lol. Who gave this thread two stars? Also, I'm pretty sure at this point that we're going to have the same banlist this month.
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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Running Air Slash on Toxistall Moltres just to beat Heracross is utterly retarded, you lose to Registeel and Steelix and AGGRON for god's sake. No moltres should ever lose to an aggron >_> This is one of the examples of ridiculous overcentralization that I was referring to earlier.
Whats wrong with losing to an Aggron? At least Aggron isn't weak to fire (unlike Steelix...) so it's not AS embarassing.
Aggron: Am I not good enough for you?!
It probably never will come down.
Anyway, that Exeggutor set looks neat. Too bad it doesn't have Roserade's speed to abuse it. :(
On another note, anyone try out bulky NP Slowking (NP set but with wall's EV spread). It worked like a charm for me. Setting up on Moltres was the best. :) Haze Milo is really annoying, though.
Anyway, that Exeggutor set looks neat. Too bad it doesn't have Roserade's speed to abuse it. :(
On another note, anyone try out bulky NP Slowking (NP set but with wall's EV spread). It worked like a charm for me. Setting up on Moltres was the best. :) Haze Milo is really annoying, though.
True, but NP set up is way faster (3 turns as opposed to 6), and it hits way harder. What physical attacker is going to switch in on Slowking not named Absol or Drapion, though? The rest are walled pretty effectively or threatened.
yea about the speed it pretty much beats what it needs to (WALLS and DEFENSIVE PIVOT WHATEVERS), comes in and just nails shit hard. you aren't running a team without something to take a hit from raikou / moltres / venusaur these days and exeggutor does a great job on capitalizing on that by...beating the shit out of everything. sure, it misses 90 base speed, but does it make exeggutor bad? nope
im sorry i cant use periods commas etc now since my keyboard just fucked up on me but really dont let eggys speed hold you back from abusing its fun niche! i suggest you at least try it out
edit: rofl did you really mention curse slowking as a viable option? could you do us all a favor and think before you post? could you please contribute something useful instead of crap like curse slowking pelliper and whatever else your gimmick of the day is? and trick room doesnt really work since a) its switching out after leaf storm and b) it needs healing because of life orb + sr
im sorry i cant use periods commas etc now since my keyboard just fucked up on me but really dont let eggys speed hold you back from abusing its fun niche! i suggest you at least try it out
edit: rofl did you really mention curse slowking as a viable option? could you do us all a favor and think before you post? could you please contribute something useful instead of crap like curse slowking pelliper and whatever else your gimmick of the day is? and trick room doesnt really work since a) its switching out after leaf storm and b) it needs healing because of life orb + sr
I guess the cats out of the bag!
The Eggman is a powerful threat, sporting UU's strongest leafstorm. It has S-powder too which invaluable. I just used a sub set yesterday (doing some testings) and it was lethal. It's a shame Shoddy's ladder is down.
Exeggutor @ Leftovers
Nature:Modest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD-substitute
-Sleep powder
-Leafstorm
-Psychic
The Eggman is a powerful threat, sporting UU's strongest leafstorm. It has S-powder too which invaluable. I just used a sub set yesterday (doing some testings) and it was lethal. It's a shame Shoddy's ladder is down.
Exeggutor @ Leftovers
Nature:Modest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD-substitute
-Sleep powder
-Leafstorm
-Psychic
Again: use Trick Room to fix the speed (if you need it) over Synthesis.
But yeah: once i fought Weezing + Milotic and both were Haze users. It gave me hell, i couldn't boost with anything.
I thought: Is there a poke that can take down both without boost?
The answer: Exeggutor.
PS: Explosion is also a good option over Synthesis. So you take a poke together with you (Chansey anyone?).
But yeah: once i fought Weezing + Milotic and both were Haze users. It gave me hell, i couldn't boost with anything.
I thought: Is there a poke that can take down both without boost?
The answer: Exeggutor.
PS: Explosion is also a good option over Synthesis. So you take a poke together with you (Chansey anyone?).
If you want to kill Milotic and Weezing with one pokemon just use Mismagius or Mespirit with Thunderbolt/STAB. Milotic can try to haze you but it gets 2hko'd by unboosted thunderbolt and weezing can't do anything to either poke. And as an added bonus they don't completely suck.
Meh, I like Special LO Venusaur better than Eggy. The speed and increased special bulk makes a big difference imo (Milotic 2KOs with Ice Beam, not a good thing). The power is a pro for Eggy, but doesnt make a huge difference since both their Leaf Storms will KO their targets anyway. And lastly, Venusaurs typing is superior. Poison has better resistances and more importantly isnt Pursuit bait at -2.
