to it with Froslass still in the game) since it is a much better Pokemon at contributing to your team beyond getting Spikes up (well, being a spin blocker vs. being able to do slightly better damage and being able to take physical hits and counter a few Pokemon, anyway).

I honestly never ran anything outside of Shell Armor. With no investment, Omastar is still outsped by all rain abusers, Electrode, Raikou and list goes on; so I really see no benefits of using Swift Swim over Shell Armor.

As someone who plays about half my games with Rain, I definitely prefer enemy Omastar to be running Swift Swim. It's been mentioned, but all my sweepers are going to outrun a defensive Omastar anyway, and more importantly, I'd say about half of Rain teams lead Uxie. It gets to U-turn after the Surf and bring a sweeper in for free if you have Swift Swim. I think we can all agree Shell Armor is (duh) the better trait if you aren't running rain yourself, and since it's better for rain if you have it... why would you ever run it? The only thing it really helps against is secondary rain set-up mons - though one potential option for that in Electrode outruns you anyway, and some others like Registeel are slower regardless.

Btw, not wanting to kick up a shitstorm again, but of the three current teams in tour finals, two got there with RD teams (please do not start the quote war and say x haxed y who haxed z; as all I'm putting here are facts).

I can't speak for Deep Thought's Smogon Tour journey, and I was gone during the UU tour during week 3 (thought I think it was telling that there was no rain whining about/during the tour in this thread or the rain thread, since I DID read them from my Blackberry on a boat ride one day), but I do feel like I can speak pretty intelligently about my own path today, at least. And I really should, since you've indirectly mentioned me.

I had two matches where I ended up down to my last Pokemon with some luck involved both ways in each. I had at least four matches that were determined by one side or the other making a handful of better predictions than the other (win vs. HR, loss vs. AM were where it was most noticeable). There were no matches I won by more than 3-0 (except for the exhibition for 2nd, which was rain vs. rain with Deep Thought, anyway). Two opponents had Toxicroaks, both made decisions with them they'd probably not do again if given the opportunity. I had pretty decent luck (I don't feel it changed the results of any matches, but it was definitely on my side throughout the night) in several matches. I also know for a fact that there were at least six other users using Rain, none of which made it far enough to be noteworthy.

It's worth noting that I fought AM a couple days ago on the ladder and did significantly better with my non rain team (I think he had one mon left with 50%ish, whereas today's match I believe was 0-3, though it was largely determined by him making better predictions against my Ludicolo than I made with it). He went as far to say he thought I would have been better off with my normal team (though I suppose users aware of the history know better than to put too much stock into what either of us said to the other, I guess).

What I'm saying is that I didn't play any matches where OMGRAIN steamrolled through my opposition. All the matches were close, there were decent bits of time in most of them where I didn't have control, and in every match I had today (including and especially in my loss), the team that made the better predictions won. I don't think any of my opponents would tell you they lost to me because I happened to be using rain (except maybe HR, apparently. lol).

It's a strategy like any other, I won when I played better than my opponent and lost when I played worse. I would agree it's powerful enough you Damp Rock being a suspect wouldn't be completely unreasonable, but what is unreasonable is the whining a lot of supposedly competent players do about it.
 
I think there's a lot of things that make Froslass's spiking unique. The Speed is a huge, seemingly underrated one - it's that stat that ensures she gets two layers against basically everything with a Sash, after all. The ghost type, too, is huge because of the thing with the spinners. I think Omastar is greatly undervalued (and I'm really happy to see so many teams resorting to it with Froslass still in the game) since it is a much better Pokemon at contributing to your team beyond getting Spikes up (well, being a spin blocker vs. being able to do slightly better damage and being able to take physical hits and counter a few Pokemon, anyway).



As someone who plays about half my games with Rain, I definitely prefer enemy Omastar to be running Swift Swim. It's been mentioned, but all my sweepers are going to outrun a defensive Omastar anyway, and more importantly, I'd say about half of Rain teams lead Uxie. It gets to U-turn after the Surf and bring a sweeper in for free if you have Swift Swim. I think we can all agree Shell Armor is (duh) the better trait if you aren't running rain yourself, and since it's better for rain if you have it... why would you ever run it? The only thing it really helps against is secondary rain set-up mons - though one potential option for that in Electrode outruns you anyway, and some others like Registeel are slower regardless.



