np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects

[haunter]

Shaymin pretty much stops everything in its tracks minus Roserade, Charizard and Moltres. I'd definately like to see it go.

Completely agreeing with this. Moltres would be a fine switch in if it wasn't for the 4x stealth rock weakness. Roserade can switch on predicted seed flares but it's usually slower and if shaymin gets a sp.def drop, it can be ko'ed by air slash or hp fire\ice. Registeel can be a decent counter to life orb variants, but having no recovery out of rest limits its number of switch in, not to mention that sub-seed variants still beat it 1vs1.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Well, like it's been said, there's many ways to stop SR from getting down. As of posting time, the only player who has ever been able to force me to switch in Moltres on SR is Eo Ut Mortus, which is saying something. In all other instances, I simply get Moltres in before the opponent can lay down SR, or I spin them away before I'm forced to send it out. Moltres is definetly an option for stopping Shaymin, as is Articuno. Seriously, just because it doesn't 4x resist Seed Flare doesn't mean its massive HP and SpDef can't handle multiple Seed Flares. Regice is also (and has always been, for people who've forgotten Skymin) an option for shutting down basically any special-oriented attacker.
I think a lot of people underestimate Pokemon simply because they think SR can take care of them with little trouble. A well-designed team that can account for Shaymin can easily handle it.

Now, those damn Pursuit Honchkrows on the other hand...

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Rain - As deadly as it was before the UU/BL merger if not deadlier with the ridiculous addition of that goddamn Ludicolo. Ludicolo is a pokemon I actually may consider nominating for suspect. Prior to the merger, Kabutops, Omastar and that weird fish thing whose name I forget dominated the Rain Dance market and a few people (including me) were calling for at least Kabutops to be moved to bl. Ludicolo in the current metagame blows all 3 of those out of the water (pun five!). Bitch is scary and I haven't come up with a reasonable way of dealing with it yet.

I feel Ludicolo is one of the least threatening Rain Dance sweepers. All the special-based Rain sweepers, including Ludicolo, are walled to hell and back by Chansey. Leech Seed would help with it, but Toxic will eventually be taking away more health than Ludicolo would be receiving. On the other hand, I agree that Kabutops and the weird fish (Qwilfish) are problematic, thanks to their ability to boost their stats combined with coverage that is resisted only by a few Pokemon (Quagsire comes to mind).

I agree with the sentiment that Crobat was not broken. I never valued its Support characteristics as much as its Defensive ones. Crobat had an excellent niche for checking Mismagius, Toxicroak, Blaziken, Houndoom, and the prominent threat of Shaymin.

 

[XenoIncognito]

I feel Ludicolo is one of the least threatening Rain Dance sweepers. All the special-based Rain sweepers, including Ludicolo, are walled to hell and back by Chansey. Leech Seed would help with it, but Toxic will eventually be taking away more health than Ludicolo would be receiving. On the other hand, I agree that Kabutops and the weird fish (Qwilfish) are problematic, thanks to their ability to boost their stats combined with coverage that is resisted only by a few Pokemon (Quagsire comes to mind).

I agree with the sentiment that Crobat was not broken. I never valued its Support characteristics as much as its Defensive ones. Crobat had an excellent niche for checking Mismagius, Toxicroak, Blaziken, Houndoom, and the prominent threat of Shaymin.

That won't always work. Some Ludicolo pack SD sets specifically to counter Chansey.

 

[Boingo]

Well, like it's been said, there's many ways to stop SR from getting down. As of posting time, the only player who has ever been able to force me to switch in Moltres on SR is Eo Ut Mortus, which is saying something. In all other instances, I simply get Moltres in before the opponent can lay down SR, or I spin them away before I'm forced to send it out. Moltres is definetly an option for stopping Shaymin, as is Articuno. Seriously, just because it doesn't 4x resist Seed Flare doesn't mean its massive HP and SpDef can't handle multiple Seed Flares.

