np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

[Smurf.]

In the past, i have used every Raikou set under the sun, LOkou, Subkou, Restalk, Beast of Choice etc. and to be honest they don't stike me as 'phenomenal' and hence BL. It's comparable with Moltres, who is stopped cold by X special wall, whether that be Registeel, Chansey, Lanturn, Venusaur (and more). I think it would be unwise to just rattle off its movepool and say 'well that beats all its checks'. It only has a set amount of offensive moves, usually 2-3 in conjunction with CM or sub. Every set is hard countered or at least not ridiculously difficult to play around. No one set is broken, so i don't see how it should be BL. Every powerful mon can run multiple sets, it's hardly an issue singularly associated with Raikou. Anyway, the metagame already revolves too much around stall, and culling yet another decent offensive threat to stall would be unwise in the interest of the UU meta.

just my 2c

 

[FlareBlitz]

Raikou isn't really a threat to stall. That's not the argument here. The argument is that Raikou is a major threat to offense. Keeping it in the tier actually makes offense less viable, which seems to be the opposite of what you want.

 

[Smurf.]

Raikou isn't really a threat to stall. That's not the argument here. The argument is that Raikou is a major threat to offense. Keeping it in the tier actually makes offense less viable, which seems to be the opposite of what you want.

As long as one is playing offense properly, there should be little to no opportunity for raikou to succesfully set up. Even against a bulky water (i.e Azumarill) it has trouble Setting up a CM. Not like it can come in anyway, it takes ~ 70% from Waterfall and a further 35% from AJ. It can't even come in and revenge SDsaur as it cant even KO with LO extrasensory straight up. The weakest part of an offensive team (in terms of damage output) would be the one or two semi defensive pivots. Lets take a look at two of the most common ones, Encore Clefable and Trick Scarf Uxie, both of which can comfortably outplay Raikou.

 

[Bluewind]

Think of Moltres, a common poké in offensive teams. Raikou can either come in after it KOes something or switch into Air Slash or HP Grass; enabling the given situation. From there, you can either risk staying in and using Fire Blast, expecting a CM (which won't OHKO anyway) or go to a poke like Donphan or Venusaur. Either way, if you predict wrong, you'll be losing a pokémon at least.

 

[Ekanselttar]

I haven't played with Raikou since I was a wee little nublet. So I tossed Raikou onto one of my HO teams. Holy crap on a stick, Raikou is not OK in UU. CM/Thunderbolt/HP Water/Extrasensory is extremely powerful. Raikou can come in on pretty much any special poke, toss off a CM, scoff at the scratch it receives, KO the Venusaur that comes in to sleep it, and go on its merry way. I urge anyone who has their doubts (as I did) to give the set a spin. It absolutely wrecks offense.

 

[Lil Niglet]

Let me ask again: If Raikou is so broken, why has it not been voted BL yet?

 

[Godsend]

I've been using a sort of "cookie cutter" UU team (Omastar/Blastiose/Swellow/Moltres/Dugtrio/Raikou) and wanted to point out how big of a bitch Tangrowth is in the Sun. I lose almost every match I play against sun, because of that, thank god Sun isn't too common or I'd never get a decent CRE.

 

[alamaster]

Let me ask again: If Raikou is so broken, why has it not been voted BL yet?

It sometimes takes several tests to show that a pokemon is broken. This was actually answered before but Cress overshadowed Raikou in the last test and as such it went under the radar a bit. Not to mention people could have been lazy with paragraphs and not bother to vote. It takes a while for some pokemon to be perceived as broken (eg. Garchomp).

 

[Smurf.]

I haven't played with Raikou since I was a wee little nublet. So I tossed Raikou onto one of my HO teams. Holy crap on a stick, Raikou is not OK in UU. CM/Thunderbolt/HP Water/Extrasensory is extremely powerful. Raikou can come in on pretty much any special poke, toss off a CM, scoff at the scratch it receives, KO the Venusaur that comes in to sleep it, and go on its merry way. I urge anyone who has their doubts (as I did) to give the set a spin. It absolutely wrecks offense.

Sorry, i dont mean to be rude or anything, but did those people just lie down and let you walk all over them? I've played offense religiously over the past three metagames and Raikou has never ever been an issue on its own. The only time a raikou has seriously beat me in recent times was Stallion and his Restalk set. Not through its own "phenomenal offensive capabilities" , but the support from hazards such as froslass' spikes.


There are far more pressing issues to be looked at.. *cough* Damp rock *cough* Frosswhore *cough*.

 

[Godsend]

Just because you haven't had an issue with it doesn't mean that it's not broken.
There were people that were fine with Cress in the meta, but that doesn't mean that it's not broken.

 

[Rolf]

I have said it before, and I will say it again.

