Im in the 1780-1890 zone and I'm stuck at 53-54 deviation. I even forced a couple losses to get to 55 to 53.5. I see the credential of getting a 45 deviation though, forcing you to experiment with different teams.
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np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects
- Thread starter Caelum
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Agreed, I'd say something like 55-60 suffices for a sort of "upper requirement". This requirement doesn't really mean much other than the deviation change, as I support every voter submitting a paragraph anyway.
I think the point of the low devation is to make you not use the same team and win all of the time. It also allows less bias people to vote, as people at the very top will want to keep it as it is, and the people lower want to change it. Im saying this basing only on Logic, not on peoples personallities, so I dont mean to offend anyone :P.
Well I finally got my deviation to 45, it did take all day to get from 51 to 45, but it really wasn't THAT hard. Since your deviation at one point starts going down even for losing, you just have to play alot.
i have experimented with different teams on different names and i still don't lose enough to get down to 45 deviation. i think 45 deviation is a bit unfair to us people who don't make teams that lose.
Then just press the "randomize team" button. That should help your problem :)
Fixed. It's really not difficult lol.
Even if you lose once in every ten matches, if you play 10 a day and you will get it easily within a couple days.
What i wouldnt mind though, is a rating increase as its way to easy to get the rating.
i don't lose once in ten matches though. i lose once in 20 or 30. but it's okay i came up with a solution to the problem. go on an alt with a shitty team while drunk and battle 4 at a time. i'm almost under 50 now!!
HeYsUp, ask Gouki. You have to lose to lower your deviation after a certain point. He couldn't get under 55 for the Latios test and he played an ass load. Last day he just started throwing matches to meet it.
It doesn't matter if the rating is "way to easy." I think that was the entire point, to expand the voter pool and allow experienced players in. You still have to write a paragraph, so the "bad" votes will be weeded out anyways.
It doesn't matter if the rating is "way to easy." I think that was the entire point, to expand the voter pool and allow experienced players in. You still have to write a paragraph, so the "bad" votes will be weeded out anyways.
About all the rating/deviation calls... I thought that it was going to be hard too, but I made it, and it's extremely comfortable right now.
The way the rating system on Shoddy works, it practically forces you to lose sometimes to lower your deviation.
And an upper limit would be extremely bad.
The way the rating system on Shoddy works, it practically forces you to lose sometimes to lower your deviation.
And an upper limit would be extremely bad.
See I do that all the time! People ladder while not drunk? Wow that would be lame...
Point taken. I forgot about the Paragraphs completely.
Speaking of which, how are the Paragraphs picked? Something like the nominations?
Caelum was supposed to update the OP of this thread with the parameters for the paragraph, but he hasn't done it yet...
The point of the para is to convince Caelum/RB Golbat/whoever reads it that you have an understanding of the suspects, and that you are voting for the right reasons. So the para's are accepted if you demonstrate good reasoning.(I think)
The point of the para is to convince Caelum/RB Golbat/whoever reads it that you have an understanding of the suspects, and that you are voting for the right reasons. So the para's are accepted if you demonstrate good reasoning.(I think)
You're confusing the OU process with the UU process. The UU process does not have any predetermined "baseline" metagame, we just ban things until it's stable.
There's no point in going "let's ban until we like the metagame, then unban one at a time" when we could just ban a few at a time.
I'm not confusing any process. I said I recognized we might ban a few at a time for time's sake.
The point of this suspect process, whether testing 1 Pokemon or 12324234 Pokemon, is to first determine ALL suspects.
If we test 2 suspects simultaneously right now, and the metagame is not to our liking, we cannot determine whether these two suspects were the cause, because we are not sure if they are the only two suspects.
The point of determining all suspects is to ensure that we know what the root of the problem is.
Just in case you think I'm confusing this with the OU process still, let me clarify what I meant by "testing in isolation" and "I know we might have to test numerous at a time," because that seems contradictory.
By isolation I don't mean only testing 1 at a time, just isolating what we deem as suspects. Meaning we can test however many we want at a time, but in order to ensure that any problems with the metagame are due to these two (or three or four) suspects, we might first ensure that no other suspects exist within that metagame.
If we are not sure, we cannot make that declaration.
The point of this suspect process, whether testing 1 Pokemon or 12324234 Pokemon, is to first determine ALL suspects.
If we test 2 suspects simultaneously right now, and the metagame is not to our liking, we cannot determine whether these two suspects were the cause, because we are not sure if they are the only two suspects.
The point of determining all suspects is to ensure that we know what the root of the problem is.
Just in case you think I'm confusing this with the OU process still, let me clarify what I meant by "testing in isolation" and "I know we might have to test numerous at a time," because that seems contradictory.
