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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
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Looking at all the Dugtrio nominations, only ONE of them (Rising_Dusk's) even mentions the two words "Shed Shell" and he/she says
Lacking Wish/Recover = Cannot run Shed Shell? Does anyone else agree? Maybe if the nominations were to show examples of Registeel/Chansey constantly getting 2HKOed instead of 3HKOed because of no 6.25% recovery I could be more persuaded. Show why Leftovers is so important to those Pokemon.
Lacking Wish/Recover = Cannot run Shed Shell? Does anyone else agree? Maybe if the nominations were to show examples of Registeel/Chansey constantly getting 2HKOed instead of 3HKOed because of no 6.25% recovery I could be more persuaded. Show why Leftovers is so important to those Pokemon.
Some thoughts of what's happened over the past few pages ...
There're many Pokemon who can put up entry hazards. I could nominate Froslass, except Qwilfish, Cloyster, Omastar, etc can still set up Spikes. There're even more Pokemon who can set up Stealth Rock. So I figured I might as well nominate the entry hazards themselves. Without Spikes, Froslass isn't anywhere near BL ...
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How easy to spin, it seems, is going to be a major factor this round. I think there's a fine line between saying it's easy and saying it's hard. If, as Franky said, spinning is as easy as having Rapid Spin, then Froslass isn't BL because you can just send in the spinner and remove all the Spikes she laboured to put up. Of course, on the other hand saying it is hard to spin also means Moltres is badly hindered.
I think the fairest thing to say is that spinning is possible, but difficult if your opponent is determined to prevent it. Not every team goes to great lengths to stop the other from spinning; against those spinning is relatively straightforward. Against the teams that're intent on keeping entry hazards down then spinning is difficult but still possible, and a successful spin can win the game.
I think anyone who claims spinning is easy and hence nominates Moltres but also claims spinning is difficult and hence nominates Froslass badly needs to re-examine his / her nomination. Actually I further think anyone who nominates Moltres and Froslass should comment on how easy they think spinning is.
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I think if you're going to say "beats common spinners" in your nomination then you should address how:
1. Froslass is weak to Stealth Rock, meaning she can't block spin attempts easily / well if it's on the field;
2. Most spinners have ways to get past Froslass by force. If they can't use Foresight, they can still outright kill Froslass: Donphan can use Assurance, Hitmontop can use Stone Edge, Blastoise hits Froslass for reasonable damage already while resisting its Ice stab, Claydol has Shadow Ball, and so on.
3. Staying in to Taunt Hitmontop is dangerous because it can hit Froslass (Stone Edge, especially) while she's Taunting.
4. Pursuit removes Froslass from the game.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't nominate Froslass (although I personally still don't think she's BL), but if you do, then I think you should address the counterarguments and perhaps emphasize what Froslass really does in superior fashion (high speed comes to mind, as well as the ghost typing).
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Eh ... support Venusaur can Roar and Leech Seed even if it can't use Sleep Powder.
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And finally a few things I see in the nominations themselves (haven't read them all) ...
"Has the metagame shifted? Yes. Venusaur is everywhere. Who abuses the hell out of Venusaur? Froslass. I think you can clearly see that Froslass is still fully capable of doing what it has always been doing." - if Froslass abuses the hell out of Venusaur and if Froslass is so dangerous, why use Venusaur? This looks suspiciously like a "even though people don't want to adapt it's the fault of Froslass" argument.
"Moltres boasts base 125 special attack, which is the highest in the tier. Moltres also boasts a respectable base 90 speed, which means that all of the base 80 pokemon that plague uu are outsped." - Moltres doesn't have the highest base special attack in the tier, that would go to Alakazam. Espeon and Glaceon have 130 base as well, and there are a few other 125 base special attackers too (e.g. Gardevoir).
Heysup said:
There're many Pokemon who can put up entry hazards. I could nominate Froslass, except Qwilfish, Cloyster, Omastar, etc can still set up Spikes. There're even more Pokemon who can set up Stealth Rock. So I figured I might as well nominate the entry hazards themselves. Without Spikes, Froslass isn't anywhere near BL ...
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How easy to spin, it seems, is going to be a major factor this round. I think there's a fine line between saying it's easy and saying it's hard. If, as Franky said, spinning is as easy as having Rapid Spin, then Froslass isn't BL because you can just send in the spinner and remove all the Spikes she laboured to put up. Of course, on the other hand saying it is hard to spin also means Moltres is badly hindered.