I can't speak for Deep Thought's Smogon Tour journey, and I was gone during the UU tour during week 3 (thought I think it was telling that there was no rain whining about/during the tour in this thread or the rain thread, since I DID read them from my Blackberry on a boat ride one day), but I do feel like I can speak pretty intelligently about my own path today, at least. And I really should, since you've indirectly mentioned me.

I had two matches where I ended up down to my last Pokemon with some luck involved both ways in each. I had at least four matches that were determined by one side or the other making a handful of better predictions than the other (win vs. HR, loss vs. AM were where it was most noticeable). There were no matches I won by more than 3-0 (except for the exhibition for 2nd, which was rain vs. rain with Deep Thought, anyway). Two opponents had Toxicroaks, both made decisions with them they'd probably not do again if given the opportunity. I had pretty decent luck (I don't feel it changed the results of any matches, but it was definitely on my side throughout the night) in several matches. I also know for a fact that there were at least six other users using Rain, none of which made it far enough to be noteworthy.

It's worth noting that I fought AM a couple days ago on the ladder and did significantly better with my non rain team (I think he had one mon left with 50%ish, whereas today's match I believe was 0-3, though it was largely determined by him making better predictions against my Ludicolo than I made with it). He went as far to say he thought I would have been better off with my normal team (though I suppose users aware of the history know better than to put too much stock into what either of us said to the other, I guess).

What I'm saying is that I didn't play any matches where OMGRAIN steamrolled through my opposition. All the matches were close, there were decent bits of time in most of them where I didn't have control, and in every match I had today (including and especially in my loss), the team that made the better predictions won. I don't think any of my opponents would tell you they lost to me because I happened to be using rain (except maybe HR, apparently. lol).

It's a strategy like any other, I won when I played better than my opponent and lost when I played worse. I would agree it's powerful enough you Damp Rock being a suspect wouldn't be completely unreasonable, but what is unreasonable is the whining a lot of supposedly competent players do about it.

lol nah i was just messing around. I lost simply because i got outplayed/predicted. when playing against rain (who is a good player), you have to make perfect predictions though I can say the rain user has to do the same. Its pretty much a toss up.
 
Omastar, Cloyster, and Qwilfish can threaten ALL rapid spinners with Explosion and/or Stab moves respectively. So built-in spin blocking isn't all that you guys make it up to be.
 
I know Roserade is a bit off-topic, but honestly, it was probably going to be voted BL pretty damn soon if it didn't make OU anyway. The LO set was so difficult to deal with because it could just put your counter to sleep. LO Roserade could beat Chansey via Leaf Storm -> Sleep Powder -> Switch to thing that threatens Chansey, at which point Chansey will have to switch out and no longer be able to check it. Registeel was dealt with in a similar way. Basically, give Moltres a sleep move, much better typing, more special bulk, and the ability to function as a Spiker, and you have Roserade.
 
Also, I'm really starting to side towards rain being broken. In the hands of an experienced player, rain is nearly impossible to stop. They control the momentum the entire game, and smart switches aren't even viable half the time because most rain sweepers can just stat up in your face. I'm still on the fence, but as of now, I'm leaning more towards Damp Rock being BL.

*Sign* I thought I didn't have to say this again, but looks like my hopes were to high. A good <Insert theme/archetype> team in the hands of an experienced player is always going difficult to stop!! This, however, is not an indication that is broken in any means. Rain is probably one of the riskiest playstyles to play (Around the same risk as HO), in the fact that if things do not go your way, you are absolutely fucked. You really don't have to make perfect predictions every turn, and I'm quite sure my Warstory shows that (I made three critical errors in that match). As long as you yourself don't play like an idiot, Rain is not going to be any easier against you than any other playstyle/archetype. Incidentally, I can do this too:

Also, I'm really starting to side towards Hyper Offense being broken. In the hands of an experienced player, Hyper Offense is nearly impossible to stop. They control the momentum the entire game, and smart switches aren't even viable half the time because most Hyper Offense sweepers can just stat up in your face. I'm still on the fence, but as of now, I'm leaning more towards Life Orb being BL.