I agree with this. Stop being scared of Stealth Rock weakness, bring a spinner (I use Sandslash myself) or fast taunters. Pokémon like Moltres and Articuno are definitely worth it. I use Articuno with max HP and lots of SpDef and that thing just doesn't die to anything that's not a Rock or Fire Attack. It's a great Roost+Toxic staller, and can also hit stuff like Claydol, Venusaur and Shaymin with a STAB Ice Beam.

 

[blue_light]

Articuno is basically a worse Roost + Toxic staller than Moltres. He can't do shit to steels since his STAB is resisted by steel and steels are immune to toxic. If you want a Roost + Toxic staller Moltres is the best pokemon for that set fire attack + toxic pretty much hits everything in UU.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

That won't always work. Some Ludicolo pack SD sets specifically to counter Chansey.

That's true, but they are definitely less common than special versions. I have encountered only one so far, and if it had been played just a tad better, it would have had more potential to deal damage.

 

[panamaxis]

fire attack + toxic pretty much hits everything in UU.

Tentacool (lol)? Anyway, I don't think crobat was that broken, i think it will be good in UU if it stays.

Subseed Shaymin with air slash and seed flare is an absolute pain to take down :(.

Also, I find stall is very dominating.

 

[Bakachild]

Tentacool (lol)? Anyway, I don't think crobat was that broken, i think it will be good in UU if it stays.

Subseed Shaymin with air slash and seed flare is an absolute pain to take down :(.

Also, I find stall is very dominating.

I don't know man .. It keeps plenty of sweepers in check. Namely Shaymin, fighting types, Roserade, Abomasnow, etc. The thing is the standard set Roost / Brave Bird / Taunt / U-Turn was designated for a lead but not really for suicide. It has surprisingly good bulk and pretty good typing. It's actually designated to be around for a long time and keep some major pokemon in UU checked. Not only that NastyBat is a scary threat if your not prepared. Crobat's pressence will help out alot of bulky waters, which are really annoying in UU, especially Sleep Talk Milotic which is almost impossible to take down without boosted attacks.

 

[panamaxis]

so if it keeps all those pokemon in check it will be a good addition to uu.

I don't see the point your trying to make...

Anyway, I'm very happy because I finally got my deviation under 45.

 

[Winto]

We should be around the half way point of the test now, so there's still a long way to go.

Crobat and Froslass are the ones I'm looking at keeping in UU right now. Froslass is an annoying bitch though, so TBH I would be okay with it leaving. :/

Stall has been pretty good the times I've faced it, but it hasn't been that common, IMO. However, definitely a lot easier on my team than when Abomasnow was here.

 

[Bakachild]

so if it keeps all those pokemon in check it will be a good addition to uu.

I don't see the point your trying to make...

Anyway, I'm very happy because I finally got my deviation under 45.

The point is these bulky waters are near impossible to take down when you got Crobat switching in the grass attacks which is x4 resist and OHKO back with Brave Bird. It almost seems like impossible

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The point is these bulky waters are near impossible to take down when you got Crobat switching in the grass attacks which is x4 resist and OHKO back with Brave Bird. It almost seems like impossible

If you were to predict Crobat coming in then you can use Psychic, which is an OHKO with rocks. And once again, Shaymin is not the only good bulky Water check available in UU.

And just to let everyone know, I'm currently going to be voting UU for Raikou (if I make the requirements), and my stance is unlikely to change come the end of the test.

 

[Stagnant]

And just to let everyone know, I'm currently going to be voting UU for Raikou (if I make the requirements), and my stance is unlikely to change come the end of the test.

I'd rather deal with Shaymin and Bulky waters than having to carry a reliable check for Raikou. You can deal with bulky waters with your team and same goes for Shaymin to an extent. Raikou, however, you have to carry Chansey or Regice or bust. I really don't care for the current UU metagame but it is much better now than it was with any of the current suspects.

Edit:
Also one thing that kept Crobat checked was the fact that Choice scarf Staraptor was waiting around the corner to revenge kill the bat or what ever switched in. So.. it will be interesting seeing Crobat up and about. Froslass gives me the excuse to use Foresight Hitmontop again so I don't really care much about her..

