np: UU Stage 12 - A Beautiful Lie

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McMeghan

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Magneton @ Eviolite
Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 212 HP / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]



Druddigon @ Choice Band
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Dragon Claw

From the RU tier, these two make a pretty legit core in UU (MagneDrudd is good in RU too, but back to the topic). Magneton can trap Bronzong, the most common Steel-type in the tier, with a SubRise set that cannot be touched by Bronzong while wearing it down with repeated Thunderbolts. This thing also wears down Bisharp, Empoleon, and Escavalier pretty easily. Registeel and Cobalion handle this thing well but Thunderbolt does enough to make them ineffective. That said, once those are out of the way thanks to Magneton, Druddigon can be just plain absurd with a CB set; especially with Spikes, almost nothing in UU will enjoy an Outrage from this monster of a Pokemon. Druddigon has a nice defensive typing as well, shitting on Darmanitan+Roserade cores and the likes. EQ is just coverage while Sucker Punch nails Victini and Azelf and picks off weakened opponents. Druddigon also has nice resistances making it a nice Zapdos check while taking on Darmanitan+Roserade cores. Overall I really like using these two and they make for a legit core.

Just some thoughts on cool stuff in this meta.
Ah! Posting my thoughts about this one.

Basically, I love this combo. Back in the UU Grand Slam, I made a team around "DragMag" for the final I had to play against Nachos and Magneton and Druddigon were the key members (I added ScarfGon to the mix) I built the team around. I didnt use the same set tho, here is what I had:

Magneton @ Eviolite
Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Magnet Rise

I find Subsitute kind of useless on Magneton for several reason, first because almost every team pack a solid counter to it (like Snorlax or Shaymin) which means getting a Sub up even after killing Bronzong is rarely very useful. While Magneton primary function is to remove the opponent Steel, it's not always a dead weight versus other teams and can help to check several threats like Crobat, SubRoost Honchkrow, Slowbro, and so on. It can also serve as a good "Frosslass Killer" if you don't mind playing with 2 spikes down (or 1 spike but losing Magneton is usually not a big deal). For those reason, I try to keep it as healthy as possible and didn't see the need to use Sub (his bulk is not negligible with the Eviolite).

I'll also say that Flash Cannon is a pretty useful move, be it to deal more damage vs Rhyperior or to ease predictions (2KO Nidoqueen after SR) since Thunderbolt can be pretty risky to use.

As for the EV's spread, I think I used enough to outspeed Gligar and most Nidoqueen.

At the end, I think it's mostly a question of preference (also: Sub is way more useful if you struggle against Ferroseed), but I wanted to give my opinion about it.

Druddigon (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Sucker Punch
- Dragon Claw
- Aqua Tail

This is basically the same set as you, I just used max HP because I needed the bulk more than the speed creep. I also think Aqua Tail > Earthquake because it deals more damage to Rhyperior + Gligar (doesnt force you to use Outrage against it) and you already have Magneton to remove Bronzong.

While many people think CBFlygon may be better, I'll just say that the power difference is quite huge and Druddigon just hits like a truck and Sucker Punck can be really great to have in your team (also: Bulk).
 
Snorlax

This thing is definitely a top threat in UU as of now; and the fact that he was OU for the past four generations should immediately tell you just how good he is (ie amazing). Although he is slower than almost everything in UU bar Escavalier, Snorlax has quite solid bulk, especially on the special side, which allows him to take on many special attackers, and he stands in UU as one of Chandelure's only true counters, the other being the rather situational Houndoom. He is no sitting duck either, as he has a solid 110 Attack and the moves to work with, allowing him to pose a solid offensive threat, while he can also run CurseLax and RestTalk. These have all allowed Snorlax to cement his place as one of UU's best Pokemon. That aside, my favorite Snorlax set is the standard CBLax, since it hits hard, traps Chandelure, and is overall very useful in the metagame. I tend to use Cofagrigus in conjunction with Snorlax to patch up the lone weakness Snorlax has. Here's an import of the standard CBLax, btw.

Snorlax @ Choice Band
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 52 Def / 200 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch


So what Snorlax set do you use? What impact do you think Snorlax has on the UU metagame? What do you find to be Snorlax's best teammates? And what do you use to deal with Snorlax?

An Underrated Threat

Here's an extremely underrated Pokemon in UU whom I believe deserves way more credit than he gets right now:



Escavalier @ Choice Band
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Pursuit
- Sleep Talk / Return

Escavalier was once a UU Pokemon who for some reason fell to RU, but either way, despite dropping, he is quite a good Pokemon in his former tier. CB Megahorn is a literal nuke button, with its high Base Power and Escavalier's insane Attack stat, allowing Escavalier to 2HKO the vast majority of the UU metagame. He has nice bulk and a slew of resistances to come in on a large number of threats and start spamming Megahorn to dent the team, and it's like CB Druddigon in the sense that it will usually achieve at least one KO in a match. He has Pursuit too, so is anything he checks tries to flee, he can trap them with Pursuit to make sure they take pain. Sleep Talk is quite useful to come in on Offensive Roserade and Amoonguss without worry, and allow Escavalier to spam high power moves even while he's asleep. Return has uses though if Zapdos is a problem.
 