I think the fairest thing to say is that spinning is possible, but difficult if your opponent is determined to prevent it. Not every team goes to great lengths to stop the other from spinning; against those spinning is relatively straightforward. Against the teams that're intent on keeping entry hazards down then spinning is difficult but still possible, and a successful spin can win the game.
I think anyone who claims spinning is easy and hence nominates Moltres but also claims spinning is difficult and hence nominates Froslass badly needs to re-examine his / her nomination. Actually I further think anyone who nominates Moltres and Froslass should comment on how easy they think spinning is.
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SJCrew said:
I think if you're going to say "beats common spinners" in your nomination then you should address how:
1. Froslass is weak to Stealth Rock, meaning she can't block spin attempts easily / well if it's on the field;
2. Most spinners have ways to get past Froslass by force. If they can't use Foresight, they can still outright kill Froslass: Donphan can use Assurance, Hitmontop can use Stone Edge, Blastoise hits Froslass for reasonable damage already while resisting its Ice stab, Claydol has Shadow Ball, and so on.
3. Staying in to Taunt Hitmontop is dangerous because it can hit Froslass (Stone Edge, especially) while she's Taunting.
4. Pursuit removes Froslass from the game.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't nominate Froslass (although I personally still don't think she's BL), but if you do, then I think you should address the counterarguments and perhaps emphasize what Froslass really does in superior fashion (high speed comes to mind, as well as the ghost typing).
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PK Gaming said:
Eh ... support Venusaur can Roar and Leech Seed even if it can't use Sleep Powder.
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And finally a few things I see in the nominations themselves (haven't read them all) ...
"Has the metagame shifted? Yes. Venusaur is everywhere. Who abuses the hell out of Venusaur? Froslass. I think you can clearly see that Froslass is still fully capable of doing what it has always been doing." - if Froslass abuses the hell out of Venusaur and if Froslass is so dangerous, why use Venusaur? This looks suspiciously like a "even though people don't want to adapt it's the fault of Froslass" argument.
"Moltres boasts base 125 special attack, which is the highest in the tier. Moltres also boasts a respectable base 90 speed, which means that all of the base 80 pokemon that plague uu are outsped." - Moltres doesn't have the highest base special attack in the tier, that would go to Alakazam. Espeon and Glaceon have 130 base as well, and there are a few other 125 base special attackers too (e.g. Gardevoir).
Bane brings up some very good points and addresses them nicely;
Also, YaM brings up a relevant point;
I accept the Raikou nominations as well as the Spike/Stealth Rock nominations. However, I feel that a lot of nominations are made because 'people are tired of that Pokemon' rather than 'this Pokemon is broken in some aspect'.
Also, YaM brings up a relevant point;
I accept the Raikou nominations as well as the Spike/Stealth Rock nominations. However, I feel that a lot of nominations are made because 'people are tired of that Pokemon' rather than 'this Pokemon is broken in some aspect'.
I don't know if this has already been answered, but how hmm... detailed... should the explanation for the upper reqs be? I mean, is it just saying: Froslass is a whore, it really realy is. Under hail she's even more whore-ish; or is there some kind of model to be followed? (can't wait it's gone, and definitely don't want to miss the chance of sending it to hell)
But Froslass is by far, and nearly undeniably the best and most effective Pokemon at getting Spikes set up. Again, if you wanted to just vent or something else that isn't productive, then disregard my post. If you actually want to get something done, I would have to say that nominating Froslass would be the only thing that would make any sense based on your viewpoint.
Banedon said:
Because it's hard to give Froslass Leftovers and some Defense EVs.
Banedon said:
1. Except she can, as has been proven by actual facts not generalizations such as "Froslass is weak to Stealth Rock so it sucks at everything". This is the route you're taking.
2. Where have you been for the past, um, well year and a bit? Actually you should know better than anyone else because I'm almost 100% sure it was you who it was explained to in the Froslass thread that Donphan cannot beat Froslass EVEN when it switches into Stealth Rock because of Pain Split + Ice Beam. Again, this has been proven by actual facts (i.e. calculations) not generalizations such as "DONPHAN AND HITMONTOP CAN USE SUPER EFFECTIVE MOVES ON FROSLASS SO FROSLASS CAN'T BEAT THEM" which is literally what you just said. You just listed all of the Pokemon's super effective moves and assumed that they beat Froslass with them (hint: they don't or they do with roughly 30-40% left).
3. Read the second half of number two. Here is a reminder: Stone Edge fails to OHKO (57.1% - 67.6%). There is nothing better than setting up Spikes followed by essentially removing the foes Rapid Spinner because they are naive enough to leave them in on a Pain Split spamming Froslass.