I don't mean to chime in the conversation about potential sets, but in regards to the Heracross talk, I believe it could be broken but we should at least give it a chance to see how the metagame adapts. If we get the unwavering vibe about Heracross shifting the metagame in an unhealthy manner, rather than a positive one, then the consensus of the players would obviously vote it BL. There's obviously going to be a major centralization with Heracross dropping but I think FlareBlitz raises a good point about "unhealthy" centralization. This is when people resort to running Hidden Power Flying on their Mismagius, Rotoms, and Luxrays, ultimately making the metagame not balanced.
When Porygon-Z was first introduced, we were already theorizing how it can break stall easily and how t it should receive the quick boot. However, in practice, it was indeed broken, albeit not that broken that it deserved the quick boot discussion. I predict the same thing would happen with Heracross - its going to be a powerful threat, but it deserves one full test rather than a quick ban. Afterall, Heracross does have some viable checks, which I can name a few, though it depends entirely on the set ran. In short, Heracross deserves one full test like the other guys.
edit: bad ass, my eggy set aka roserade 2.0 was supposed to be a secret!
When Porygon-Z was first introduced, we were already theorizing how it can break stall easily and how t it should receive the quick boot. However, in practice, it was indeed broken, albeit not that broken that it deserved the quick boot discussion. I predict the same thing would happen with Heracross - its going to be a powerful threat, but it deserves one full test rather than a quick ban. Afterall, Heracross does have some viable checks, which I can name a few, though it depends entirely on the set ran. In short, Heracross deserves one full test like the other guys.
edit: bad ass, my eggy set aka roserade 2.0 was supposed to be a secret!
:(
Gimmick of the day from Thund: Mixed offensive Weezing. Sludge Bomb that Houndoom! Thunderbolt that Milotic! Fire Blast that Venusaur! And when it's weak.....Explosion that Chansey! Rawr.
It has fun against stall with a bit of entry hazards.
^You actually succeed on the leaderboard with your stuff. Maybe if I could make a consistently good team more than once a test I could do that too... Sadly that's been a failed dream so far. Maybe I should break my alt boycott...
QFT. While I might be over-emphasising that Heracross in not THAT broken (He most likely is, but not to the extent that people make him out to be), he should deserve a test just like every other Suspect. Remember Alakazam?? Remember Rhyperior?? Remember how they were overhyped by theorymon to break UU when they just fitted in nicely??
Also, just to add to the Gallade and Heracross comparison, I believe the argument made about Gallade to get him banned is flawed (This doesn't mean I think Gallade isn't BL, however). Again, I will say that stallbreaking is an effect of the brokenness of the Pokemon, and therefore cannot be used conclusively to say that a Pokemon is broken (This applies the other way around, as well, like the "Raikou rapes Offense" arguments). This is why we cannot just go "Oh, Heracross is like Gallade, who will force Stall to run ridiculous counters to stop it, therefore it is BL", because we would be banning a Pokemon as a result of a flawed argument. It's like saying 2+2=5, so therefore 2 x (2+2) = 10. That's just bad logic.
No one with any knowledge of the tier theorymon'd Kazam or Rhyperior to be broken, just very effective (which they are). Additionally, no one here is saying "let's autoban Heracross"; if you look at my first post, I mention the quick boot, and I've mentioned it in pretty much every other post I've made. The idea is that we would not want a metagame where stall just doesn't exist for 2 months (well, I would, but you know what I mean) and that there needs to be a clearly defined process for quickly voting on suspects which are perceived to be blatantly overpowered. I will say that one part of your post made no sense; if stallbreaking is an effect of a broken Pokemon, why can that not be used as evidence that a Pokemon is broken? That's like saying "sweeping is an effect of a broken pokemon there it can't be used as evidence that a pokemon is broken". It makes no sense. If defensive teams constitute "a significant portion of the metagame" and if Heracross obliterates defensive teams with little support then it is BL. That's it. Don't try to complicate the discussion, particularly not with incorrect arguments.
I'm saying it cannot be used conclusively as a reaon for banning a Pokemon. Every Pokemon does differently against different teams. If a playstyle suffers because of a Pokemon, it does not mean it is automatically broken, this is what I'm saying. It's like saying a tumour is a malignant cancer when it might not be. Yes, Pokemon X makes playstyle Y difficult is an effect, what you could say a symptom, but not a cause. It's like saying "Oh I got chest pains, that means I have a heart attack" when a whole lot other things can be going on (Asthma, pneumonia, etc). So, basically, Heracross makes Stall difficult, but that does automatically mean it is broken.
You need to think about a Pokemon's tiering status from both sides. For example, lets compare polar opposites: Chansey and Gallade. Chansey walls a very significant portion of the metagame. Gallade sweeps through a significant portion of the metagame. Are both broken? No. Chansey is essentially a liability against any physical attacker and is easily removed via Pursuit, Dugtrio, or even just lolspikes. Gallade is never a liability because it has decent special bulk and it beats Ghosts, Dugtrio, and Psychic-types before they can even think about revenge killing.
tl;dr Shadow Sneak allows SD Gallade to be completely viable against offense.
