np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects

[Stagnant]

I agree with Eo 100%.. on every topic he touched on.

Anyways, I understand that a deadline has been set but looking at the leader boards I am confident that we have enough competent players to speak for the whole UU community. So with that said I would like to request that we move ahead of schedule.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I do indeed agree, and here's one example.

I had been arguing against Staraptor's banning because Luxray is a surefire counter against it. Some people have sort of dismissed this argument because "it's Luxray." While there may be other aspects of Staraptor that will get it banned, I want to point out that one cannot overlook a counter just because it seems ridiculous or extremely specific counter on first sight. Luxray is not an "overspecialized" counter; it handles Kabutops, Feraligatr, Azumarill, Honchkrow, Scyther, Crobat, and other such Pokemon very well. I used it extensively in the early stages of the new UU, and it served me extremely well. Speaking of which, Luxray can set up a Light Screen or Roar out Raikou if need be, though that probably isn't the best usage of it.

Now, if Luxray can do so much for a team, is it that hard to believe the Quagsire can be more useful than a Raikou counter?

Certainly not, and I agree that Luxray is far more useful than just countering Staraptor. You actually bring up a good point about Light Screen, as it allows Luxray to act as a makeshift Raikou check alongside Roar or a strong neutral physical attack (Return / Crunch?) that can consistently break the Subs. This is the kind of 'creative solution' thing I've been trying to hit home, and sort of backs up my point about the avenues of exploitability that Raikou's lack of Taunt and powerful coverage (in this example), as well as the need for several turns to get going, can bring to the table.

I don't necessarily agree with your assertion that Staraptor should not be BL just because it has a reliable counter, but I'm sure you didn't quite mean it in that sense. For the record, I'm currently leaning towards BL for Staraptor, but I can certainly sympathize with arguments against it as it has not been an easy one to call. My main reasoning as to why I think its moreBL-worthy than Raikou is somewhat related to its ability to pose an immediate threat with effortlessly powerful coverage as well as the speed to abuse it. I'm working on my full arguments right now though, which I'll post sometime this week.

Also, Chansey can beat Raikou no matter what set it runs. This is not an overspecialization, nor does not necessarily require an additional check.

CroKou? I used to use it to much success in the past, despite the fact that its completely walled by Ground types and other Electric resists with the ability to hit back hard. It certainly worked well against teams overreliant on Chansey to beat me though, as well as alongside a Ground lure. Just saying.

 

[Heysup]

I don't play that one-dimensionaly. (At least not consistently.)

Of course im not saying that happens every time, Im saying you could not mispredict once, or you would be put at an incredible disadvantage because Raikou only needs 2 Calm Minds to beat Chansey, unlike Espeon who cant abuse Pressure or Take 4 Stosses. I would like to say it "encouraged" you to play one-dimensionaly (though you often outplayed me through this, its an example of the "presence" of Raikou).

I had been arguing against Staraptor's banning because Luxray is a surefire counter against it. Some people have sort of dismissed this argument because "it's Luxray." While there may be other aspects of Staraptor that will get it banned, I want to point out that one cannot overlook a counter just because it seems ridiculous or extremely specific counter on first sight. Luxray is not an "overspecialized" counter; it handles Kabutops, Feraligatr, Azumarill, Honchkrow, Scyther, Crobat, and other such Pokemon very well. I used it extensively in the early stages of the new UU, and it served me extremely well. Speaking of which, Luxray can set up a Light Screen or Roar out Raikou if need be, though that probably isn't the best usage of it.

Now, if Luxray can do so much for a team, is it that hard to believe the Quagsire can be more useful than a Raikou counter?

I know how good Luxray is, trust me, if you remember from a while back he was the lead to my team (and i miss that team terribly....). But the difference is that Luxray can do (some) stuff for a team (while i still dont think it means Staraptor should be UU), Quagsire can effectively do nothing but take Rock And Water attacks untill it faints from lack of recovery.

So yes i will still say Quagsire does not function other then an HP Ice Raikou counter.

Certainly not, and I agree that Luxray is far more useful than just countering Staraptor. You actually bring up a good point about Light Screen, as it allows Luxray to act as a makeshift Raikou check alongside Roar or a strong neutral physical attack (Return / Crunch?) that can consistently break the Subs. This is the kind of 'creative solution' thing I've been trying to hit home, and sort of backs up my point about the avenues of exploitability that Raikou's lack of Taunt and powerful coverage (in this example), as well as the need for several turns to get going, can bring to the table.

I have to agree with Qib because I saw your team, and there is no way I would lose against it a second time (or probably the first time if i wasnt playing 2 battles at once..but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt), because all of these Pokemon were either not seen for a while, and I had next to no experience against any of them, I only beleive I would lose once (e.g. Now i know Honchkrow cant 2HKO Gligar, which i wasted him on.)

 

[Relictivity]

I had been arguing against Staraptor's banning because Luxray is a surefire counter against it. Some people have sort of dismissed this argument because "it's Luxray." While there may be other aspects of Staraptor that will get it banned, I want to point out that one cannot overlook a counter just because it seems ridiculous or extremely specific counter on first sight. Luxray is not an "overspecialized" counter; it handles Kabutops, Feraligatr, Azumarill, Honchkrow, Scyther, Crobat, and other such Pokemon very well. I used it extensively in the early stages of the new UU, and it served me extremely well. Speaking of which, Luxray can set up a Light Screen or Roar out Raikou if need be, though that probably isn't the best usage of it.

Now, if Luxray can do so much for a team, is it that hard to believe the Quagsire can be more useful than a Raikou counter?

Also, Chansey can beat Raikou no matter what set it runs. This is not an overspecialization, nor does not necessarily require an additional check.