I do like CBLax, because it is the most reliable way to deal with Chandelure. Even if Chandelure goes for Trick, it is gonna die and even without the Choice Band, Snorlax hits so hard that anything that is not a dedicated physically defensive Pokemon still won't want to switch in.

Last evening, I've built a new team from scratch and tested it out. The thing was, I've played around 15 to 20 games, and every Snorlax I've encountered was a Curse variant. I don't know if it was because of a nearly unused alt or because people started picking up Curselax for some random reason.

As to Escavalier:
I used this Escavalier in the past

Escavalier @ Choice Band
Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 88 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Pursuit
- Iron Head
- Sleep Talk

88 Speed EVs to outspeed neutral base 30 Pokes with a maximum of 4 Speed EVs (Offensive Variants of Snorlax / Slowbro / Slowking). My team was about luring in stuff like Cofagrigus, Snorlax etc and volt-turn Escavalier in and press the nuke button.
Shell Armor because I could always guarantee that crits didn't screw me over.
 
Since we're all about supporting CBLax right now, has anyone tried using SD Heracross? I guess there hasn't ever been a metagame where that didn't destroy defensive cores, but thanks to the overwhelming majority of Choice Scarf Moxie Heracross, SD Guts Heracross can be a fantastic lure. I'm running:

Heracross @ Life Orb
ability: Guts
128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Megahorn
Night Slash

This is probably one of the best ways to kill Cofagrigus out there, simply bluff a Scarf set and Swords Dance on the switch. You have to be a little careful of getting Mummy and Burn on the same turn without killing Cofag, but what makes this such a great lure is that nothing really wants to switch into a +2 Heracross, so your opponent is in a tough spot by the time the trap is revealed. This means you can often afford to set up a second Swords Dance as you get Burned, and from there easily OHKO Cofagrigus.

Gligar without U-turn can be similarly beaten (the analysis suggests U-turn by my experience is they rarely have it). If it poisons you, you can count yourself among the lucky few who have OHKOed Gligar with a resisted physical attack. The only way to deal with U-turn Gligar would be to underspeed it, which may not be advisable.

Sableye can be switched in on, depending on how smart you think your opponent is you might want to be subtle about this, as they might pick up on your Guts due to your willingness to get it Burned. Either way though, once your Guts activated Life Orb Heracross is in, something generally dies. If you're lucky, it will Burn you right before you massacre it with Megahorn.

Chandelure must be predicted on the switch, same as any Heracross set. Luckily CBLax destroys Chandelure, so it's not a huge deal if you mispredict. In fact, if it switches in on Close Combat, you can maintain your Choice Scarf bluff (this goes for any ghost, but the rest of them you'd rather stay in and kill). Slowbro can be killed, but not really lured. Dusclops...yeah Dusclops is toast.

So yeah, it can lure and kill a lot of things that give CBLax trouble, and it can kill (but not really lure) a lot of Rock and Steel types that don't want to get Earthquaked but still stand in the way of spamming Return. The main problem with this set is that it gets shut down by Crobat, but thankfully Snorlax does not. Also, if your opponent has another Scarfcross check, they are likely to try that before potentially switching Crobat into Stone Edge.

Edit: the EV's are largely just laziness, I'm sure there is a better mix of HP and Spe you could go for.
 
Yeah honestly I've used SD Heracross since early BW1 (before I even realized MoxieCross was a thing), and it's a beast. My set is somewhat different from yours though:



Heracross (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge / Night Slash

I went for the full Speed investment to make sure Heracross does outspeed some fully invested Pokemon, which can be really helpful for him sometimes. I also went for Leftovers over Life Orb because Heracross likes the little recovery since LO will wear him down too quickly. After an SD boost, he hits insanely hard, and Megahorn+Close Combat hits like a truck. The last slot really depends on what you plan on hitting; Stone Edge is for Crobat while Night Slash gets the edge over Cofagrigus / Dusclops. I like Guts since stray Cofagrigus, Dusclops, and Sableye that try to WoW Hera only actually upgrade his power, and with an SD under his belt, he simply destroys everything; few can take a hit from him afterwards. This set is the bane of all stall teams and slower teams in general.

I might go ahead and discuss something underrated here:



Galvantula (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Compoundeyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Ice

Galvantula is a beast. It may be RU, and it does look inferior to other Bug-types at first, but it wrecks shit in UU thanks to its amazing coverage. Thunder and Bug Buzz wreck most of the tier, and Compoundeyes Thunder is definitely brutal, while Bug Buzz hits Shaymin and Krookodile hard. Giga Drain is awesome to heal a bit while getting at Swampert and Rhyperior, while HP Ice nails Nidoqueen and Gligar. It hits reasonably hard and is not stoppable by Swampert+Flygon duos that typically stop Raikou and Zapdos or those bulky Ground-types in general. Snorlax is literally this set's only true counter, and I just really love this thing in general. It's fast and strong, and it could work when you need it to.
 

kokoloko

what matters is our plan!
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Okay guys, not to break away from the set discussion which I like, but there was some talk on IRC earlier about Victini.