This is why you can't simply say "it rapes stall banbanban" because that isn't how we (should) ban something. If it is a liability, it simply isn't broken. There is no way to prove or disprove this with Heracross without testing it.
So why would Moltres do this? To beat Heracross? The same Heracross that is outsped and OHKOed by 44 SpA Flamethrower (89.7% - 105.6%)?????????????????????????????
It can be used as evidence, but again, you need to consider both sides. Yanmega and Gallade both destroyed offense and stall respectively. However, Yanmega was also exceptionally effective against stall, while Gallade functioned decently against offense. If Heracross is not any better than, for example, SD Blaziken against stall, then sorry it should not be banned. I have a hunch that it won't be the case, but you can't being to think that it's justified to ban it while its being a liability versus offense. If we set the bar that low, goodbye Chansey, goodbye Blaziken, etc.
And to the "lol heracross won't even drop" crowd: This isn't solely about Heracross. This is about what we do for Pokemon in these situations. Heracross is just the most relevant example.
I did some calcs and CB Hera's damage output is pretty scary. I think what really sealed my opinion on the matter is seeing that Moltres dies without a fight if it switches in on any move besides Megahorn. I'm going to hold my tongue on the "no counters" bit, but Heracross can safely OHKO or 2HKO almost the entire tier just spamming Megahorn/CC. It does help that he has a respectable enough base speed to strike again a most of the time and status doesn't do anything but piss him off and make him stronger. If you flip a coin and guess wrong, something dies. And he gets to do this as many times as he wants before you ragequit and start sending death threats to Jabba and Reach.
I understand Shrang's proactive anti-ban stance, but...we're working with another class of Pokemon here. We're talking Honchkrow-level broken. I can very much see Hera getting the quick boot once its run in OU is up. I hope everyone is prepared to reserve a mandatory team slot for Weezing.
I understand Shrang's proactive anti-ban stance, but...we're working with another class of Pokemon here. We're talking Honchkrow-level broken. I can very much see Hera getting the quick boot once its run in OU is up. I hope everyone is prepared to reserve a mandatory team slot for Weezing.
You probably don't know exactly how broken Heracross would be without testing it. I mean, we could easily have a middle ground where if he's found to be unhandlable (Which is likely, but definitely not certain), and everyone is crying for him to go and begging Reach and Jabba via PM, we could possibly have an earlier vote. This is up to Jabba and Reach, of course. However, I do think he should at least be tested since it isn't certain or at least something like 95% certain that he is overly-broken, all we have are some theorymon and some damage calcs.
Anyway, on another topic, I'm currently updating my Offensive SubRoost Moltres set to go with the new format, and have come to the bit to discuss Modest vs Timid Moltres. I do think Timid is the way to go, otherwise stuff like Venusaur would just Sleep Powder you, Hitmonlee and stuff would just revenge you as well. Are there any merits to running Modest?? Don't tell me the obvious that Modest brings more power, what might you 2HKO or OHKO with Modest that you can't with Timid (Include entry hazards in as well, up to something like 2 layers of Spikes or one layer of SR and one layer of Spikes, I don't want anything that takes way too long to set up).
Anyway, on another topic, I'm currently updating my Offensive SubRoost Moltres set to go with the new format, and have come to the bit to discuss Modest vs Timid Moltres. I do think Timid is the way to go, otherwise stuff like Venusaur would just Sleep Powder you, Hitmonlee and stuff would just revenge you as well. Are there any merits to running Modest?? Don't tell me the obvious that Modest brings more power, what might you 2HKO or OHKO with Modest that you can't with Timid (Include entry hazards in as well, up to something like 2 layers of Spikes or one layer of SR and one layer of Spikes, I don't want anything that takes way too long to set up).
Chansey is only 2HKOed with full Spikes + Stealth Rock using Modest Fire Blast, not Timid. That's the main difference.
I have to agree with FlareBlitz here, we should stick to what our characteristics say at our moment - our current guideline to how we should view our potential suspects. If the said Pokemon embodies the certain characteristic, then it should be up BL. Plain and simple. We shouldn't even try to overcomplicated things with fallacious assumptions - Pokemon who fare well with both styles of play is a completely wrong way to look at a broken Pokemon. Mismagius is capable of dealing with both play-styles, yet it was never brought up for suspect discussion. Ultimately, we should be looking for the amount of Pokemon the suspect can break, not the ability to limit a play-style. The key word here is sufficient portion of the metagame.
But that's the thing. Taking the characteristics as a literal, stand-alone argument is just flawed. Heysup already mentioned SD Blaziken pwning stall and Chansey walling a significant portion of the offensive metagame. I outright deleted teams that had ~50% success rate. A Pokémon that excels only against certain team types simply shouldn't be expected to let someone breeze to the top of the ladder.
The Mismagius example is flawed because it simply doesn't sweep teams with little effort.
The Mismagius example is flawed because it simply doesn't sweep teams with little effort.
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