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NP: UU - Silent Night

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Smurf. said:
And I'm retarded enough to keep my Alakazam in...
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MetaGross66 said what I wanted to say - if you switch Alakazam out, then Mesprit's U-turn would buy his team momentum and therefore the advantage. If you keep Alakazam in, Mesprit KO'es. In either case Mesprit would then have turned a potentially deadly situation (Alakazam already in an threatening to attack) to an advantageous situation.

Furthermore, Modest LO Alakazam's Psychic does 34.2% - 40.5% to min/min Mesprit, so with some HP / SpD investment Mesprit can actually switch into Psychic + SR twice and threaten Alakazam out both times, assuming of course Alakazam doesn't predict Mesprit coming in and using Signal Beam / Shadow Ball. Scarf Mesprit looks very much like a counter to me.

@above - if Alakazam is scarfed it would also have to switch out, since it'd be stuck using Psychic on Mesprit ...
 
Just the fact that we have to debate whether or not Alakazam is even GOOD proves that he's not bannable material.
 
@super effective: Good thing we're not talking about Salamence then.
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Salamence is an arbitrary example. Alakazam has Recover, and there's also Wish passing.

The statement doesn't carry so much weight if it doesn't account for things such as recovery (even Leftovers). This is my point.
 
Super Effective said:
Salamence is an arbitrary example. Alakazam has Recover, and there's also Wish passing.

The statement doesn't carry so much weight if it doesn't account for things such as recovery (even Leftovers). This is my point.
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It doesn't matter if you're recovering... that just means you're taking more damage so you'd be able to deal more, so the relationship would theoretically be constant. The ratio would just be, for example, 300%:150% rather than 200%:100% if you passed it a wish or by some means got a recover in. Because of the extra damage that's pssible to be dealt to you, you are able to dish out more. Hope that made sense...
 
SJCrew said:
Just the fact that we have to debate whether or not Alakazam is even GOOD proves that he's not bannable material.
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All that proves is that we have no idea what we are talking about.

Alakazam, though I never thought it to be broken, always seemed to give me loads of trouble. I could not make an effective team that wasn't Alakazam weak for some reason, and I'd have to resort to using stupid shit like Pursuit Swellow to take it out early. It's undeniably a good Pokemon, but the real debate about it being "that good".

I personally don't think it is "that good", but I just think that using a silly argument about whether a good Pokemon is good or not as proof of it being not broken is illogical and invalid.
 
The primary problem I think with our current way of debating suspects is it depends a lot on the teams you primarily use. For instance, there's no way in hell that I would vote Alakazam BL, but if someone said "yeah I think DD Feraligatr is BL" I would seriously consider supporting them just because my teams usually have an assload of trouble with it. But then DD Feraligatr is walled by leafeon, tangrowth, milotic, etc etc etc. I don't run any of those on my teams, so it's natural that I have some trouble with it. Similarly, if you don't run spiritomb or copious priority or bulky pursuiters or swellow/scarfers etc etc etc then you're going to be 'zam weak. That's not to invalidate anyone's argument, but when saying things like "x gives me trouble" we should always consider if x gives us trouble because it has few/no viable checks across all team styles or if x gives us trouble because we normally don't use Pokemon that can effectively deal with it...
 
The thing is, there are a number of unexplored methods for beating Alakazam that haven't been employed because he's just not that huge of a threat. If he gets in on something he can threaten, then fine, I can understand him getting a sub off (even though I never seem to run anything he can kill right away), but Pursuit trapping is so incredibly easy with him because he has the defenses to be OHKOed even if he stays in. Scarf Absol, Drapion, Skuntank, or anything really will shut him down good every time. Also, he's powerful, but he's still not getting past UU's special tanks under normal circumstances...
 
All the scarf-mesprit that I've seen are leads that play indentically to any trick-scarf lead I've used in the past. That is, they offload it at the first convenient moment. Odds are, given that Alakazam is a phenomenal late game sweeper, Mesprit will have offloaded its scarf by then (if it hasnt been been killed off). It is an extremely unreliable method of dealing with Zam.
 
Rolf said:
It doesn't matter if you're recovering... that just means you're taking more damage so you'd be able to deal more, so the relationship would theoretically be constant. The ratio would just be, for example, 300%:150% rather than 200%:100% if you passed it a wish or by some means got a recover in. Because of the extra damage that's pssible to be dealt to you, you are able to dish out more. Hope that made sense...
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No.

If Salamence takes 600% damage but deals 600% damage (across 6 Pokemon, not to the same one), I would say that it's much better than Alakazam dealing 150% damage but taking 100%--Salamence swept an entire team. The ratio of damage done:damage taken doesn't matter.
 
Smurf. said:
All the scarf-mesprit that I've seen are leads that play indentically to any trick-scarf lead I've used in the past. That is, they offload it at the first convenient moment. Odds are, given that Alakazam is a phenomenal late game sweeper, Mesprit will have offloaded its scarf by then (if it hasnt been been killed off). It is an extremely unreliable method of dealing with Zam.
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If someone is using Scarf Mesprit to counter Alakazam, they won't trick it onto some other Pokemon, because that means losing a Zam check, and unless they run Spiritomb or some NU that can beat Zam, their team becomes vulnerable.

And speaking of NUs that can beat Zam, I find that Mantine does rather well, even as a generic special wall.
 
Smurf. said:
Odds are, given that Alakazam is a phenomenal late game sweeper
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This is all Zam is good at IME.

