Yah, probably won't be voting since I'm not that great of a player and probably won't meet the rating, anyways, I'm all for retesting Crobat to give us a better idea at it's capabilities. The rest of them, not really. Frosslass would be close, but Destiny Bond on top of it's speed and spikes is just a bit too much I think, it would fit under support.
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np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects
- Thread starter Caelum
- Start date
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Regardless of whether or not Abomasnow has counters, it was not voted suspect because of its ability (or lack thereof) to sweep. It was voted suspect because of auto-Hail and the way it powers up Walrein and Snow Cloak users, which it can do even if it only lasts one turn.
Well, obviously that cannot be the reason he is a suspect. If it is, then he needs to be retested. Because it was more than just the Hail that made him so intolerable, looking at Stats/ Typing/ Ability. Also if he was voted suspect for that reason then Snover, having the same ability, should be a suspect. Point is, there was more to Abomasnow than his ability.
First of all, even if it's not Choiced, Staraptor is played like a Choiced Pokemon. What I mean by this is that it is reliant on prediction to get KOs.
For example, Max Atk Adamant Life Orb Staraptor deals 18.64% - 22.03% to Relaxed 252 HP/0 Def Steelix with Brave Bird. Close Combat deals 49.72% - 58.76% to the same Steelix.
120 Atk Stone Edge vs min/min (-1) Staraptor: 93.25% - 109.97%.
So if Staraptor Brave Birds on the switch and Close Combats, it's not going to kill Steelix before it itself dies. However, a Close Combat on the switch will 2HKO.
If Slowbro switches in on Staraptor's Brave Bird, it gets killed the next turn. However, if it switches in a Close Combat, it will survive the ensuing Brave Bird and be able to defeat Staraptor through paralyzing with Thunder Wave.
These would not really be "counters" by the definition because they are 2HKOed by Staraptor.
But look at Salamence in OU. Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Outrage/Earthquake @ Life Orb can hit 2HKO just about everything except for a few Pokemon. (Cresselia and Bronzong come to mind.) But it is reliant on extremely accurate prediction in order to do so.
This is comparable to Staraptor. It must hit Steelix on the switch with the right move (Close Combat) to defeat it. There are other examples, including Spiritomb, Regirock, Registeel (depending on its EV spread; the standard one posted in the analysis can't really do this), Rotom (actually Rotom isn't 2HKOed by LO Brave Bird), etc.
To sum my point up: Staraptor does not have many "counters" by the book definition. Its sweeps, however, are capable of being hindered if the user of Staraptor does not use the correct move. There are both Pokemon that can switch in on its STABs and not get KOed by an ensuing hit, and Pokemon that can switch on Close Combat and not get KOed by an ensuing hit.
I'm not sure if I can use this as a basis for this argument, but I do recall reading one similar to it in a discussion about Salamence.
Now, if Staraptor is Choice Banded, it's even more reliant on prediction. If Nidoqueen switches in on Close Combat, Staraptor is forced to switch. I think this was discussed in the old UU thread pertaining to Aerodactyl.
If these points have already been stricken down, I would like to see the thread where it was. edit: Actually I would appreciate just seeing it if anybody recalls where it was posted.
For the record: Max Atk Adamant (most run Jolly mind you) -1 atk (for Intimidate) Cross Poison on max/max Luxray: 15.11% - 18.13%. In fact, if you crit three times it's a 4HKO.
Thunderbolt on 104 HP/0 Sdef Crobat from min atk Luxray: 35.01% - 41.84%
For example, Max Atk Adamant Life Orb Staraptor deals 18.64% - 22.03% to Relaxed 252 HP/0 Def Steelix with Brave Bird. Close Combat deals 49.72% - 58.76% to the same Steelix.
120 Atk Stone Edge vs min/min (-1) Staraptor: 93.25% - 109.97%.
So if Staraptor Brave Birds on the switch and Close Combats, it's not going to kill Steelix before it itself dies. However, a Close Combat on the switch will 2HKO.
