I'm sorry, but how do we know the hidden abilities are getting released, can someone link me?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: UU Stage 1 - Changes
- Thread starter Calloflochie
- Start date
- Status
Are you using SD/Ice Shard/Wood Hammer/Ice Punch then?
The SD set is usually SD/Ice Shard/Seed Bomb/EQ.
For the most part yeah, although it's worth noting that Wood Hammer OHKOs Mega-Blastoise and has a guaranteed 2HKO on CroCune, while Seed Bomb does neither. I've only ever used Mega-Snow on a hyper offensive TR team, though, so I didn't mind being a bit suicidal.
I prefer Seed bomb since you basically invest in HP and attack only since it is pretty slow. You miss out on some KOs, but you gain a lot more longevity, being able to take more hits from the likes of Celebi and other resisted attacks, in addition to not being punished as much for making a mis prediction (ie going for wood hammer vs seed bomb vs Jirachi).
Well yeah I knew that but thought he wouldn't be running EQ since he mentioned Fire and Steel-types as problems. If EQ were there wouldn't it make more sense to say that Fighting-types were the main troublemakers (especially under TR)?
it looks like we're all pretty bored so feel free to dscuss the most likely tier changes that will be happening in january, those being:
jirachi, azelf, and raikou up to OU
sylveon and mandibuzz down to UU with a slight possibility of mamoswine and conkeldurr as well.
personally, i see these shifts as a huge boost to the tier. without jirachi around, mega alakazam might get pushed back to BL unless peple find mandibuzz actually useful (they won't it sucks), but aside from that, i'm really happy about everything else.
azelf and raikou won't be huge losses cause one barely saw play (and can be replaced with regular aerodactyl as an HO lead) and the other is can actually be replaced to an extent by heliolisk of all things, so its all good.
i'm really hyped about sylveon though. unfortunately, it'll come a little to late due to florges having gotten synthesis, thus making it a better calm mind user, but specs sylveon hits like a fucking truck--harder than mega gardevoir, actually. it has all the coverage it needs in psyshock and shadow ball, and it can fill its last slot with baton pass to act as a pivot when you can't just attack for some reason.
mandibuzz will help stall, but that's about it. garb.
mamoswine will probably be broken here, its stabs are just too fuckin good lol
what im most hyped about is conk though, if this thing drops i expect machamp usage to plummet, which is honestly the best thing ever because well,,, fuck machamp.
jirachi, azelf, and raikou up to OU
sylveon and mandibuzz down to UU with a slight possibility of mamoswine and conkeldurr as well.
personally, i see these shifts as a huge boost to the tier. without jirachi around, mega alakazam might get pushed back to BL unless peple find mandibuzz actually useful (they won't it sucks), but aside from that, i'm really happy about everything else.
azelf and raikou won't be huge losses cause one barely saw play (and can be replaced with regular aerodactyl as an HO lead) and the other is can actually be replaced to an extent by heliolisk of all things, so its all good.
i'm really hyped about sylveon though. unfortunately, it'll come a little to late due to florges having gotten synthesis, thus making it a better calm mind user, but specs sylveon hits like a fucking truck--harder than mega gardevoir, actually. it has all the coverage it needs in psyshock and shadow ball, and it can fill its last slot with baton pass to act as a pivot when you can't just attack for some reason.
mandibuzz will help stall, but that's about it. garb.
mamoswine will probably be broken here, its stabs are just too fuckin good lol
what im most hyped about is conk though, if this thing drops i expect machamp usage to plummet, which is honestly the best thing ever because well,,, fuck machamp.
kokoloko I remember these tier shifts that you are refering about(swine/conk/sylv/mandi drop and zelf/rachi/kou rise) were discussed about a bit before the official ORAS release. Is there anything new that UU might lose/gain? Notably, probable drops I'm speculating about are Medicham(pretty outclassed by Gallade, hardwalled by Mega Sableye, harsher competition for the mega slot in general), Salamence(only rose because of its mega which got banned in the meantime) and maybe Zapdos and Venusaur(the former suks, the latter is good but suffers from competition which is made even more harsh by the hype new stuff is getting); meanwhile, UU might possibly lose Gallade, Lopunny, Diancie, Altaria, Beedrill and Sceptile(the former four have their mega stones banned and their regular form sucks tho). Also Raikou literally has OU in its name so yeah lol.
