NP: UU - Silent Night

[PK Gaming]

No more "CCAT" talk in this topic.

The best discussion right now is clearly the Venusaur, Milotic issue.

Closer attention should be paid to those Pokemon and whether or not they do indeed cross the line over to suspect. Try them out yourselves, try different sets both offensive and defensive, make note of how you deal with them in teambuilding. Also keep an eye out for something becoming popular that may come close to stepping on the bl/uu line as people become more adept at using it. (scyther anyone?)

Really? I think we've already talked about Milotic and Venusaur to hell and back. What else is there to talk about? I mean come on now, we've also talked about the various different sets each pokemon can run too.
I honestly saw no reason to close that CCAT other than "you didn't like it.

And you honestly think Scyther is BL Material? Not with the SR it's not.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Really? I think we've already talked about Milotic and Venusaur to hell and back. What else is there to talk about? I mean come on now, we've also talked about the various different sets each pokemon can run too.
I honestly saw no reason to close that CCAT other than "you didn't like it.

And you honestly think Scyther is BL Material? Not with the SR it's not.

Yeah well when Pokemon supposedly skirt the line so much it's worth keeping an eye on them and discuss every single facet of them.

And um....Yanmega? Moltres was nominated as a suspect? Just because a Pokemon requires a little bit of support by no means implies that it is not suspect.

And it's not that I don't "like" CCAT. I think it's a complete waste of space that accomplishes nothing besides producing a terrible team.

 

[Thund91]

Oh fuck yeah, Scyther. If you prevent rocks for even one turn, it's all bad. Sup Uxie and Mesprit, mind if I Taunt you? Thx. Free U-turn? Don't mind if I do. Who let Scizor in UU, lol.

Watch out for that mantis because I WILL be using it.

I don't really see how you're abusing Mesprit and Uxie with Scyther seeing as Mesprit can OHKO and Uxie will paralyze you, making your Scyther useless.

I do think its a good Pokemon though but highly overrated (kinda like Torterra is nowadays).

 

[M BLADE]

I see that people did forget about SD Scyther. What a shame...

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah well when Pokemon supposedly skirt the line so much it's worth keeping an eye on them and discuss every single facet of them.

And um....Yanmega? Moltres was nominated as a suspect? Just because a Pokemon requires a little bit of support by no means implies that it is not suspect.

And it's not that I don't "like" CCAT. I think it's a complete waste of space that accomplishes nothing besides producing a terrible team.

I honestly think they are incomparable however. I mean Yanmega generally had no safe switch in's and no counters on offense. Yanmega's Tinted Lens Specs boosted moved utterly raped it. I didn't even NEED to rely on Rapid Spin because I could literally get 1 or 2 kills for free if the opponent lacked a Chansey.

Yanmega (unlike Scyther) has been a suspect (or close too)from the get go. We've had Scyther for like forever. What's with the sudden discussion right now?
Scyther for one actually has counters. (Steelix and Registeel can take 2+ Brick Breaks and KO/cripple it back) I could defintely argue that RP Torterra is significantly more threatening than Scyther, and it even has a SR resist.

And we DID discuss every single facet. I've read about Milotic and Venusaur until my face turned blue. It's been done. We've had Milotic since the beginning of time (beginning of the UU metagame) and we've had Venusaur for a while too. These pokemon didn't get any better. (Okay Raikou's departure helped Milotic but still...) The nomination thread even proves it. Are you going literally discount all of those nominator's?

CCAT team's aren't even that useless. It'll get the community in an actual discussion instead of mindlessly looping over the same argument. What happens when finish talking about these supposed suspects? Do we talk about them some more? I think that you should give the CCAT another try before locking (why didn't you post your say, have other's respond and THEN lock it?).
See what the other's have to say about it.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I'm not arguing for or against what Scyther is I just brought it up as a Pokemon that has been getting more and more adept usage. It was just an example to keep an eye out for.