4. Pursuit from? What Pursuit 2HKOes Froslass? Froslass beats LO Ambipom with Pursuit. Scyther doesn't OHKO and is weak to Ice Beam. Houndoom's Pursuit is actually something that Froslass can switch out of and survive. Drapion? I guess that could hurt. Absol? I guess. Neither can really afford the moveslot unless you're running Choice Band, which is not the best set for either of them.
Banedon said:
Roar - Yes. Leech Seed - No. You do know that Leech Seed doesn't do anything if you get OHKOed right?
Banedon said:
Lol. You took this out of context and tried to address it as an argument. Deja Vu. That was very clearly not my argument. At all.
So answer me this: if my Froslass argument applied before (which it did), and the metagame shifted towards Venusaur, a Pokemon that Froslass sets up on, being everywhere, then do my arguments still apply?
If you're going to say "that's not what I was addressing" then don't take my argument out of context next time and actually pay attention to what you're saying.
This is like me going like this:
Banedon said:
So you're saying Alakazam, and Espeon, and Glaceon are better than Moltres? Alakazam and Espeon do not have the precious Earthquake immunity that grants Moltres so many free switch-ins, and faint at the drop of a pin with their paper defenses (Espeon has OK SpD I guess). Alakazam and Espeon also have a very shitty offensive typing, STAB Psychic-type moves are very very bad in comparison to STAB Special Fire-type attacks which is among the best in the game.
And yes, I know this is not what you're saying (well I certainly hope not), you're just correcting him unless I'm mistaken. See how I can just take it out of context and address it as a non-existent argument?
I don't have an opinion on Froslass, but I found a few mistakes in Heysup's argument.
Spamming Pain Split is an easy way to get killed while doing pitiful damage to everything not named Chansey, Hariyama, etc. Trust me, I've tried and failed. While I know Pain Split heals you, it doesn't heal you enough to make over 50% "tickle."
I've played someone who used Technitop with Pursuit and Rapid Spin. This isn't a good argument, in fact I'm not trying to argue with this, I'm just saying.
Spamming Pain Split is an easy way to get killed while doing pitiful damage to everything not named Chansey, Hariyama, etc. Trust me, I've tried and failed. While I know Pain Split heals you, it doesn't heal you enough to make over 50% "tickle."
I've played someone who used Technitop with Pursuit and Rapid Spin. This isn't a good argument, in fact I'm not trying to argue with this, I'm just saying.
I thought this was obvious but you don't need to outheal 50% attacks you just need to spam Pain Split until the opponent is sitting at a very worthless 30-40%. I actually said this in the very same post you quoted. What is it with people and missing the entire post but a few sentences lately?
Lonewolf said:
Read above. Pursuit does like 52% with Life Orb.
And then you don't set up Spikes. Doesn't seem like Froslass did very much did it?
You get 1-2 layers from just switching in and setting up in addition to the 1-2 layers I already have set up? Otherwise, why am I switching Froslass in if I don't have any Spikes set up in the first place?
You come in, set up as they attack, and possibly again if it doesn't 2HKO (only Donphan and Stone Edge Hitmontop can really do this).
Anyway, you answer me, does Froslass seem like it did very much? 2-3 Layers and a 30-40% (based on the Spinner) Spinner.
Are you honestly going to proceed to tell me that this isn't "very much"? If the Rapid Spinner wants to come back in after I send Moltres or something out, it will be at, you know, 9%. Yea it's not going to pull a Rapid Spin off sorry.
Spikes are the problem, in the similar fashion of Rain Dance. They both make Pokemon 'broken' and can be setup in a variety of ways. Lets be perfectly honest, Rapid Spin is a worthless move and requires you to waste a turn of momentum (assuming you had some). Spikes forces a player to make rash decisions otherwise there will be no late game.
People seem o be under the assumption that Spikes can be removed after the Ghost is gone... Well that being a task in itself you also have to take into consideration the offensive presence. How many times have you seen Donphan in against Moltres, 'thinking-hoping-assuming' that it will be able to get off a Rapid Spin?
Spikes are unhealthy for the meta
People seem o be under the assumption that Spikes can be removed after the Ghost is gone... Well that being a task in itself you also have to take into consideration the offensive presence. How many times have you seen Donphan in against Moltres, 'thinking-hoping-assuming' that it will be able to get off a Rapid Spin?