UU is an enviroment with many pokemon, and not every team should be required Luxray, Chansey, or Regice. Earlier, someone gave me a list of Raikou counters for 1 set, with 1 HP, and it was eliminated down to four. That's not good enough for UU, which is supposed to be a greatly varied tier, not a highly specified one. When a pokemon approaches fewer than 8 "possible counters" I start getting iffy about how UU it is. When it approaches 6, I really doubt how UU can cope with it. However 4 - that's ridiculous. And that's for only one variety of hidden power, and one of those counters only worked 50% of the time. You can't expect everyone to run Chansey and Luxray, as they are both especially prone to setup by other pokemon. Also, whose to say that the Raikou user WON'T switch out. It still has 62.5% of it's HP left (assuming SR). It's still useable. Also, who said ALL Raikou's are Calm Minders. Many of them run that set, but not ALL do. In fact, ScarfRaikou is an excellent lead, if you put the right moves on it.

IMO, please don't mention Chansey to me, I hate the idea of having Pursuit-bait on my team more than anybody can imagine :/

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I have to agree with Qib because I saw your team, and there is no way I would lose against it a second time (or probably the first time if i wasnt playing 2 battles at once..but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt), because all of these Pokemon were either not seen for a while, and I had next to no experience against any of them, I only beleive I would lose once (e.g. Now i know Honchkrow cant 2HKO Gligar, which i wasted him on.)

How big-headed of you, and what are you basing this on exactly? I don't see anything about your team that can guarantee a win against mine, and prediction goes both ways. In fact, I can see certain disadvantages with your team (e.g. Blaziken is pretty much dead weight against my team because everything outspeeds it and can either OHKO or set up on it easily, whilst 4 out of 6 resist Vacuum Wave). But enough of this talk because it isn't really getting us everywhere. I'm just overall annoyed by the extreme level of unjustifiable scorn against Pokemon and strategies that successfully deviate from the standard, and the need amongst many to separate everything into two defined categories: 'standard' and 'gimmick'. It actually says a lot as to why there aren't more people with high ratings.

IMO, please don't mention Chansey to me, I hate the idea of having Pursuit-bait on my team more than anybody can imagine :/

Chansey learns Counter btw, just in case you didn't know (unless it is being Pursuited by Spiritomb that you're worried about the most). After Seismic Toss and recovery move, there are two slots left to be filled by a wide varety of support options. Choose the two that suit you and your team the best.

Oh, and sorry for mentioning Chansey.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Chansey. I've never used it myself, but it's a real pain.

(CounterChanse is more viable than you think, unless the opponent is packing STAB Close Combat or Superpower, you can almost guarantee a KO off the Counter. Still not as effective as Counterbliss in OU, though. HAhahahaha Tyranitar.)

Anyways, I'm truly finding that it's hard to play with Pokémon that are non-standard for an extensive period of time, in today's metagame. For example, when I started using my current team, only one of the Pokémon on it was popular. No one knew how to handle a Roserade lead that could fire off an attack with power of 225, and subsquently I claimed a lot of easy wins simply by crippling the enemy through ignorance. However, over time Foresight Hitmontop, Lead Roserade, and Moltres in general became more popular, and I found myself struggling to compete against my own strategies, forcing me to end up having to change my team just to counter what was in effect myself. (See: Dodrio, Rock Slide, Probopass).

Over time, the metagame will evolve to the point in which today's "gimmicks", as they may be referred to, will be tomorrow's "standards". If a player can't adapt to that and is stuck in rut of using the same few Pokémon to consistently win, then that player won't get very far, particularly in UU where there's way more strategy than "Dual Screen to BP Gliscor to DD Salamence lol GG". But that's just my opinion.

 

[QibingZero]

I had been arguing against Staraptor's banning because Luxray is a surefire counter against it. Some people have sort of dismissed this argument because "it's Luxray." While there may be other aspects of Staraptor that will get it banned, I want to point out that one cannot overlook a counter just because it seems ridiculous or extremely specific counter on first sight. Luxray is not an "overspecialized" counter; it handles Kabutops, Feraligatr, Azumarill, Honchkrow, Scyther, Crobat, and other such Pokemon very well. I used it extensively in the early stages of the new UU, and it served me extremely well. Speaking of which, Luxray can set up a Light Screen or Roar out Raikou if need be, though that probably isn't the best usage of it.

Now, if Luxray can do so much for a team, is it that hard to believe the Quagsire can be more useful than a Raikou counter?

Also, Chansey can beat Raikou no matter what set it runs. This is not an overspecialization, nor does not necessarily require an additional check.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I argue that a counter existing for a pokemon does not mean it isn't broken. So we have one pokemon to choose from to deal with the most serious threats in the metagame - great. 'Chansey stops Raikou, so Raikou is not BL' is not a valid definition, even if it were true (Rest versions beat Chansey, Roar versions beat Regice, etc). This is the kind of thinking that would create a metagame as centralized as Ubers within a few months. I mean, have you noticed how much more diverse things are now? You don't have to run specialized counters for pokemon like Raikou and Staraptor, so instead of seeing Camerupt, Luxray, and friends being mostly sitting ducks (no offense to P2 here), you have other strong pokemon stepping up to compete. Maybe I'm not being clear enough here. The problem here is that:

These pokemon force you to run overspecialized counters which are easily exploited.

The main idea here is Staraptor's U-turn. Assuming Staraptor is going to use U-turn is just too risky the vast majority of the time. So, your switch-in is often going to be U-turned through and forced out again, likely taking residual damage from field effects, which are very popular in UU right now. Staraptor's threat is so large, that even if you have a decent switch into it, you're probably going to be foiled by U-turn.

A word about Luxray while I'm at it: I'm not really sure how Luxray does well against most of the pokemon you mention. Kabutops still rips it up (vs max/max+):

+1 LO Waterfall in rain: 88.19% - 103.85%
+1 LO Stone Edge: 73.63% - 86.81%

Hell, Lux needs to reinvest 100 or so EVs into speed to beat Adamant CB Azumarill, and only does 70-80% back to it with Tbolt anyway. It's 3HKOed even with the most defensive spread possible, so it really needs to outspeed. Feraligatr and Honchkrow, Luxray is alright against, but Scyther and Crobat are U-turning anyway. Even these pokemon are dangerous due to Luxray not having any recovery, though.