If Slowbro switches in on Staraptor's Brave Bird, it gets killed the next turn. However, if it switches in a Close Combat, it will survive the ensuing Brave Bird and be able to defeat Staraptor through paralyzing with Thunder Wave.
These would not really be "counters" by the definition because they are 2HKOed by Staraptor.
But look at Salamence in OU. Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Outrage/Earthquake @ Life Orb can hit 2HKO just about everything except for a few Pokemon. (Cresselia and Bronzong come to mind.) But it is reliant on extremely accurate prediction in order to do so.
This is comparable to Staraptor. It must hit Steelix on the switch with the right move (Close Combat) to defeat it. There are other examples, including Spiritomb, Regirock, Registeel (depending on its EV spread; the standard one posted in the analysis can't really do this), Rotom (actually Rotom isn't 2HKOed by LO Brave Bird), etc.
To sum my point up: Staraptor does not have many "counters" by the book definition. Its sweeps, however, are capable of being hindered if the user of Staraptor does not use the correct move. There are both Pokemon that can switch in on its STABs and not get KOed by an ensuing hit, and Pokemon that can switch on Close Combat and not get KOed by an ensuing hit.
I'm not sure if I can use this as a basis for this argument, but I do recall reading one similar to it in a discussion about Salamence.
Now, if Staraptor is Choice Banded, it's even more reliant on prediction. If Nidoqueen switches in on Close Combat, Staraptor is forced to switch. I think this was discussed in the old UU thread pertaining to Aerodactyl.
If these points have already been stricken down, I would like to see the thread where it was. edit: Actually I would appreciate just seeing it if anybody recalls where it was posted.
Who runs Cross Poison? It's not even on the list of most used attacks by Crobat according to Doug's stats. Cross Poison has a chance of Poison, but Thunderbolt has a chance for paralysis, not to mention that Luxray can just run Thunderwave anyway, forcing Crobat into a guessing game between Taunt and Roost.
For the record: Max Atk Adamant (most run Jolly mind you) -1 atk (for Intimidate) Cross Poison on max/max Luxray: 15.11% - 18.13%. In fact, if you crit three times it's a 4HKO.
Thunderbolt on 104 HP/0 Sdef Crobat from min atk Luxray: 35.01% - 41.84%
If Froslass was not a suspect as well, and Snover was actually used, it might be. I stand by that.
Eo, this is exactly why we don't want Staraptor. In a metagme where variety thrives, there SHOULD be something that reliably forces it out, or at least to U-Turn. Also, there are pokemon that don't mind T-Wave and a non-powerful Rock Move out there. If it decides to run Roost, it can just switch out, and the user can take the oppurtunity to set up. In other words, Staraptor is likely to be one of the last pokemon they let get killed. Actually, I tried proving Mence Uber for those reasons - but the community does not want it. OU is also alot smaller, meaning Mence can get away with 2HKOing the entire metagame. Don't ask me why, that's what I tried arguing against.
About Luxray, Crobat can Taunt and then repetitively stall it. If no cross poison, Roost back some HP (hoping no paralysis) then U-Turn works just fine. And Crobat is still alive. Now with a Taunt, Luxray becomes much, much less useful. Also, about Luxray, it runs no recovery, so you will find it worn out quickly.
Exclamation Point, I think it was the fact that it could act like a second Walerin (SubSeed) and hit hard as well (Blizzard, in certain cases, Wood Hammer).
About Luxray, Crobat can Taunt and then repetitively stall it. If no cross poison, Roost back some HP (hoping no paralysis) then U-Turn works just fine. And Crobat is still alive. Now with a Taunt, Luxray becomes much, much less useful. Also, about Luxray, it runs no recovery, so you will find it worn out quickly.
Exclamation Point, I think it was the fact that it could act like a second Walerin (SubSeed) and hit hard as well (Blizzard, in certain cases, Wood Hammer).