By isolation I don't mean only testing 1 at a time, just isolating what we deem as suspects. Meaning we can test however many we want at a time, but in order to ensure that any problems with the metagame are due to these two (or three or four) suspects, we might first ensure that no other suspects exist within that metagame.
If we are not sure, we cannot make that declaration.
No it isn't. Thats the point of the process used in OU. This one is entirely different. I don't think we're even using the term "suspects" in the same way. Here, "suspect" means it "could be banned", and we check if it is better to have them banned by banning them. This is in contrast with the OU process, in which the stable metagame is found, then we identify "suspects" by theorymon and test them by placing them in a suspect free metagame. Like it or not, the processes are different, and there's not one right way to do it.
The point is to find broken Pokémon, not to find a metagame we like. If we don't like the metagame, then we make a Pokemon a UU suspect to see if it is broken. If it is broken, we ban it. We do this until the metagame is stable.
We're not actively trying to create any sort of metagame other than a somewhat balanced one.
Why is that we need to do that? I don't think anyone is unable to determine that Staraptor is broken right now just because Shaymin's still around.
We can declare a Pokémon is broken because this system is more conservative than OU. If a Pokémon further breaks a broken metagame, isn't it broken?
I think Crobat is actually good for the metagame, while frosslass just made leads a guessing game whether they were going to DBond or not.
Yes, but the question is: Is Crobat's Taunt broken for the metagame? Think of the two fastest leads... being used commonly to set up rain dance. I think UU might be "drown" in the problem.
I dunno if I based that on proper reasoning, but hey, I tried.
I dunno if I based that on proper reasoning, but hey, I tried.
Well after some more laddering I noticed that:
There are many stall teams.And it has become even harder to beat them due to no Crobat Taunt,no Gallade and the other suspects.
Shaymin is way harder to defeat.As I have said,it's counters are gone and a well played SubSeed Min can beat people easily.Many people have suggested that it has to get moved to suspects.I'm one of them,of course.
There are many stall teams.And it has become even harder to beat them due to no Crobat Taunt,no Gallade and the other suspects.
Shaymin is way harder to defeat.As I have said,it's counters are gone and a well played SubSeed Min can beat people easily.Many people have suggested that it has to get moved to suspects.I'm one of them,of course.
Yah, but you can't bring back Crobat just to couter Shaymin, you have to bring back Crobat because it doesn't meet support characteristic.
About Stall teams... try fitting a subseeder on your team plus something to hit Shaymin.
About Stall teams... try fitting a subseeder on your team plus something to hit Shaymin.
As is, this is what I would have to say about the suspects:
Staraptor: Easily fills the Offensive Characteristic, due to extremely powerful attacks that bring down basically everything. No debate there.
Abomasnow: Fills the Support Characteristic, for reasons I've already stated more than once.
Raikou: Less of a problem than the other two, but in my opinion it still fulfills the Offensive Characteristic, because it's hard to counter outside of using itself, and it has the ability to KO almost the entire metagame after three or four CMs given the right moves.
Froslass: Personally, I'd love to see Froslass stay BL simply because it was annoying as all hell. However, it wasn't really game-breaking. Spikes aren't that big of a pain to deal with if the set-up pokemon is so easy to take down like Froslass was/is. It certainly can't defend or attack well enough to make it BL. If we're following the requirements alone, it would stay UU.
Gallade: I really don't feel qualified to speak about this one, as I've only encountered Gallade twice during my entire UU stint and it was easily KO'd both times before it managed to do anything. Rhydon has given me more trouble than this. I'd honestly say it fulfills the Offensive Characteristic based on the numbers I've seen, but that's all theorymon for me. I would personally have no problem keeping it UU.
Crobat: No doubt about this: Crobat is UU. Offensively, it's about as strong as a gust of wind (no pun intended), easily walled by anything not hit Super Effective if you don't have Nasty Plot. Defensively, it's about as strong as paper. So, the real debate comes down to support. The two categories are Taunt and Weather Support, since Hypnosis is rarely used.
Sure, Crobat can set up Rain Dance and Sunny Day extremely effectively, but so can lead Electrode (who is a bigger threat in Rain than Crobat, by the way). Registeel, Ludicolo, and the like can easily set up rain, while Rapidash, Porygon2, and Jumpluff are all good canidates for Sunny Day setup. There are plenty other weather supporters who can do the job as well as Crobat, so this is clearly not a BL qualification. Taunt, on the other hand, is harder to justify. While it's THE FASTEST Taunt + U-Turn, why is that a big deal? Between SR damage and the like, it's easily KO'd by Pokemon it taunts turning the tables and smacking it around a bit. It can try to be cute with Roost, but eventually it will be beaten handily. All in all, it's hard to justify it being BL except that it annoys you with Taunt.
Staraptor: Easily fills the Offensive Characteristic, due to extremely powerful attacks that bring down basically everything. No debate there.