Luxray's problem remains - what is it doing even if it forces a switch? Toxic? Roar? An extremely weak attack? This is another reason why I say these pokemon are easy to exploit. They don't actually do much of anything to allow you to take the advantage, and they lack the reliable recovery necessary to continue switching in. Furthermore, there is a reason why you don't see many of the pokemon in question now that we are testing without the suspects. Those pokemon just aren't quality UU material, and are pretty bad when they aren't being forced into action by a single pokemon's existence.

Frankly, you can find a decent counter for just about every pokemon, but that fact alone does not make the pokemon 'okay'.

I mean, people are talking about Quagsire here, which is nearly the ultimate example. Quagsire can take on Kyogre, who is generally considered to be the most powerful pokemon in D/P. Hell, Parasect and Ludicolo do pretty well too, and are actually threatening in some sense. Does that make Kyogre any less Uber? No, it does not. Its Water Spout still sweeps the vast majority of pokemon out there.

This works both ways. Having no counters does not necessarily make a pokemon bannable, though it does go a long way in supporting the idea. In fact, I would go as far as saying Gallade is less obviously BL than Staraptor, even though there is really nothing that can switch into Gallade and win every time due to it's amazing movepool. Staraptor, overall, forced the advantage in a much more dangerous way than Gallade, and ravaged though any team type in an incredibly easy fashion.


Really, that's what this is about, too. There is a reason that the characteristics don't state absolutes, and a reason why the support clause exists. If something was only Uber if it literally swept or walled everything, we wouldn't ban any pokemon at all. However, our interest is in creating a healthy metagame - not just for OU, but for UU as well. BL is not going to be the pokemon we dislike. It's going to be the pokemon that, if removed, make UU a healthier tier. I think it's incredibly difficult to argue that the removal of either Raikou or Staraptor has done anything but vastly improve things. This is where problems involving Crobat come into play, but I'll leave that for another post.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

This is the kind of thinking that would create a metagame as centralized as Ubers within a few months.

A blatant overexaggeration in a feeble attempt to make your opinion appear more credible. Cut this out right now.

I mean, have you noticed how much more diverse things are now?

That doesn't mean that all of the suspects are to blame. I don't even know what point you're trying to make here.

You don't have to run specialized counters for pokemon like Raikou and Staraptor, so instead of seeing Camerupt, Luxray, and friends being mostly sitting ducks (no offense to P2 here), you have other strong pokemon stepping up to compete. Maybe I'm not being clear enough here. The problem here is that:

These pokemon force you to run overspecialized counters which are easily exploited.

You do realize that that's just your opinion right? Stop trying to pass off opinion as fact, that infuriates me more than anything else.

And for the record I disagree. I mean ok I agree to some extent about Staraptor, but not Raikou. The most common counter for that guy was Registeel, who is as popular and standard as ever. Even the standard moveset and EV spread has barely changed at all.

The main idea here is Staraptor's U-turn. Assuming Staraptor is going to use U-turn is just too risky the vast majority of the time. So, your switch-in is often going to be U-turned through and forced out again, likely taking residual damage from field effects, which are very popular in UU right now. Staraptor's threat is so large, that even if you have a decent switch into it, you're probably going to be foiled by U-turn.

First of all, arguing from prediction is an absolute no-no regardless of the circumstances, but even ignoring that, your U-turn argument is one of the worst I've heard in a long while.

For starters, you know very well that the residual damage factor is more applicable to Staraptor than any of its counters or checks. Just coming in, U-turning out and coming back in again leaves Staraptor at 50% health with Stealth Rock in play, whilst achieving little more than a possible scout. U-turn is just as much of a risk to Staraptor as it is to the opponent. In fact, before the suspect removal, my main Staraptor check was Ampharos, and you try telling me that your U-turn argument holds the same merit in that particular case.

This is coming from someone who believes that Staraptor is BL, so don't try to suggest that my arguments are biased in the other direction. I agree with your verdict, but not at all with your reasoning.

A word about Luxray while I'm at it: I'm not really sure how Luxray does well against most of the pokemon you mention. Kabutops still rips it up (vs max/max+):

+1 LO Waterfall in rain: 88.19% - 103.85%
+1 LO Stone Edge: 73.63% - 86.81%

Hell, Lux needs to reinvest 100 or so EVs into speed to beat Adamant CB Azumarill, and only does 70-80% back to it with Tbolt anyway. It's 3HKOed even with the most defensive spread possible, so it really needs to outspeed. Feraligatr and Honchkrow, Luxray is alright against, but Scyther and Crobat are U-turning anyway. Even these pokemon are dangerous due to Luxray not having any recovery, though.

Luxray's problem remains - what is it doing even if it forces a switch? Toxic? Roar? An extremely weak attack? This is another reason why I say these pokemon are easy to exploit. They don't actually do much of anything to allow you to take the advantage, and they lack the reliable recovery necessary to continue switching in. Furthermore, there is a reason why you don't see many of the pokemon in question now that we are testing without the suspects. Those pokemon just aren't quality UU material, and are pretty bad when they aren't being forced into action by a single pokemon's existence.

Way to strawman there with theorymon. Apparently Azumarill is always max attack/speed Choice Bander whilst Kabutops is always supported by rain. EUM never said Luxray covered every possible set in every situation, just those Pokemon in general.

Luxray is NOT a sitting duck. 120 / 95 offenses for a start, with some decent attacking options, and what's wrong with Toxic / Light Screen / Roar etc? Those are useful support options in the right circumstances.

As for Camerupt (just for argument's sake), let's take a look at a typical set it might run:

~ Fire move
~ Earthquake
~ Stealth Rock
~ Toxic / Explosion

Now how is that useless and easily exploited? Sets up SR, spreads status and fires off powerful attacks with decent coverage. Name one common Pokemon that switches in on that and exploits the situation without risk.