Eo. I can accept the Staraptor is similar to Salamence mentality. However, some where I see an issue with move selection comparison due to speed tiers. Salamence is relatively slow for OU while Staraptor is hanging pretty high on the UU side. Or perhaps, this has nothing to do with anything.
In response to EUM's attempt to assert that the Life Orb Staraptor is still played like a Choiced one, I must say that that is blatently false. The Life Orb set employs the use of Substitute to effectively eliminate prediction all together. Not to mention that it also uses Roost to stay in top performance the entire game long.
I'll even throw you a bone and describe a situation like this.
Let's say Staraptor comes in, you switch to that Slowbro of yours. I substitute.
Now you have no choice but to break the sub, and eat a Brave Bird. Now let's say that I don't predict and I just spam Brave Bird again to kill your Slowbro and you switch to Steelix. You've forced me to switch out, yes, but you've done absolutely nothing else... and you're down ~70% across two Pokemon.
Next time I bring my Staraptor in, I don't even have to Sub. I just spam Close Combat. If you bring in Slowbro again, you're 2HKOd by Close Combat, and if you bring in Steelix.. you're obviously 2HKOd by Close Combat.
This is not at all a "theorymonned" argument. It's actually a scenario that happened all the time when I used Life Orb Staraptor.
When you throw out the "prediction beats it" argument, Staraptor becomes a hell of a lot less reasonable.
I'll even throw you a bone and describe a situation like this.
Let's say Staraptor comes in, you switch to that Slowbro of yours. I substitute.
Now you have no choice but to break the sub, and eat a Brave Bird. Now let's say that I don't predict and I just spam Brave Bird again to kill your Slowbro and you switch to Steelix. You've forced me to switch out, yes, but you've done absolutely nothing else... and you're down ~70% across two Pokemon.
Next time I bring my Staraptor in, I don't even have to Sub. I just spam Close Combat. If you bring in Slowbro again, you're 2HKOd by Close Combat, and if you bring in Steelix.. you're obviously 2HKOd by Close Combat.
This is not at all a "theorymonned" argument. It's actually a scenario that happened all the time when I used Life Orb Staraptor.
When you throw out the "prediction beats it" argument, Staraptor becomes a hell of a lot less reasonable.
Well obviously the choiced Staraptors rely on prediction and in my experience are extremely and laughably easy to work around. And since they don't have roost SR and just about any hit ends it.
For the sub set, ok you get a free sub on my counter and you may kill my Steelix but then the gimmick is up. I now know that I can straight out attack you and you already took sr, sub, and possibly lo damage from killing my Steelix. What's funny though is the Steelix set I use CC is a 3hko meaning Raptor is screwed with or without a sub XD.
For the sub set, ok you get a free sub on my counter and you may kill my Steelix but then the gimmick is up. I now know that I can straight out attack you and you already took sr, sub, and possibly lo damage from killing my Steelix. What's funny though is the Steelix set I use CC is a 3hko meaning Raptor is screwed with or without a sub XD.
Look at it this way. Once your steelix is gone (I don't think there is a Stelix that survives 2 Close Combats), what are you going to send in to counter Staraptor. She's at worse at 40% health, so you need 2 counters in order to properly kill. Also, if I renember the calcs right, no Steelix can survive a thing like that... but let me check. Also, renember, Roost nullifies it's rock weakness.
EDIT: Yah, just checked, Max Defense, Max HP Steelix has only a 50% chance to survive with Leftovers after Spikes for Max Attack Life Orb Staraptor. And Steelix lacks the power to 1HKO Staraptor with only 6 EVs. Stealth Rock raises this, but as said, you cannot 1HKO, so what? Besides, I would call that "specifying in order to counter".
EDIT:
Staraptor's Close Combat vs. max/max Steelix:
372 Atk vs 548 Def & 354 HP (120 Base Power): 230 - 272 (64.97% - 76.84%)
Still looks like a 2HKO to me. You're done for whether it subs up or not, and you won't even get off a Gyro Ball, let alone a Stone Edge.