Though I have to point out your arguments are nothing less than backwards and contradictory. "I'd get 1 to 2 free kills if my opponent lacked a Chansey" (and to be complete let's throw Registeel in there). Yet the very next paragraph you say that Scyther is not comparable because it has counters. Well what is Chansey (and Registeel) for Yanmega?

Also if we're discussing Scyther in UU we should be discussing the Choice Band set, as that's the set that poses the biggest threat. Swords Dance really only compliments the fact that Scyther is an absolute beast. The problem with Scyther counters is that Scyther just u-turns out of them, and most counters outside those you listed are going to take a big chunk from u-turn. 4x grass resist and eq immunity means it can come in on some very popular Pokemon and u-turn around at it's hearts content while counters aren't counters but rather are Pokemon used to set up other members of your team. Just to cut you short from trying to relate scyther's uturn to any uturn because i know you'd be the type to strawman that-scyther is a base 110 attack stab uturn coming off of base 105 speed which is a shitton in uu.

As for community create a team, everyone has the means to already discuss underrated threats and what Pokemon work around those threats. The problem is that teambuilding isn't simply: Here's what I want to build around, here's what I need around it and voila there's my team. Building a good team is a painstaking process of testing and retesting that relies on individual playstyles on top of that. Having a bunch of people shout in a thread and vote on what the team should be is going to produce nothing useful 9/10 times. I'd rather not have the UU subforum clogged up with such nonsense as was decided when it was first created and the ccat idea was first presented.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm not arguing for or against what Scyther is I just brought it up as a Pokemon that has been getting more and more adept usage. It was just an example to keep an eye out for.

Gotcha.

Though I have to point out your arguments are nothing less than backwards and contradictory. "I'd get 1 to 2 free kills if my opponent lacked a Chansey" (and to be complete let's throw Registeel in there). Yet the very next paragraph you say that Scyther is not comparable because it has counters. Well what is Chansey (and Registeel) for Yanmega?

Sorry I wasn't quite clear. Yanmega had absolutely 1 counter. Chansey is the one and only. Specs Bug Buzz deals an astonishing 39.6% - 46.4%, and that's a 2HKO with entry hazards. Yanmega also had zero switch in's against offensive team's. I dare you to name me one. Scyther on the other hand can be stopped by Registeel, Steelix, Donphan and even offensive pokemon like Moltres (provided it hasn't boosted yet)

Also if we're discussing Scyther in UU we should be discussing the Choice Band set, as that's the set that poses the biggest threat. Swords Dance really only compliments the fact that Scyther is an absolute beast. The problem with Scyther counters is that Scyther just u-turns out of them, and most counters outside those you listed are going to take a big chunk from u-turn. 4x grass resist and eq immunity means it can come in on some very popular Pokemon and u-turn around at it's hearts content while counters aren't counters but rather are Pokemon used to set up other members of your team. Just to cut you short from trying to relate scyther's uturn to any uturn because i know you'd be the type to strawman that-scyther is a base 110 attack stab uturn coming off of base 105 speed which is a shitton in uu.

Watch it! That's below the belt and I'm no strawman! (at least try to hide the animosity)

The CB set is pretty damn good and sure, it's the superior set but it's not like SR hinders it severely. And before you say you can Rapid Spin it away, running spin blockers slightly hinders your plan.

As for community create a team, everyone has the means to already discuss underrated threats and what Pokemon work around those threats. The problem is that teambuilding isn't simply: Here's what I want to build around, here's what I need around it and voila there's my team. Building a good team is a painstaking process of testing and retesting that relies on individual playstyles on top of that. Having a bunch of people shout in a thread and vote on what the team should be is going to produce nothing useful 9/10 times. I'd rather not have the UU subforum clogged up with such nonsense as was decided when it was first created and the ccat idea was first presented.