EDIT: also, you're really overstating the effect that the suspect removal had on these Pokemon. They were never that common to begin with, and the effect of a Pokemon's removal or inclusion on overall usages is perfectly logical. The same would apply for obviously fair game Pokemon too.

I think it's incredibly difficult to argue that the removal of either Raikou or Staraptor has done anything but vastly improve things.

The key word here is 'think'. It is YOUR opinion, you can't just assume everyone will agree with you because that's just arrogant. I won't repeat myself further to explain why I both disagree and believe that this kind of reasoning is unacceptable by itself.

 

[Gorgoroth]

I loved using Raikou. It helped me get near the top of UU and is a significant upgrade over Manectric, but I'm going to be perfectly honest and say this thing is BL as hell. When it got to the point where I'm killing it's counters Registeel, Chansey, and Shaymin with pure power then I knew it was BL. Speed is also a big factor I might add and unlike pokes that pack a similar punch say Houndoom it doesn't die in one hit, it's quite bulky.

 

[Naxte]

This is the kind of thinking that would create a metagame as centralized as Ubers within a few months. I mean, have you noticed how much more diverse things are now?

I'd also like to point out that this is really irrelevant (and also note that I'm referring to the use of this argument in general, and not just applied to Staraptor, which I do believe is BL currently). One of the characteristics for BL is not "overcentralizing/reversing the diversity of the metagame by a significant degree." What we are concerned with is simply whether or not a Pokemon is too powerful, whether that be in offensive, defensive, or supporting ability. Yes, a Pokemon may centralize the metagame more, and that may not be appreciable. But, if the Pokemon's not actually broken, and can be prepared for and dealt with easily enough, then it simply doesn't deserve to be BL; yeah, it sucks that everyone will flock to it and the metagame diversity will go down as a result, but we'll primarily concerned with whether or not a suspect meets the three characteristics, and not so much the diversity. Such an effect of a suspect might be undesirable, but we have to put that aside, not let it affect our judgment, and deal with what happens, even if we don't exactly like the results, as we aren't ultimately concerned with diversity, but rather if a suspect meets one (or more) of the three characteristics, and is thus BL or not as a result.

 

[Heysup]

QibingZero, even though I am on your side, I have to point out the exaggeration about calling these Pokemon useless.

If you remember our one of our two battles (not the one that you lost) I was using my old UU team for fun (I miss it :/.). My old UU team didnt even carry Stealth Rock and you managed to Crit Altaria and win, which was fine because it was a fun match, but the point is, these Pokemon are not COMPLETELY useless as you say they are.

Pokemon in the hands of excellent players such as EUM and Lemmiwinks are really used to their full Potential, even if it reaches lower than a better "standard", they work their team around using the Pokemon, and they can play it well.

While i say that, I still am more on the side of Qibing, because I dont beleive I would lose to these Pokemon again that are being used now, Good Gimmicks almost always work once, twice if your lucky but thats it.

 

[ToF]

Some of these arguments are really really useless. First of all, I'm going to addressing this ridiculous counter argument to validate the suspects. Nice, you found a counter to a suspect, congratulations. So you expect me to use one Pokemon to counter Staraptor, amazing again. Great support options, another plus. Note the sarcasm. Pokemon isn't as much about countering as what it does to the metagame. If you haven't realized as of yet, we do have some guidelines to vote on suspects (offensive, defensive, and support). As with the Latios test, there is a surefire counter (Blissey), and it still got voted as uber. Why can't you guys apply this logic here? Ok, Luxray counters Staraptor, great, but what stops Staraptor otherwise? It basically destroys the metagame, which is the point of this suspect test, not the stupid argument of finding situational counters that aren't even important in the metagame anyway.

Oh, and addressing the gimmick argument. You know, they are called gimmicks for a reason? Work once, maybe twice, and then thats it. Go find your special UU Pokemon that can fill the niches of the more used UU's, and tell me how they fare compared to the overused UU's. Pokemon like Roserade and Clefable are the upper UU for a reason (I'll let you figure this one out on your own).

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Pokemon in the hands of excellent players such as EUM and Lemmiwinks are really used to their full Potential, even if it reaches lower than a better "standard", they work their team around using the Pokemon, and they can play it well.

While i say that, I still am more on the side of Qibing, because I dont beleive I would lose to these Pokemon again that are being used now, Good Gimmicks almost always work once, twice if your lucky but thats it.

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by 'even if it reaches lower than a better standard', but I'll say this: every non-standard Pokemon that I have ever used, on a team that I have employed and had success with consistently, was used because it served a real competitive purpose. They are Pokemon I choose specifically for their unique qualities that make them able to fill a niche on the team that no other Pokemon can do better, for whatever reason. Would you call those Pokemon gimmicks just because they are not used as much as the standards? I don't see why you would.

Don't get me wrong, the real standards are better Pokemon overall, that there can be no doubt. But that does not mean that they are the superior choices over lesser used Pokemon in all teams and situations. I hope this makes sense as I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

Oh, and addressing the gimmick argument. You know, they are called gimmicks for a reason? Work once, maybe twice, and then thats it. Go find your special UU Pokemon that can fill the niches of the more used UU's, and tell me how they fare compared to the overused UU's. Pokemon like Roserade and Clefable are the upper UU for a reason (I'll let you figure this one out on your own).

Again, the Pokemon that I use on my serious competitive teams are NOT gimmicks according to this definition. They are able to fulfill their role consistently, and better than any of the standards for the given team's purpose and strategy. Why would I use Pokemon that cease to be effective after a couple of battles on a consistent basis? Obviously I wouldn't use Pokemon like Luvdisc and Kricketune that are clearly inferior to others for one reason or another, that would be stupid.

I get the feeling that my arguments are falling on deaf ears in this thread, so if people still don't understand what I'm getting at by now I'll just give up and move on to more productive discussion.