Staraptor's Close Combat vs. max/max Steelix:
372 Atk vs 548 Def & 354 HP (120 Base Power): 230 - 272 (64.97% - 76.84%)
Still looks like a 2HKO to me. You're done for whether it subs up or not, and you won't even get off a Gyro Ball, let alone a Stone Edge.
What? Hold on a moment. How is Steelix useless again?
Steelix is one of the most reliable options to set up SR, and walls many pokemon comfortably, like Ambipom, Registeel itself, CB Tauros to an extent, and a lot of other physical attackers. How that makes it "useless" is beyond me. Maybe if we weren't stuck with the mentality of "Old UU pokes are useless", people would realise that Steelix is far from useless.
Who even said that?
Forget all of this theorymonning I'm just going to keep it simple. I easily countered Staraptor in all of my games with a Chople berry Steelix, Scyther, and a poke faster then Staraptor. It's not overcentralizing because the pokes do a hell of alot other things besides just countering Staraptor, the chople berry stopped stabbed cc users, gallade, hp fighting etc. If I knew return or brave bird was coming free switch to Steelix and Staraptor is done, if a CC is coming switch to Scyther, if that somehow failed (rarely) it's health is depleted and I easily revenge kill it with priority or speed. Idc about flawed calcs when I've actually experience it. I was honest about Raikou being BL but I can't say the same for Staraptor which I even put on my team and was underwhelmed.
Seconding the whole "Sub Staraptor is bullshit" thing. When I used it, it was exactly like what LN said. Intimidate means it's not bad at scaring things out, which means that it can Sub on the switch, and since it 2KOs the entire metagame, and you can't OHKO it, this means thatyou're hosed.
As for Raikou, I used a Shuca Berry variant with HP Fire and Shadow Ball as my coverage moves, and the only common counter to that set was Chansey. Sure, there was other stuff that beat me every once in a while, but I could just switch out of that and ruin shit. I honestly think that those two Pokemon, along with Froslass, first off made up 1/2 of any successful offensive team, and second, forced ridiculous amounts of specialization.
EDIT: Chople Berry Steelix? Really? And even then, it wasn't enough to just win outright? Considering that Lefties is Steelix' only form of healing, you really aren't getting far, and putting a type resist berry on something with 75/200 defenses just seems ridiculous to me.
As for Raikou, I used a Shuca Berry variant with HP Fire and Shadow Ball as my coverage moves, and the only common counter to that set was Chansey. Sure, there was other stuff that beat me every once in a while, but I could just switch out of that and ruin shit. I honestly think that those two Pokemon, along with Froslass, first off made up 1/2 of any successful offensive team, and second, forced ridiculous amounts of specialization.
EDIT: Chople Berry Steelix? Really? And even then, it wasn't enough to just win outright? Considering that Lefties is Steelix' only form of healing, you really aren't getting far, and putting a type resist berry on something with 75/200 defenses just seems ridiculous to me.
Lets all remember Jumpman16's characteristic's of what defines an Uber.
I have not been following this thread very closely, But it sounds like Chansey is getting alot of meantion. So a rival says that no pokemon has ever been banned due to being a bonafied wall. But if a pokemon fulfills even 1 characteristic (ex. Jumpluff fulfilling the Support characteristic) Could it still not be ban? Or does a pokemon need to fulfill all three Offense Defense Support to be considered bannable? Or two of them? O_o
Anyway, im not suggesting the banning of Chansey or Clefable (yet at any rate) Blissey isn't ban from OU so theres really no reason to ban Chansey.
I have not been following this thread very closely, But it sounds like Chansey is getting alot of meantion. So a rival says that no pokemon has ever been banned due to being a bonafied wall. But if a pokemon fulfills even 1 characteristic (ex. Jumpluff fulfilling the Support characteristic) Could it still not be ban? Or does a pokemon need to fulfill all three Offense Defense Support to be considered bannable? Or two of them? O_o
Anyway, im not suggesting the banning of Chansey or Clefable (yet at any rate) Blissey isn't ban from OU so theres really no reason to ban Chansey.