Basically, ever since the introduction of Blue Flare and Bolt Strike to its movepool, Victini has been one of, if not the single most difficult Pokemon to switch into in the tier. With a grand total of 0 truly safe switchins until you know the set (Slowbro/king come close because they can't be OHKOd by anything and have Regenerator, but they can't stay in for two hits most of the time), Victini has what a I like to call "Salamence Syndrome." If you were around during late DPP, you know what I'm talking about.

Basically, the counters to the Special set lose to the physical set and vice versa, so you're never safe when it first comes out. This is obviously not enough to be considered "broken", but when your individual sets already have such a limited number of counters to begin with, things start looking a little iffy.

Because of this, there's talk about making Victini a suspect sometime in the near future. I want to hear opinions from the general playerbase about it first, though, so pay your 2 cents if you will.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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Honestly, I used to think Victini wasn't all that great (Even with the threat of STAB CB V-Create) because I felt like the physical set was so predictable, the SR weakness hindered it (specially with U-Turn), and even Mixtini could only 2HKO Swampert with Grass Knot unless it ran significant special attack EVs...

...And then I started using the special Life Orb set:

Victini @ Life Orb
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SDef
Timid nature
- Blue Flare
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Grass Knot

This thing is so anti-everything, it's not even funny. The ridiculous amount of coverage it has against most teams is just downright rude, especially when most players aren't prepared for it. Lots of people lead with their Swampert/Rhyperior expecting Scarf Victini to U-Turn as they get their rocks up...suddenly it's 6-5 with a Grass Knot OHKO. Just the sheer power of this set has collected a ton of kills, it really made me realize that Victini just may be worthy of S-Rank after all.

Snorlax is still annoying tho, unless it switches in on a Focus Blast after Rocks. Then it's just downright comical.

Edit: Got carried away in my adoration for this set, I meant to also add that I really don't think Victini needs to be suspected. Snorlax kinda deals with it to a decent degree. Non-Scarfed Victini is pretty much endangered by Weavile, and Honchkrow and Bisharp would love for it to try something. A healthy Umbreon can take anything not called Choice Band V-Create and just kill it with Foul Play. And the sad part is for the set I mentioned above, even some bulky waters are only 2-3HKO'd by Thunder since you lack the STAB Victini wishes it could have, while you're threatened with a Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump/Bubblebeam to the face for a potential KO.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
Bubblebeam Blastoise for Übers.

On a serious note though, Victini can perform a variety of roles extremely well, but it's not broken overall. Once you do figure out what set it is (and you can usually assume Physical to begin with without much chance of error, unfortunately people haven't fully discovered the wonders of special victini), it's pretty predictable. V-create, as strong as it is, forces Victini to be more of a hit-and-run poke, which not only forces its teammates to switch in and take hits, but also gives the opponent some free turns. It's also worth noting that Victini's groundedness and SR weakness makes it hard to keep alive for long if you recklessly U-turn and V-create.

A set that I think people haven't considered much is a sort of mixed set. It's pretty devastating when your opponent sees V-create the first time, switches in a Qwilfish (how does qwilfish end up in every single one of my analogies holy shit) on the V-create, and then gets smacked with a Psychic. The set I've had the most trouble with was something like this, I assume.

Victini @ Life Orb
Trait: Victory STar
EVs: ~200 SpA/~200 Atk/~200 Speed?
Rash Nature
- Psychic
- V-Create
- U-turn
- Grass Knot

As you can tell, I'm not sure about what EV Spread or even move set would be the most efficient on this. There's probably a base cut off point for what nets you a kill on certain threats, but I'm not sure of what it'd be off the top of my head. Maxing speed doesn't seem like the best idea because it doesn't let you outspeed much other than Timid Offensive Roserade or something, so maybe the cutoff would be enough to outspeed +Natured base 86? I'm not sure. I'm curious to see what you guys think about a mixed Tini set and what you'd do with the moves/EVs, there seems to be a lot of potential.


(Oh, I don't think there needs to be a suspect btw. Having awesome coverage and potential versatility is great, but it still is only coming off of Base 100 offenses and an SR weakness.)
 
Bubblebeam Blastoise for Übers.

A set that I think people haven't considered much is a sort of mixed set. It's pretty devastating when your opponent sees V-create the first time, switches in a Qwilfish (how does qwilfish end up in every single one of my analogies holy shit) on the V-create, and then gets smacked with a Psychic. The set I've had the most trouble with was something like this, I assume.
That would be quite risky for the victini player to do if SR was up, as without any attack investment and rocks damage, qwilfish will outspeed -1 victini and very likely KO with waterfall in return. (assuming the qwilfish player has their EV's the same as onsite analysis)

Anyway, while I wouldn't mind a suspect test for victini, I don't really hold any sort of hope for that being productive, especially after the piss poor effort in the chandelure suspect thread. Already we're getting the same crap in terms of "dat stealth rock weakness lulz!!1!" and I'm just going to go ahead and save people the trouble of trundling out the "snorlax counters" argument, since CBLax will revenge kill any victini easily after a V-Create with pursuit, while special ones either receive a similar fate or get crunched if they try and be clever with focus blast.