I can do this too:

Also, I'm really starting to side towards Stall being broken. In the hands of an experienced player, Stall is nearly impossible to penetrate. They control the momentum the entire game, and smart switches aren't even viable half the time because most Stall loves you to switch so you eat residual damage. I'm still on the fence, but as of now, I'm leaning more towards Leftovers being BL.
 
I know Roserade is a bit off-topic, but honestly, it was probably going to be voted BL pretty damn soon if it didn't make OU anyway. The LO set was so difficult to deal with because it could just put your counter to sleep. LO Roserade could beat Chansey via Leaf Storm -> Sleep Powder -> Switch to thing that threatens Chansey, at which point Chansey will have to switch out and no longer be able to check it. Registeel was dealt with in a similar way. Basically, give Moltres a sleep move, much better typing, more special bulk, and the ability to function as a Spiker, and you have Roserade.

I don't believe Roserade was broken at all. Now with Raikou and Alakazam I think it would fit perfectly.

Anyways, Nasty Plot Beat Up Houndoom is still as awesome as ever, and makes Houndooms counters what...Milotic and revenge killing? And Milotic can get flinched. Stall just cries.
 
And when UU Hyper Offense has access to Deoxys-A, you'll have made a relevant point. Until then, the fact remains that rain sweepers are absurdly and disproportionately powerful and fast, which results in the metagame for offense/bulky offense teams centralizing itself around the three or so viable water absorbers and multiple water resists in order to stand even a chance against them.
 
Omastar, Cloyster, and Qwilfish can threaten ALL rapid spinners with Explosion and/or Stab moves respectively. So built-in spin blocking isn't all that you guys make it up to be.

Except Hitmontop, Donphan, Kabutops, AND Blastoise all survive Explosion (from non-LO Cloyster anyway, and LO is a completely different type of Spikes user).

Not to mention, something can come in and just lolRapid Spin while any of the other Spikers are Spiking. You simply cannot be spun against before your Spikes abuser gets sent out with Froslass.
 
Not to mention that Froslass' Ghost typing protects her from Fake Out. Without it, you can't break her sash without allowing her a layer of spikes. Otherwise, Fake Out + Return from Ambipom would make Froslass a total non-issue.
 
If you see Ambipom in the lead, just switch. It's obviously going to Taunt you and if it uses Pursuit, you're fucked.
 
You know what else tickles my fancy? If Roserade were to be re-added to UU she along with Tangrowth could effectively counter rain dance period.


Choice Scarf Roserade is fast enough to outspeed all of the special rain sweepers and OHKO with her move of choice and Tangrowth can take on Kabutops with ease.

Although the more I read about her life orb set, the more I think it's a tad overpowered... (It's hard to switch into and doesn't have a nasty SR weakness) coupled with Synthesis makes her harder to deal with.

I don't think she is a broken spikes user however due to Froslass simply being better.

Better overall bulk, speed, and can can spin block.
 
I don't think she is a broken spikes user however due to Froslass simply being better.

Better overall bulk, speed, and can can spin block.

Then you have never ever played Spikes-Roserade in UU. For example an simple set with 252HP, 252 SDef, 6Spd with GK, {Fire}, Spikes, Synthesis
can set up spikes on nearly every Special Attacker who doesnt pack a STAB SE attack with an good SpA-Stat.
I found it quite ridicolous how easy she set up spikes in my stall teams.
Back then, she was the best Spiker....
 
It's interesting to see how Grass, despite being considered a "poor" type, has dominated UU. We had Roserade and Shaymin back in the day, and now Venusaur is no. 1 in the tier.

Speaking of Roserade, it was sexy. The LO set was a monster, while I never really had trouble with the spiker.
If it were dropped down again, I think it might fit in well. Of course, Venusaur would be out of a job, but... yeah.

hi i'm back
 
It's interesting to see how Grass, despite being considered a "poor" type, has dominated UU. We had Roserade and Shaymin back in the day, and now Venusaur is no. 1 in the tier.

Speaking of Roserade, it was sexy. The LO set was a monster, while I never really had trouble with the spiker.
If it were dropped down again, I think it might fit in well. Of course, Venusaur would be out of a job, but... yeah.

hi i'm back

Venusaur still has his SD set. It's still pretty lethal.