It seriously does not matter nearly as much if something doesn't bother you. I don't care if you play offense and you aren't swept regularly by CM+3 attack Raikou. You try sticking it on your offensive team and give it a chance. If you find yourself winning >25% of your game with it on offense, that is pretty freaking dominant if you ask me, especially when you have things like Scyther and Swellow hanging around on offense that can sweep on their own accord also, attributing to Raikou sweeping a "low" 25% of teams.

I would have voted Raikou BL last period but I didn't feel it got a fair test due to Cressy being in the metagame. The offensive characteristic states that with little or no support Raikou can sweep a majority of teams. That little support is Dugtrio. He traps and kills all of Raikou's common "stall" counters (e.g. Registeel, Chansey) and disposes of most of the offensive threats quite handily.

 

[Golden Sun]

The I don't like about using Duggy is that it can't reliably take out Chansey without a CB and then it turns into massive set up bait for any flying type

 

[shrang]

Now see here there's no need for that. (I think you just shattered my pride 0_0)

Anywho, I think Raikou's most destructive set is: Calm Mind, Thunder Bolt, Subsitute, and Hidden power grass.

Yeah my bad on the 5 moveslot thing but this set can literally tear teams apart.

@ Shrang, you state that Raikou is comparable to Gyarados but I disagree. Raikou forces me to drastically make alterations to my team in order to succeed (much like Moltres...) and it's overcentralizing the metagame in my opinion. (again, I don't enjoy running Registeel, Chansey and the like [like Flare blitz has mentioned])

I like a healthy metagame, and Raikou is like a canker sore.

And Gyarados isn't?? Why do think so many people run Rotom-A or Celebi whatever the hell counters Gyarados?? You can say Raikou can get past different counters with different sets, but so can Gyara. CB Gyara (Do not laugh, it has proven to work) OHKOs Rotom-A with Payback on the switch, Celebi gets owned by Bounce (Don't laugh at this either, it does work).

Overcentralising is never a trait that defines a Pokemon to be Uber/BL anyways, otherwise we would have seen Scizor get banned ages ago. While you say it forces you to drastically make changes to your team, what is to say that you should have made your team with Raikou in mind in the first place?? One could make a team, and find out "Oh crikey, I'm quite weak to Pokemon X, which means I have to change my team, so therefore Pokemon X is bound to Uber/BL??" While Raikou is a beast (I personally don't like it much either), he is perfectly manageable. If you're using Offense, you should be prepared to sac things against threats to win anyway. Raikou cannot get past Stall without going extraordinary lengths which would make him very susceptible to be beaten by any other team (See Cro-Raikou).

It seems to me that the current UU ladderers are quite ban-happy with Pokemon/items that are quite manageable. Just because your style of play or whatever has troubles with a threat doesn't mean that threat has to be broken. I have posted this before, but I think it is approprate to do it again. This are two extracts from the CAP metagame analysis on Smog5:

Colossoil really has no concrete counter, but the term "counter" is thrown around so loosely nowadays, and people think that having no counters instantly puts it in the Uber position. However, when comparing it to a Pokémon like Gengar who also has no concrete "counter", it is apparent that having no concrete counters does not make a Pokemon broken.

It shifts the metagame, so it's broken, you say? Tell that to Blissey, who effectively walls the majority of special sweepers in the game.

I know CAP is a completely different metagame, but the argument can be applied to pretty much any game you want to play. Having no concrete counters does not automatically indicate that a Pokemon is broken, neither is the fact that it is metagame shifting. Metagame shifting will always occur. While you may find such a metagame "not fun", it does not necessarily mean that the metagame is unbalanced.

 

[Heysup]

Let me ask again: If Raikou is so broken, why has it not been voted BL yet?

If George Bush is such a bad president, then why was he voted into the white house?

Not that I'm suggesting the Raikou-UU voters made half as bad of a mistake, but I merely wanted to point out that this question is completely irrelevant.

It's called subjectivity. People have their opinions. We aren't asking for people to vote on a math question that has a definite answer, we are asking people to vote based on their opinions. Regardless of the validity of a stance on a suspect (or anything really), there is always the possibility that more people feel that way then the (in my opinion) more valid stance.

The I don't like about using Duggy is that it can't reliably take out Chansey without a CB and then it turns into massive set up bait for any flying type

Use Life Orb Beat Up. It will almost always OHKO Chansey even with just four (not necessarily physical) Pokemon.

Overcentralising is never a trait that defines a Pokemon to be Uber/BL anyways, otherwise we would have seen Scizor get banned ages ago. While you say it forces you to drastically make changes to your team, what is to say that you should have made your team with Raikou in mind in the first place?? One could make a team, and find out "Oh crikey, I'm quite weak to Pokemon X, which means I have to change my team, so therefore Pokemon X is bound to Uber/BL??" While Raikou is a beast (I personally don't like it much either), he is perfectly manageable. If you're using Offense, you should be prepared to sac things against threats to win anyway. Raikou cannot get past Stall without going extraordinary lengths which would make him very susceptible to be beaten by any other team (See Cro-Raikou).