Again, I don't mind it being suspected because its wall-breaking capabilities make it pretty damn difficult to deal with. I'm also not overly happy about the rapdily increasing reliance on snorlax to the point where it's now a borderline auto-include to any team in order to deal with 'mons like victini. I just don't hold much hope for discussion unless VERY strict ground rules are set for it.
 

Iminyourcloset

OBJECTION! What do you mean I have a weakness now?!
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Victini is a powerful little fucker.
In my personal opinion, it doesn't need to be suspected, but I can understand why people think so, though. So if it does get suspected, oh well. If you misjudge its set, you're screwed, pretty much. Generally, I know I can deal with it (bulky waters <3) but even then it has Bolt Strike and Grass Knot and Whathaveyou. :C

But it's not really overpowered beyond belief or anything, imo.
 
Well, to be honest, I don't really think Victini should be suspected, though I can see where people are coming from with why they think it should be. Victini is extremely powerful; it has two insane STAB moves from both sides of the spectrum, with V-Create and Blue Flare hitting like nukes. Victini also has great coverage options, with Bolt Strike, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Psyshock, Zen Headbutt, etc. These make Victini pretty damn difficult to wall. Victini is also pretty unpredictable, with the classic outright physical set with V-Create, or Special Victini with Blue Flare, Grass Knot, etc. MixTini is also pretty good, hitting through both kinds of walls. Like Iminyourcloset said, if you mispredict it, you're fucked. Snorlax and Slowbro are good bets, though the coverage can be detrimental to their ability to counter them. That said, it is vulnerable to Pursuit, Stealth Rock+Spikes, and more, so eh.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
It's also worth noting that even though Victini can be used very effectively in a manner that might make it suspected, the majority of people using it stick to V-Creating and U-turning, making Vic very easy to take down. I think there's potential for it to be suspected, but not the way that people are using it in the current meta.

Another set that hasn't been mentioned is the trick room set. V-create becomes deadly when spammable, and no Speed EVs allows you to invest in a mixed attacking set or invest in bulk to ensure that a TR goes up. It can surprise a lot of the typical counters as well.

Honestly, just in terms of exploitable weaknesses Victini is pretty poor. Unless I'm forgetting something, it's weak to Rock, Ground, Dark, Ghost, and Water. Water, Rock, and Ground are all fairly defensive types, but that means that the things who can take Vic's V-creates (Qwilfish, Blastoise, Slowbro, Rhyperior) can also easily threaten it out with their stabs. Dark and Ghost weaknesses make it weak to Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Shadow Sneak. It also doesn't have any immunities, and is completely neutral against VoltTurn.

I honestly think its these weaknesses that should keep Vic from being an otherwise very suspectable poke. If Kingdra, a threatening offensive mon that also boasts only one weakness, had all base 100 stats, we'd suspect it on the spot.
 
More Hidden Gems

With the Victini discussion aside, I'd like to discuss some more underrated Pokemon that I find to be pretty excellent in the current UU metagame.



Cinccino @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- U-turn

I love Cinccino, it's ridiculously adorable and cute, and it's pretty good in battle too. Cinccino is really powerful, with its Tail Slap coming off of LO/CB hitting like a damn truck, and anything that doesn't resist it is taking some real pain. Bullet Seed is the coverage move, and sends Rhyperior and many Bulky Water-types running for the hills. Rock Blast is pretty awesome to nail Chandelure and Zapdos, the former of which is immune to Tail Slap and resists Bullet Seed. U-turn is nice to switch out of Bronzong and Cofagrigus, the otherwise counters to Cincy. Cinccino is also ridiculously fast, meaning it can quickly fire its powerful hits to smash the whole tier. Cinccino has a really good chance at sweeping teams since it's only really walled by Steel-types, and even those are scarce in UU. Overall Cinccino is quite a beast, and I love using it in UU.

What are some hidden gems you guys have found that although reside in RU/NU, you've found to be great choices in UU?
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
Chat Topic said:
[10:21:14] * Topic is 'serious: potentially suspecting victini AND froslass--make posts in the np thread about them, please.'
What are your thoughts on suspecting Victini and Froslass? I can understand the logic behind suspecting them. Victini as far as I can understand is getting suspected because of its diversity as well as its sheer power. All of the things that would normally wall the physical sets (ie: Rhyperior, Suicune, Slowbro) get hardcore nuked by the special set via something like Grass Knot, and this works in reverse as well (you wouldn't want to switch Snorlax or Umbreon into a Brick Break or a V-create.) Once you figure out the set, it does become much easier to deal with, but that initial moment when it hits the field, you really don't have a clue about what it's going to do, and that might force you to play a pokemon down for the rest of the match.

As for Froslass, the logic is that it's basically free spikes. I've noticed this among myself and other players that once you see Froslass on the opposing side, you've basically resigned to the fact that you're going to play the game with a layer of spikes down. It's come to the point where we've started thinking "can I prevent it from getting TWO layers of Spikes down?" Cursed Body just makes it easier. With an amptly-timed Disable, you might force a switch and just get additional layers down. Froslass makes it very very easy for offensive teams to start breaking down walls and cores.