I never saw the first CCAT, but the second CCAT (Aggron) was handled relatively well. And the team it produced was also pretty decent too.
I'm sure that UU players are more than capable of creating a team concept and playtesting it.

And shouting about teambuilding any better than shouting about the other crap we shout about in the UU Subforum? I suggest you mull the idea over with the other mods.

 

[M BLADE]

Everything has counters unless you're Ursaring (kidding... well, half kidding). So i think PK didn't really thought about the Yanmega thing. Yanmega has more than one counter. Damn, i used Lapras to counter it O_o

The thing is: Yanmega was clearly broken. Scyther is becoming a lot more effective as the meta "tightens up".
I believe Scyther isn't BL worthy: instead it's a top physical attacking poke with CB and SD sets. BP set is... subjetive, i guess.

My problem seems to be the "tighten up" thing: we have a stable metagame. Should we change it by "banning" some poke? And why change a stable meta?

 

[Demoness]

There is absolutly no reason to ban something just to change the metagame. we ban Pokes to stablize the metagame, not change it just because we get bored with the current one.

 

[SJCrew]

I don't really see how you're abusing Mesprit and Uxie with Scyther seeing as Mesprit can OHKO and Uxie will paralyze you, making your Scyther useless.

I do think its a good Pokemon though but highly overrated (kinda like Torterra is nowadays).

Easy: Taunt, Scyther, Uturn. Predict an attack (Grass Knot, Psychic), Scyther, Uturn. Mesprit won't KO unless you've faced me before and predict the switch in.

The metagame might be stable now, but it also has the potential to become unstable once a new set or threat is discovered, becomes popularized, and dominates the metagame. I'm not going to rule out the possibility that something we haven't discovered could come out of hiding and ruin UU.

 

[M BLADE]

There is absolutly no reason to ban something just to change the metagame. we ban Pokes to stablize the metagame, not change it just because we get bored with the current one.

And we have a stable meta now (i believe there's no one who disagress with that), yet some people tried to nominate some pokes (Milo and Venusaur to be exact).

Weird.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

SR hinders Yanmega just as much. I don't see why you keep bring SR up in an argument when both Pokemon in the debate are 4x SR weak. It's a nonfactor. PS spinning in UU is easy if you commit to it.

Scyther also has 0 switchins against offensive teams since obviously we're discounting Moltres because you said that Yanmega has 0 switchins on offensive teams yet Moltres could quite clearly switch in on it. What offensive Pokemon likes taking stab cb uturns besides moltres (or charizard!)? Also love how you said Yanmega has 0 offensive switchins then go on to mention that Scyther is stopped by defensive Pokemon.

 

[Scoopapa]

Easy: Taunt, Scyther, Uturn. Predict an attack (Grass Knot, Psychic), Scyther, Uturn. Mesprit won't KO unless you've faced me before and predict the switch in.

Honestly the constantly double-switch to Scyther tactic has gotten pretty predictable. It may make lesser players think you're oh so good at prediction, but against good players it often leads to Scyther switching in on attacks and dying. Generally it takes one double switch to realize ("oh he's doing that Scyther thing") then you just wait for an obvious moment when you'd be switching to Uxie and nail Scyther as it tries to switch in on you. U-turn is certainly useful and can be hard to exploit with STAB and Choice Band, but when people get obnoxiously aggressive and predictable about it it can backfire.

 

[PK Gaming]

SR hinders Yanmega just as much. I don't see why you keep bring SR up in an argument when both Pokemon in the debate are 4x SR weak. It's a nonfactor. PS spinning in UU is easy if you commit to it.

That's why people should settle for bulky Missy who beats down nearly every spinner 1 on 1. But yeah good point, I'll back down on that point.

Scyther also has 0 switchins against offensive teams since obviously we're discounting Moltres because you said that Yanmega has 0 switchins on offensive teams yet Moltres could quite clearly switch in on it. What offensive Pokemon likes taking stab cb uturns besides moltres (or charizard!)? Also love how you said Yanmega has 0 offensive switchins then go on to mention that Scyther is stopped by defensive Pokemon.