 

[kd24]

I agree with gerbil here, I have found Pokemon such as Shuckle, Gastrodon, Luxray, Camerupt, ect. to be a lot more effective and consistent than you guys are giving credit for.


I would like to mention, if a metagame is dominated by something like Raikou and it has counters, then aren't those counters filling a successful purpose? And they have purposes too.


Shuckle - General Encorer / Knock Off / Stalls stuff out
Camerupt - Rock Polish set / Good SR + Lava Plume tank / Explosion
Luxray - Sets up Light Screen / Intimidate makes it a good switch-in / stops Bulky Waters and Staraptor
Gastrodon - Can Recover and counter Fire-types without HP Grass, Toxic makes a nice status move, and also go with the CursePert route.

Throw in other general counters such as Encore Clefable, Chansey, Regice, Registeel, Steelix, ect. and Raikou isn't that bad to deal with.


People should be adapting with what UU provides to them, not complaining and refusing to think outside the box and use lower tier Pokemon.


Right now, I think Raikou is definitely UU, Staraptor is iffy but probably BL (It does have a significant lower amount of counters), and Gallade is BL because it literally has almost no safe switch-in, meaning you will most likely have to lose more than one a Pokemon a game before finally taking it down.

Crobat, Froslass, and Abomasnow don't really have much to do with what I am saying here so I will leave them alone.

 

[Heysup]

Right now, I think Raikou is definitely UU, Staraptor is iffy but probably BL (It does have a significant lower amount of counters),

That is not a valid reason, as we have been over many many times.

 

[QibingZero]

A blatant overexaggeration in a feeble attempt to make your opinion appear more credible. Cut this out right now.

What? I'm sorry, but I'm not exaggerating at all. With the mindset that 'if a pokemon has even one counter, it's fine' (which is what EUM was arguing), there is absolutely no purpose in separating Ubers from the standard tier in the first place.

You do realize that that's just your opinion right? Stop trying to pass off opinion as fact, that infuriates me more than anything else.

I don't see the point of mentioning this. If you disagree with what I'm saying, feel free to actually argue your point.

First of all, arguing from prediction is an absolute no-no regardless of the circumstances, but even ignoring that, your U-turn argument is one of the worst I've heard in a long while.

For starters, you know very well that the residual damage factor is more applicable to Staraptor than any of its counters or checks. Just coming in, U-turning out and coming back in again leaves Staraptor at 50% health with Stealth Rock in play, whilst achieving little more than a possible scout. U-turn is just as much of a risk to Staraptor as it is to the opponent. In fact, before the suspect removal, my main Staraptor check was Ampharos, and you try telling me that your U-turn argument holds the same merit in that particular case.

This is coming from someone who believes that Staraptor is BL, so don't try to suggest that my arguments are biased in the other direction. I agree with your verdict, but not at all with your reasoning.

Considering that Spikes are much more viable in UU, and were especially when Staraptor was available for play, that's not always true. Furthermore U-turn is not anything close to a risk for raptor when it knows that you have a pokemon or two that it can't immediately get past. It U-turns to a counter, and comes back in and wrecks things later. And, sorry, but I don't really think Ampharos switching in on it is anywhere near common (or reasonable) enough to warrant argument. It's a clear case of theorymon... and you're trying to get me on 'arguing from prediction'. Sigh. Cue the outcry over how Ampharos is actually a very good pokemon in UU, and how I'm closed minded toward 'creative' sets.

Way to strawman there with theorymon. Apparently Azumarill is always max attack/speed Choice Bander whilst Kabutops is always supported by rain. EUM never said Luxray covered every possible set in every situation, just those Pokemon in general.

You've got to be kidding me. I know you've argued stuff like this here before, so I don't understand why you're resorting to attacks like that. I assume the most common situations, and base my judgment off of that. Azu commonly carries a CB, and Kabutops is almost always supported by rain (though I even included a SE calc there assuming someone might argue such a thing).

Luxray is NOT a sitting duck. 120 / 95 offenses for a start, with some decent attacking options, and what's wrong with Toxic / Light Screen / Roar etc? Those are useful support options in the right circumstances.

As for Camerupt (just for argument's sake), let's take a look at a typical set it might run:

~ Fire move
~ Earthquake
~ Stealth Rock
~ Toxic / Explosion

Now how is that useless and easily exploited? Sets up SR, spreads status and fires off powerful attacks with decent coverage. Name one common Pokemon that switches in on that and exploits the situation without risk.

EDIT: also, you're really overstating the effect that the suspect removal had on these Pokemon. They were never that common to begin with, and the effect of a Pokemon's removal or inclusion on overall usages is perfectly logical. The same would apply for obviously fair game Pokemon too.

There's a reason Luxray doesn't see much use as an attacker - its offensive movepool sucks. Note how it uses Thunderbolt over Spark, even considering it's much larger attack stat. It's not scaring anyone. The issue with Toxic and Light Screen is that Luxray doesn't draw out the type of pokemon which are affected. Instead, you have pokemon like Steelix switching in and getting a free turn. I thought this much was obvious.

As for Camerupt, it honestly doesn't switch in on all that much, and really needs to Toxic on the switch to do anything to the bulky water coming in. Seriously, what threats does Camerupt even shut down, anyway? Raikou without a super effective HP? That was exactly my point in the first place - it's not a solid pokemon, and was only used to fit a very specific niche. Most of the time it comes in, fails to take 1 or 2 attacks, and dies. Even if it manages to get in and scare something off, it hardly does more than set up SR.

The key word here is 'think'. It is YOUR opinion, you can't just assume everyone will agree with you because that's just arrogant. I won't repeat myself further to explain why I both disagree and believe that this kind of reasoning is unacceptable by itself.

You're sure reading a lot into nothing here. Maybe if you disagree you can actually provide some sort of substantial argument against my claims, instead of supposedly taking offense to my tone all over the place (though it feels like that should be the other way around..). This thread has been getting a little too personal in the last page or so, and I don't really see any reason for it. Can we stick to the arguments themselves, please?