Yeah I actually don't see any of those shifts happening now besides Mandi and Raikou, Azelf got shit on by the introduction of Sableye and Sylveon's usage skyrocketed because of Gardevoir's newfound opportunity cost. Conk is also (temporarily) getting better in OU because it acts as a check to Greninja for offensive teams.
Jirachi move is still a possibility I guess but I just haven't seen it anywhere besides the suspect ladder which doesn't count.
Medi seems like the most likely drop to me which isn't going to be of much consequence until Medichamite is tested.
Going into ORAS I really expected us to see Mane and Venusaur in UU at some point, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen just yet.
Jirachi move is still a possibility I guess but I just haven't seen it anywhere besides the suspect ladder which doesn't count.
Medi seems like the most likely drop to me which isn't going to be of much consequence until Medichamite is tested.
Going into ORAS I really expected us to see Mane and Venusaur in UU at some point, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen just yet.
Thank god Jirachi is gonna leave, I hated that thing. Mandi isn't that bad, it still has it's merits as a bulky defogger that doesn't just sit there I guess versus something similar to forry. Zelf and Kou aren't huge losses either. Sylv is essentially going to be a harder hitting florges without synthesis, so I ll predict their usefulness will be about the same. Conk will be cool if it drops, and as said above, machamp will be pretty bad. Mamo sounds broken at first, but I still kinda wanna see how it works in the meta.
I can see Mandibuzz being good in the tier considering it has retarded bulk, reliable recovery, phasing, defogging, knock off/foul play lol, wtf do you think it has to compete with in defensive defogging, gligar?
Mamo will probably be booted if it even drops, just because it's one reliable check is bronzong imo.
losing raikou won't be that bad because flying spam isn't as much of an issue, and same with jirachi, tho I can't say losing jirachi is something I'm sad about. Healing Wish scarf with reliance on hax basically defined a good portion of balanced/offensive teams.
Kinda sad to see Victini or Zapdos not drop, I think those would be great additions to the tier (if mence drops etc etc).
Mamo will probably be booted if it even drops, just because it's one reliable check is bronzong imo.
losing raikou won't be that bad because flying spam isn't as much of an issue, and same with jirachi, tho I can't say losing jirachi is something I'm sad about. Healing Wish scarf with reliance on hax basically defined a good portion of balanced/offensive teams.
Kinda sad to see Victini or Zapdos not drop, I think those would be great additions to the tier (if mence drops etc etc).
I dunno, unlike RU we're full of bulky waters which heliolisk can switch into far more times than jolteon, which is really important as thats often the type of mon that will be switched in to and force out Beedrill. It also has a handy normal STAB to hit electric resists without being locked into a hidden power that's more easily taken advantage of, and overall better coverage with surf/grassknot/focusblast in the last slot.
In a tier where Fighting is such an important type I'd say Gligar is in fact valid competition for Mandibuzz, who lacks that crucial resist.
Honestly I kind of love Jirachi in this tier, and what it does, and I'll be sad to see it go... except for the stupid flinch-happy Scarf set. That set can go die in a fire.
I'm pretty excited about Mandibuzz. I think it has a place on bulky balance teams as a defensive pivot and defogger, rather than just on stall as kokoloko says. Of course, the sheer quantity of fighting spam and Darmanitan might make its job harder, since threats like Darm, Mienshao and the like can consistently 2HKO it. (Even the scarf versions have a decent chance of 2HKOing the mixed set, so Mandi might be forced to go fully physically defensive.)
I like Raikou a lot, so I'll be sad to see it go, but I'm not going to pretend its irreplaceable.
Sylveon... eh. It doesn't actually do anything all that new. The cleric set is boring and there are a million fairies that do more or less the same thing. The Specs set is interesting, but I don't think it's going to bring about Fairy Tier 2.0 or anything. It'll definitely be good, and might put lesser fairies out of a job, but I don't think it'll have a huge change on the tier as a whole. Maybe I'm being naive, though....