...Uh can I take back that last statement? There was no point in switching in Moltres into Yanmega because Air Slash was 2HKO (just like Aerial Ace is 2HKO from Scyther...)

Aggron and Rhyperior are offensive pokemon don't really mind taking anything Scyther can throw at it (aside from Brick Break) Aside from them, offensive Regirock can take Scyther on too. You know... this offensive pokemon switching into pokemon X is a red herring. I mean the offensive pokemon of UU are really inept at switching into anything really...

Yanmega had zero offensive pokemon. I'm sure of that.



PS: I'm still maintaining that CCAT for UU metagame is a good idea. At least one would do good. If it flops in any way I'll eat my lapel. (you have word on that one)

 

[FlareBlitz]

Playing around CB Scyther is like playing around SD Absol. Sure Absol has absolutely scary damage potential (being able to ko techtop after residual damage with sucker punch = wtf) but it's not that hard to beat if you predict around. Same with Scyther. If it comes in on Toxicroak, I'm staying in, eating the 4x U-Turn, and hitting whatever comes in hard. And if I think it'll attack the next time, I always have Rhyperior. It's even better when they lock themselves into Quick Attack to avoid Sucker Punch or revenge Sceptile or something, because then I go to Spiritomb and lolpursuit.

In general I am just very unimpressed by Pokemon like Scyther, Swellow, and Moltres. Maybe it's my playstyle, but I just hate Pokemon that are like "it has one big weakness but if you play around it, it can be really good". I couldn't even use Yanmega properly the last time it was down here (although obviously I agreed that it was broken). The Pokemon I like best are Pokemon like Arcanine, Venusaur, and Rotom, who can consistently pull off multiple sets easily and still function fairly well if their ideal conditions are not met. One-dimensional Pokemon like Scyther and Swellow almost never find a spot on my team and almost never sweep me anymore unless my game is off.

I don't think there's much to discuss with regards to Venusaur and Milotic. I've never thought Venusaur was broken and I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise. Sleep is always annoying, but I imagine those fuckers up in OU who have to deal with Breloom have it way worse than us. Still a bit on the fence about Milotic, mostly because I've mostly been gimmicking around lately and if there's something Milotic is damn good at, it's walling random shit from NU. Still don't think it's broken, but sometimes I think even if Lugia dropped down to UU I'd just run Houndoom and CB Rhyperior on every team and tell people to stop bitching, so my opinion probably isn't the best to go by there. I just have a hard time figuring any defensive Pokemon to be "broken", because whenever you get stalled out it doesn't sting nearly as much as getting swept, and it's definitely not as obvious.

 

[Thund91]

Honestly the constantly double-switch to Scyther tactic has gotten pretty predictable. It may make lesser players think you're oh so good at prediction, but against good players it often leads to Scyther switching in on attacks and dying. Generally it takes one double switch to realize ("oh he's doing that Scyther thing") then you just wait for an obvious moment when you'd be switching to Uxie and nail Scyther as it tries to switch in on you. U-turn is certainly useful and can be hard to exploit with STAB and Choice Band, but when people get obnoxiously aggressive and predictable about it it can backfire.

This, basically.

It's also funny when they switch Scyther in on my Toxicroak and U-turn thinking I'm all frightened, its happened like 4053409 times. The Scyther basically lets my Toxicroak set up, it's quite hilarious.

Edit:Didn't see Flare's post hehe

 

[capefeather]

I can see where Jabba is coming from. I know of two OU CCATs and a Little Cup CCAT. I don't really know about Little Cup, but with the two OU CCATs, they didn't have any impact on the metagame in the end. Heracross is still in the same danger zone, Aggron is still lol in usage, and neither is anywhere near the archive. Teambuilding does depend a lot on the individual, and I guess people shouldn't have assumed that a collective could achieve what an individual can.