Abomasnow: Fills the Support Characteristic, for reasons I've already stated more than once.
Raikou: Less of a problem than the other two, but in my opinion it still fulfills the Offensive Characteristic, because it's hard to counter outside of using itself, and it has the ability to KO almost the entire metagame after three or four CMs given the right moves.
Froslass: Personally, I'd love to see Froslass stay BL simply because it was annoying as all hell. However, it wasn't really game-breaking. Spikes aren't that big of a pain to deal with if the set-up pokemon is so easy to take down like Froslass was/is. It certainly can't defend or attack well enough to make it BL. If we're following the requirements alone, it would stay UU.
Gallade: I really don't feel qualified to speak about this one, as I've only encountered Gallade twice during my entire UU stint and it was easily KO'd both times before it managed to do anything. Rhydon has given me more trouble than this. I'd honestly say it fulfills the Offensive Characteristic based on the numbers I've seen, but that's all theorymon for me. I would personally have no problem keeping it UU.
Crobat: No doubt about this: Crobat is UU. Offensively, it's about as strong as a gust of wind (no pun intended), easily walled by anything not hit Super Effective if you don't have Nasty Plot. Defensively, it's about as strong as paper. So, the real debate comes down to support. The two categories are Taunt and Weather Support, since Hypnosis is rarely used.
Sure, Crobat can set up Rain Dance and Sunny Day extremely effectively, but so can lead Electrode (who is a bigger threat in Rain than Crobat, by the way). Registeel, Ludicolo, and the like can easily set up rain, while Rapidash, Porygon2, and Jumpluff are all good canidates for Sunny Day setup. There are plenty other weather supporters who can do the job as well as Crobat, so this is clearly not a BL qualification. Taunt, on the other hand, is harder to justify. While it's THE FASTEST Taunt + U-Turn, why is that a big deal? Between SR damage and the like, it's easily KO'd by Pokemon it taunts turning the tables and smacking it around a bit. It can try to be cute with Roost, but eventually it will be beaten handily. All in all, it's hard to justify it being BL except that it annoys you with Taunt.
Well IMO Crobat shouldn't have been considered for suspect status in the first place. Its support capabilities are so incredibly limited, and I agree with everyone who says that its influence on the metagame was positive overall. Froslass on the other hand... well lets say that the recent metagame changes have really solidified my position regarding her.
Any Grass/Poison type? Roserade and Venusaur are the big two obviously, and both can hit it hard with STAB Sludge Bombs.
I hope you don't mind me pointing some things out :/.
"Crobat is as strong as a gust of wind"
Not really, actually, you take quite a bit from Brave Bird if you do not resist it.
"It's about as strong as paper"
Again, no, it's defenses and good typing mean you "have to" hit it supereffectively, It's defenses are actually really good. If you renember, it can survive a Frosslass's Ice Beam with some HP investment. It is the same with a Porygon-2s Downloaded TB or Ice Beam - it survives them.
"So can Electrode(which is a bigger threat than Crobat by the way)"
Actually, Crobat is valued for the double grass resistance he brings, since the Electric weaknesses can be dealt with by Lanturn or Grounds. In addition, many Swift Swimers are weak to Ground giving Crobat free switch ins. Electrode just goes boom, and smart switching, ghosts, or protect mean your one pokemon down. And it is pretty easy to predict Electrode's boom too. On the other side of the spectrum, we have a useful double resistance to grass which means opposing Chlorophyll users won't stop your Sunny Day team. Also there is the useful Ground Resists for your Arcanine, Blaziken, or Magmortar.
"There are plenty other weather supporters who can do the job as well as Crobat"
Actually, a quick Taunt is what makes Crobat so reliable and good. The others hate getting Taunted. For this reason, the others do not make good leads. And that is where Crobat is most valued.
"Between SR damage and the like, it's easily KO'd by Pokemon it taunts"
As I said, you have to run a supereffective move. Also, you don't get Stealth Rock Damage initially, which means that your initial battle is going to be filled with 8 turns of weather before you can start damaging Crobat. And he won't be switching in on something that is a threat.
"It can try to be cute with Roost, but eventually it will be beaten handily"
I had my Download Porygon 2 and Slowbro die to Brave Bird/Roost stalling by Crobat. No, this statement definately does not fit. The only reliable type to hit it with is Psychic. Everything else is a guess, and nobody wants Crobat to have a free turn.
Sorry if that sounded harsh :/
@ Lemiwinks I'm fine with testing Crobat some more, but honestly, I think it is just too reliable at it's job. I dunno about you. I do agree though that Frosslass was not good for this metagame. Destiny Bond XD. About the Subseed reference, I was just trying to help him, and those two pokes were who I was trying to get at without completely talking about them in specific.
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