Anyways what are your thoughts? There's certainly an argument for both sides, so feel free to discuss!
 
I already made my post about whether Victini should be suspected earlier in this threat. I'll just requote it for the record.

Well, to be honest, I don't really think Victini should be suspected, though I can see where people are coming from with why they think it should be. Victini is extremely powerful; it has two insane STAB moves from both sides of the spectrum, with V-Create and Blue Flare hitting like nukes. Victini also has great coverage options, with Bolt Strike, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Psyshock, Zen Headbutt, etc. These make Victini pretty damn difficult to wall. Victini is also pretty unpredictable, with the classic outright physical set with V-Create, or Special Victini with Blue Flare, Grass Knot, etc. MixTini is also pretty good, hitting through both kinds of walls. Like Iminyourcloset said, if you mispredict it, you're fucked. Snorlax and Slowbro are good bets, though the coverage can be detrimental to their ability to counter them. That said, it is vulnerable to Pursuit, Stealth Rock+Spikes, and more, so eh.
As for Froslass.

I see Froslass as kind of the UU version of RU's Scolipede; she gets Spikes up pretty easily thanks to her wonderful Speed tier, and has no trouble at all. The big thing about her though is that she can both spinblock AND spike, which means she will spike, but also prevent spinners from removing her work. Cursed Body has been a complete lifesaver at times, disabling an attack allowing her to set up even more Spikes. She also has Taunt to prevent Roserade and Qwilfish from setting up their very own Spikes. She makes it very easy for offensive teams to thrive and sweep through more easily. Destiny Bond is icing on the cake, and allows her to basically kill one of your Pokemon for free, so you're down 5-5 with hazards on your side of the field, putting you at a disadvantage.

The other thing about her is that due to her qualities, she outclasses the other viable "Fast Spikers" in UU- namely Scolipede and Accelgor. These two in particular have a lot of potential to shine in UU, as they do an excellent job at fast-spiking, but Froslass very often leaves them in the shadows, relegating them into RU. Froslass leaves other Spikes a hard time for a teamslot due to her superb Spiking prowess. She does kind of centralize the metagame due to this.

So yeah, I'd totally be open to suspect test of Froslass, and even though a potential ban would mean I would have to dump her, I do see her in some need of a suspect test-in a way.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
There's a couple of things that don't make Froslass as OP as you guys are making it out to be. The main and most important thing is that she's incredibly predictable. Any player above a very basic level will know what Froslass can do, and its pretty easy to play around if you've got a lot of experience.

It's not necessarily free spikes either, there are a couple leads that can anti it before it even gets a chance, most notably Cincinno or Sableye. Froslass can't really be saved and then played lategame very effectively either - as soon as SR are on the field, she won't be able to switch into any hits at all, making her more of fodder than anything.

Finally, you should remember that regardless of their viability, lots of people in the UU metagame run rapid spin. If we assume a semi-experienced player who manages to kill froslass as she gets 2 layers of spikes but doesn't destiny bond, a rapid spin makes all of their work useless and leaves them at an uncomfortable 6-5.

Don't get me wrong, Froslass is amazing. That said, it just doesn't have the versatility nor the usage to be suspected. In fact, I've seen suicide lead Aerodactyl more frequently than Lass recently, for whatever reason.
 

Ace Emerald

Minimal effort with maximum profit
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First, Froslass. I just don't feel like the Spikes support is devastating in battle. Don't get me wrong, it's great support that is very effective in battles, but I just don't think it's overwhelming enough to be broken; she just does her job well. As for Victini, koko was pretty accurate with the mence comparison. Victini has no safe switch, and really that's a problem. Now it does have faults, and those faults may make it possible to play around Victini without the metagame being uncompetitive or unfun. All of that said, this is just a suspect test. I think the question we should all be considering right now is not "Are these Pokemon broken?" but "Is Victini potentially too strong?" and "Does Froslass potentially provide too much/unfair support?" Arguments posted right now aren't for banning the Pokemon, but deciding if they deserve a suspect thread. I'm saving my longer-winded, multi-paragraph responses fulling outlinning the broken-ness (or lack thereof) of the Pokemon for a discussion meant to determine if they are actually broken. As Victini has no safe switch and Froslass provides really easy support, I think they both deserve a thread and test where we can fully discuss the broken-ness of the two Pokemon.
 
If you believe the precedent set by the Chandelure suspect test is a good one, you should want to suspect Victini. This Pokemon truly has no 100% counter, and unlike Chandelure runs much less dubious methods (e.g. doesn't have to resort to Will-o-Wisp to beat Snorlax) to get past its counters. It also has higher speed, making it a more dangerous threat to offensive teams. Chandelure was a very controversial Pokemon at the time of the Suspect Test, as shown by the Suspect Threads, thus I think it set a good precedent, and that Victini should be suspected.