Then you have never ever played Spikes-Roserade in UU. For example an simple set with 252HP, 252 SDef, 6Spd with GK, {Fire}, Spikes, Synthesis
can set up spikes on nearly every Special Attacker who doesnt pack a STAB SE attack with an good SpA-Stat.
I found it quite ridicolous how easy she set up spikes in my stall teams.
Back then, she was the best Spiker....

You raise a very valid point. Sigh...
 
Omastar is one bulky mofo. This thing took 70% from a +6 Granbull's Return. I know it resists it, but I mean, +6? I know plenty of other Rock-types could do this, but during set-up, I got down three layers of Spikes to add to my previously set Rocks, which helped me secure the win. Plus, the set-up was BP'd Curses, so Omastar outsped for the 2HKO (if you're wondering why I didn't switch during the Curse set-ups, I was Mean Looked).

hi i'm back

welcome back
 
It's interesting to see how Grass, despite being considered a "poor" type, has dominated UU. We had Roserade and Shaymin back in the day, and now Venusaur is no. 1 in the tier.

Well, most Steel- and Dragon-types are OU, which the Grass-type absolutely fails against. All the good Bug-types are also banned from UU (Yanmega, Heracross, etc), so Grass doesn't have to deal with so many Pokemon that demolish them. Flying and Fire Pokemon are still pretty common in UU though. Another reason why Grass is also common is because of the Grass-Fire-Water core (and if you look at the usage stats, Venusaur pairs very well on balance teams with the top Water and Fire pokes, Milotic and Arcanine). Speaking of Milotic, the only way you're actually gonna kill that damn thing is with a Grass attack since STAB Thunderbolt users are so few and far between. The last reason why Grass Pokemon are so useful is because of their utility. I'm thinking Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Aromatherapy, etc..

Now, I wouldn't really call it a Grass dominated metagame just because Venusaur is #1 currently. If anything is dominating the metagame right now its spikestacking. Cresselia was definitely making the metagame into a Psychic/Dark fiasco though and it was most likely going to dethrone Venusaur if it stayed (heck, I bet the February stats would probably reveal Cress > Venusaur usage wise).
 
Well with venusaurs being everywhere... what are u guys switching into... knowing there is a pretty damn good chance its going to sleep powder?

u guys running dedicated sleep talkers? lum berry users?
 
RestTalk Altaria was my one-stop Venusaur counter. I don't use it anymore because I'm using troll teams and seeing how high I can get my rating while using "shitty" Pokemon (apparently pretty fucking high) but it definitely shut down pretty much any venusaur I ran into (to the point where several people raged and put HP Ice on theirs lol).
 
I use RestTalk Arcanine because it obliterates Venusaur. I know it has Morning Sun, but Rest allows it to be a status absorber and an excellent Venusaur. Plus, Morning Sun Arcanine are usually offensive, but I wanted to use a defensive Arcanine to take advantage of its decent defensive stats, Roar, and Intimidate.

Oh, and I'm thinking of using a RestTalk Milotic also. As a secondary attack, I was thinking of running the incredibly unorthodox Dragon Pulse because of the perfect neutral coverage it gets in UU combined with Surf. I wasn't sure if it was more important to be able to get rid of Grass- and Dragon-types with Ice Beam or Water-types with HP Grass/Electric. I figured that since you always get walled by the other type, I would pick Dragon Pulse to hit all three, just not Super Effectively on Water or Grass. Do you guys think this is a good idea or a bad idea?
 
Yeah, I just let it sleep a death fodder, or my Uxie that has almost always used Trick and SR already.

I used that Restalk an Arcanine set last metagame and didn't like it very much. I didn't like a self-damaging Fire attack being the only source of attcking, and roar shuffling was only really useful late-game when spikes and SR were all down. That's just my opinion though I know franky likes using it as well. In general I just don't like how limited Restalkers are, they screw up momentum pretty badly, and I like the 'keeping momentum' style of play that I use.
 
i use swellow. swellow often is the 1st swich in after my scarf venusaur sleeps somthing so i can always stop a venusaur from sleeping me.
 
i use swellow. swellow often is the 1st swich in after my scarf venusaur sleeps somthing so i can always stop a venusaur from sleeping me.

I have a feeling at least 33.3% of ladder players do the exact same thing.

Anyways, I find myself running almost all special sweepers on my team nowadays. It's just so easy to get passed Chansey that after it goes down pretty much any team just gets obliterated. Anyone else tried out special heavy offense?
 
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