 

[umbarsc]

You're just not trying hard enough when you think that Chansey and Regice are the only Raikou counters in UU.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Really? I used Shuca Berry CM Raikou and it was pretty unstoppable with CM / Thunderbolt / HP Fire / Shadow Ball. I'd like to hear what other counters you're using for Raikou, because this thing is just going to barrel through most mons that aren't Chansey and Regice. The old-school tanks Hypno and Grumpig just don't have it in them especially when taking neutral Thunderbolts or SE Shadow Balls. Steelix and Registeel run into the issue of Shuca Berry and bulk, and the former gets run through by HP Fire. The only solid ones I can think of are Gastrodon (and that loses to HP Grass, which is much more common) and Quagsire (which doesn't really appreciate a boosted Shadow Ball), as well as maybe Cradily (especially in Sand but potentially loses to HP Ice). Bottom line, Raikou is one of the most devastating things that came in, and if I make ranking, I'm definitely voting it BL.

 

[kd24]

I don't know if anyone has talked about this but Regirock is a definite Suspect to me. If you haven't faced Careful Regirock - Curse / Rest / Sleep Talk / Rock Slide Regirock in sand, then you haven't faced the Pokemon that is simply almost impossible to take down. This thing takes hits like a champ, and almost nothing can really hurt it, especially if you can save it for lategame and just spread around some pain early.


Twash used this guy in UU Smogon Tour and was very successful with it, and it still is an unknown threat. Seriously, take some time to just try out a SS team with him on it if you want to just dominate the game.


Regirock is currently making me miss the heavy hitting Gallade and Staraptor who could at least make his life a pain, as well as Abomasnow. Hail has gone down with him gone and Hippopotas is as prominent as ever, being used to change weather of RD and SD teams as well.

 

[AeroGP]

I've just recently tangoed with Regirock in the sand, and it's devestating after a few curses. Personally, I just Knock Off its lefties and wail on it with STAB fighting. Physical water also works, so Azumaril isn't too poor an option. But yeah, you'd better pray you break through in about 3-4 turns, or you're skating on extremely thin ice...

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Really? I used Shuca Berry CM Raikou and it was pretty unstoppable with CM / Thunderbolt / HP Fire / Shadow Ball. I'd like to hear what other counters you're using for Raikou, because this thing is just going to barrel through most mons that aren't Chansey and Regice.

Try Camerupt, Nidoqueen, Cradily, Muk, Umbreon, Lanturn, Ampharos etc, plus a bunch of stuff on Sand teams, in addition to Gastrodon and Registeel. Clearly not 'unstoppable', and that's if you're not willing to use Chansey or Regice.

I don't know if anyone has talked about this but Regirock is a definite Suspect to me. If you haven't faced Careful Regirock - Curse / Rest / Sleep Talk / Rock Slide Regirock in sand, then you haven't faced the Pokemon that is simply almost impossible to take down. This thing takes hits like a champ, and almost nothing can really hurt it, especially if you can save it for lategame and just spread around some pain early.

Yeah I've run into that set a few times. It was only remotely difficult to deal with before I realized it was a mono-Rock attacker and not carrying Earthquake. After that it was easy setup bait for a number of my Pokes, including Curse Registeel and Nasty Plot Toxicroak. Torterra never really cared either way whilst I was using one either; it appreciated the easy setup opportunity. All in all it can be effective, but the lack of real bite to its attack without 4 or more Curses up makes it too easily forced out early-to-mid game, making it just like any other Cro-esque sweeper; try to eliminate all the setup sweepers, hazers and Perish Songers with your other five Pokes before unleashing it in a last Pokemon situation to clean up. Good, but far from broken.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Curse Regirock in Sand, Careful, 252/252 HP SpAtk, is practically unbreakable. All the mono-rock attackers are doing it wrong with Sleep Talk. In UU, you can easily set up three curses and then: Resto Chesto! You're ready to go with Hammer Arm and Stone Edge.