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Yeah, I think that people should be a bit more open to the idea of retesting. There's no reason why we can't do it, and if we, as a community, can't get to a reasonable conclusion about this, I reckon it'd be worth another testing session where we can place more focus on Raikou.

And, it seems that Chansey is getting more mentions in this thread than some of the suspects! lol.

 

[kd24]

worded that very incorrectly lol, meant Staraptor can virtually threaten everything like Gallade can and will usually end with you losing 2 pokemon a game just trying to stop it. I meant there are a few viable counters like Rotom and Luxray for it though.

 

[Relictivity]

Chansey learns Counter btw, just in case you didn't know (unless it is being Pursuited by Spiritomb that you're worried about the most). After Seismic Toss and recovery move, there are two slots left to be filled by a wide varety of support options. Choose the two that suit you and your team the best.

Oh, and sorry for mentioning Chansey.

Sorry, I think I didn't write out what I meant very well; LOL on my part. Actually, I din't think of Counter (though I was thinking of Tomby thanks to Pain Split and STAB). I'll do some calcs. What I meant was that I would view running Chansey as a risk on my team, thanks to Pursuit. But others have been successful running it. You can still mention Chansey, lol, it was just I was commenting on how I would never put it on my team in a million years, just as in OU, I would rather use Snorlax over Blissey. Sorry bout that :/

@Naxtae Actually we are looking for a less centralized enviroment to an extent. Therefore it is "easier" for a pokemon to be BL here than it is "Uber" in OU. There is a wide variety of strategy, and I (and I'm sure many others) want to leave it this way, full of variety, where you are free to teambuild according to the strategy you would like and be modestly successful.

Mmm... I have to say Quagsire is not as bad as it seems... what makes it not such a good idea to run is that you have Gastrodon there with Recovery. They would just switch out Raikou (not that much of a sacrifice if you run wish) and send in something else. But I dunno, just saying what I thought.

@Lemiwinks (another post) Um... I think they're trying to get at that the pokemon you are running don't work with your team. I don't believe you should have to work your whole team around countering Raikou, so how successful would your team be at bringing down a Raikou with a T-Spike Absorber, Levitator, and Wisher?

@KD24 Admittidly, those pokemon do have use. However they all have their limits.

Shuckle - Taunts is the worse thing that ever happened to it.
Camerupt - Has a difficult time switching into other threats, and even if it does, it's low speed means they may kill it on the second attack, unless you are running TR
Luxray - I think QZ covered this one very, very well.
Gastrodon - A good pokemon, just that Toxic won't hit through subs, and Curse's boosts won't matter to subs either. However, this is a very usable pokemon. Just make sure you don't give T-Spike Rade a free switch in after you kill something with it.

"People should be adapting with what UU provides to them, not complaining and refusing to think outside the box and use lower tier Pokemon."

I heavily disagree with this statement. OK, people, adapt to Abomanasnow and Walerin, bring him back. Adapt to Sweeper X who has dropped from OU despite being powerful due to another threat. Adapt is NOT a good enough excuse, and it is THE REASON OU IS SO OFFENSIVE! I agree, people need to think more out of the box, but not to the point where the counter becomes solely for Raikou, whom you are not even sure your opponent might have. There are ways to use these pokemon, but would you alter your team right now in a Raikou-less metagame and play and keep winning. Because that is what my problem is. You're requiring every team to run a specified counter for a pokemon the other team is not guaranteed to have.

Also, we cannot expect everyone to always use the suspects on every one of their teams, so how much a suspect counters another is irrelevant.

Sorry if that sounded harsh :/.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

What? I'm sorry, but I'm not exaggerating at all. With the mindset that 'if a pokemon has even one counter, it's fine' (which is what EUM was arguing), there is absolutely no purpose in separating Ubers from the standard tier in the first place.

Sorry, it just seemed to me that you were referring to UU when you mentioned that. UU will never be as centralized as Ubers no matter how many suspects, if any at all get banned (we've tested the base UU metagame already). What you said would therefore be a blatantly false statement, which is what I took issue with, but I apologize if I misinterpreted.

I don't see the point of mentioning this. If you disagree with what I'm saying, feel free to actually argue your point.

I've already given many arguments regarding certain suspects over the last couple of pages, but for some reason its mostly the parts where I'm directly confronting someone that generate responses, so forgive me if I occasionally resort to such measures to get an active discussion going. Anyway, what I was getting at here was the fact that gave your opinion but presented it as if it was a factual statement, without justification. Whether I agreed with your statement or not is irrelevant, it was the bad practice in argumentation displayed that I took issue with. I do happen to disagree with that particular point you made, but I would have responded in exactly the same way even if I did agree.

I'm currently working on my draft arguments for each suspect and my verdict for each, which I should have finished in the next few days. I like to consider my points carefully, so be patient and I'll eventually provide some substantial and relevant discussion that we can argue together. It would be great if you could do the same.

Considering that Spikes are much more viable in UU, and were especially when Staraptor was available for play, that's not always true. Furthermore U-turn is not anything close to a risk for raptor when it knows that you have a pokemon or two that it can't immediately get past. It U-turns to a counter, and comes back in and wrecks things later. And, sorry, but I don't really think Ampharos switching in on it is anywhere near common (or reasonable) enough to warrant argument. It's a clear case of theorymon... and you're trying to get me on 'arguing from prediction'. Sigh. Cue the outcry over how Ampharos is actually a very good pokemon in UU, and how I'm closed minded toward 'creative' sets.

I won't. All I'll say is that the Ampharos part isn't theorymon. I used it a lot to great success pre-Suspect removal when Crobat and Staraptor were everywhere, and also pulled its weight outside those situations.