I think we will learn a more about Victini by discussing it in the thread than by using the ladder. It's hard to know how good a threat is when it's not so ubiquitous (like Chandelure was and still is). While Victini is certainly prevalent in the metagame, I say it's not so ubiquitous because its special sets are arguably as good as its physical sets, but aren't represented nearly as well.

I can see Froslass deserving a suspect test. Spikes are excellent in UU regardless of their setter, thanks mostly to the disparity in quality of spinners and spinblockers in the tier. Froslass is tailor-made to be a suicide Spikes lead. Obviously its movepool, typing and Speed are. There are very few ways to prevent it from getting down any Spikes in the first turns of the game -- Cinccino and Beat Up Ambipom being two of these ways -- but you can't and shouldn't fit one of these Pokemon on to all of your teams. STAB Ice-type lets it annihilate two of the would-be preventive measures in Taunt Crobat and Xatu. Froslass is a defining Pokemon of the metagame. I would like to add that it probably shouldn't be suspected on the basis of its bulky Spiker set. This set is still good, but it plays like other defensive Spikers with the exception of being a Ghost, which really isn't a big deal since you'll probably pack a Ghost if you're using a defensive Spiker anyway, and Cofagrigus, Golurk, etc. are fine Pokemon.

I don't think I would vote "ban" for either of these Pokemon, partly in line with what others have said, but they do seem to deserve suspect tests.
 
I've been wondering about Froslass vs Rhyperior as leads. If Froslass lacks Ice Beam, Rhyperior seems as though it can break Froslass' Focus Sash with Rock Blast with ease due to the move's super effective, STAB-boosted nature, and Rhyperior's high attack. Rhyperior can also predict the switch and go for its own rocks, thus ruining Froslass' Focus Sash anyway, unless there is a spinner on the team.

Or... Am I missing something here? Forgive me, I am fairly new to the metagame.
 

kokoloko

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@relaunched: While I do think that the suicide lead set on Froslass is more immediately dangerous, I'm in complete disagreement when you say that the bulky Spikes setter is less effective. For one, it can actually spinblock for itself, as opposed to needing Cofagrigus (I'm saying Cofag cause its the most common) to block for it. This means an entire team slot saved which you can use to cover other needs... like say, Stealth Rock. Stick a Nidoqueen onto the team and now you have the same important defensive coverage on Fighting-types that Cofag gives you, but you also have Stealth Rock. It's listed first in the analysis for a reason--imo it's actually "better" overall. The suicide lead is just easier to use, I guess.

@Shiruba: You're not missing anything. Indeed a lot of people's answer to the suicide Froslass is leading with Rhyperior for that very reason. The thing is, Rhyperior is not exactly reliable. For one, Froslass can just go for Destiny Bond and then you lose your Stealth Rock Pokemon. Then there the whole "a two hit Rock Blast won't kill it" so you run the risk of getting set up on anyway. Then, of course, there's the fact that Froslass is still getting a layer down. Obviously 1 layer in exchange for a whole Pokemon is not usually a good trade for the Froslass player, but they still have that option. Its the Destiny Bond thing that makes it so iffy, though.

Also, just so you guys know, these tests wouldn't happen until early July or later, depending how which drops we get (if any).
 

Metal Sonic

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I'd like for Froslass to be suspected. For one, it is extremely easy for the Froslass to setup two layers of Spikes, this is seen very commonly on the suicide lead set. Next, Froslass is one of the rare support pokemon with (fast) Taunt, preventing pokemon from setting up on it and also nullifying opponent's Hazards setters. Finally, it has the added bonus of spinblocking, which means that you cannot just switch your Blastoise in immediately to Rapid Spin; you actually have to kill the Froslass first. And in the event you get Destiny Bonded on the kill, its one free kill for what was original job to set up hazard layers.

As a bonus, the spinners in UU are few and far between. I'm working on a Cryogonal Rapid Spinner analysis which is a rather strong Froslass counter, however the point is that UU spinners for the most part suck, making Froslass's job.... better in comparison

My last point, in response to kokoloko:
For one, it can actually spinblock for itself, as opposed to needing Cofagrigus (I'm saying Cofag cause its the most common) to block for it. This means an entire team slot saved which you can use to cover other needs... like say, Stealth Rock.

One of the worst pains of fighting a Froslass is that it is viable to run a Double-Ghost team -- as in Froslass + Cofagrigus. Considering that Cofagrigus by itself is already an extremely strong offensive threat(OTR) on its own, it is hardly to say that "an entire team slot saved" because Cofagrigus itself is already a good use for a teamslot in OTR, it's not dead weight as "just a spinblocker"


These 5 or 6 points are why that Froslass needs to be suspected
 

Ernesto

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Well I was told to post here a few days ago, but I had to study and also, frankly, I couldn't be arsed.