The difference is that when you are forced to use an otherwise shitty Pokemon to counter Raikou, you know you have a problem (read: Kyogre can be countered by Ludicolo in Ubers) because that Pokemon makes you intensely vulnerable to other Pokemon / very easy to pass removable by other Pokemon.

And Raikou easily beats stall with SubCM. Of course I mean relatively easy compared to most other sweepers.

 

[Rolf]

The I don't like about using Duggy is that it can't reliably take out Chansey without a CB and then it turns into massive set up bait for any flying type

Except that it knows stone edge.

Just so you know my reasoning behind "only my battling experience counts"...

One person says "I don't have problems with raikou so stfu" - that's one person. Worth very little in a metagame with many players.

One person says "I have used Raikou and it is exceedingly good insomuch that it is BL" - That means that tons of people have been raped by Raikou.

If lots and lots of people aren't beaten by Raikou, then naturally less people will be able to say they rape with it. Actually playing with it is a more reliable way to check for "BLness"

 

[Synre]

Raikou is one of those Pokemon who has always seemed a lot stronger to me in theory than practice, and I agree with Smurf in that Froslass and Damp Rock are bigger threats (although Moltres is probably bigger than either right now), though I'm curious what a metagame without any of the four suspects. I suspect that it would lead to an awfully stall dominated metagame. It was already by a fairly wide margin (as much as some of you may hate to admit it) the most effective playstyle in the UU tours, and the removal of those Pokemon (even Froslass, since its much easier to replace on stall than more offensively oriented teams) would do a lot to weaken the offensive side of the game, with the defensive side still having never lost anything except Cresselia. And she was just here for a vacation, anyway.

Speaking of playstyles, I think a lot of why Raikou looks so good against super offensive teams is that the characteristics of a Pokemon in that style are low defenses, powerful offense, and high speed. Raikou outruns most of them, and since they're ""supposed" to be defensively inept, of course Raikou wrecks them. I still think Raikou fits in the metagame pretty well (especially since the aforementioned stall already neutered it without having to make any changes), but I don't think it'd be the end of the world if it got removed, either.

I do feel like I should point out that just as the argument "just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean it's broken" is valid, a stance isn't automatically made correct just because the vocal minority is all in agreement, as has been shown before.

 

[Adeku]

I'am just curious. But do we need a 1600 to - rating ? I see on OP, It says 1600/55
is that anything over 1600 rating and at least 55+ volatility?

 

[Rolf]

Over 1600 and under 55 deviation.

 

[Synre]

The rating you need is the mean of the two numbers it shoes you (add them together and divide by two). It needs to be > 1600.

Deviation has to be less than 55. Subtract the small number from the biggerr number and divide by two to get that number.

 

[Adeku]

Alright. Thanks i found out. I got 1644.5 Rating And 45 Dev

 

[Golden Sun]

I find Stone Edge to be useless on Duggy since Flying types can just run away

 

[shrang]

You can make them pay for that by having Stealth Rock up =D

 

[Adeku]

I find Stone Edge to be useless on Duggy since Flying types can just run away

Yeah that is so true, But not much you can run over that. Sometimes comes in handy.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Okay, here are the Raikou checks people can use on Offense: Dugtrio (spikes fuck it against SubCM and it's not like those are common with whorelass running around right...oh), Sceptile (physical or subseed, checks it decently if it doesn't have HP Ice), Swellow (obviously can't switch in, Sub versions lol at it) and...that's it. So yeah, Raikou has three checks on offensive teams, two of which don't really fit into Bulky Offense, (i.e. my preferred style of play), and all of which lose to specific Raikou sets (but not the same one). Offense should not have to run Registeel, Chansey, Steelix, etc. just to not get swept by Raikou, and the three checks that Offense does have access to get screwed over by specific Raikou sets anyway. Of course, stall has few problems with Raikou, but then, Offense had few problems with Gallade...and we still banned it because it broke a certain style of play (instead of the entire metagame).

i use registeel on my offensive team and it beat you 4 out of 4 times yesterday so are you sure you know what you're talking about? you didn't vote for george bush too like heysup did...did you?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Oh, were you the one with the LO Thunder Raikou? Cool.

Anyway, teams with defensive pivots to support their offensive Pokemon are referred to as "Balanced" teams, no matter how many LO sweepers they have. Hyper Offensive teams rely on maintaining constant offensive pressure through sacrifices to win, bulky offense relies on intelligent switching and abusing resistances, Balanced teams rely on bulky pivots to halt opposing momentum and their own sweepers to regain it. And while it's difficult to proper qualify team styles, I would say that your team is more Balanced than Offense, primarily due to the fact that you rely on Registeel to halt opposing sweepers instead of preventing them from setting up like HO would or playing around them through resistances like BO would.

And the fact that you beat me doesn't mean anything one way or another as far as the validity of my statement goes. One would think someone with such an impressive collection of badges would have a better grasp of what constitutes a proper argument.