This can sweep entire teams in OU, and it would tear up UU even worse. Regirock is EASILY suspect. I have warstories to prove this, although I haven't bothered posting any. However, I am thinking of transitioning my OU CurseRock team down to UU.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

While a bit off the beaten path, I have stalled Curse Regirock with Haze Milotic and beaten it with Swords Dance Shaymin. I can see how it can be problematic, but its weak attack allows for easy phazing and setting up upon.

 

[Relictivity]

Try Camerupt, Nidoqueen, Cradily, Muk, Umbreon, Lanturn, Ampharos etc, plus a bunch of stuff on Sand teams, in addition to Gastrodon and Registeel. Clearly not 'unstoppable', and that's if you're not willing to use Chansey or Regice.



Yeah I've run into that set a few times. It was only remotely difficult to deal with before I realized it was a mono-Rock attacker and not carrying Earthquake. After that it was easy setup bait for a number of my Pokes, including Curse Registeel and Nasty Plot Toxicroak. Torterra never really cared either way whilst I was using one either; it appreciated the easy setup opportunity. All in all it can be effective, but the lack of real bite to its attack without 4 or more Curses up makes it too easily forced out early-to-mid game, making it just like any other Cro-esque sweeper; try to eliminate all the setup sweepers, hazers and Perish Songers with your other five Pokes before unleashing it in a last Pokemon situation to clean up. Good, but far from broken.

Camerupt - Not enough Special Defense, is going to have to take 2 hits because of low speed.

Nidoqueen- Shadow Ball from a Calm Mind hurts unless you have the Rivalry debuff.

Cradily- Only works in sandstorm and still takes alot from thunderbolt. Not all carry earthquake, and eartquake still won't 1HKO.

Muk - No electric Resistance, Sub will prevent you from Tricking

Umbreon - Good, but what can it do to one that's behind a sub?

Lanturn - Sub/Calm Mind will eventually beat it

Ampharos - An OK counter, but can't hit Raikou back very hard, so it doesn't really work out as planned.


Really, the only good way to beat it other than the two mentioned or a regirock in Sandstorm is to roar it out... and then you will reach the "last pokemon standing situation" and lose, because you can't roar.

One pokemon that may be able to tempoararily delay it is Clefable. But knowing Encore, I wouldn't attempt to Calm Mind on it.

The regirock set is played late game... so you know what the opponents fighters are... also, if your Registeel is not CroSteel, it is going to lose, and if so, it will still be a stall battle.

 

[the_artic_one]

Camerupt - Not enough Special Defense, is going to have to take 2 hits because of low speed.
+1 shadow ball 28.70% - 34.02%, earth power does 71.60% - 84.32% back.
Nidoqueen- Shadow Ball from a Calm Mind hurts unless you have the Rivalry debuff.
That's not what rivalry does, 29.17% - 34.38% doesn't hurt that much, especially not compared to STAB EQ.

Cradily- Only works in sandstorm and still takes alot from thunderbolt. Not all carry earthquake, and eartquake still won't 1HKO.
18.35% - 21.54% (no SS) is not "alot", especially when you can recover and EQ.

Muk - No electric Resistance, Sub will prevent you from Tricking
What does this mean? Muk doesn't learn trick. +1 thunderbolt only does 32.37% - 38.16% to the standard cursemuk
Umbreon - Good, but what can it do to one that's behind a sub?
Taunt it.

Lanturn - Sub/Calm Mind will eventually beat it
I'll give you that.

Ampharos - An OK counter, but can't hit Raikou back very hard, so it doesn't really work out as planned.
It can toxic but that gets blocked by sub.

I'm beginning to question if you know what you're talking about at all.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Camerupt - Not enough Special Defense, is going to have to take 2 hits because of low speed.

Can take 2 hits from +1 Raikou and always 2HKO back. How's that not a counter?

Nidoqueen- Shadow Ball from a Calm Mind hurts unless you have the Rivalry debuff.

Again Nidoqueen can survive 2 hits from +1 Raikou and 2HKO back. Lol at Rivalry quip, I don't have a clue what you're getting at.

Cradily- Only works in sandstorm and still takes alot from thunderbolt. Not all carry earthquake, and eartquake still won't 1HKO.