I still have mixed feelings about Victini, and I guess that's enough of a reason on its own to suspect it. However, I don't really buy the whole 'doesn't have safew switchins' both because of my experience against it, and because its Specially-based mixed set has enough 4MSS as is. And I know that Slowbro/king takes a ton from CB Bolt Strike, but that isn't gonna stop me from switching it in because, not only can they take anything else except from LO Thunder (which I've never seen, yet I also never saw Glaciate but I still know it's an option), but they also can recover 33% back, so they aren't fully stopped from switching in later—unless Tini keeps spamming CB Bolt Strike, of course, because that's a perfect strategy.
Like I said, it probably deserves a test, but I'm not really uncomfortable with its presence, because I never saw it really wallbreak me, at most it flinched my Rhype to death once with Zen Headbutt. Of course, I'm biased there, but how can I not when I'm asked to speak both from experience and theory? There's the argument that the Victini user doesn't have to predict, as opposed to say, RU Nidoqueen, but frankly it's not at the level of DPP OU Mence, neither in power nor in unpredictability (and yes, I'm saying that from the Pokemon that got the signature moves from the Tao Trio! I must have gone mad)

Moving on, I've been questioning Froslass's existance in UU ever since I first read a discussion about it. I'd honestly never had much problems until then, but soon afterwards I started seen a resurgence of spikestacking offense, from Gabranth's team to a lot of different variations with their Spikes abusers. It's just that there's so many things that benefit from Spikes, ranging from Sharpedo to Calm Mind Raikou. Volt-turn offense can also benefit from it a lot, of course. The fact that all the spinners feel like a waste and Xatu can't beat the most common hazard setters doesn't help this, either. However, since at this particular point we're discussing Froslass, I won't talk about stuff like Custap Crustle, etc.

Now, Froslass as is is actually pretty questionable, outside of Spiking duties. Taunt+Destiny Bond is incredibly annoying because it forces 'mindgames' and 50/50s, but Froslass also has not one, but two abilities that help her do her job. I wasn't here when Snow Cloak was allowed, but I honestly don't understand how Froslass wasn't banned at the time instead of banning Snow Warning. I don't want to get into a debate about it, but knowing now that apparently most people are fine with Stallrein, Aboma, Rotom-F and the whole Hail gang being allowed here, I have to assume that they weren't hated on back then, at least not from the majority. As this post can get deleted if I talk about past bans, because it doesn't have any inherence here, I'm just gonna leave that as a personal irrelevant thought. The point was, both of Froslass's abilities are suspectable because they rely on little skill to use. Cursed Body isn't like many other 30% abilities, because they all need to be hit by a contact move to activate (as far as I'm aware), and Disable is actually a major punishment because, in many cases, you're immediately forfeiting tempo. Snow Cloak everybody knows what it does, and while probably not everyone thinks it deserved to be banned, the fact is, you're not actually taking action by using it, in any case, you're stalling for its activation (and it isn't even as mindlessly clicking Scald, because you're more easily punished by that than by aiming for a miss).


I talked about the usefulness of offensive Spikes and of Froslass as a questionable Poke separately, but truth of the matter is, they usually go together. Using Froslass without Spikes just wouldn't feel right, and I'm assuming it would be an incredible opportunity cost, and while there are many options for offensive spiking, the likely option most people go to is not Custap Crustle (which is nice), it's not Focus Sash Accelgor, it's not Scolipede, it's not Smeargle, it's not freaking Berry Juice Pineco, lol. And why is that, when all the others have atributes over Lass? It's because she combines them with Taunt, Destiny Bond, a good Speed tier, the occasional Thunder Wave which can screw you up if you have something like Scarf Darm + Raikou (luckily she can't have all three moves in one set! Right??), and of course, those abilities, only one of which is usable, but at the same time the one that doesn't even need specific team support.


This is all good and nicely written, and imo that alone would require suspecting. However, I haven't talked about how you prevent Lass from screwing your strategy. First thing that comes to mind is Rapid Spin, of course. The two common spinners here have Foresight, which could technically allow them to spin in Lass's face (assuming she switched in on you), or aim for the KO first. But the most common spikestacking teams use Suicide Lass + another ghost, so that isn't an option if you couldn't beat Froslass first. Still though, I'd say that's a viable way of getting rid of Spikes against non-Suicide Lass sets, in the scenario where you get screwed if you don't spin. Blastoise and Hitmontop that can't forsee Lass coming in are likely to lose unless they get luck(-ier) than her. Now that that's out of the way, there's also Magic Bounce, but the only mon in UU that has it is weak to both of Lass's STABs, so that's an issue. Faster Taunts are limited to Crobat, Azelf, Tornadus, Weavile, Sableye, Ambipom, and I guess Whimsicott if you wanna go there, but before knowing what STAB move Lass is using, only Sableye, Weavile and Ambipom are mostly safe. The latter two can Beat Up for the swift KO (which is also accomplished by Cinccino with Rock Blast), while SpD Sableye can attempt to stall it out with Recover + WoW, only needing 9/10 turns at most if Lass doesn't have Leftovers, so statistically it should win one on one, when you combine that with Foul Play. Other ways I myself used were Rock Blast Rhype (and also Rock Blast Crustle) and Sleep Powder Scarf Rose, simply because they seemed less (is it right to say 'less overly'?) specific to that issue, and saw utility in other stuff, but neither was completely guaranteed—although I prefer 75-25 over 50-50 any day; I didn't do the math but, assuming Lass doesn't D-Bond first turn, I think Rhype has around the same chances to beat 0/0 variants than Sleep Powder to hit, counting miss, crit and multi-hit chances.