Conk will be interesting. On the one hand, it has better bulk than Machamp, hits harder with its coverage moves, and perhaps most importantly, has STAB priority. On the other hand, the lack of Close Combat (or No Guard Dynamicpunch, but don't use that) means its main attack hits less hard than Machamp's despite the higher attack. It also lacks Heavy Slam to take out fairies, and has to use Poison Jab instead. It will certainly outclass Champ, I have no doubt about that, but I'm curious to see how much of a difference it will actually make in the tier.
I'm pretty excited about Mandibuzz. I think it has a place on bulky balance teams as a defensive pivot and defogger, rather than just on stall as kokoloko says. Of course, the sheer quantity of fighting spam and Darmanitan might make its job harder, since threats like Darm, Mienshao and the like can consistently 2HKO it. (Even the scarf versions have a decent chance of 2HKOing the mixed set, so Mandi might be forced to go fully physically defensive.)
I like Raikou a lot, so I'll be sad to see it go, but I'm not going to pretend its irreplaceable.
Sylveon... eh. It doesn't actually do anything all that new. The cleric set is boring and there are a million fairies that do more or less the same thing. The Specs set is interesting, but I don't think it's going to bring about Fairy Tier 2.0 or anything. It'll definitely be good, and might put lesser fairies out of a job, but I don't think it'll have a huge change on the tier as a whole. Maybe I'm being naive, though....
Conk will be interesting. On the one hand, it has better bulk than Machamp, hits harder with its coverage moves, and perhaps most importantly, has STAB priority. On the other hand, the lack of Close Combat (or No Guard Dynamicpunch, but don't use that) means its main attack hits less hard than Machamp's despite the higher attack. It also lacks Heavy Slam to take out fairies, and has to use Poison Jab instead. It will certainly outclass Champ, I have no doubt about that, but I'm curious to see how much of a difference it will actually make in the tier.
Last edited:
good riddance to rachi, that thing is annoying af
mandibuzz is just another defogger that takes a dump on roserade, nothing new here. it's even immune to sleep powder thanks to overcoat. shame it doesn't have the best typing, at least it has STAB foul play to make it hit decently hard
rip the three doges being in uu together. other than that it doesn't really change much, we still have other electric types such as heliolisk and jolteon
sylveon, lol: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 172-204 (47.7 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. it's p slow tho but it can run a defensive set fairly well
rip guts machamp. conk can also run iron fist to deal pretty big hits while bluffing guts so things don't status it. sheer force is kinda useless, but its other two abilities are godly. also stab priority is nice. im not sure how well it will be able to pull of a band set like machamp does because it doesn't have close combat. it also relies on poison jab to kill fairies.
lol mamo
mandibuzz is just another defogger that takes a dump on roserade, nothing new here. it's even immune to sleep powder thanks to overcoat. shame it doesn't have the best typing, at least it has STAB foul play to make it hit decently hard
rip the three doges being in uu together. other than that it doesn't really change much, we still have other electric types such as heliolisk and jolteon
sylveon, lol: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 172-204 (47.7 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. it's p slow tho but it can run a defensive set fairly well
rip guts machamp. conk can also run iron fist to deal pretty big hits while bluffing guts so things don't status it. sheer force is kinda useless, but its other two abilities are godly. also stab priority is nice. im not sure how well it will be able to pull of a band set like machamp does because it doesn't have close combat. it also relies on poison jab to kill fairies.
lol mamo
I'm on my phone and can't check right now - does Poison Jab get a boost from Iron Fist? If so, Iron Fist Conk might be pretty decent. I was lamenting its lack of Heavy Slam because PJab is so much weaker against most fairies, but with a boost and coming off of base 140 Attack, it'll be no joke.
According to Bulbapedia (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Iron_Fist_(Ability)) it doesn't give the boost and showdown also doesn't recognize it as a Punch Move. It is still decent to hit fairies pretty hard because they resist the fighting + dark combination
Edit: I don't see why Conkeldurr would drop. It had 9.6% usage in 1695 OU (the stats that are used in OU) so I can't see this thing dropping. According to the usage stats from november, Mandibuzz, Manectric, Heracross, Pinsir, Medicham and Kyurem-Black are under the 3.41% cut-off. Kyurem-Black definitely won't drop because it was used more often this month. Pinsir and Manectric will probably also stay because many people were hyping the new mega's but this month they will probably get above the 3.5%
So I think Medicham, Mandibuzz and Heracross will drop, but nothing is sure
Last edited:
Shit's that's Leaving
Well there goes the most centralizing component of UU. R.I.P. to all teams that used ScarfRachi as the only thing that held your team together.