Takes laughable damage from Thunderbolt even without SS, can SD up and Recover when necessary, then obliterate Raikou with STAB attacks. No EQ required.

Muk - No electric Resistance, Sub will prevent you from Tricking

If it can take two +1 Thunderbolts and 2HKO back with Poison Jab, lack of resistance doesn't matter. And Tricking? What do you mean?

Umbreon - Good, but what can it do to one that's behind a sub?

I thought we were talking about SDS' set, but its irrelevant anyway. Sub is just a waste of HP. Umbreon breaks it then continues to wear down Raikou whilst sponging special hits. It's not rocket science.

Lanturn - Sub/Calm Mind will eventually beat it

Again, I was referring to SDS' set, but Waterfall can consistently break the Subs anyway.

Ampharos - An OK counter, but can't hit Raikou back very hard, so it doesn't really work out as planned.

Ampharos can throw up a Light Screen, then Seismic Toss to eventually wear it down, and possibly paralyze Sub-less variants.

I don't know why we are making such a fuss about this though. I was just refuting SDS' claim that his Raikou set was virtually unstoppable. That's not to say whether it's broken or not, as counters, or lack of, has little to do with a Pokemon's tier status anyway.

The regirock set is played late game... so you know what the opponents fighters are... also, if your Registeel is not CroSteel, it is going to lose, and if so, it will still be a stall battle.

After just two Curses, Registeel's Iron Head will OHKO with a crit, which is bound to happen eventually, and can occasionally flinch in the meantime. Regirock needs almost max Attack to have that kind of chance with the weak and ineffective Rock Slide.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Camerupt - Worst case scenario (besides HP Water): Modest Life Orb +1 Raikou's Shadow Ball does 81.49% - 96.09%. Without a boost (meaning it predicted Camerupt's entrance) the same Raikou does 54.45% - 64.06%.
Meanwhile, max Attack Camerupt has a clean KO on 68 HP/0 Def Raikou with Earthquake.

If Camerupt invests in max HP, it takes 44.48% - 52.33%.

Nidoqueen - Takes 51.04% - 60.16% from a +1 Max SpA Modest Life Orb Raikou. (Max HP/no SDef) 3HKO even with Stealth Rock down. And then it deals 69.23% - 81.66% back with Earthquake (min Atk).

Cradily - Again from +1 Modest Life Orb Raikou. Shadow Ball deals 35.83% - 42.25% to 252 HP/96 SDef Cradily...without Sandstorm. Earthquake deals 45.56% - 53.85% back. Cradily has Recover so it wins.

Muk - +1 Modest Life Orb Thunderbolt: 56.52% - 66.67% to 252 HP/176 SDef Careful. Poison Jab deals 33.73% - 39.94%. Muk has Explosion, I guess.

Umbreon - Uh, I'm not sure about this one considering it has similar stats as Muk, only worse attack.

Lanturn: +1 Shadow Ball 2HKOs the Standard.

Keep in mind that only 8.2% of last month's Raikous were Modest, and less than 8.3% held Life Orb. (In January, 15.8% held Life Orb and 8% were Modest.) So some of the Pokemon above who fell to my extreme example can still work against some Raikou.

For example, take Lanturn vs the Standard: A +6 Timid Max SpA does 28.00% - 33.18% to a Calm 252 SDef/136 HP Lanturn with HP Ice, so it needs a crit or some other attack.

SDS's set falls to Toxic. Raikou needs 5 CM's to 2HKO Lanturn with Shadow Ball. By the time it attacks, Toxic will have sapped 13.75/16 of Raikou's health (85%), assuming Toxic does not miss and not counting the damage Lanturn has inflicted on Raikou. On the next turn, Raikou will KO Lanturn but will then die.

Of course, Camerupt fails as a counter if Raikou has HP Water, Nidoqueen does worse if it has HP Ice, HP Fighting wrecks Cradily, etc. But Raikou can't have all of those at once.

But anyway, even the most extreme Raikou will have more counters than just Regice and Chansey.