Since LN and SDS already covered the 'but non-choice Staraptor uses Substitute' error, I'll just say a bit about SR and Staraptor.
The funny thing is, U-turn actually does a very good job keeping SR off the field in the first place. If you rely on something like Steelix or Registeel to set up SR, and Staraptor U-turns through it to Typhlosion, you're often in serious trouble. If you're using Rock types to do it, say hello to Shaymin. We love to assume SR is always up, but with the efficacy of Taunt in UU coupled with an offensive team that knows how to stay ahead of the game - it's not. My successful stall teams often have problems with getting SR up versus good teams, but it was much more difficult when Staraptor was around forcing the action (and I used different SRers as a result).
The funny thing is, U-turn actually does a very good job keeping SR off the field in the first place. If you rely on something like Steelix or Registeel to set up SR, and Staraptor U-turns through it to Typhlosion, you're often in serious trouble. If you're using Rock types to do it, say hello to Shaymin. We love to assume SR is always up, but with the efficacy of Taunt in UU coupled with an offensive team that knows how to stay ahead of the game - it's not. My successful stall teams often have problems with getting SR up versus good teams, but it was much more difficult when Staraptor was around forcing the action (and I used different SRers as a result).
Well good job on showing complete and utter ignorance of the whole 'Counters do not determine a Pokemon's tiering' discussion we've been having over the last 3-4 pages.
Anyway, about the whole controversy that Staraptor can 2HKO everything without predcition. First of all, that isn't strictly true as has been said many times, but also, there are these moves called Reflect and Counter that many good Pokemon can learn and use viably which should see more use, especially on teams that have trouble with powerful physical sweepers. In fact, Reflect / Rest Raikou was one of the most successful forms I'd ever used as it screwed with the common counter at the time, Registeel, through Pressure stalling whilst providing team support at the same time. Countered SubRoost 'Raptor easily, and could at the very least check other variants decently by taking BB / CC and outrunning to set up Reflect or threaten an OHKO.
Not that it means Staraptor is UU material, and I personally still think it's BL, but let's give fair consideration to both sides shall we? Also:
Staraptor does not get STAB on Close Combat, which I'm assuming is the mistake you made there.
So, why do people want Frosslass banned? Offensive Characteristic: Certainly not, Defensive? no.
Support...hmm. Is two layers of spikes consistently making it easier for another pokemon to sweep? Whats the difference between banning skarmory from OU and frosslass from OU, just because they are good spikers.
Support...hmm. Is two layers of spikes consistently making it easier for another pokemon to sweep? Whats the difference between banning skarmory from OU and frosslass from OU, just because they are good spikers.
I believe that the problem with froslass was her usefulness as a suicide lead. Being immune to fake out, and having access to taunt, spikes and destiny bond, combined with her 110 base speed, as well as having a stab ice beam to hurt crobat, made her probably the best UU lead ever. I'm not sure if she fits in the BL support characteristic, though.
the difference between skarmory and froslass is that froslass is guarenteed to get a layer up no matter what
People, I will now quote Master Oogway from Kung Fu Panda, "You will not train him unless you forget the illusion of control." The uu metagame is like this. Everyone is being involved in a post war (this will probubly end up getting involved in one as well), but if we want to truly experiance the uu metagame, we must do what the uu metagame was created to do, and enjoy the small stuff. Abomasnow giving you problems? Use flamethrower clefable! Are you having problems with spikes, or shamin? Run Rest talk Regice and Rapid spin! Are bulky waters getting you down? Use Raichu or Pikachu! Seriosly people, take a chill pill, and discuss what new and awsome pokemon your using.
Not only is that not true (say a Scarfed Pokémon that normally sets up on Froslass uses an attack, it burns Taunt and is faster so it KOs), is getting a layer of Spikes out "no matter what" inherently broken? I mean, SR does more damage than that and is available on more Pokémon that have guaranteedish ways of throwing it up.
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