I've tried the ol' switch in after something dies/uturn and kill something, switch out, ect and although it sounds epic in theory it just doesn't work as well in practice IME.

Late game it can be epic. If things are weakened enough it can ohko them (bc if it doesn't, it is dead). If stomb is gone. If scarf absol is dead. If focus blast hits 2x in a row to kill certain checks. If it predicts right on the pursuit/sucker punch mind game. If priority users are dead. If it wins the speed tie with certain pokes. If the scarf pokes faster than it are dead. if if if if if.
 
FlareBlitz said:
The primary problem I think with our current way of debating suspects is it depends a lot on the teams you primarily use. For instance, there's no way in hell that I would vote Alakazam BL, but if someone said "yeah I think DD Feraligatr is BL" I would seriously consider supporting them just because my teams usually have an assload of trouble with it. But then DD Feraligatr is walled by leafeon, tangrowth, milotic, etc etc etc. I don't run any of those on my teams, so it's natural that I have some trouble with it. Similarly, if you don't run spiritomb or copious priority or bulky pursuiters or swellow/scarfers etc etc etc then you're going to be 'zam weak. That's not to invalidate anyone's argument, but when saying things like "x gives me trouble" we should always consider if x gives us trouble because it has few/no viable checks across all team styles or if x gives us trouble because we normally don't use Pokemon that can effectively deal with it...
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I only have very few teams weak to Alakazam, but I use him on a lot of my teams so I nominated him because of that. Not because I had trouble with him but because I found it way too easy to win because of him. Even teams with Spiritomb + Chansey would succumb to him.

But I agree some people might just become fed up with a certain Pokemon their team is weak against and assume it's a suspect because they don't make the necessary changes.
 
That's why I'm a firm advocate that experience battling with the suspects is what truly matters, not battling against potential suspects. Some people's play styles in general leave them weak defensively to suspects on pretty much every team they make. I know almost every single one of my teams has a problem with Torterra/Rhyperior if they get a Rock Polish up. I just don't play well with their counters. But inversely by playing with both of those I know that they (well at least Torterra, I'm on the fence about Rhyperior) do not deserve suspect status.
 
Wow, a Stealth Rock nom, it seems to be a trend lately after Brandon nominated both spikes and SR. It would be odd though, with SR in OU but not UU. Of course, that opens things up like Moltres and Scyther to become even more dangerous. It would definitely be different.
 
It's not going to be a Suspect unless more people come to its aid. To be honest, IF SR was to be called into question, it should be a PR thing for the whole site instead of just UU, like Evasion Clause and all that crap.

EDIT: 1111!!!
 
Stealth Rock is inexorably a part of competitive DPP play, I can guarantee that it'll never be banned in any DPP Smogon metagame, including UU. If forty people had nominated Stealth Rock (which would probably never happen), I still doubt anyone--myself included--would take Stealth Rock into consideration as a serious Suspect.
 
So pretty much it will never get banned because it has been here too long? I understand that the huge metagame shifts so late in the game might be unappealing to some users, but shouldn't everything get a fair chance? Or are we just "winding down" until Gen 5, which is understandable.
 
"Winding down" sounds reasonable. I'd like to think that Salamence's ban is the last true controversy that'll occur during Gen 4. Now we can just focus on competing, finding new strategies, and enjoying the game.

Anyway, my Aggron just survived a fucking EQ from Steelix today. Just a little note out there to everyone who likes to forget that Aggron has 180 base defense.
 
SJCrew said:
"Winding down" sounds reasonable. I'd like to think that Salamence's ban is the last true controversy that'll occur during Gen 4. Now we can just focus on competing, finding new strategies, and enjoying the game.

Anyway, my Aggron just survived a fucking EQ from Steelix today. Just a little note out there to everyone who likes to forget that Aggron has 180 base defense.
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I have had LOTS of success with aggron lately. The sub/mr/fp/hs version of course...
 
CB Aggron is making for a pretty great lead actually, getting immediate damage on the opposing team from the get go, even 2HKOing the defensive behemoth that is Uxie (an amazing feat for a physical attacker considering it's not hitting super effectively). 252/0 Spiritomb is guaranteed to be OHKOed as well, as is 168 HP Mesprit about 50% of the time. I'm using Aggron with a Heal Bell Uxie with SR to get rid of any annoying Thunder Waves thrown at it, and with Toxicroak to absorb Water attacks as well as to make the most of weakened Uxie.
 
People always seem to assume that 4X weakness = automatic OHKO. Aggron is strong enough to survive all unstabbed ground fighting moves. (Drapion's EQ, Scyther's Brick Break etc)

Sometimes I opt for a resist berry (usually Shuca or Passho, Aggron isn't taking on most fighting types even with that berry) but the power loss just sucks. Besides, Dugtrio isn't common and CB Aggron takes out most bulky waters making Passho kinda redundant. (Useful for the RP set I guess)

Edit: Objection! I realize now that i had Chople berry... (how silly of me) and RPRise Aggron still is a pretty powerful threat if your only check to Aggron is Donphan.
 
Haha, PK edited when he found out that Absol Superpower does KO Aggron with ease.

Aggron is a very good poke to punch holes on the opposition. Aggron comes in= something is getting hurt. Badly.

Also: what, no love for RP Aggron? My good old RP Magnet Rise Aggron can still sweep/cripple the opposition enough with some ease mid game (late game it's ok, but it's mid game that i think RP Aggron shines the most).
 
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