Although Azelf and Raikou didn't see as much usage as Koko stated, their exodus from UU will have rather big impacts on teambuilding, moreso Azelf than anything else. In my opinion, Azelf was the key lead that held most Offense and even some forms of hyper offense together (or at least get the momentum going). I've never felt that Raikou ever had an impact in UU other than functioning as an AssVest Pivot or a wincon in SubCM. Oh well.
Sylveon
To be completely honest, I think Sylveon has its own niche as a really good offensive pivot in UU. 130 Special Defense allows it to switch into a decent number of Special Attacks, even from some of the tier's hardest hitters.
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 156-184 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
200 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 172-203 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Furthermore, Sylveon has the gift of a slow Baton Pass, meaning that it can allow frailer threats on the team to switch into play safely. Definitely a neat tool for Bulky Offense teams to play around with.
Mandibuzz
I think that Mandibuzz isn't going to be as useful, even on stall. Mandibuzz's typing legitimately provides very little benefits for stall outside of a check to Mega Alakazam. It's bulk distribution would be fine if it wasn't weak to Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock singlehandedly reduces its ability to perform well defensively. Without rocks, Mega Alakazam snags a 3HKO with Focus Miss while Mandibuzz clutches it with a 2HKO. However, after one Stealth Rock switch-in, that 3HKO becomes a 96.1% chance to 2HKO. Furthermore, Mandibuzz does fucking terribly against some of UU's prevalent wallbreakers. CB Machamp scores a 2HKO with Close Combat and LO Mienshao has a 50/50 chance of 2HKOing, both without the assistance of Stealth Rock. Furthermore, we have to acknowledge that Mandibuzz is a fucking terrible hazard remover for stall. Arguably, a lot of stall teams opt for Rapid Spin over Defog to preserve their hazards on the opponent's side unless the Defogger provides really good defensive synergy or does multiple roles for the team. The fact that Mandibuzz has a bad typing and is painfully one-dimensional makes it a arguably bad pick for Stall or defensive teams altogether. Also, here's how Mandibuzz matches up with Sylveon:
252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 348-410 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, in summary, don't fucking use this garbage. Donate it to the lower tiers. They really need it.
Conkeldurr
I highly doubt Conkeldurr will come and join UU, but if it does, I would like to let everyone know of this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/celestial-beings-full-trick-room.3470556/
Best Trick Room team ever.
First off, I would like to put some number comparisons out there:
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bronzong: 229-271 (67.7 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bronzong: 153-180 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bronzong: 204-240 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bronzong: 244-288 (72.1 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bronzong: 183-216 (54.1 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So as kokoloko stated, Conkeldurr is signifcantly weaker than Machamp when comparing the same set (CB w/ Guts). However, change an ability, and the landscape changes significantly, and that's what I definitely think will make Conkeldurr a suspect in UU.
Unlike the one-dimensional Machamp (No Guard DynamicPunch is bad you low ladder fucknuts), Conkeldurr has three very good abilities. Guts allows it to take advantage of status and beat bitches in general. Iron Fist significantly powers up its STAB moves (as well as some forms of coverage), and Sheer Force bumps up the damage done by its most notable coverage moves, Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, and Poison Jab. Each ability affects different aspects of Conkeldurr, and each ability will allow it to fuck around with different defensive threats.