Spikes are unhealthy for the meta
The difference between Spikes being broken and Froslass being broken is very clearly outlined in my paragraphs so I'll just quote them:
(Note this is after my explanation of Moltres + Swellow with Spikes)
Heysup said:
Simply, without a Pokemon such as Froslass setting up Spikes easily and helping them stay on the field, they are not broken. When they become, quite literally, "common battle conditions", is when they become broken.
Yeah, I missed the thing about the 30-40%. But you don't need to be rude about it.
So you come in, Spike as they switch, and then set up as they Stone Edge. Did you mean they switch in their spinner who knows Stone Edge? Or did you mean they switch in another Pokemon that knows Stone Edge that can competently handle Froslass. In the latter case, Froslass loses. But it seems like the former shouldn't even happen. Why would one switch their spinner into a Ghost-type with the intent of spinning?
52% is still quite a bit.
On Pain Split, Froslass is running close to max HP. If the spinner has low base HP or doesn't run many HP EVs, Pain Split isn't as effective.
So you come in, Spike as they switch, and then set up as they Stone Edge. Did you mean they switch in their spinner who knows Stone Edge? Or did you mean they switch in another Pokemon that knows Stone Edge that can competently handle Froslass. In the latter case, Froslass loses. But it seems like the former shouldn't even happen. Why would one switch their spinner into a Ghost-type with the intent of spinning?
52% is still quite a bit.
On Pain Split, Froslass is running close to max HP. If the spinner has low base HP or doesn't run many HP EVs, Pain Split isn't as effective.
Sorry for being defensive, just that exact thing happened on this same page with Banedon.
Anyway, I worded it very very backwards so I changed it in the original post.
What I meant to say, was that you switch into Rapid Spin and set up a layer or two as they attack.
Now think about it for a second: you will already have at least a layer of Spikes set up when this happens, otherwise why would you need to switch to Froslass if you don't have any Spikes set up??
You make it seem so easy. Apparently Froslass has an immunity to SR. It's able to come in on Donphan, Hitmontop, and Blastoise in tip-top shape. If you apparently have a layer of Spikes up before I bring my spinner in, who's to say I can't have SR up already? So you got that 1 layer down as I switched, and I brought in my counter. Now the next time you switch into my spinner you're going to be OHKO'd by Stone Edge/Assurance/Head Smash whatever. In Blastoises case it can just Yawn and force Froslass to switch out and into SR another time, or Surf it to death then Spin after it dies. So you may be able to "safely" switch into players who don't know what they're doing and continuously spam Rapid Spin, but any competent player is going to sense that easily. But my outlook may just be biased because the Prolass set always failed against me. My Ninetails/Mismagius/whatever would always OHKO it and my spinners would knock it out as it switched into SR or if I used Blastoise it would continually force it out with Yawn.
The assumption people are making is that spikes is easy to set up. As of right now that is true, because of Froslass. Froslass makes it so easy to set up spikes that people have started coming straight to the conclusion that spikes are ruining the metagame. The real thing that is ruining the metagame is the pokemon that makes it a simple task to get these spikes up and that is Froslass. To be short without Froslass i think we wont be seeing any arguments for spikes to be banned.
Actually, Froslass beats all spinner's save Blastoise. She can heal off any damage with pain split and damage with ice beam. Headsmash? Aggron can't spin :P.
I switch into my Leafeon/Venusaur/Torterra (with Yache or whatever) and setup as you switch out.
(there are more than one ways to using Froslass)
Not Hitmontop, who can also use Bullet Punch.
Not every Hitmontop runs it... but you need to be prepared for one.
Bullet Punch is a 3HKO on Prolass. (A close one though) and that's only with technitop which doesn't even spin. I don't know what BP deals on Prolass WITHOUT technician but I'd imagine it would be far weaker.
Technitop spins if it wants to.
I know Aggron can't spin. Donphan can learn Head Smash, I've seen it be used to OHKO Froslass and it works, hence I included it.
And I meant Froslass coming in the first time, then being forced to switch. Its around 81% now. Next time it switches in it's going to be at 56% which means it's going to be KO'd by Stone Edge/Assurance. How is it going to Pain Split when it's dead?
Dude, that is so dastardly and sneaky. It can screw you over in a few ways, but it still sounds nasty.
Froslass isn't forced to switch at all against Donphan as it soundly beats it one on one. And you can't assume Froslass is switching into entry hazards ALL of the time.
And what if a ghost (Rotom/Mismagius/Froslass) switches in? Hell are you going to run foresight too!
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