You've got to be kidding me. I know you've argued stuff like this here before, so I don't understand why you're resorting to attacks like that. I assume the most common situations, and base my judgment off of that. Azu commonly carries a CB, and Kabutops is almost always supported by rain (though I even included a SE calc there assuming someone might argue such a thing).

Okay calm down. It wasn't an attack, it was just a retort to the way I thought you were being unfair to EUM's post by taking his points slightly out of context. Its no big deal.

There's a reason Luxray doesn't see much use as an attacker - its offensive movepool sucks. Note how it uses Thunderbolt over Spark, even considering it's much larger attack stat. It's not scaring anyone. The issue with Toxic and Light Screen is that Luxray doesn't draw out the type of pokemon which are affected. Instead, you have pokemon like Steelix switching in and getting a free turn. I thought this much was obvious.

As for Camerupt, it honestly doesn't switch in on all that much, and really needs to Toxic on the switch to do anything to the bulky water coming in. Seriously, what threats does Camerupt even shut down, anyway? Raikou without a super effective HP? That was exactly my point in the first place - it's not a solid pokemon, and was only used to fit a very specific niche. Most of the time it comes in, fails to take 1 or 2 attacks, and dies. Even if it manages to get in and scare something off, it hardly does more than set up SR.

Nobody said that Camerupt had to be a dedicated wall just because it is capable of countering Raikou. If I were to use Camerupt, it would be to exploit common tanks / walls like Chansey / Clefable / Registeel / the odd Rotom etc with its typing and go from there in doing its job. Countering raikou would be the bonus. Nothing wrong with that at all if it suits the team.

And Luxray could use HP Fire / Ground to hit Steelix and other potential switch-ins. I've done that before in the old UU. Or is that too ridiculous now?

You're sure reading a lot into nothing here. Maybe if you disagree you can actually provide some sort of substantial argument against my claims, instead of supposedly taking offense to my tone all over the place (though it feels like that should be the other way around..). This thread has been getting a little too personal in the last page or so, and I don't really see any reason for it. Can we stick to the arguments themselves, please?

See above. Most of your 'arguments' for X Pokemon's brokenness were related to why you thought certain Pokemon were 'overspecialized counters' to said Pokemon that were somehow otherwise useless, and you know where I stand with regards to such arguments. However, I know that you're very much capable of coming up with genuine convincing arguments for all the suspects, and I trust that you'll do so sometime in the near future. Agreed?

EDIT:

@Lemiwinks (another post) Um... I think they're trying to get at that the pokemon you are running don't work with your team. I don't believe you should have to work your whole team around countering Raikou, so how successful would your team be at bringing down a Raikou with a T-Spike Absorber, Levitator, and Wisher?

I don't really know how to respond to that, as all you did was mention a few generic strategy elements that could easily apply to both sides. I will say though that I've never used Toxic Spikes in this UU metagame, as I think their effectiveness is overrated. I will also say that it's very much possible to play around Raikou whilst setting up your own strategy. If you don't believe me then that's your problem.

 

[Heysup]

And, it seems that Chansey is getting more mentions in this thread than some of the suspects! lol.

This is why i think there is a flaw with the "Defensive" Uber and BL definition.

How many Pokemon have been banned due to this characteristic? Zero?

I think that speaks for itself, how it is near impossible to see a "threat" in a Walling Pokemon, as no Pokemon can stall a good portion of the metagame, but im not sure what the defensive definition should be changed to either...

 

[Relictivity]

Very true, the definition has never applied to any pokemon. However, we do have one that it may apply to in the future - Shaymin.

I think if Spiritomb had speed, it would meant the definition, but it doesn't so it stays where it is.

If Cradily had less weaknesses to take advantage of, it would reach the requirement under a Sandstorm, but it does have those weaknesses.

I think the problem is that none of the walls right now in UU are perfect, and are ruined by perfectly viable strategies from many pokemon. That's the bad thing about not being threatening - things are able to force you out.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

I want to state that I never intended to say if a Pokemon has a counter, it's not BL.

I had been arguing against Staraptor's banning because Luxray is a surefire counter against it.

I butchered this statement. I hope this revision will clarify my view: One point that prevents me from seeing Staraptor as BL is that Luxray is a surefire counter.

While there may be other aspects of Staraptor that will get it banned, I want to point out that one cannot overlook a counter just because it seems ridiculous or extremely specific counter on first sight.

I stated this in my original post, but I guess my opening statement was viewed as a contradiction to it. My point was directed at the argument "Quagsire is an overspecialized counter." My statements at Luxray were defending its usefulness in the tier, as shown by my statement below.

Some people have sort of dismissed this argument because "it's Luxray."

I admit that I am focusing on smaller points rather than the bigger picture, but I want to post my opinions on smaller issues rather than my full fleshed argument on my opinions of tiering placement. The reason is that I don't want to commit to a side without fully reviewing all the facts. I do not have a set-in-stone opinion on Staraptor or Raikou, and I'm hoping that this discussion will help me form one.

CroKou? I used to use it to much success in the past, despite the fact that its completely walled by Ground types and other Electric resists with the ability to hit back hard. It certainly worked well against teams overreliant on Chansey to beat me though, as well as alongside a Ground lure. Just saying.

Yeah, I forgot about that. The only Rest /Sleep Talk set I ever remembered encountering had Roar, which is why I overlooked that. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so adamant in saying that.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I argue that a counter existing for a pokemon does not mean it isn't broken. So we have one pokemon to choose from to deal with the most serious threats in the metagame - great. 'Chansey stops Raikou, so Raikou is not BL' is not a valid definition, even if it were true (Rest versions beat Chansey, Roar versions beat Regice, etc).

I never said that just because Chansey stops Raikou, it is not BL. I am aware that the presence of a counter does not necessarily factor in tier placement. Again, if it seems like I meant that, I apologize.

The main idea here is Staraptor's U-turn. Assuming Staraptor is going to use U-turn is just too risky the vast majority of the time. So, your switch-in is often going to be U-turned through and forced out again, likely taking residual damage from field effects, which are very popular in UU right now. Staraptor's threat is so large, that even if you have a decent switch into it, you're probably going to be foiled by U-turn.