Now you might be asking yourself, 'didn't he say that Victini had even less safe switchins? Why is he using that argument against Froslass now?' And yea, I probably seem to be contradicting myself. However, I actually am not, because there's the issue of risk v. reward. And imo, Victini's wallbreaking support, while notable, isn't as rewarding over risky that Froslass's "easy" Spiking support. Because I'm assuming that what's being questioned about Victini's unpredictability is its ability to destroy stuff for something like Scarf Darm to sweep, not actually Vic doing the sweeping. I might be wrong, though. Like I said, Spikes>Wallbreaking (it's not Shadow Tag Goth, you're the one choosing what it KOes, js). Even then, I'm agreeing to both Suspect Tests, so at most I was arguing brokenness of Spikes+Cursed Body+Taunt+D-Bond, not about safe ways to deal with Froslass.

TL;DR because koko asked me to post and he won't read everything above: I agree with both suspects, I don't think Victini is broken and I wouldn't like it being gone either but I won't keep arguing about it, and on the other hand, Froslass is a combination of one of the best support options with broken af abilit(-ies) and Taunt/D-Bond 50/50s all in one, you can choose how you deal with her but she can still screw you up assuming both players are equally good (I mean, I understand Cinccino can KO her, but why would she stay in anyway? Whatever, I guess you can say Cinc did its job by forcing her out)

EDIT: My god I wrote a lot, I'll probably trim it later, don't read if you don't want to, I'll understand, lol.
 
Yeah kokoloko, your point is well made. Ghost-typing really saves you team slots, especially since Cofagrigus is really a mediocre Pokemon outside of its spinblocking (though Metal Sonic seems to disagree). I wasn't saying that bulky Froslass is less effective as you alleged, just that it doesn't seem potentially broken because of the existence of other bulky spikers, but the melding of two roles wasn't an advantage I had thoroughly considered.
 
Froslass as a suspect

Quite frankly, Destiny Bond can be played around with things such as a fast Taunt, Toxic, Thunder Wave, and the almost nonexistent Spite. However, Taunt shuts most of these down, and then Froslass is free to set up Spikes as your opponent shuffles his/her team around, searching for a way to get around it. Xatu is weak to Ice Beam, so it can't freely switch in and out to bounce back Froslass's havoc.

Thus I feel the best ways to handle Froslass are:
Outspeed it with something not weak to Ice Beam and either outright KO it or use Taunt.
Use a Magic Coat lead (I've used Victini as a Magic Coat lead before, and Cofagrigus).

Even though Froslass is one-dimensional and hardly seen doing anything else, it does that function overwhelmingly well, so as of right now, I feel Froslass should be suspected, but that will likely change if we get a gift from OU known as Haxorus, who can just Dual Chop through Froslass's Focus Sash to its death.

I don't think this should turn purely into a suspect thread, so I am going to introduce another topic:

Bulky Defensive Waters



These three Pokemon all have Water STAB and commonly run Scald as an attacking move, and they all have access to Roar. However, they are all slightly different and have different advantages. Let me go through some of them:

Blastoise:
RAPID SPIN is really what sets it apart.

Swampert:
Stealth Rock
STAB Earthquake
Immune to Raikou and Zapdos's main STAB move

Empoleon:
Stealth Rock
Excellent at absorbing hits from Kingdra

I find myself using all three of these guys in different situations, but almost never more than one on the same team for synergy reasons. Which Pokemon do you prefer to use and why?
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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Well...before I reply to the post above, let me get this out:

WOO 100TH POST SWAG COMIN UP IN DA WURLD BABY

...Anyway. I actually like all 3 of those bulky waters, but more often than not I find myself using Swampert the most in the long run. Swampert mainly because most of my teams who need a physical wall and/or a bulky water appreciate the fact Swampert also has access to Stealth Rock. Essentially killing two birds with one stone. I used to use Blastoise the most, but as I got a bit more experienced in UU, I came to realize how much of a dead practice Rapid Spinning is turning out to be. However it's worthy of noting that I've kinda done the same thing to an extent with Blastoise, even though many people will say it sucks in today's metagame, I feel Blastoise does its job pretty nicely.

I also once got away with using a team that had two double bulky waters in both Swampert and Blastoise, and coincidentally every other Pokemon on the team resists Grass (and 2 of them also resisting electric) and it worked to some effect. When one died, I managed to get the defensive capability of the other to help me pull through the rest of the game, and it was great. It was risky, but it did pretty nicely.

Empoleon, though...Kinda wasn't as much a fan of it. It's mainly because it's weak to the main attacking types in UU, Ground, Fighting, and Electric. And insult to injury, Empoleon is often specially defensive if it's running any defensive set, which is not helping it deal with the fact that the majority of most Ground/Fighting moves in UU are physical. I've tried it in the past a number of times and never really got a ton of mileage out of it. Maybe I was playing it wrong, maybe I wasn't as skillful with it. But pound for pound I just like the other two more as bulky waters.

Also isn't it weird how all 3 of them are starters?
 
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