I'd also like to point out the flaw in the sleep comparisons between Breloom in OU and Venusaur in UU. We can see that OU teams can handle guaranteed sleep on one Pokémon. However, can we say the same thing about UU teams? Can UU teams handle a 75% accuracy sleep move from a Grass-type? I don't believe that comparisons to Breloom say much about UU. UU and OU are different metagames, and they can "handle" different things. I think that sometimes we lose sight of this.

The other thing I don't get is the argument against "sleeper suspects". Did people forget the long and painful Raikou/Froslass debacle? That dragged on for so long... Personally, I intend to stick with my UU opinion on Venusaur, Milotic and Moltres in particular for now, but I don't see why I should be closed to the possibility that they are BL.

 

[Viashino_wizard]

Another thing is that Venasaur is the #1 used pokemon in UU whereas Breloom is not nearly as prevailent in OU.

 

[GOTO2435]

Another thing is that Venasaur is the #1 used pokemon in UU whereas Breloom is not nearly as prevailent in OU.

Yeah but sleep does not make a pokemon broken, venusaur can be countered by a lot of things and it doesn´t help that once a pokemon it asleep it can´t touch fire types who are on every team

 

[Xenoxeran]

It might not be my place to say this, but why bother complaining about Venasaur and Milotic and focus more on finding out a way to counter them? I'm pretty sure there is a way, we would just have to find it.

 

[capefeather]

Have you seen the arguments made for banning Venusaur or Milotic at all? People have put significant effort into showing that they should at least be voted on. So no, it's not just "complaining".

 

[Xenoxeran]

Sorry, bad choice of words. But still, if you put that much effort to get them banned, then you could have put that much effort into thinking of a way to beat them. Would it be more valuable to be the one to get them banned or to be the one who found a way to beat them?

 

[Rolf]

Because sometimes there just isn't a way to beat them. Trust me, I have dived into the smogon.com/dp/pokemon page more times then I can count, messed with the organization, looked at base stats that I need, looked for fun setup moves that pokes have, and really there is not much outside of 1) SpD grass types 2) Calm Mind sweepers not weak to water (moot with Haze) and 3) Rotom/Lanturn that can switch in on Moltres consistently and do something afterwards. It's the conclusion I've come to. FlareBlitz's earlier post is actually the crux of what Milotic is to me: "Still a bit on the fence about Milotic, mostly because I've mostly been gimmicking around lately and if there's something Milotic is good at, it's walling random stuff from NU." It limits much of the creativity that you could otherwise use to antimetagame. There's just not much I can find. As far as Venusaur goes, try finding something other then like RestTalk Weezing who can consistently take Sleep Powders and still do stuff to something other then Venusaur.

I know there are more offensive ways to get around Milotic but they usually require two Pokemon or more. I don't mean to make Milotic sound like some deity, but it really is a great Pokemon and I definitely see where others would come from if they pushed it to BL. (and I know where I would come from too!)

 

[SJCrew]

Playing around CB Scyther is like playing around SD Absol. Sure Absol has absolutely scary damage potential (being able to ko techtop after residual damage with sucker punch = wtf) but it's not that hard to beat if you predict around. Same with Scyther. If it comes in on Toxicroak, I'm staying in, eating the 4x U-Turn, and hitting whatever comes in hard. And if I think it'll attack the next time, I always have Rhyperior. It's even better when they lock themselves into Quick Attack to avoid Sucker Punch or revenge Sceptile or something, because then I go to Spiritomb and lolpursuit.

so u have perfect prediction and the scyther player doesn't wat

and uh guys there's this move called grass knot that beats milotic every time, mesprit and uxie are incredibly bulky and can take two or three surfs before going down, not to mention almost every psychic/water/grass in the tier that learns it and a lot of them have recovery so.....

 

[TEA_DEMON]

Because Grass Knot with 100 power will beat something with 95/125 defenses every time right?