What happened to Stealth Rock? Stealth Rock is more common than Spikes or Toxic Spikes, not to mention you can't really assume that a person would let someone set up more than one layer, or even that for the matter.

A word about Luxray while I'm at it: I'm not really sure how Luxray does well against most of the pokemon you mention. Kabutops still rips it up (vs max/max+):

+1 LO Waterfall in rain: 88.19% - 103.85%
+1 LO Stone Edge: 73.63% - 86.81%

Point taken; I do recall using Luxray with effect against it. Perhaps it was mere luck with the damage roll, perhaps it wasn't using Life Orb, but I will agree that Luxray isn't that effective against it.

Hell, Lux needs to reinvest 100 or so EVs into speed to beat Adamant CB Azumarill, and only does 70-80% back to it with Tbolt anyway. It's 3HKOed even with the most defensive spread possible, so it really needs to outspeed. Feraligatr and Honchkrow, Luxray is alright against, but Scyther and Crobat are U-turning anyway. Even these pokemon are dangerous due to Luxray not having any recovery, though.

I will heavily disagree with you on this point, though.

Jan: Azumarill | Speed EV | None | 57.0
Azumarill | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 26.2
Feb: Azumarill | Speed EV | None | 51.6
Azumarill | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 33.0

As you can see, Luxray, with 176 Speed, outruns 83.2% of the January Azumarills and 84.6% of the February ones. I know some people do run max speed, but only a small number do.

Scyther is primarily a Swords Dance sweeper. The ones that keep switching in and out are gored by Stealth Rock.

Crobat will end up U-Turning often, but the most common sets can't do anything else.

Luxray's problem remains - what is it doing even if it forces a switch? Toxic? Roar? An extremely weak attack? This is another reason why I say these pokemon are easy to exploit. They don't actually do much of anything to allow you to take the advantage, and they lack the reliable recovery necessary to continue switching in. Furthermore, there is a reason why you don't see many of the pokemon in question now that we are testing without the suspects. Those pokemon just aren't quality UU material, and are pretty bad when they aren't being forced into action by a single pokemon's existence.

For the record, I used Spikes in conjunction with Roar.

The value of Luxray, to me, lies in not how much Pokemon it can counter, but how well it counters them. I am mainly referring to Honchkrow and Staraptor.

Considering that Spikes are much more viable in UU, and were especially when Staraptor was available for play, that's not always true. Furthermore U-turn is not anything close to a risk for raptor when it knows that you have a pokemon or two that it can't immediately get past. It U-turns to a counter, and comes back in and wrecks things later. And, sorry, but I don't really think Ampharos switching in on it is anywhere near common (or reasonable) enough to warrant argument. It's a clear case of theorymon... and you're trying to get me on 'arguing from prediction'. Sigh. Cue the outcry over how Ampharos is actually a very good pokemon in UU, and how I'm closed minded toward 'creative' sets.

Stealth Rock - 11.35%
Spikes - 3.48%

From here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51816

I'm not saying Spikes aren't viable, but Stealth Rock is easier to set up! Not to mention Froslass, the most common Spiker, is up for Suspect anyway. How can you ignore this?

Also, while Staraptor had a number of moves and Pokemon it can successfully switch into, one cannot always assume that it will get in unscathed.

How many Pokemon have been banned due to this characteristic? Zero?

They were already banned to begin with. ie; Deoxys-D.

What? I'm sorry, but I'm not exaggerating at all. With the mindset that 'if a pokemon has even one counter, it's fine' (which is what EUM was arguing),

Again, I really just want to emphasize that I do not believe this at all. I am not blaming you for thinking that; it was my fault for being unclear.

 

[Relictivity]

What happened to Stealth Rock? Stealth Rock is more common than Spikes or Toxic Spikes, not to mention you can't really assume that a person would let someone set up more than one layer, or even that for the matter.

Roost negates this. So does wish (from another pokemon). Staraptor only has to run 3 slots to be effective at sweeping. The fourth slot is open to whatever you want.

Crobat will end up U-Turning often, but the most common sets can't do anything else.

Crobat is MUCH, MUCH, more useful than that. How much does a Cross Poison do. Renember, it also has a high crit rate and a chace for poison. Use Max Attack. Also, Roost negetgates the Electric weakness meaning Crobat CAN and WILL stall Luxray out. If it stalled my Porygon-2, it is going to have no problem stalling Luxray.

 

[Stagnant]

Mhmm... Counters.

Crobat- Regi-, Steelix, Ect... Managable.

Abomasnow- Registeel... sort of. He can run so many sets there is nothing that can qualify as a counter.

Froslass- Irrelevant. However, Hitmontop is #1 counter. Spikes are going up now nothing will change about -Lass except, hopefully, the lack of SnowCloak abuse.

Staraptor- Honestly, None. Between Choiced U-Turn and SubRoost set nothing is surefire.

Raikou- Regice, Chansey, ... Most other -Mons rely on Hidden Power. Which hardly makes them "checks" rather than a counter. I'm all for experimenting with new sets but once Raikou hits the scene I guarentee every team is going to use and abuse him.

Gallade- None. 100%. BL.

With that said... I feel that Crobat and Froslass need to be re-examined. With them two on the scene that would certianly check Shaymin and not completely centralized the metagame.

On another note. I've been following that whole discussion up above and it is a rather pointless one if you ask me. You guys know what the Suspect pokemon are capable of and you should realize what measures are reasonable to deal with those suspects. Yes, "think out side the box", but it comes to a point where it just isn't practical and soon afterwords your team begins to resimble the team you can't beat or turns into a complete "gimmick" team, or the one trick wonder team. Anyways, I enjoy the variety and competitiveness of the UU metagame despite how defensively oriented it is.

PLEASE stop with your quote wars. You guys are just going in circles.