Florges
252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 312-368 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 406-478 (112.7 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Suicune
252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 224-264 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cresselia
252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 234-276 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Granbull
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 176-208 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 226-268 (59 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Conkeldurr's movepool is undeniably one-dimensional. However, it's the availability of three very good abilities that make it a very good wallbreaker. As the calculations have demonstrated, just by switching one ability, Conkeldurr turn 3HKOs to 2HKOs and 2HKOs to OHKOs, thus making traditional Fighting-type switch-ins completely unsafe. And I haven't even begun to mention the other sets that it could run, such as Bulk Up, Assault Vest, etc., all of which are equally effective for offensive teams. If you want to verify my point regarding Conkeldurr shitting on defensive teams, take hilarious' team in the Sample team thread (the full stall team), and pick either Iron Fist or Sheer Force (and make sure you give Conkeldurr status when using Guts). I will guarantee you at least half of the team gets 2HKOed by set consisting of Hammer Arm/Knock Off/Ice Punch/Poison Jab with any of the three abilities.
MamoswineIt's been such a while since I last used a Mamoswine (Gen IV), so I've kind of forgot how it actually functions. All I know is that Endeavor Stealth Rock lead is pretty good and will probably be used to fill the niche Azelf had on offensive teams as a hazard setter. I can imagine CB Mamoswine being absolutely obnoxious with STAB Earthquakes and Icicle Crash. At least this will put a damper on Zygarde sets.
The Metagame in GeneralAs with all new metagames, this one will be rather offensive oriented, especially with bullshit like Conkeldurr potentially dropping. I definitely believe that Mega-Alakazam and Conkeldurr will get the boot (a.k.a. koko's foot up their asses) since these two will undoubtedly become the most centralizing Pokemon in the metagame.
Teambuilding Rules to keep in mind in the drop metagame:
1) Have a scarfer that outspeeds Mega-Alakazam.
2) Get a faster mon that can 2HKO or OHKO Conkeldurr without being 2HKOed by any of Conkeldurr's moves.
Have fun UU!
Welp a Metagame that sounds like completely different and at the same time the exact same sounds fun
Mandi sounds like a second Quag Droping to UU a reaaaly niche mon that is prolly going RU next drop cycle,I mean as of now I`m seeing mostly 1 real thing going for it which is trolling the living shit out of Banded Krook and some minor gimmicks/Dumb Shit like Brave Bird to lure Fighting types and Overcoat to troll Spore users lol.
Sylveon will be pretty interesting not only its the only one is Specs Set sounds extremely solid,while the boring Cleric Sets are boring Sylveon does have 2 amazing things going for it which is Baton Pass for Muh Momentum and the fact Hyper Voice trolls the living crap out of Zyggy,I also really want to try out some other variations maybe like a Pixie Plate Offensive Cleric ala a very crappy Mega Altaria
Mamo if it ever comes UU sounds like a Physically oriented vrsion of Mixed Nidoking in the sense of being the biggest bitch ever to switch into,like only thing that instantly comes up into my mind as a switch in is Suicune
Mandi sounds like a second Quag Droping to UU a reaaaly niche mon that is prolly going RU next drop cycle,I mean as of now I`m seeing mostly 1 real thing going for it which is trolling the living shit out of Banded Krook and some minor gimmicks/Dumb Shit like Brave Bird to lure Fighting types and Overcoat to troll Spore users lol.
Sylveon will be pretty interesting not only its the only one is Specs Set sounds extremely solid,while the boring Cleric Sets are boring Sylveon does have 2 amazing things going for it which is Baton Pass for Muh Momentum and the fact Hyper Voice trolls the living crap out of Zyggy,I also really want to try out some other variations maybe like a Pixie Plate Offensive Cleric ala a very crappy Mega Altaria
Mamo if it ever comes UU sounds like a Physically oriented vrsion of Mixed Nidoking in the sense of being the biggest bitch ever to switch into,like only thing that instantly comes up into my mind as a switch in is Suicune
Freeze Dry doesn't even 2HKO after stealth rocks, since suicune has great natural bulk. EQ does more to standard Suicune.
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 133-159 (32.9 - 39.3%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and:
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mamo still has next to 0 safe switchins in UU, though, so if it does drop (which I doubt it will) it will most likely be banned.
I strongly disagree, mandi is going to be a huge help for alot of defensive and balance teams, its a great defogger and checks a great deal of stuff with it bulk. I have access to foul play knock off taunt u-turn whirlwind which are all great moves that can bolster different play styles according to what moves you choose. But after Dark's boost in Gen 6 I can't see mandi dropping even further, it has way too much going for it rn.
- Status